NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: PeterN on October 21, 2019, 15:33:25
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I have shot now more than 5000 photos with the Z6 and I am puzzled about its sharpness. It is a lens-independent thing. Even when I use lenses like the Zeiss 135mm, the result looks softer than D750 (in LR converted) raw files, even at higher shutter speeds. Although I am able to solve it to a large extent with a program like Topaz Sharpen AI (or use the sharpening tools in PS), I prefer to keep NEF files instead of TIFF files. Perhaps LR/Adobe Camera Raw has some problems with these files? (I also noticed a high automatic radius setting of 2 in LR ) Another explanation I could think of was that there might be an issue with the VR/IBIS system. However, I do not know how to verify that. PS: the serial number is outside the "problem" range issued by Nikon.
Could someone please put me in the right direction to find the problem and subsequently a solution?
Thank you!
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Maybe upload some 100% crops of some images where the issue is clear to see, Z6 vs D750 ;)
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Are Jpegs better? Could you share one or two typical NEFs via Dropbox or so?
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...even at higher shutter speeds.
Might this be a Noise Reduction issue? At what ISO is the problem observed? Base ISO? Mid ISO(s)? If Luminosity NR is off images should be sharp at any ISO, even very high ISO(s).
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Thank you for your help so far. I will look for some relevant examples tomorrow.
David: I use low to no NR but I will check again!
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Perhaps LR/Adobe Camera Raw has some problems with these files? (I also noticed a high automatic radius setting of 2 in LR
I *think* that you found the issue. A sharpening radius value of 2 usually gives a slightly low-resolution look. Change the radius to '1' or '0.7' and retest.
IF this change is the fix, you can create a User Preset in Develop Presets and when importing from the Z6, select that User Preset in the 'Apply During Import' drop down menu.
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I *think* that you found the issue. A sharpening radius value of 2 usually gives a slightly low-resolution look. Change the radius to '1' or '0.7' and retest.
IF this change is the fix, you can create a User Preset in Develop Presets and when importing from the Z6, select that User Preset in the 'Apply During Import' drop down menu.
Keith, does the info causing Lr to use a base radius value that high come from the camera body or the Lr Auto selection, (which may be influenced by the particular body)?
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The LR sharpening values with radius 2,0 are Nikon Z6 camera specific because of the strong low pass filter used in this camera.
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The LR sharpening values with radius 2,0 are Nikon Z6 camera specific because of the strong low pass filter used in this camera.
So, the low pass filter of the Z6 is ‘stronger’ than the D750 filter?
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Apparently yes, Peter.
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I had sharp issues once because I was using an ai-s lens (35mm in this specific case) with the ibis on but the wrong lens was input in the camera. I think the difference in focal length confuses the camera compensation. Do you think it can be happening to you?
Also, I need tho ad a cpu to my lens... ::)
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During the last summer, I messed up a large amount of pictures with my Z6. After many checks, I found out the culprit : (it was me actually) :
The ''Disp'' command was on Video mode instead camera mode... ::)
I had tried the video mode long time ago and I am sure I had switched the command back to ''camera''. So, I might have done it inadvertently ?
The result was a lack of resolution on all this pictures until I found the issue !
Once I changed the ''Disp'' button on ''camera'', everything went back to normal... :)
BTW, I didn't see any warning notice displayed on any screen.
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Keith, does the info causing Lr to use a base radius value that high come from the camera body or the Lr Auto selection, (which may be influenced by the particular body)?
IMO, I think Adobe selects a value for each camera and that's it. It is possible, of course, that Adobe could change the base conversion parameters later, in a software update.
Whether or not they have any input from Nikon, I don't know.
I've always considered the default Adobe settings to be a rough starting point, nothing more. The Adobe raw conversion is consistent, in a way---it makes every camera's raw files look equally flat and dull.
Sort of a universal starting point.
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The ''Disp'' command was on Video mode instead camera mode... ::)...
...The result was a lack of resolution on all this pictures until I found the issue !
Something like this could do it. I've made that goof when in live view on the D800.
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IMO, I think Adobe selects a value for each camera and that's it. It is possible, of course, that Adobe could change the base conversion parameters later, in a software update.
Whether or not they have any input from Nikon, I don't know.
I've always considered the default Adobe settings to be a rough starting point, nothing more. The Adobe raw conversion is consistent, in a way---it makes every camera's raw files look equally flat and dull.
Sort of a universal starting point.
That's one of the reasons I've switched to Capture One. The RAW conversion starting point with C1 is better suited to the majority of my images which are bright and vivid.
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These cameras nowadays are loaded with software so it could be a bug?
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Without samples, info on settings etc. it can be anything. Peter, van you provide more specific info?
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Without samples, info on settings etc. it can be anything. Peter, van you provide more specific info?
I will definitely do that but that has to be later today as I am out this morning. Sorry and thanks for your help!
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Thank you for the ideas! Much appreciated.
I did PM Erik and Luc with a retransfer link to some examples.
David and Keith: I reset NR to 0 and sharpening radius to 0.8 (I use those by default so I already made default presets for these. There is no real difference in sharpness.
Paco: focal length is reflected correctly.
Francis: DISP is set to Camera (I also had an accidental shift so I routinely check it before shooting
Fons: My guess is that I should then not be the only one.
My guess was that the issue resides with either Adobe’s raw conversion (especially because using Topaz Sharpen AI improves the photos tremendously) or the VR/IBIS performance because the files look fine at higher shutter speeds with shorter lenses. Of course, I don’t believe it’s my poor shooting technique. haha. No, seriously, it could also bee or my expectations but I would like to make sure it is not the camera or the Raw converter..
I am definitely going to try using various raw converters. E.g. I also noticed that the foliage does not look good in LR (I had that problem with Fuji but not with Nikon). Perhaps I should have done that already.
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Peter, I recently switched to Capture One and am very happy with the results. Will look at your samples this evening!
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I got some NEF files ;) but really I don't know how they are supposed to look,,, seems sort of ok but yes I see strange sharpness, but dependent on where the point (depth) of focus is.Also the 85mm has purple fringing or moire in the left number on the boat,,, also the ropes has something to them,,,Is it a Z 85mm, AFS or AF-D seems getting the right profile is not easy,,,
Definitely turn off sharpening in camera raw and apply that later, last.
Here full image then 100% crop both with sharpening
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The Nikon Z6 has a quite strong AA filter according to Dpreview and others,,,So it has less problems with color issues than other 24 MP cameras.So if there is an issue it could well be it is enhanced in a bad way?
So far I have seen many really nice clear and sharp images from Z6 so I'm surprised,,,,
Have you tested focus is accurate?
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See how the numbers look;
B. 5.26
Pass. 28
They are rendered purple not black - I doubt the sign looks like this in real life.
https://www.nikonusa.com/en/learn-and-explore/a/products-and-innovation/moir%C3%A9-false-color.html (https://www.nikonusa.com/en/learn-and-explore/a/products-and-innovation/moir%C3%A9-false-color.html)
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See this review
http://blog.michaelclarkphoto.com/?p=7887
Confirms what I see re the file and sharpening and AA filter
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Thanks for taking the time to analyse the issue, Erik!!
So would you conclude that the main issue is with the AA-filter? Or should I bring the camera back for inspection (since you said the results surprise you)?
Regarding focus: I haven't found issues but I assumed that focus would work as expected in mirrorless cameras (as you see, I do not know much about cameras).
Regarding sharpening settings: I found it under the "Set Picture Control" menu item. I have reset to zero values. I will check other settings such as vignetting and diffraction and turn these off as well. NR is already set to 0.
BTW: very informative review! Better than many others
The moire issue surprises me in this case. BTW the image was shot with the Nikon Z 85mm lens.
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IMO, I think Adobe selects a value for each camera and that's it. It is possible, of course, that Adobe could change the base conversion parameters later, in a software update.
Whether or not they have any input from Nikon, I don't know.
That supports what I see with Adobe and my own gear. My guess is that Adobe gets their info from reverse engineering, as I really doubt that Nkon gives up much.
I've always considered the default Adobe settings to be a rough starting point, nothing more. The Adobe raw conversion is consistent, in a way---it makes every camera's raw files look equally flat and dull.
Sort of a universal starting point.
I have not done a lot of experimentation along these lines, preferring to "let well enough alone" using minor adjustments, in view of my macular degeneration. I'm sure that an experienced person could get more out of my images than I do.
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Rule 1: Never use software (or a camera) with the Manufacturer's Default Settings!
These are my regular starting-point settings (which I then adjust depending on subject matter).
In ACR and Lr:
In the Lens Corrections Panel:
Make sure that Remove CA is checked.
Lens and Vignetting Corrections: Adjust them manually as necessary.
In Sharpening Panel.
Radius: at 1.0 or less.
Amount:
Normally somewhere between 25 and 40% depending on subject; and I use Adjustment Brush Sharpening locally too. (These are Input Settings which are used during while editing and can be saved into the metadata permanently or not — as you may choose. I usually retain them.)
Masking:
With the Option button depressed, move slider until black mask covers areas which should be protected from Sharpening. (25 - 35% is often about right.)
Detail:
This is not widely known but Details is a "hot-&-cold mixer-tap" kind of control:
Slider positions to the extreme left of the centre-point use only USM sharpening;
Slider positions to the extreme right of the centre-point use only Deconvolution sharpening.
Settings in between are using a blend of the two methods.
(My normal setting is around 85% so my sharpening is mostly Deconvolution with only 15% USM.)
Set Luminance Noise Reduction at Zero (or as close to zero as you can) because excessive luminance noise reduction reduces sharp detail to mush.
Color Noise: I set at around 10 or 15 as a useful starting point and that is usually sufficient unless you are using very high ISO.
These settings work well for me with my photography so try and see if they work better than the Adobe Default settings for you. (I neutralise all of Nikon's in-camera Picture Controls.)
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I processed the images Peter sent me in Capture One, just import and minor exposure tweaking (on a few) plus default sharpness. To me on most of the images the sharpness looks ok.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48943627262_6e32e283e5_h.jpg)
No color fringing
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48942879918_d39771f280_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48943410906_f91c4519d7_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48943599477_5f1034cd05_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48943609692_74bda8482e_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48943409001_14ff7f5fa9_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48942900988_a9afb9970d_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48943409526_310e22e189_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48943441371_f98bdb684f_h.jpg)
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Rule 1: Never use software (or a camera) with the Manufacturer's Default Settings!
These are my regular starting-point settings (which I then adjust depending on subject matter).
In ACR and Lr:
In the Lens Corrections Panel:
Make sure that Remove CA is checked.
Lens and Vignetting Corrections: Adjust them manually as necessary.
In Sharpening Panel.
Radius: at 1.0 or less.
Amount:
Normally somewhere between 25 and 40% depending on subject; and I use Adjustment Brush Sharpening locally too. (These are Input Settings which are used during while editing and can be saved into the metadata permanently or not — as you may choose. I usually retain them.)
Masking:
With the Option button depressed, move slider until black mask covers areas which should be protected from Sharpening. (25 - 35% is often about right.)
Detail:
This is not widely known but Details is a "hot-&-cold mixer-tap" kind of control:
Slider positions to the extreme left of the centre-point use only USM sharpening;
Slider positions to the extreme right of the centre-point use only Deconvolution sharpening.
Settings in between are using a blend of the two methods.
(My normal setting is around 85% so my sharpening is mostly Deconvolution with only 15% USM.)
Set Luminance Noise Reduction at Zero (or as close to zero as you can) because excessive luminance noise reduction reduces sharp detail to mush.
Color Noise: I set at around 10 or 15 as a useful starting point and that is usually sufficient unless you are using very high ISO.
These settings work well for me with my photography so try and see if they work better than the Adobe Default settings for you. (I neutralise all of Nikon's in-camera Picture Controls.)
Thanks, Ann! I will save that bit of wisdom for inclusion in my processing. Oddly enough, I already use some of your recommendations, but was not up tospeed with all of them.
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I processed the images Peter sent me in Capture One, just import and minor exposure tweaking (on a few) plus default sharpness. To me on most of the images the sharpness looks ok.
I agree, looks fine to me.
Peter, have you tried Nikon’s Capture nx-d?
It works pretty well for me and is free.
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I'm not Z6 expert and yes most likely it's just a strong AA filter you see.I don't know how the lenses behave stopping down etc re moving the focus plane, to me the landscape image looks like the focus plane is way to much in the front of the image,,,CaptureOne is very good with Moire and purple fringing! better than Adobe.
I set ACR to remove chromatic abrasions, that's why i'm so surprised by the result,,,
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Ann: thank you for sharing your wisdom! It is very helpful. In the meantime I found the submenu of the in-camera sharpening settings and changed these. I also have sharpening and NR presets defined in LR
Luc: thank you so much for taking the time to process these examples. C1 definitely does a better job with CA. it also seems to do better with foliage. It’s been a while since I used C1 (both LR and C1 have their pros and cons and LR was more convenient for me) but Iwill definitely look again.
Jack: yes, I did use Capture NX-D and it is too complicated for me. If zi have to process 1000 images, it takes me forever. So LR is some kind of trade-off. It does not shine in any area but it works well enough in all areas to accommodate my needs. However, the Z6 seems to create some challenges for LR. So I will also look again into the PhotoMechanic/capture (or ninja) combo.
Erik: thanks for the clarification. It is good to know the LP/AA filter has other characteristics requiring other settings. I now know the direction to look for solutions. I was also surprised by the false colors in such an ordinary scene. Regarding the focal plane. I loosely used the hyper focal ‘technique’. the hyperfocal distance is around 2m for a 20mm set at f8 so I focused a bit further but everything should have been sharp.p (assuming that the shot was taken appropriately. So that’s when I started to question the IBIS (shutter speed is lower than 1/400, which apparently is the speed where it is better to switch off IBIS according to the article)
Thanks again everyone. There is some work to do for me!
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.... I loosely used the hyper focal ‘technique’. the hyperfocal distance is around 2m for a 20mm set at f8 so I focused a bit further but everything should have been sharp...
I can only say that I don't trust hyperfocal technique for 18-45 MP cameras - I have too often seen how much off the depth of focus can be. The demand for having sharpness is where 'it should be' is way too difficult to predict by a guess.
I use live view if in MF, and zoom in on details to check where sharpness is. And use a Zacuto finder if very critical work is needed.
When I tested Z7 with my 19mm PCE I could see the 'red in focus' highlights where shining everywhere even though I focused way too far rear or front, not in any way indicating what I would call true or peak sharpness,,,
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BTW here in this link Roger from Lens Rentals go into details that also touch this subject, stopping down and thinking you will get sufficient depth of sharpness - but you don't or not in a uniform or predictable way. Know your lenses how each of them perform is key to mastering them ;) field curvature etc.
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/things-you-dont-know-about-stopping-down-your-lens/ (https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/things-you-dont-know-about-stopping-down-your-lens/)
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I can only reiterate what Erik already commented. "Hyperfocal focusing" is not suitable for high-resolving digital cameras. Place focus in the plane where maximum sharpness is required instead.
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That is good to know. Thanks!
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BTW here in this link Roger from Lens Rentals go into details that also touch this subject, stopping down and thinking you will get sufficient depth of sharpness - but you don't or not in a uniform or predictable way. Know your lenses how each of them perform is key to mastering them ;) field curvature etc.
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/things-you-dont-know-about-stopping-down-your-lens/ (https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/things-you-dont-know-about-stopping-down-your-lens/)
hanks, Erik, I'm looking forward to his follow up posts.
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I have shot now more than 5000 photos with the Z6 and I am puzzled about its sharpness. It is a lens-independent thing. Even when I use lenses like the Zeiss 135mm, the result looks softer than D750 (in LR converted) raw files, even at higher shutter speeds. Although I am able to solve it to a large extent with a program like Topaz Sharpen AI (or use the sharpening tools in PS), I prefer to keep NEF files instead of TIFF files. Perhaps LR/Adobe Camera Raw has some problems with these files? (I also noticed a high automatic radius setting of 2 in LR ) Another explanation I could think of was that there might be an issue with the VR/IBIS system. However, I do not know how to verify that. PS: the serial number is outside the "problem" range issued by Nikon.
Could someone please put me in the right direction to find the problem and subsequently a solution?
Thank you!
It would be helpful to know exactly how you are processing your images. Images files I've used from the Z6 following my usual post processing techniques look perfectly sharp and show excellent detail despite this camera being touted by some as a low res option!
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It would be helpful to know exactly how you are processing your images. Images files I've used from the Z6 following my usual post processing techniques look perfectly sharp and show excellent detail despite this camera being touted by some as a low res option!
Thank you for your message. I will try not to feel offended by your word "touted"
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A topic on getdpi.com may be of interest here.
https://www.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/67358-nikon-z6-z7-ibis-vr-mechanical-shutter-blurry-images.html (https://www.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/67358-nikon-z6-z7-ibis-vr-mechanical-shutter-blurry-images.html)
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A topic on getdpi.com may be of interest here.
https://www.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/67358-nikon-z6-z7-ibis-vr-mechanical-shutter-blurry-images.html (https://www.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/67358-nikon-z6-z7-ibis-vr-mechanical-shutter-blurry-images.html)
Thanks Fons for pointing to this thread. An intriguing topic! I am tempted to do some tests out of curiosity!