NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => What the Nerds Do => Topic started by: richardHaw on May 05, 2020, 12:00:02
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https://richardhaw.com/2020/05/05/repair-nikon-f-part-1/
finally :o :o :o
after this it's the F2 and I'm done! ::)
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https://richardhaw.com/2020/05/05/repair-nikon-f-part-1/
finally :o :o :o
after this it's the F2 and I'm done! ::)
Liked your article, I have 59 Nikon F bodies, either working models or self-repaired. I haven't tested shutter accuracy [short times], I don't use them to expose film anyway...
I test shutter times from 1/8" to 1" by comparing to a digital camera in M mode, it's easy to see if timings are on the short or long side.
I have invented an evaluation system of the period correctness of Nikon F variations, it's called the Frankenstein Level
Basically when I inspect a "new" old Nikon F, I look for period correctness of the various components, and add a +1 for every non-period correct piece.
Starting from zero, the Frankenstein Level can reach beyond +20, which would mean a camera assembled with random pieces not corresponding at all to the number plate period.
Ideally a completely period correct camera will have a Frankenstein level of 0 (or +1 for borderline models)
I use the parts classification from Richard de Stoutz' site [typology: https://www.destoutz.ch/nikon_f_typology.html (https://www.destoutz.ch/nikon_f_typology.html) ], a real gold mine for Nikon F enthusiasts!
Attached: one Nikon F with EP logo (see rewind mechanism), and very dry leatherette, before doing anything. Approximate period jul 1960-jan 1961. Mirror box is period correct, not allowing mounting of the T/FT/FTn prism, only the F type prisms (button switch or flag switch) are allowed.
Ciao from Massimo
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Thank you! Very valuable both of you ;D Good luck on the F2 ;) will be waiting patiently 8)
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Thank you! Very valuable both of you ;D Good luck on the F2 ;) will be waiting patiently 8)
Since you like it, I'll add a few notes.
What I described above is Frankenstein Level v.1, a simplified version of version 2.
Version 1 was giving an excessively compressed scale. When I developed version 2, the period incorrect items are given a +5 value, and period correct items a -1 value.
I start from 23 (instead of from 0, which was version 1)
I have 23 criteria, if they all pass I reach Frankenstein Level 0 ( = perfectly correct camera)
Even if I have only 2-3 incorrect pieces, the Frankenstein level rises rapidly (to 10 or 15 in those cases).
There are more criteria to account for, removable pieces don't count for Frankenstein evaluation (but if present and correct, they will award a -1)
The real TOP Frankenstein camera will have a +110 evaluation
Removable pieces are film back, prism, focussing screen, and lens. This is why you can reach +110 maximum!
BTW, the Nikon F sn 6402999 has a Frankenstein level of 2. Not zero, because it has no prism and no lens. The rest is perfect. Could reach a FS level of 0 by adding correct pieces.
The Frankenstein evaluation is done by using an automated formula on an Excel sheet. I insert my observations into the sheet, the number is green if it's correct by the de Stoutz typology, it's pink if it's correct by the mxbianco typology (which I call a deStoutz extension, extending Richard's own findings with my personal findings), and it's red if it's incorrect.
Green and Pink columns give a -1 contribution each, red columns give a +5 contribution. The formula simply counts the cells by colour, and also evaluates the Best F'stein attainable
[sometimes there's no time to take a camera apart -some features require a partial dismantling-]
On a side note, when disassembling a Nikon F, it's nice to take note of the TWO body casting numbers, one engraved on the front apron upper R corner with a sharp object, and the other printed with yellowish ink in the back, normally on the side where the rewind lever is placed. But you have to remove part of the casing to read them. Normally the body casting #s correspond, but in some instances de Stoutz has found them to differ, probably a sign of a camera that has been repaired, with parts from two different cameras. In the disassembly by Richard Haw, you can see the rear body casting # (one before the lastpicture, only first 3 digits visible: 927x, last digit is maybe a 3)
Ciao from Massimo
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Thank you for the further details ;)
Interesting grading ;D Mint Frankenstein F2 Titan Grade 0 Please 8)
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i have seen many franken F's :o :o :o
some are results of previous repairs ::)
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Many years ago in another life, whilst in Singapore I tried to but a Nikon F + 55mm f2, I needed the dealer to down 25 S$, he wouldn’t do it, so I ended up buying a Pentax SV and 55mm Takamur, the camera and lens later swapped for a vacuum cleaner, the lens had rusty IRIS blades!
The wife was pleased, I wasn’t!
Sorry the anecdote sprang to mind
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Many years ago in another life, whilst in Singapore I tried to but a Nikon F + 55mm f2, I needed the dealer to down 25 S$, he wouldn’t do it, so I ended up buying a Pentax SV and 55mm Takamur, the camera and lens later swapped for a vacuum cleaner, the lens had rusty IRIS blades!
The wife was pleased, I wasn’t!
Sorry the anecdote sprang to mind
:o :o :o
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Pleasing your wives can have ramifications .... And dangerous.
The 55 must have been the 55 f/1.2 by the way. No such animal as an f/2 version of any 55mm in the Nikon line-up.
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Birna, it was a loooooong time ago, it was as I thought, it was a 55, but it could have been a 50mm! And it might have also been an f1.8! Super Takamur. Of course that is a Pentax lens!
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I this is also the place for F2s (otherwise remove), my last F2 AS, bought new in 1978 with MD2 motor and 20mm f/3.5 UD.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49698043561_1dd3ce0718_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iHDsU2)
_6104417-Modifier.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2iHDsU2)
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Pleasing your wives can have ramifications .... And dangerous.
The 55 must have been the 55 f/1.2 by the way. No such animal as an f/2 version of any 55mm in the Nikon line-up.
Forget Nikon lenses, instead think Pentax Takamur
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I this is also the place for F2s (otherwise remove), my last F2 AS, bought new in 1978 with MD2 motor and 20mm f/3.5 UD.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49698043561_1dd3ce0718_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iHDsU2)
_6104417-Modifier.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2iHDsU2)
Was it already AI converted out of the box, or did you have it converted later?
Ciao from Massimo
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Was it already AI converted out of the box, or did you have it converted later?
Ciao from Massimo
Hello Massimo. I had it converted later, by Nikon. ;) Take care. Christian.
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I love the mighty F, and have four, but I'm likely the opposite of mxbianco and Mr. Destoutz (though I find his website fun). Mine are all users, and at least one is an utter Franken-F, courtesy of KEH's "as is" sale: a latish black body, which came without prism, screen, lens, or back. It's really beat up, with chips where the back was inserted, and shows signs of having been sent back for repair at a date late enough to have gotten anachronistic reinforced lugs and an "Apollo" style winder. It now has the chrome FTn prism, back and screen off another similarly late F that ingested a fatal dose of moisture. If you were to go by sound alone you'd swear the thing was new. It sounds better than any of my others. I'm guessing some photojournalist used this one and had it professionally refurbished.
One of my others is a black body plain prism 65xxxx one with a bad flash contact, but otherwise working though a bit shabby, which I got from a $5.00 bin at a now defunct store. I put a lens on and took a roll. My kind of collection! I could probably fix the flash contact, as I know there's miles of room in there, but haven't bothered.
I should mention that I opened up and partly disposed of parts from the fatally corroded F mentioned above, and holy ****! What beautiful construction. I mean, aside from details like the microscopic ball bearings and functional layout, every part of this, whether it needs it or not, appears to have been finished as if it were on the front of the camera. I get the impression that once upon a time, at least, the Nikon folks were like some other engineers we rarely now see, who did things not because they had to but because they ought to.
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Most of my Nikon Fs too were "for parts" or "as is" models, which were brought back to life and operativity, with an eye on period correctness of the parts used to restore the cameras themselves.
Some collectors do collect MINT models that have never been used and have no scratches whatsoever, I have no interest in those, I prefer models which have HAD A LIFE, maybe the social security number of previous owner engraved on the back, or an astronomy club address (for example on Questar modified models). One of my motor drive models is marked Chicago Tribune.
I looked up my notes, I was wrong: I don't have 59 Nikon Fs, they are 60...
Ciao from Massimo
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I love the mighty F, and have four, but I'm likely the opposite of mxbianco and Mr. Destoutz (though I find his website fun). Mine are all users, and at least one is an utter Franken-F, courtesy of KEH's "as is" sale: a latish black body, which came without prism, screen, lens, or back. It's really beat up, with chips where the back was inserted, and shows signs of having been sent back for repair at a date late enough to have gotten anachronistic reinforced lugs and an "Apollo" style winder. It now has the chrome FTn prism, back and screen off another similarly late F that ingested a fatal dose of moisture. If you were to go by sound alone you'd swear the thing was new. It sounds better than any of my others. I'm guessing some photojournalist used this one and had it professionally refurbished.
One of my others is a black body plain prism 65xxxx one with a bad flash contact, but otherwise working though a bit shabby, which I got from a $5.00 bin at a now defunct store. I put a lens on and took a roll. My kind of collection! I could probably fix the flash contact, as I know there's miles of room in there, but haven't bothered.
I should mention that I opened up and partly disposed of parts from the fatally corroded F mentioned above, and holy ****! What beautiful construction. I mean, aside from details like the microscopic ball bearings and functional layout, every part of this, whether it needs it or not, appears to have been finished as if it were on the front of the camera. I get the impression that once upon a time, at least, the Nikon folks were like some other engineers we rarely now see, who did things not because they had to but because they ought to.
somebody admonished me for my Canon 7 articles calling that camera dinky, etc. Well, it's not a Nikon :o :o :o
Nikons were built to a different standards ::)
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https://richardhaw.com/2020/05/17/repair-nikon-f-part-2/
part 2 :o :o :o
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How do you wipe the mirror with e.g. alcohol?
I have only once tried to clean a mirror by first blowing with air and then use a very soft brush. But I found out that the brush had left very fine traces / scratches. Not something that I could see in the viewfinder but since then I have only used a blower.
If an old Nikon-F can't hold the mirror at the T-setting but flips back when trigger is released (like B-setting). Do you know what could cause this? probably something that would cause a disassemble to fix I guess.
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Forget Nikon lenses, instead think Pentax Takamur
This great lens, the Asahi Opt. Co. Super-Takumar 55mm f/1.8 here on the Nikon Z6
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How do you wipe the mirror with e.g. alcohol?
I have only once tried to clean a mirror by first blowing with air and then use a very soft brush. But I found out that the brush had left very fine traces / scratches. Not something that I could see in the viewfinder but since then I have only used a blower.
If an old Nikon-F can't hold the mirror at the T-setting but flips back when trigger is released (like B-setting). Do you know what could cause this? probably something that would cause a disassemble to fix I guess.
Some stains will only react with naphtha :o :o :o
or your breath ::)
the T setting can be tricky to adjust on an F because it's covered, it's not an easy task to fix if the position of the stand is off by a lot
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The mirror flips back faster on B-setting than on T-setting so I think it is very close to be able to hold the mirror on T-setting. I have no idea how the T-settings is made mechanically in camera. Not something I would do myself even if I may have the repair manual from Nikon. I don't use the camera but I like to have my old equipment in working order :-)
It is not no. 6400001 …...but a high 64xxxxx ...but always fun to have a 64xxxxx body.
Is naphtha same as lighter fluid?
When naphtha is applied to mirror do you just use air to blow it clean? …..you don't wipe mirror with micro fiber or alike?
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yes, its lighter fluid. I just wipe it with lens tissue. be careful as you may scratch it :o :o :o
some of the causes for your problem:
- incorrect tension for the shutter
- incorrect adjustment of the slow lever arm
- unlikely, the position of the stand for T
2 is most likely ::)
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Generally I prefer isopropyl alcohol.
It's what we use in IT to clean the mirrors and glass surfaces of scanners and photocopiers. (and fingerprints from LCD screens, too)
Pure ispopropyl alcohol leaves no stains when evaporating, safer for humans than methanol.
I buy it in 1-liter bottles or 5-liter tanks.
Ciao from Massimo
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yes, its lighter fluid. I just wipe it with lens tissue. be careful as you may scratch it :o :o :o
some of the causes for your problem:
- incorrect tension for the shutter
- incorrect adjustment of the slow lever arm
- unlikely, the position of the stand for T
2 is most likely ::)
Is 299/299A the slow lever arm in this exploded view?
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...
It is not no. 6400001 …...but a high 64xxxxx ...but always fun to have a 64xxxxx body.
These are my lowest and highest numbered Fs, and Nikon's highest documented Nikon F (-not mine- aside from spare part number plates)
Transitional models are interesting too, for example the Red Dot series when they changed the Photomic finder couplings, and models with a red dot are models that had been factory converted to be compatible with the new Photomic finder. Or the transition to the Apollo series.
I have a non-Apollo with a very high serial number, very low Frankenstein level (that is correct in all pieces with respect to the non-Apollo series, not an Apollo to which an old winding lever was applied). My sample is numbered 7428513 (non-Apollo). There exists a higher numbered non-Apollo (#7452434), but it's a Frankenstein!
I also have a very low serial # Apollo F (very low Frankenstein too): #7318562 (lowest documented Apollo existing)
Ciao from Massimo
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Why does my Nikon F has such a high number but still all metal winding lever and "Nippon Kogaku" branded?
Your has lower number but "Nikon" branded and with plastic on winding lever...….strange…..
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Why does my Nikon F has such a high number but still all metal winding lever and "Nippon Kogaku" branded?
Your has lower number but "Nikon" branded and with plastic on winding lever...….strange…..
Please look again, I posted three photos:
#6404226, approximate production date march 1959 to jan 1960. I assure you this is a Nippon Kogaku too
(your model is marked 6471774, which is 67458 higher than mine; production date approx. jun to dec 1962)
They made the switch from Nippon Kogaku to Nikon logo in july 1966, around serial # 676xxxx, 200000 cameras later
#7421834, approximate production date april to july 1973. This is 950 thousand cameras later! (not really, there is a gap between 6602xxx and 6700001, so only 940K cameras later )
and another model which is not mine, and does not enter this discussion.
There's at least 6 types of frame advance lever (maybe more, De Stoutz is continuing his research), the oldest cameras have a hollow underside. Your sample appears to have a type 3 frame advance lever, with a hollow underside lever (see https://www.destoutz.ch/typ_wind-levers.html (https://www.destoutz.ch/typ_wind-levers.html)) and a straight tip (vs types 2 and 4, which have a diagonal tip). Your sample is a borderline model with respect to the frame advance lever, there is an overlap between type 3 and type 4 advance lever models.
According to De Stoutz, the highest numbered model with a type 3 advance lever is #6474376, and the lowest numbered model with a type 4 advance lever is #6473326
According to myself (De Stoutz extensions), the highest numbered model with a type 3 advance lever is #6474793 (see attached photo), and the lowest numbered model with a type 4 advance lever is #6466982 (see attached photo).
In my Nikon F photo archive, I have a Nikon F with a serial # that's very close to yours, only 16 numbers lower. See attached photo of #6471758. Robertscamera sold it approximately 5 years ago. Advance lever-wise, it's a De Stoutz' extension (type 4, lower than De Stoutz' lowest, but not the lowest)
I own two Nikon Fs which are only 11 numbers apart, and two more which are 19 numbers apart. Very different stories for all four cameras, bought from different persons in different countries, and then reunited...
Ciao from Massimo
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Ok.....now I see…..74xxxxx and not 64xxxxx.
I looked at my lever (6471774). I is not solid......I was sure it was solid so good I checked :-) ) It came with a Photomic but that did not look that pretty so I found a Nippon Kogaku finder for it. The Photomic needs some restoration. It is the one with the "eye" and on/off lever with red dot and square viewfinder. I don't know if it is time typical for the body (1962). I read that there was a tele attachment for the "eye" …..selenium cell?
I like the simple prism finder best. But I find a nice F-prism finder quite expensive.
Once it was my goal to get a chrome F-body in each serial number serie. I know that in one of the 6xxxxxx number serie not many was produced and I missed such a body long time ago at a very reasonable price (normal F-body price level so maybe they are not priced higher and I can still get one).
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This is how the lever looks on my high number 64xxxxx body...….non-solid.
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And the Photomic I have is the same as on your 6466xxx body.....so probably time typical for my body also.
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I have heavily modified my previous message, adding a few photos and serial # considerations. Your model is a borderline model (on the advance lever point of view), that is there are perfectly period correct samples with type 3 lever (hollow, your sample), coexisting with other perfectly period correct samples with type 4 lever (the one in the photo only 16 numbers away from yours!).
I corrected my previous message so there's no ambiguity.
So far the overlap occurs between 6466982 and 6474793 (about 8000 samples), where there is evidence of both types of advance lever. As they were running out of spare parts from type 3, in some assembly lines they must have been given already the type 4 advance lever.
The attachment that was put on the selenium cell was in fact a mini tele extension, allowing for a more "spot" measuring of exposure when using telephoto lenses. Many Photomics come without that part, it unscrewed and got lost quite easily! That tele extender was present in the first two Photomics: Flag type (yours), and Button type. See page https://www.destoutz.ch/typ_photomic_switch.html (https://www.destoutz.ch/typ_photomic_switch.html).
The flag type is correct up to the end of 1962 Probably the button type is the more period correct type for 1963-onwards. You have overlaps there too. See the De Stoutz collection for complete cameras. The first one he has with a button type Photomic is #6501758.
Ciao from Massimo
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Interesting that they are so close. Your 6471xxx has some black parts! ….a kind of "panda" model? ….special order like black paint S2 and S3?
I looked at my flag type photomic and it is not that "damaged". In fact no real "dings" but some paint damage and a loose "cover". I guess I could peel it off and clean it and then glue it using contact glue (maybe diluted?) or a shellac type glue which was used in the really old days for gluing leather. But this is not leather so probably contact glue is best.
I have learned from collectors that I should never try to paint it but let it stay with patina..... :-)
It can also look quite good if it is brass below and it is worn by use and not with abuse. So if it get a black paint S2 I will not paint it!
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I looked at my F-body serial numbers to see if there was a low number in a serie. The 70xxxxx was quite low.
Historical this F-body is interesting as the label below tells it is from a hospital here in DK. It would have been "fun" to look at the images this body has shot when it was in service.....or maybe not depending what it was used for.
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Interesting that they are so close. Your 6471xxx has some black parts! ….a kind of "panda" model? ….special order like black paint S2 and S3?
Actually specimen #6471xxx is not mine, it is only in my Nikon F photo database. You spotted correctly a Frankenstein piece from a black body transplanted onto a chrome body! Some people would do any kind of bad things! If it were of any interest to restore it, maybe because one has a twin sister camera with an adjacent serial # (or a camera differing only by one digit, say 6471xxx and 6571xxx), a donor for the correct piece has to be found... Such couples are of greater interest to collectors, better than a single anonymous camera.
I have several low numbered cameras:
Two 640xxxx
Five 641xxxx
Three 642xxxx
NO 643xxxx
One 644xxxx
Two 645xxxx
Two 646xxxx
Two 647xxxx
and then several from 653, 654, 656, 658, 659, 660, and so on. 6 Red Dots so far.
It's still a long way to collect one sample for each group of 10000 cameras. I would have to have more than 120 cameras, but then there is not much difference between a 708xxx a 709xxx and a 710xxx, so I went another direction, searching for models with unique features (such as the lowest existing Apollo, or Questar converted cameras, or T models, or EP models, ...)
Ciao from Massimo
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i have a few red dots...all of them from the junk box :o :o :o
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Did they put a red dot on existing top cover after the modification or is it a new top cover?
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i have a few red dots...all of them from the junk box :o :o :o
I see that serial # is in Matthew Lin's list already (from the end of 2018-beginning 2019). Did you report him, or was it already in list when you found it in the trash?
BTW, I bought three of my red dots on eBay from unknowing sellers...
For MEPER: In factory modifications they created a red enamel filled dot following strict specifications of size, distance from the serial number, and alignment with the serial #. Knowing the rules, it is easy to spot fakes or suspects. Also the quality of the red dot conversion can be another hint to a fake (poor quality=fake almost certainly). I have a borderline sample, one with a professional-grade red dot conversion, and its red dot with the right size and colour, but it isn't aligned with the base of the serial #, and a little too close to the serial. See attached photo. It is also outside the usual range of RedDot conversions (657xxxx-660xxxx), Maybe the Nikon guy punched the dot in the wrong spot and then realized it was too late to punch in the correct spot?
For more info on RedDot, see http://www.matthewlin.com/MyNikon/RedDot/RedDot.htm (http://www.matthewlin.com/MyNikon/RedDot/RedDot.htm)
Ciao from Massimo
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Mathew follows my fb page so i suppose he sees my red dot postings :o :o :o
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https://richardhaw.com/2020/05/24/repair-nikon-f-part-3/
part 3 :o :o :o
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I watched the video of lubricating the slow speed mechanism.
Have you tried if some kind of dry lubricant would work?
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I watched the video of lubricating the slow speed mechanism.
Have you tried if some kind of dry lubricant would work?
I'm afraid that dry lubricants, such as graphite, will diffuse into the mirror box and contaminate all surfaces, including the film.
Ciao from Massimo