NikonGear'23

Gear Talk => Lens Talk => Topic started by: longzoom on February 25, 2018, 17:57:09

Title: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: longzoom on February 25, 2018, 17:57:09
New 70/2.8  macro  and 105/1.4  Sigmas will be out soon. Akira-san, would you translate from "Nokishita"? Thanks in advance! LZ
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: Akira on February 25, 2018, 22:31:30
LZ, I see almost nothing to translate.

The website only mentions that they received the inside info about the soon-to-be-released Sigma lenses from the source abroad, the 105/1.4 will be in Canon, Nikon, Sigma and Sony E mount, and the official name for 70/2.8 is not confirmed yet:

http://www.nokishita-camera.com/2018/02/105mm-f14-dg-hsm-art70mm.html
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: longzoom on February 26, 2018, 00:18:52
Thank you! LZ
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: JKoerner007 on February 26, 2018, 03:07:45
I don't care so much for the 70mm version, but that Sigma 105 looks sweet ... especially with a tripod collar!

The appearance of this lens makes me believe that Sigma is very serious in blowing everybody else's similar macro lens out of the water with this one.

The Sigma macro will in all probability replace my Voigtländer 125mm f/2.5 Apo-Macro, if its sharpness/CA ratings wide-open are what we've come to expect out of Sigma of late.

Beginning at f/1.4, and based on Sigma's current track record, this new 105 should be much sharper by f/2 (than the CV is at f/2.5), and I have always missed a tripod collar ring on my macro lens since abandoning the Sigma 180 f/2.8, in favor of the CV 125mm f/2.5.

Especially with the added bonus of AF, plus the D850's in-body stacking, there is a very real chance my CV 125 will be on eBay the moment this lens comes out.
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: JKoerner007 on February 26, 2018, 03:27:03
Oops, I misread. I guess the 105 isn't a macro ... it's challenge to the Nikkor 105 f/1.4 :-[
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: Roland Vink on February 26, 2018, 03:54:50
The Sigma 105/1.4 would be attractive to Canon and Sony photographers who currently have nothing in this class. Whether it will appeal to Nikon photographers could depend on its price and IQ - the Nikkor will be hard to beat, but perhaps it will be different in some way which could be useful?

Not sure why a tripod foot would be necessary for this lens, this lens is likely to be smaller or around the same size as the Art 85/1.4 and 135/1.8 which lack tripod mounts, and the focal length and speed make it useful for hand-held shooting.

Notice the tripod foot has a dovetail, looks like it is compatible with the Arca-swiss system.

The 70mm macro is an update of the existing lens. It bridges the 50-60mm and 90-105mm macro lenses, the focal length is short enough to hand-hold reasonably well, but long enough to provide a little more working distance than the shorter macros, and reasonably compact. Could be a useful compromise, I often wondered why there aren't more lenses in this range.
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: JKoerner007 on February 26, 2018, 04:22:28
I agree, Roland.

The tripod collar on the 105 is why I thought it was a macro lens.

Doesn't really make much sense for such a collar to be on a lens competing with the Nikkor 105, especially since the Sigma Art 135mm doesn't have one.

I will still buy this lens, if it has a 1:2 reproduction ratio, but have no interest in it otherwise.
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: longzoom on February 26, 2018, 05:19:41
The old Sigma 70 is unbeatable optically even today, in a range of 50-70 macros (zero distortions, very high and evenly distributed sharpness, very good color/contrast ratio),  but absolutely outdated  mechanically. If they improved, a little bit, its performance to infinity, it will be a great compromise between 50 and 90 regular/macro optical compositions. Something close to, or even better, then last great Voigtlander 65/2 lens, which is 1:2, but Sigma 70/2.8 may go to 1:1, as it was. So let us wait for first formal tests from reliable sources. LZ
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: tommiejeep on February 26, 2018, 06:57:41
I think it interesting that we go forever with no manufacturer doing a new 105mm (non-macro) and now there are going to be two at f1.4.   Cool, but both are big  :( .  So does this mean a Nikon 135mm on the way and even a 180mm?  Our cameras keep getting better yet the lenses keep getting faster.  Spare a thought for us old guys that can live with f1.8, f2, f2.8, f3.5 and f4  ;)
Tom
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: Hugh_3170 on February 26, 2018, 07:40:40
Given the weight of Nikon's 105mm f/1.4 lens, it is not a bad thing IMHO to see the new Sigma with its own solid looking tripod foot, especially if it is to be used with lighter weight bodies that use monocoque construction methods and which may not take too kindly to being tripod mounted with a heavy lens mounted.  I can recall how fragile the insides of Armando's D800 looked and the very neat repairs that he carried out on its structural issues - and the D800 is supposedly a professional grade body which should have been able to be tougher............

Roland, I have also heard good things about the current/old 70mm f/2.8 macro.
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: MILLIREHM on February 26, 2018, 08:32:01
The 105s tripod food shows a Arca-like profile - fine.
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: Akira on February 26, 2018, 14:11:38
Nikon Rumors has just posted the info on the two new Sigmas here:

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/02/25/two-new-sigma-lenses-coming-next-week-105mm-f-1-4-dg-hsm-art-and-70mm-f-2-8-dg-macro-art.aspx/#more-120113
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: OCD on February 26, 2018, 18:46:26
I think it interesting that we go forever with no manufacturer doing a new 105mm (non-macro) and now there are going to be two at f1.4.   Cool, but both are big  :( .  So does this mean a Nikon 135mm on the way and even a 180mm?  Our cameras keep getting better yet the lenses keep getting faster.  Spare a thought for us old guys that can live with f1.8, f2, f2.8, f3.5 and f4  ;)
Tom

+ 1 on this.  I'd be happy with an updated 105mm f/2.5 with VR and AF-P and keep the size/weight as small/light as possible.  I think Roland or Erik (can't remember who, maybe both?) has shared similar sentiments for a 24-70mm f/4 small zoom.  That would be pretty sweet as well.  450g is about my limit for a lens.
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: JKoerner007 on February 27, 2018, 03:22:32
The old Sigma 70 is unbeatable optically even today, in a range of 50-70 macros (zero distortions, very high and evenly distributed sharpness, very good color/contrast ratio),  but absolutely outdated  mechanically. If they improved, a little bit, its performance to infinity, it will be a great compromise between 50 and 90 regular/macro optical compositions. Something close to, or even better, then last great Voigtlander 65/2 lens, which is 1:2, but Sigma 70/2.8 may go to 1:1, as it was. So let us wait for first formal tests from reliable sources. LZ

70mm is just a bad focal length for macro IMO.

Doesn't give the working distance of longer macros, nor the width-perspective of wider macros.

Can't think of any serious macro shooter who "eats and sleeps" with this focal length in macro ... like I can with so many other focal lengths.
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: JKoerner007 on February 27, 2018, 03:28:43
The 105s tripod food shows a Arca-like profile - fine.

The Sigma 105 f/1.4 is definitely sexy and unique ... but it's a damned shame it isn't macro.

A tripod foot is not something I see a lot of wedding/portrait shooters implementing.
(No other wedding/portrait lenses come with a foot ... as a tripod usually gets in the way of the ever-varying, impromptu nature of portrait imagery.)

For high-res wildlife composition, though, esp. macro, a tripod foot make perfect sense.
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: JKoerner007 on February 27, 2018, 03:32:34
Given the weight of Nikon's 105mm f/1.4 lens, it is not a bad thing IMHO to see the new Sigma with its own solid looking tripod foot, especially if it is to be used with lighter weight bodies that use monocoque construction methods and which may not take too kindly to being tripod mounted with a heavy lens mounted.  I can recall how fragile the insides of Armando's D800 looked and the very neat repairs that he carried out on its structural issues - and the D800 is supposedly a professional grade body which should have been able to be tougher............
Roland, I have also heard good things about the current/old 70mm f/2.8 macro.

The D800 was an unfinished prototype ... the D810/D850 will have the framework to handle this.

I do remember thinking the Zeiss 135 f/2 APO Sonnar felt "dangerously-heavy" on my D810 though ... but it all worked out.
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: David H. Hartman on February 27, 2018, 07:51:05
I think it interesting that we go forever with no manufacturer doing a new 105mm (non-macro) and now there are going to be two at f1.4.   Cool, but both are big  :(

I would love to see a 105/2.5~2.2 in an AF-S E-Type that is a non-VR, non-Macro lens that is designed to be compact to replace the 105/2.5 AI/AIS. I'm thinking less that f/2.0 so as not to cut into 105/1.4 sales.

The current AF-S 105/2.8G ED VR is a decent lens. It's sharp with great bokeh and CA isn't a great problem if you use CaptureNX-D and check the Axial CA correction but that lens is a *honker*. I value it for many times when I can't use a tripod and need close-up. The VR is still working at 1:1 but it's a bit dicey for a number of reasons. Nailing the focus is not assured but the odds are better if a good number of shots are taken so this masks the VR's help. Also 1:1 at a focal length of 105 requires high shutter speeds so if one expects to get away with really low speeds they will be disappointed. I think perhaps the VR can't move the image far enough at 1:1 so failures are more common as 1:1 approaches.

Anyway I like the current 105/2.8 Micro-Nikkor but it's as fat as the 180/2.8 ED AIS and with the hood it's long and looks to be a 200mm lens or so. It's has what I call "presence" whether you like it or not. The old 105/2.5(s), pre-AI Sonnars through the 105/2.5 AIS Xenotar even with an HS-8 or HS-14 hood are fairly compact.

Please Nikon! Make us a smaller 105mm lens that has similar properties to the 105/2.5 AI and AIS (excepting the wobbly built in hood of the AIS).

Dave Hartman
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: longzoom on February 27, 2018, 15:50:06
So, FBW by Sigma isn't compatible with Nikon mount... It means no new 70 Sig for Nikon, so far. Sorry, I really need  this comfortable, for me, at least, 70mm new macro lens. OK, will see.  LZ
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: Roland Vink on February 27, 2018, 20:49:22
70mm is just a bad focal length for macro IMO.

Doesn't give the working distance of longer macros, nor the width-perspective of wider macros.

Can't think of any serious macro shooter who "eats and sleeps" with this focal length in macro ... like I can with so many other focal lengths.
That's largely because there are so few macro lenses in the 70mm class :o

I see 70mm not for the "serious" macro shooter anyway, they would use the 105mm or longer for the greater working distance. But 70mm is useful for giving just a bit more working distance than the 50-60mm macros where the working distance is often inconveniently short. 70mm is still short enough that the lens remains reasonably compact and hand-holdable without VR, and is also affordable. Assuming there are extension tubes that work with this lens, less extension would be required for magnifications beyond 1:1 than the longer macros, so it could be a useful option for high magnification work (is it a coincidence the Canon 65mm MP-E has a very similar focal length?) On FX format it can double as a short portrait/tele lens, and on DX format it replicates the angle of view of a 105mm FX lens. So, while it won't be everyone's favourite, it fills a useful niche.
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: OCD on February 28, 2018, 01:54:55
That's largely because there are so few macro lenses in the 70mm class :o

I see 70mm not for the "serious" macro shooter anyway, they would use the 105mm or longer for the greater working distance. But 70mm is useful for giving just a bit more working distance than the 50-60mm macros where the working distance is often inconveniently short. 70mm is still short enough that the lens remains reasonably compact and hand-holdable without VR, and is also affordable. Assuming there are extension tubes that work with this lens, less extension would be required for magnifications beyond 1:1 than the longer macros, so it could be a useful option for high magnification work (is it a coincidence the Canon 65mm MP-E has a very similar focal length?) On FX format it can double as a short portrait/tele lens, and on DX format it replicates the angle of view of a 105mm FX lens. So, while it won't be everyone's favourite, it fills a useful niche.

If there were 18mm f/2 and 35mm f/1.4 and 70mm f/2 DX lenses...I'd still be using a DX camera.  Alas.  (I'd take VR with that 70mm though).
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: Frank Fremerey on February 28, 2018, 19:27:39
Oops, I misread. I guess the 105 isn't a macro ... it's challenge to the Nikkor 105 f/1.4 :-[


The Nikkor 1.4/105E is wonderful but it also has some issues. So lets see how those two compare.
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on February 28, 2018, 20:46:27
The Sigma 105/1.4 is >1.6kg in weight.
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: Akira on March 01, 2018, 12:23:49
The Sigma 105/1.4 is >1.6kg in weight.

Yeah, it's HUGE!

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/7988525955/cp-2018-hands-on-with-sigma-105mm-f1-4-art-bokeh-master?slide=4
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: Erik Lund on March 01, 2018, 14:45:45
Indeed,,, front element looks almost like a 200mm f/2  ;D 


It's apparently 'only' 105mm filter size,,,


Most likely it will have a super good ability to defocus in front of the focus plane due to the large front element,,, as well as of of course behind the focus plane,,,
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: Akira on March 01, 2018, 16:34:20
Indeed,,, front element looks almost like a 200mm f/2  ;D 


It's apparently 'only' 105mm filter size,,,


Most likely it will have a super good ability to defocus in front of the focus plane due to the large front element,,, as well as of of course behind the focus plane,,,

Yes, the filter size is 105mm.  Let's hope the mirrorbox won't cut the circular bokeh... ::)
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: Akira on March 05, 2018, 00:27:32
Here is a report of the Sigma booth from CP+ (sorry, all in Japanese):

https://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/eventreport/1109671.html

One interesting point, or rather a problem, is that Sigma is halting the development of 70mm Macro for the Nikon F mount, because of the concern about the (in)compatibility issue of its fly-by-wire focusing system using a coreless motor with Nikon's AF-P system.

If you are interested in other new products reported here, please don't hesitate to ask.  I would be willing to summarize the sections in question.
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: Macro_Cosmos on March 06, 2018, 19:02:56
The sig 105mm has a ridiculous filter size of like 105mm or something from what I've heard. Perhaps this is just like their 84.6 errr I mean 85mm Art, meant to counter vignetting wide open. The 105 f/1.4E has ample vignetting wide open. CA is also quite moderate, although I'm not sure if it's an issue in shooting or not -- I don't have one. Maybe the Sig has better performance when it comes to lack of CA?

As for the 70mm, I'm a serious macro shooter, not interested. I have an 85mm pc-e for 1:2, a rayfact 95mm f/4 that covers 1:1 to 2:1 (it's not on Nikon's website, it's a special line scanner lens that covers medium format). I would like to have 1:1 macro lens that gives me adequate working distance, which the 70mm would not deliver. Instead, I'd take the 180mm from Sigma. Going to save up for one in the near future.
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: Akira on March 06, 2018, 20:00:52
A few sample images:

70mm Macro:

https://www.sigma-global.com/en/lenses/cas/product/art/a_70_28/gallery/

105/1.4:

https://www.sigma-global.com/en/lenses/cas/product/art/a_105_14/gallery/
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: Roland Vink on March 06, 2018, 23:33:31
The sig 105mm has a ridiculous filter size of like 105mm [...]
The Sigma 85mm Art also has a proportionately large filter size of 86mm. These filters sizes are large enough (just) to allow an entrance pupil diameter to equal the focal length, in other words an f/1.0 aperture. So their 85mm and 105mm f/1.4 lenses are really quite slow compared to the filter size  :o  :o
Title: Re: New 2 Sigmas.
Post by: Macro_Cosmos on March 07, 2018, 14:10:30
The Sigma 85mm Art also has a proportionately large filter size of 86mm. These filters sizes are large enough (just) to allow an entrance pupil diameter to equal the focal length, in other words an f/1.0 aperture. So their 85mm and 105mm f/1.4 lenses are really quite slow compared to the filter size  :o  :o

Yep, that's true. The nikon F mount only allows lenses as fast as f/0.95 or something, I forgot. The Zeiss Otus 85mm also has a ridiculous 86mm filter size, but the vignetting is worse than Sig. The Sig is less sharp and yields more LoCA in comparison but wayyyyy brighter at f/1.4 than the Otus. The sigma is also not 85mm, it's a bit shorter -- oh well.

I looked at the 70mm macro sample photos.They are boring in my opinion.
Edit: Also looked at the 105mm -- borrrrrriing