NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Lens Talk => Topic started by: Macro_Cosmos on June 11, 2020, 21:03:53
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I'm loving this lens. Always regretted selling the 20mm F1.8G and never found myself a copy at a reasonable price.
Mine went for a whopping $450 AUD on eBay, which is like $310 USD. Could imagine how sad I was.
Been following this lens ever since it was announced, and Nikon was boasting about how the coma is well corrected. Saw some early reviews and I was already sold. Then comes a silly virus. It has been several months here in Sydney for the lens to show up at very high prices, and it's still out of stock pretty much nation wide.
So I decided to take Steve Perry's advice and called up several camera stores. I found one listed on ebay by some obscure "store" located in a mountain, which however is listed as an official Nikon distributor. Rang up the guy through a number I found through my search engine. The seller was incredibly nice, gave me the expected discount of 10% since we're cutting ebay out, he also offered me free express postage. Somehow he messed up the dedicated coupon, but let it go anyway even after I asked about it. I ended up paying $1500 AUD (US$1033) for the lens shipped, it was also the last copy! Destiny I guess.
This is such a lovely lens. It's really big, a lot larger and heavier than the 20mm F/1.8G. The G version feels like a lens cap when coupled with a D-SLR. The balance of the S-line version on my Z6 is almost perfect.
Thanks to the Queen, the lens landed on Tuesday rather than Monday. I headed out and straight up Sydney Tower to get some shots. Lots of annoying but necessary measures to prevent that silly virus from spreading, I salute the workers. Thankfully, the venue isn't nearly as packed as usual. I suppose the time slot system worked out nicely.
Anyhow, enough (unnecessary) backstory, here's the 2 processed shots. I'm no landscape/cityscape expert, but I quite like the results. Even through the thick glass and my light pollution filter, the lens did really well. My 24mm PC-E would have been devastated. I did take a sample photo to see if the lens lives up to Nikon's claim of coma suppression, but I won't include them. The photo was shot through thick glass and a filter, not a good test. However, from what I can see, the performance is incredible. Coma levels are very well controlled, the 20mm G version is unfortunately no match here, from my experience. No geese or ducks flying around the edges.
1600px photos. Visit my flickr for the usual stuff I do (microscopy)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mcmicroscopy/with/49995737751/
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49995122003_5081db535e_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49995737751_c617ea0265_h.jpg)
Here's a 100%, I did downscale to 12MP.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49995122003_8d3d98e9c6_o.jpg
And here's the 24mm PC-E. Not apples to apples, body is a D810 too.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48481892896_0f1ce79645_o.jpg
You can see how well the 20mm S-line holds up, yet how detrimental the thick glass is to both lenses. There's some weirdness that becomes obvious when zoomed in.
I have several more to edit. I also plan on exploiting the lens' ability to focus very close to produce some macro-landscape like photos. When the rain stops and moon hides, I'll be heading out into some no-where places away from the biggest light polluter in the continent and enjoy from astrolandscapes fun! Love to see how the coma is controlled. I'll keep this post updated. :D :D
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Impressive, especially given the window glass.
You have tempted me in respect of the 20mm S. ;D
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The review at camera labs is generally positive but they like the Sony lens better. Sample variation, or is the the Nikkor designed with different goals?
But it's a bit soft in the FX corners especially at longer distances like landscape shots and longitudinal CAs occasionally rear their ugly head. Sony's FE 20mm f1.8 GM is proof that a modern lens design can be smaller and produce better corner sharpness and less loCA
https://www.cameralabs.com/nikon-z-20mm-f1-8-s-review/
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Beautiful! Reminds me of a great time last year 8)
I do prefer the first one.This lens is high on my GAS.
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The review at camera labs is generally positive but they like the Sony lens better. Sample variation, or is the the Nikkor designed with different goals?
https://www.cameralabs.com/nikon-z-20mm-f1-8-s-review/
Not sure how their test is done, did the author use an a7r4? 60MP is considerably more than 45, however Kasson's tests show that the Sony is a bit sharper in the middle wide open. This won't affect shooting though, no one take photos of Siemens stars and similar targets all the time.
https://blog.kasson.com/nikon-z6-7/sony-20-1-8-g-20-1-8-nikkor-s-on-nikon-z7/
Looking at Cameralabs' review for both lenses, the Nikon has better coma control. CA indeed looks ugly, I'll see if I can reproduce those results.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49997256143_46b973ef04_h.jpg)
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:P Astro time, stayed in a graveyard all night!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50012831742_db6b2ff97d_h.jpg)
The (lack of) coma performance of this lens is absolutely stunning, it's orders above Nikon's G version. Wasn't afraid to open up that iris and let all the light and other spooky stuff in.
Haida light pollution filter, 10 images stacked for the sky.
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Some pretty amazing pics!
I’m waiting for Nikon’s summer discount to get this lens. :)
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I guess these are the first Sydney pictures where I cannot consciously see the opara house ;-)
I love the 1.8/20G and have not though about the S-Version yet --- good to know it is a great option ...
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It is in the first reply, second image.
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I guess these are the first Sydney pictures where I cannot consciously see the opara house ;-)
I love the 1.8/20G and have not though about the S-Version yet --- good to know it is a great option ...
You can see the back in the second image ;D
Graveyard pic was outside of (greater) Sydney already.
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Indeed the stars look really well depicted but the overall image looks a bit strange, like a composite of different layers of focus stacking
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"... 60MP is considerably more than 45 ..." really ?? The difference is just 15% (planar).
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Indeed the stars look really well depicted but the overall image looks a bit strange, like a composite of different layers of focus stacking
Yep, there's obvious banding. I ticked vignette removal and PS somehow desaturated everything. Unticking it shows the weird banding. It was a vertical shot and I just suck at making panoramas. Should have brought a nodal rail. Next time I'll tick in-camera corrections too, C1 doesn't have the necessary profiles built in.
I decided to fix the vignetting manually and did a new stitch, the banding seems to be fixed... time to re-process it. Hopefully it looks better.
"... 60MP is considerably more than 45 ..." really ?? The difference is just 15% (planar).
15% is a lot imo. However the 20GM adapted to the Z7 displays consistent results. Conclusive but not too practical, no one shoot star targets all day wide open.
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I don't have much experience of wide angles, but am quite struck by these images,
plus some of the dramatic processing
...stayed in a graveyard all night!
Wasn't afraid to open up that iris and let all the light and other spooky stuff in.
I love this
Birna, do we need a new area of NG to cover energy sources outside the realm of the visible, IR and UV spectrum?
:P
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Fixing vignetting in post before exporting to tiff files for stitching seems to do the trick. Looks more natural now, no more banding!
20S vignetting is quite drastic wide open. It's expected and did cause me some stitching problems.
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2 more finished baking! I only took multiple exposures of the sky for stacking. When panorama is created, there's visible zones of noise that suddenly disappear... oh what an obvious problem that I didn't think through when shooting... haha
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50014729233_667462f24d_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50017731948_b1660733e5_h.jpg)
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The one with the lone tree in the center is ...wow!
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50023204253_bd8b5549ba_b.jpg)
Really loving the lack of coma! Next week's trip is planned too... I'm looking forward to it!
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Agree, wow...
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Do you have a link to something like "making star images for dummies"?
I am interesting in learning a bit about the technique without having equipment that can trace the stars (I assume that the images you show are shot just with a steady setup?).
You talk about stacked images. I want to learn how images are stacked and how you prevent that the stars "moves" when using a steady setup.
It is difficult to stop rotation of earth just for a short moment? :-)
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These are truly amazing results!
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Do you have a link to something like "making star images for dummies"?
I am interesting in learning a bit about the technique without having equipment that can trace the stars (I assume that the images you show are shot just with a steady setup?).
You talk about stacked images. I want to learn how images are stacked and how you prevent that the stars "moves" when using a steady setup.
It is difficult to stop rotation of earth just for a short moment? :-)
Do a search here there are people very experienced in Astro photography and in stacking
Also check here there are a lot of good articles about
https://photographylife.com/gsearch?q=Star+photography (https://photographylife.com/gsearch?q=Star+photography)
Very nice photos, I see S line lens are very promising
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Ok.....I have read a little bit. It seems focus stacking in star-images is to get foreground sharp and exposed correctly and not so much for "noise cancellation" of the sky.
It seems 20 sec. exposure is about the limit if star trails should be avoided.
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I´ll guess the minimum exposure time to avoid star trails is linked to focal length?
Impressive. Have never tried myself. It doesn't look easy at all. The results are worth the work whatever it may be.
Thanks for sharing it!
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Great thread, interesting info and beautiful images. Thanks for sharing on NG.
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I´ll guess the minimum exposure time to avoid star trails is linked to focal length?
Impressive. Have never tried myself. It doesn't look easy at all. The results are worth the work whatever it may be.
Thanks for sharing it!
Yes, there is a rule saying 500/focal length .....so a 20 mm gives about 25 sec. and a 180 mm only 2-3 sec. I was thinking of wide angle lenses.
I think when the Nikkor 180/2.8 MF was released it was quite popular for astrophotography as the lens is well corrected wide open. Also nice to have a fixed infinity focus for that purpose.
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I´ll guess the minimum exposure time to avoid star trails is linked to focal length?
Impressive. Have never tried myself. It doesn't look easy at all. The results are worth the work whatever it may be.
Thanks for sharing it!
Maximum for 20mm would be 20 seconds, there's still a tiny amount of observable tracing. Usually 15 seconds gives the best results.
Winder lenses such as the popular Samyang 14mm F2.8 can do 30 seconds, but you'd still see trailing. 25 seconds is my suggestion.
It's usually cheaper to invest in a small star tracker and couple it with a moderately wide lens, such as a 24 or 35mm at F2 or 2.8 than to just buy a fast wide angle that likely has some pretty annoying coma wide open.
Do you have a link to something like "making star images for dummies"?
I am interesting in learning a bit about the technique without having equipment that can trace the stars (I assume that the images you show are shot just with a steady setup?).
You talk about stacked images. I want to learn how images are stacked and how you prevent that the stars "moves" when using a steady setup.
It is difficult to stop rotation of earth just for a short moment? :-)
I don't really have a link where I learned my techniques from, it's mostly self-taught and studying online photos. My setup is very steady, heavy duty RRS tripod and a big ballhead, heavy but it's required. The images up until now were shot in the Southern Highlands of NSW, it gets really windy at night, there's actually some shake if you look very closely. It's better to hold the tripod down. I do carry 1L of hot water during these trips (Winter here), so my hiking bag actually makes a decent counter-weight.
Exposure time is a matter of focal length. 20mm here, so about 20 seconds would be pushing it. I usually do 15 seconds. By the 500 or 600 rule, it can be longer but that rule is a very flawed basis for exposure time.
12mm 30s
14mm 25s
20mm 15-20s
24mmm 15s
35mm ~5-8s
Above: Use a tracker
For stacking, I didn't use focus stacking. I'm talking about image stacking to reduce noise. The photos were shot at ISO3200 or 6400, however you can see the sky looks clean, looks like an ISO400 or lower shot. That's because I blended multiple exposures and stacked them to reduce noise. The process is simple in photoshop:
- Files > scripts > load files into stack > attempt to align
- Check result, good? Convert to smart object. Bad? Align manually
- Layers > smart objects > stacking mode > median
Doing so also removes any trailing left by planes and lucky meteorites/shootings stars that you caught. Planes aren't a problem now due to the virus. For the meteors, I just paint them in using masks.
Sometimes using a mask to remove the foreground helps with automatic alignment. If photoshop is mean, just zoom in like 400% and do it manually, it's not too bad.
Sometimes focus stacking will be required if the foreground is too soft despite the lens being at infinity.
Here's a good channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-KNiVo4X76cJIMphH1lEdA
Here's some more information on exposure stacking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rydg7JGTAbw&t=183s
It's more complicated if you want to do panoramas and/or stack the foreground to reduce noise as well. I just ordered some parts to make a panorama setup so I can do better vertical stitches.
I'll post a photo of my equipment later today.
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Ok.....I will look at the youtubes.......
Just a quick question. If you stack many pictures to reduce noise and you expose each 15-20 sec then stars "moves" a bit from frame to frame.
Is the stacking software able to align all these images so stars appears as single stars?
I can see that from your images but just if I have understood it correct that if you have 16 images in the stack then the eposure of last image is about 16 x 20 sec. later.....or so.....?
My setup is a medium size carbon Gitzo tripod (old one) with only baseplate (center column removed) and head is a Foba Super Miniball (I agreed with myself that this was the most heavy I wanted to carry in the field).
I have a large Graf Studioball but it requires a tripod with larger baseplate. Both heads are with Arca Swiss mount. The Graf ball-head is about 2 kg alone.....so not so transportable. Probably the reason they call it a Studioball. Don't know if the brand exist anymore.....but it is good quality.....so it may be used in the future but I will try first with the Foba setup. My only real wide angle lens for DX is the old Nikkor 12-24 DX zoom. My camera is a Z50.
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Thank you for all the information
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Yes, and the last link about stacking to reduce noise gives the answer to my last question.
It requires a master degree in Photoshop. Not much I can do using NX-D :-)
But I can try just doing a single image and see what I get out of that.
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Ok.....I will look at the youtubes.......
Just a quick question. If you stack many pictures to reduce noise and you expose each 15-20 sec then stars "moves" a bit from frame to frame.
Is the stacking software able to align all these images so stars appears as single stars?
I can see that from your images but just if I have understood it correct that if you have 16 images in the stack then the eposure of last image is about 16 x 20 sec. later.....or so.....?
My setup is a medium size carbon Gitzo tripod (old one) with only baseplate (center column removed) and head is a Foba Super Miniball (I agreed with myself that this was the most heavy I wanted to carry in the field).
I have a large Graf Studioball but it requires a tripod with larger baseplate. Both heads are with Arca Swiss mount. The Graf ball-head is about 2 kg alone.....so not so transportable. Probably the reason they call it a Studioball. Don't know if the brand exist anymore.....but it is good quality.....so it may be used in the future but I will try first with the Foba setup. My only real wide angle lens for DX is the old Nikkor 12-24 DX zoom. My camera is a Z50.
Yeah they will move, hence you must tick auto-align.
Usually, PS does a good job in aligning. Sometimes it fails, which you have to do yourself. It's actually really easy and with experience, you'd be able to manually align many frames in minutes.
The images used will all have the same settings. It's not that important but it's more consistent.
Stacking won't transform into increased exposure time. Stacking 15 frames of 20sec exposures doesn't make it one frame of 300 seconds. If that's the case, trackers will be kind of pointless for astrolandscapes. Stacking lowers the ISO. The amount depends on the sensor and the such, so there is no formula. Stacking 20 frames of 15 seconds gives an ISO of... I'd say 500 on my Z6. Noise is all gone of course.
Longer exposures give you more stars as the sensor is able to pick up fainter ones. Yields higher image quality, you can use lower ISO, but you will see more hot pixels which is why dark frame stacking to subtract the hot pixels is important.
Here's what 3 minutes looks like:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7921/46341760424_8eb4776dfe_b.jpg)
Photo by a mate in SA: https://www.flickr.com/photos/130286344@N07/46341760424/in/dateposted/
Way more stars and detail.
I've never actually seen someone with the foba mini-superball before, it's expensive and looks pretty nice. It should work out nicely. Z50 with the 12-25mm would work out very nicely. You will be able to do 15-20 seconds. The Z50 lacks a shutter release input, but you can always use that bluetooth button or exposure delay mode which is what I do, can't be bothered to scuff around in the dark and expose my camera's port to humidity (it's winter here).
You can get PS at like $10 a month, it's bundled with lightroom. There's some very good astro freeware that does arguably a better job, I've yet to try out any though.
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Thank you very much for the explanation. I will try it out using Z50 with either 12-24/4 or the 16-50 kit lens. It is 3.5 at 16mm. Kit lens is very light weight and should be well corrected wide open so this will be a good test of the lens.
The Foba Super mini is probably too expensive. I got it at a reasonable price many years ago. It works well with medium weight lenses and it can also support my old AF 300/2.8.
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The lone tree images works very nice! Thanks for sharing ;)
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The lone tree images works very nice! Thanks for sharing ;)
Thanks! I also fixed the gravestone one where there was obvious banding due to panorama stitching.
I noticed that the pic was no longer there, so fixed that too.
PS' vignetting correction doesn't seem to do a good job. For anyone using this lens wide open, +2 vignetting in capture one fixes the dark corners, LR has a similar feature.