NikonGear'23

Images => Nature, Flora, Fauna & Landscapes => Topic started by: bobfriedman on October 17, 2018, 13:48:24

Title: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: bobfriedman on October 17, 2018, 13:48:24
Nikon D4 ,Nikkor AF-S 600mm f/4G ED VR
1/1000s f/7.1 at 850.0mm iso1250
(http://www.pbase.com/bobfriedman/image/155740780/original.jpg)
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: Bent Hjarbo on October 17, 2018, 15:14:58
Amazing  :)
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: Michael Erlewine on October 17, 2018, 16:34:56
Nice shot!
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: Akira on October 17, 2018, 16:37:39
Stunning shot!
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: atpaula on October 17, 2018, 16:43:51
A bird shot with points of interest other than the bird itself is always a pleasure to see.
In this case the action with the berries and the colorful background make the image for me.
Congrats.
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: elsid on October 17, 2018, 17:52:09
Excellent capture Robert. You never stop to amaze us with your Photos.
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: Birna Rørslett on October 17, 2018, 17:53:57
A bird picture with something extra to recommend it :D
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: golunvolo on October 17, 2018, 19:34:19
Oleeee. Emotional. Vivid. Alive.
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: Frank Fremerey on October 17, 2018, 19:44:37
excellent. Love your work!
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: Anthony on October 18, 2018, 00:30:40
Timing is all!
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: Kuri on October 19, 2018, 06:01:58
This is perhaps the best wildlife/bird photo I have ever seen. Exquisite.
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: Erik Lund on October 19, 2018, 10:02:30
Excellent IQ  ;)  Superb!


However I suggest you look at using this stellar lens without TC, and try cropping instead and look at the difference in the out of focus areas, Bokeh suffers here again, these double line type halos really distracts.
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: Nikkor Shooter on October 19, 2018, 10:27:19
I suggest you look at using this stellar lens without TC,
Same thing here. I did try plenty of proposed solutions in the TC
world but found nothing that keeps the cosmic sharpness of this
old 600mm… working so well on all my 5 bodies.

and try cropping instead
Cropping is less an option with the single digit bodies. That is
why I went the D850 way.


Spectacular rendition, Bob! :P
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: bobfriedman on October 19, 2018, 11:25:50
However I suggest you look at using this stellar lens without TC, and try cropping instead and look at the difference in the out of focus areas, Bokeh suffers here again, these double line type halos really distracts.

where i am (wildlife is not that close - or you can't get that close) cropping is not a very good option especially with a lower megapixel cam like the D4 here..  as the loss of detail is significant and a greater loss than the artifacts introduced by the TC..   so sometimes it is a matter of getting a shot or not and suffering the background artifacts.

i have plenty examples using the TC that were completely acceptable.. so it is hard to know when and where not to use it.. example below with D5 and the new 600/E FL (could be the old lens was more susceptible to this.. as you indicated in the wood duck shots, which was the old 600/G and is used above)

i agree that the cedar above has particularly bad artifacts - which i guess i should clone out when i get around to it. (will post result)

Nikon D5 ,Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 600mm f/4E FL ED VR
1/2000s f/8.0 at 850.0mm iso1800
(http://www.pbase.com/bobfriedman/image/163438739/original.jpg)

this shot with new 600/E FL without a TC doesn't have the best background. i will search for other examples.

Nikon D5 ,Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 600mm f/4E FL ED VR
1/2000s f/9.0 at 600.0mm iso1600
(http://www.pbase.com/bobfriedman/image/164756854/original.jpg)

bare 600/E FL with similar artifacts.. i should probably start a separate thread on this.

Nikon D5 ,Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 600mm f/4E FL ED VR
1/3200s f/9.0 at 600.0mm iso1000
(http://www.pbase.com/bobfriedman/image/167613970/original.jpg)

Nikon D5 ,Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 600mm f/4E FL ED VR
1/320s f/9.0 at 600.0mm iso8000
(http://www.pbase.com/bobfriedman/image/167764896/original.jpg)

this one is with the old lens/cam combo and doesn't have the artifacts..  or as much anyway..

Nikon D4 ,Nikkor AF-S 600mm f/4G ED VR
1/4000s f/7.1 at 850.0mm iso2200
(http://www.pbase.com/bobfriedman/image/148525325/original.jpg)

here is bare 600/E FL and cropped.. i am not impressed with this shot at all.. for detail or background.

Nikon D5 ,Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 600mm f/4E FL ED VR
1/3200s f/9.0 at 600.0mm iso5000
(http://www.pbase.com/bobfriedman/image/166661975/original.jpg)

(http://www.pbase.com/bobfriedman/image/166661976/original.jpg)
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: Erik Lund on October 19, 2018, 11:48:21
Thank you, it is just an observation and an excuse to buy an 800mm, a D850 or both ;)


I also have good image quality for most scenes and combinations, but sometimes the TC just disappoint in the rendering,,, same with VR,,,


Thank you for your lovely images!
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: bobfriedman on October 19, 2018, 11:57:09
i don't really like this BG either..  your point is valid and i want to find out under what conditions amplify the problem..  (i don't use VR by the way unless i absolutely need it - and with shutter speeds less than 1/500s)

Nikon D5 ,Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 600mm f/4E FL ED VR
1/3200s f/9.0 at 600.0mm iso2800
(http://www.pbase.com/bobfriedman/image/167803546/original.jpg)
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: bobfriedman on October 19, 2018, 12:03:29
an excuse to buy an 800mm, a D850 or both

not sure that solves the problem Erik.  and i have a D850 but the 16k USD for the 800 is a bit much for me.


Nikon D850 ,Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 600mm f/4E FL ED VR
1/1000s f/8.0 at 850.0mm iso1600
(http://www.pbase.com/bobfriedman/image/167296017/original.jpg)
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: Jakov Minić on October 19, 2018, 12:06:30
Bob, I haven't seen better bird images.
The passion you have for bird photography is clearly seen in your images.

I can only guess what causes the not so pleasing background, whether it is the use of a TC, or whether it is the use of VR probably has something to do with the out of focus rendering.
Another guess of mine would be that you have slightly oversharpened the images?
Most likely it is just about the new 600mm f/4 FL ED VR. A comparisson between the two 600mm lenses might provide some answers.
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: bobfriedman on October 19, 2018, 12:13:27
I can only guess what causes the not so pleasing background, whether it is the use of a TC, or whether it is the use of VR probably has something to do with the out of focus rendering.
Another guess of mine would be that you have slightly oversharpened the images?
Most likely it is just about the new 600mm f/4 FL ED VR. A comparisson between the two 600mm lenses might provide some answers.

if you notice i have examples of both lenses above.. i try not to oversharpen.. and i as said i don't use VR unless i absolutely need to and under 1/500s shutter speed..

VR and a TC used below

Nikon D5 ,Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 600mm f/4E FL ED VR
1/160s f/8.0 at 850.0mm iso5000
(http://www.pbase.com/bobfriedman/image/166763429/original.jpg)

Nikon D5 ,Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 600mm f/4E FL ED VR
1/500s f/8.0 at 1000.0mm iso16000
(http://www.pbase.com/bobfriedman/image/166725353/original.jpg)
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: bobfriedman on October 19, 2018, 12:17:57
VR used here with monopod.. and i smoothed the BG is was so bad.. NO TC

Nikon D5 ,Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 600mm f/4E FL ED VR
1/250s f/8.0 at 600.0mm iso12800
(http://www.pbase.com/bobfriedman/image/164788246/original.jpg)
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: Frank Fremerey on October 19, 2018, 13:18:24
VR can cause these artifacts. Yes, have seen it with my 300PF. Convincing examples. I was not aware that the TC has such a strong influence on bokeh. I knew that the 14E3 has a clear influence on detail rendering (softens).

I love your pictures, knowing how long it takes exploring and waiting for these situations I can estimate the time and effort it took to shoot these. World Class shots.
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: Jakov Minić on October 19, 2018, 13:46:16
if you notice i have examples of both lenses above.. i try not to oversharpen.. and i as said i don't use VR unless i absolutely need to and under 1/500s shutter speed..

VR and a TC used below

Hi Bob,

What i did notice is that you are recording bad bokeh when shooting against the light and with light being diffracted through the leaves, branches, or ground foliage.
That is something that i strive for in my blurry quest :)
Below an example, ok, used with Zenit 85/1.5, a lens that has all the qualities to achieve such a bokeh.
Nevertheless, even with exemplary lenses, like the Nikon 600mm, harshness in the out of focus areas can easily be visible (and accentuated when sharpening).

In your latest images above in low contrast and when the light isn't harsh, you will never experience bad bokeh :)

Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: Nikkor Shooter on October 19, 2018, 15:24:24


Niiiice… great number of captures here Bob, though I
would have different rendition views… so personal! :P
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: bobfriedman on October 19, 2018, 20:43:14
Could have been VR in the first but I think I shut it off as it was long ago now.

Also. The images I posted were to illustrate the points I was making. As such they all had one sort of problem or other.
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: Kuri on October 20, 2018, 04:36:05
This term 'rendition', 'render', etc., seems to be popping up a lot here and there. I suppose it might mean a lot of different things. A group of things?
Could anyone define that term a little better?

Bob, I always appreciate your list of equipment and settings used for each photo. Some don't show any info at all, it is really nice to know.
I also am always curious about the names of each bird/animal. That would be great info for each photo also.
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: bobfriedman on October 20, 2018, 05:13:23
rendition: the practice of sending a foreign criminal or terrorist suspect covertly to be interrogated in a country with less rigorous regulations for the humane treatment of prisoners.  ;D
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: bobfriedman on October 20, 2018, 05:45:04

What i did notice is that you are recording bad bokeh when shooting against the light and with light being diffracted through the leaves, branches, or ground foliage.

In your latest images above in low contrast and when the light isn't harsh, you will never experience bad bokeh :)

interesting observation as it definitely fits with my experience.. thx!
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: Nikkor Shooter on October 20, 2018, 11:26:49
This term 'rendition', 'render', etc., seems to be popping up a lot here and there. I suppose it might mean a lot of different things. A group of things?
Could anyone define that term a little better?

synonyms: performance, rendering, interpretation, presentation, execution


The RAW data — recorded by the mineral sensor — has to be
translated in a more organic rendition through a given set of
tweaks on the different attributes of the recorded data.

Those tweaks — applied with pertinence, experience and good
taste — will yield more or less successful renditions.
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: Kuri on October 22, 2018, 07:07:59
That's what I thought, a broad category and set of possible adjustments.
Nothing specific to the term, just meaning a different version, but undefined other than that.
Specific adjustment suggestions are more meaningful or helpful.
Thanks for your explanation.
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: Nikkor Shooter on October 22, 2018, 07:19:39
That's what I thought, a broad category and set of possible adjustments.
Nothing specific to the term, just meaning a different version, but undefined other than that.
Specific adjustment suggestions are more meaningful or helpful.
Thanks for your explanation.




No, and there can't be!


Technical rendition, artistic or natural renditions are all left
to the arbitrary of the author… he defines the rendition,
tastefully or not.


Different cooks will propose the same mean with each his
own twist… you to decide which is good, bad or the best.
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: Kuri on October 22, 2018, 08:39:44
Oh wow, more to rendering than I ever imagined then?!  ;)
Your use of the term is meaningless.
I have seen a few people say, "lighter", or whatever, and those kind of suggestions make sense, and have meaning.
But "another rendering" is pure fluff.
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: Nikkor Shooter on October 22, 2018, 09:31:20
Oh wow, more to rendering than I ever imagined then?!  ;) Your use of the term is meaningless. I have seen a few people say, "lighter", or whatever, and those kind of suggestions make sense, and have meaning. But "another rendering" is pure fluff.




… as you wish!
Title: Re: Cedar Waxwing
Post by: Birna Rørslett on October 22, 2018, 09:46:59
We have rendered enough of renditions now ...