NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: chambeshi on September 21, 2017, 10:23:56
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"....This review will cover my favorite things about the D850… and there are A LOT of them. It’s an incredible camera. Please don’t lose sight of that. This machine is next level hardware. We are in the midst of a full conversion to them. However, this review will also feature some of the things that I think Nikon got (or continues to get) wrong. I think that a few small changes would take this camera from an incredible machine to a beloved tool for those of us that shoot almost every day. The good news is that these changes are mostly possible… even now. The bad news is, I’m not sure Nikon will ever listen..."
https://hofferphotography.com/2017/09/19/nikon-d850-review-the-best-camera-nikon-has-ever-made-but/
Another +ve review albeit with interesting criticism of where Nikon persists in falling short. Software Interfaces. "the areas where it lacks are very easy software and firmware fixes"..... Personally, I manage the worst of the clunky, hidden settings, and thus usually get along fine with the OS of the Nikon DSLRs (Df, D750, D500, D3). But since the early 1980s i'm used to Command-Line and other interfaces that many contemporary software aficionados condemn as arcane :-)
kind regards
Woody
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My shortlist, the rest seems to be very very fine:
Since the D3 Nikon made the cameras to supress chrominance noise and make luminance noise look like fine grain. The D850 has some significant chrominance noise that becomes visible at high ISO and at recovering shadows. I am talking about RAWs here, that are precooked in image recorders, processors and firmware. Attached the best I could get in very difficult lighting at base ISO with a double HDR process after RAW conversion.
Manual Focus Capability, highly probable that it is the focussing screen that should be replaced (no firmware fix for that :)
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"....This review will cover my favorite things about the D850… and there are A LOT of them. It’s an incredible camera. Please don’t lose sight of that. This machine is next level hardware. We are in the midst of a full conversion to them. However, this review will also feature some of the things that I think Nikon got (or continues to get) wrong. I think that a few small changes would take this camera from an incredible machine to a beloved tool for those of us that shoot almost every day. The good news is that these changes are mostly possible… even now. The bad news is, I’m not sure Nikon will ever listen..."
https://hofferphotography.com/2017/09/19/nikon-d850-review-the-best-camera-nikon-has-ever-made-but/
Another +ve review albeit with interesting criticism of where Nikon persists in falling short. Software Interfaces. "the areas where it lacks are very easy software and firmware fixes"..... Personally, I manage the worst of the clunky, hidden settings, and thus usually get along fine with the OS of the Nikon DSLRs (Df, D750, D500, D3). But since the early 1980s i'm used to Command-Line and other interfaces that many contemporary software aficionados condemn as arcane :-)
kind regards
Woody
This guy review is a load of tosh.
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My shortlist, the rest seems to be very very fine:
Since the D3 Nikon made the cameras to supress chrominance noise and make luminance noise look like fine grain. The D850 has some significant chrominance noise that becomes visible at high ISO and at recovering shadows. I am talking about RAWs here, that are precooked in image recorders, processors and firmware. Attached the best I could get in very difficult lighting at base ISO with a double HDR process after RAW conversion.
Manual Focus Capability, highly probable that it is the focussing screen that should be replaced (no firmware fix for that :)
Your focus is on the first white hair guy
In which case the B/G should have either a shallower DoP or a deeper one.
It does not work as shot.
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I love your positive attitude towards life, people and this forum, jay eim ...
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I love your positive attitude towards life, people and this forum, jay eim ...
Thank you for your wishes. It does not make any difference. It still is not properly shot and I understand your embarrassment.
Enjoy this in the mean time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJQP7kiw5Fk
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Thank you for your wishes. It does not make any difference. It still is not properly shot and I understand your embarrassment.
Enjoy this in the mean time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJQP7kiw5Fk
Your opinion was recorded and duly noted
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This guy review is a load of tosh.
Well, as with art critique, each to their own. I am not alone in finding it useful, especially in not being yet another 'super-technical' review
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Thanks for the link
The review certainly complements the examples and opinions we have seen here and in other web sites
I like it is an opinion of a wedding photographer, they do use the cameras intensively and care about some things I do not but still is an informed opinion - IMO ;D
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Since I doubt I'll be buying one soon, I may be missing some of the purported tosh in that review, but it seems mostly to be the opinion of someone who has actually used the camera. However, I do wonder about the complaint that the silent shutter requires Live View. How else would an SLR with an optical viewfinder have a silent shutter?
Though I am reminded of an early Nikon F, probably seen here, in which the rangefinder window was retained. Maybe someone should design a silent-shutter SLR with a little digital viewfinder that can be seen with the mirror up. Assuming decent auto focus and the like, it would not have to be super high resolution, just good enough to aim.
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Your opinion was recorded and duly noted
.... and reported, I bet .... ;)
I trust that picture under reply #1 was only to illustrate your point, and not for being an example of good composition.
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I don't find any difficulty with the menu system of mid and upper level Nikon DSLRs. I am wondering why the author of the review was so frustrated with the D850's.
I have to say that saying that 1500-2000 shots on a small battery is "just ok", is odd. The author says the D750 gives as many shots on a single battery charge but the D850 reads, processes and saves almost twice as large files, so power consumption per shot is expected to increase. Furthermore the AF system is much more powerful and runs on a separate processor which again should consume additional battery power. Finally the 7 and 9 fps capability again are potential sources for increased power consumption. That Nikon manage the D850 to get as many shots as a D750 on one charge in the same kind of use is an achievement.
The CIPA ratings are misleading because the D810 has a built in flash which reduces its number of shots per charge compared to the D850 which doesn't use a built in flash. But still this should take nothing away from Nikon keeping the power consumption under control. I remember I was getting far fewer shots on a charge in earlier Nikon DSLRs.
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Though I am reminded of an early Nikon F, probably seen here, in which the rangefinder window was retained.
That wasn't a rangefinder window but rather a photocell for non-TTL light metering.
Dave
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One thing is lacking in my D800's menu system: that's a U1, U2, U3 and U4 that encompasses both the shooting and the custom settings menus along with exposure mode, focus mode and exposure compensation and accessed as a menu selection perhaps by double pressing the info button and not a dial on top of the camera. This would be similar to resetting the camera to the manufacture's defaults but rather to the user's defaults.
Dave Hartman
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A silent non-live view exposure dSLR is about a plausible today as the Dick Tracy wrist TV was back in the 50's or 60's. The wrist TV was Sci Fi then and fact now. All it took was a bunch of inventions, the color LCD being chief among them.
Dave
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The Link shows some great photos. In table top still life, the split screen focussing seems a really nice feature. His example with the two ladies is phantastic and this is only a tilt shift, not a real Sinar setup.
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.... and reported, I bet .... ;)
I trust that picture under reply #1 was only to illustrate your point, and not for being an example of good composition.
I like the picture and the band likes the picture.
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Silent shooting with optical viewfinder in a DSLR outside of live view is possible all it takes is a pellicle mirror and electronic shutter.
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Photography Life have just published a detailed review of the D850, acknowledged to be a work in progress that'll be updated
https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-d850
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Silent shooting with optical viewfinder in a DSLR outside of live view is possible all it takes is a pellicle mirror and electronic shutter.
Yes but! Who wants to loose an f/stop of exposure and half the brightness of the viewfinder particularly at night? Unfortunately silent SLR viewing requires a special camera. I can't be a mode that one turns on and off.
We have the wrist TV and even finally have true JetPack Aviation not just a rocket pack that allows 15 seconds of flight and then sudden death! ...
JetPack Aviation (http://www.jetpackaviation.com/)
All we need is for some Sci Fi to become reality and for Nikon to be there first with the patents.
Dave Hartman
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I like the picture and the band likes the picture.
That is of course what counts.
To my eye however the shadows are way over lifted with nasty artifacts all over the image, so your remark about induced noise is not surprising as you will induce noise with any raw file when overcooking an image like this.
There's a lot of DR leg room in high res files from the D8xx or a7RII but it still isn't limitless ;)
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That wasn't a rangefinder window but rather a photocell for non-TTL light metering.
Dave
Sorry, I guess I misremembered. I just recall that there was a prototype F with an extra window.
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I'm pretty sure I read that the Nikon F was based on the Nikon SP. The SP was widened to make space [in the center] for a mirror box.
Dave
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I'm pretty sure I read that the Nikon F was based on the Nikon SP. The SP was widened to make space for a mirror box.
Dave
Indeed:
(http://www.nicovandijk.net/SPENF.JPG)
F and SP body, side by side
(http://www.nicovandijk.net/cliponmeter.JPG)
first F body with clip-on “not through the lens” external selenium meter
(http://www.nicovandijk.net/F1.jpg)
Nikon F with early Photomic model (viewfinder with built-in exposure meter, but without TTL-metering)
courtesy Nico Vandijk
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That is of course what counts.
To my eye however the shadows are way over lifted with nasty artifacts all over the image, so your remark about induced noise is not surprising as you will induce noise with any raw file when overcooking an image like this.
There's a lot of DR leg room in high res files from the D8xx or a7RII but it still isn't limitless ;)
You are right. Not limitless. If I expose for the lights I have to filter the chrominance noise from the pulled shadows, a behaviour not seen to such an extent with the 24 MP Sony sensor where I found this troublesome only at higher ISO values.
If I expose correctly, like 18 percent grey of the middle between the important parts as in right and left side of faces, I get a lot of blown highlights combined with a lot of sunken shadows. I could of course use huge reflectors, but not on a live gig. A white tent as diffuser would help, but they came for the music not for the photos.
A thing to try is underexpose plus set in-camera-shadow-push to "high" but this usually gives a plastic look similar to the one I produced above.
ETTR is not a good idea either in such a situation. You want to avoid blown highlights with the D850. ETTR is walking a thin blade.
Solution might be to use another RAW converter that is better in shadow pulling. I hear ACR trumps NXD here.
I will continue to experiment.
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The light balances seems to be way off in that image Frank.
To me it looks like blown highlights that shine and colour noise in the a pumped up HDR look that I don't like.
It is like a lot of elements in the image is pulling in very different directions.
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The light balances seems to be way off in that image Frank.
To me it looks like blown highlights that shine and colour noise in the a pumped up HDR look that I don't like.
It is like a lot of elements in the image is pulling in very different directions.
Erik. Ist there a good how to on dealing with this kind of lighting? The example was exposed for the lights and later developed for the shadows in such a way that I could save all shadows and all lights. Later I had to compress the dynamic range again. I took the decision to blow the clouds from the sky and not to make all notes on the score readable. I wanted balanced lights on the faces, I wanted the eyes look not like black holes. Here is another example. This time I exposed for the eyes and used the blown highlights as a symbol for brightness
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First, of course it is allowed to blow highlights, but it should work with the subject not against ;) Lot's of nice into the sun images on this site ;) New thread maybe?
When shooting in light conditions like your sample, it will be a compromise always, you are not in control of the light as such however you have some freedom to operate regarding other elements that has a huge impact on the final image, such as:
Your position and angle with regards to the direction of light
Exposing so the highlights can be recovered, usually around 1/6 stop down from Standard Matrix Metering
Choose a lens that doesn't flare easily, good coatings, long lens hood no filters
Pull up exposure in PP
pull down highlights in PP
pull down shadows in pp
Very similar light in Bergen Norway, Den Gamle By,,, done how I like it ;) Leica M9
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5491/31064175865_59cea11403_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Pk32e4)L1000250 (https://flic.kr/p/Pk32e4) by Erik Gunst Lund (https://www.flickr.com/photos/erik_lund/), on Flickr
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I like the picture and the band likes the picture.
If the band likes the picture, well so be it, alleluia. I guess they value more the souvenir aspect of the picture than it's intrinsic photographic quality. You might like the picture for similar reasons; but I have quite difficulties to understand that a professional photographer can second such a picture: (1) you are talking about "double HDR"; for me this supposes combining more than one picture to overcome a wider dynamic range; it appears that this seems to be a single picture with some PP to achieve the same objective; what "double HDR" means: up to you to explain; (2) composition: well, this goes simply nowhere, or should I say, it goes in all directions. For me (1) can be solved by improving your PP skills; or adapting the shooting angle e.g.; (2) the art of composition is a much more subtle one; there are some basic rules; but the rest is "ars", sense, feeling, and much more a gift than something learned (BTW the picture under #26 is of similar nature i.e weak composition).
I would have stopped after my first comment, but as you seem to subscribe the picture in it's entirety. Therefore, my quid pro quo.
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First, of course it is allowed to blow highlights, but it should work with the subject not against ;) Lot's of nice into the sun images on this site ;) New thread maybe?
When shooting in light conditions like your sample, it will be a compromise always, you are not in control of the light as such however you have some freedom to operate regarding other elements that has a huge impact on the final image, such as:
Your position and angle with regards to the direction of light
Exposing so the highlights can be recovered, usually around 1/6 stop down from Standard Matrix Metering
Choose a lens that doesn't flare easily, good coatings, long lens hood no filters
Pull up exposure in PP
pull down highlights in PP
pull down shadows in pp
Very similar light in Bergen Norway, Den Gamle By,,, done how I like it ;) Leica M9
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5491/31064175865_59cea11403_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Pk32e4)L1000250 (https://flic.kr/p/Pk32e4) by Erik Gunst Lund (https://www.flickr.com/photos/erik_lund/), on Flickr
Well captured! The reflection in the instrument gives the image almost like a 3D- effect.
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"Tact is the art of making your point, without making an enemy."
Sir Issac Newton.
Manners are a wonderful concept.
Randy
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I really like the example, Erik!
Did you work with layers or is the picture a direct RAW conversion?
BTW
The D500 is much more civilized in the recovery business, two more examples:
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The D500 is much more civilized in the recovery business, two more examples:
I used to fight with back lit/high contrast portraits and try to save all highlight detail everywhere at the expense of shadow detail with the "I'll fix it in post" train of thought. I've since come to realize that if a person is the subject and the weight of the exposure leans towards exposing them properly, not saving background highlights, the result is often better skin tones and overall appearance of the person. Of course I'll still try to mitigate blown highlights as much as I can.
These last two D500 pictures have much smaller angle of view, and as such dynamic range, than the D850 pictures you posted so perhaps not a fair comparison? Also in my experience, which admittedly is not with the D850, raising shadows on a pictures that include large bright areas, such as blown out skies, always introduces more noise than raising shadows of a scene with less dynamic range.
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Solution might be to use another RAW converter that is better in shadow pulling. I hear ACR trumps NXD here.
Where does one get a version of CNX-D that will open a D850 NEF?
Dave Hartman
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Where does one get a version of CNX-D that will open a D850 NEF?
Dave Hartman
Since 6 September it is downloadable at NikonUSA.com but there are other language versions too. I tend to use my image editing software in the English language.
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Where does one get a version of CNX-D that will open a D850 NEF?
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As already said, it's been available for a while now .. but don't hold your breath waiting for it to do something!
CNX-D is quite terrible with even easy files, bad with harder D8xx type files... and pretty much useless with these D850 files.
Don't bother wasting the time to download .. wait till they fix whatever bug precludes it from doing anything on D850 files.
The old ViewNX2 still 'owns it' in terms of ability to do anything useful(on D800E files that I have) ... why they changed is a major mystery.
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I can use the latest CNXD version 1.4.6 to open and apply camera settings to the D850 files
It is ok for experimenting, but it is slow and I can't imagine using it for more than a couple of files
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Thanks. No layers, it is processed as described, PP in ACR.