NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: jpgrahn on February 24, 2017, 15:29:37
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I have discovered that my Nikon 1 V3 gives the wrong exposure if it is set to 20 fps or 30 fps in S-mode. The exact problem is that it will never give me an aperture smaller than 5.6. Single frame, 6 fps, 30 fps and 60 fps gives correct exposure.
At the moment I am dealing with Nikon Support in Sweden trying to explain the problem. I sent it in but it came back the same way. Maybe I couldn't explain the problem in an understandable way.
It is very easy to check. It is not necessary to take lots of photos. Just set your camera with any lens (as far as I know) to S-mode. Make sure that the correct exposure gives an aperture smaller than 5.6. 8, 11 16. Anything smaller will do. Any ISO is ok. Again as far as I know.
Now just select the different fps that are possible to choose and check if the aperture goes down to the correct level at all speed settings.
I have checked all my lenses (10, 18.5, 32, 10-30, 30-110 and 70-300) and they all displays the same behaviour. All lenses are CX.
I discovered this back in July of 2016 but for different reasons didn't send my camera in until now.
At that time I created a topic on dpreview. From this I can conclude that I am not alone with this problem.
Here is the link: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4016063 (V3 - S-mode, 10 frames/s and higher only gives 5.6)
I was in touch with Nikon Support at that time as well. One technician even called me up. The conclusion at that time was that my camera is faulty. Guess I should have sent it in right away...
Grateful for your comments on this. And especially grateful if you have a V3 and is able to check how it works.
/Johan
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I can confirm this was normal behaviour for my V1 working in S-mode at high fps. See attached picture where my aperture was initially @f/4 but it then locked @f/5.6 once I moved to the high fps setting.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7343/14030423771_34e91143f2_o.jpg)
afvoer - waste disposal (https://flic.kr/p/nnPAb8) by Arend (https://www.flickr.com/photos/vermazeren/), on Flickr
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Thanks for you comment. That is a beautiful shot!
My V1 does not behave the same way! It will give the correct exposure where the V3 will not.
/Johan
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That is interesting Johan, I cannot retest as I sold my V1.
I used my 300/4 AFS with the FT1 adapter and I am sure it had this behaviour because I remember I was quite frustrated, not only for this aperture behaviour but basically all settings lock at high fps.
I will test my J5 later, but that does not help your V3 request.
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if I'm understanding this correctly, you are saying the V3 allows to set the exposure parameters in some high FPS modes?
the V1 does not, and that was a disappointment, as it goes into fully automatic mode with auto ISO 3200 when using the 20fps mode
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Make sure that the correct exposure gives an aperture smaller than 5.6. 8, 11, 16.
Do you mean "wider than" f/5.6, 8, 11, 16?f/4, for example, is a larger, wider aperture than f/16.
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The only reason I can think of that the V3 would prevent a wide-open aperture of f/3.5, f/4 or f/4.5 while in Shutter Priority mode shooting at 30 fps would be that somehow the V3 thinks the shots would be blown out at the given speed (of 1/30" or faster) and thus stops down to f/5.6 or more prevent that. Perhaps a very high ISO setting or having Active D-lighting set to ON could cause problems? Or it is possible that Matrix Metering could be misreading some scenes?
So try a test with Spot Metering, base ISO=160 and ADL=OFF.
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I note that the manual is quite lacking in detail about the interactions of Shutter Priority mode with the various settings mentioned above. I've been playing with my V3 this afternoon and do not seem to be able to induce the problem you write about. But that certainly does not mean that you're not seeing it! :)
My V3 firmware is C 1.11 and L 1.0.
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What I am saying is that my V3 gives me the wrong exposure when using 10 fps and 20 fps in S-mode.
For example. Let's say that the correct exposure at ISO 200 is 1/200 and f16.
This is no problem to achieve at 6 fps, at 30 fps and at 60 fps.
Using 10 fps or 20 fps will only get me f5.6.
I discovered this phenomena when I was trying to get pictures of common swift (tornseglare). Normally I would use A-mode but the birds were so fast I started experimenting with S-mode instead.
Following the bird I sometimes ended up pointing to the sky and needing maybe f11. With the birds flying close to the ground I had the forrest and fields as the background needing f5.6 or so. To my surprise the camera refused to go any lower than f5.6 att 10 and 20 fps.
This was discovered just by accident. I know I am not alone in seeing this phenomena but I guess most people do not run in to this limitation. I did not now about it until I started to chase the birds.
And I am also frustrated because it seems that I cannot properly describe the problem. So many misunderstand me. Sorry! My english is not good enough!
I don't know if the camera will change the exposure during a sequence. That was not what I was asking. All I want to get is the correct exposure to begin with. At these high frequencies all you have is a the most a few seconds until the buffer is full. Of course I can use 30 fps but it is really too fast. And 6 fps is a bit slow. 10 fps is probably best for a fast bird. Maybe 20 fps.
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Make sure that the correct exposure gives an aperture smaller than 5.6. 8, 11, 16.
Do you mean "wider than" f/5.6, 8, 11, 16?f/4, for example, is a larger, wider aperture than f/16.
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The only reason I can think of that the V3 would prevent a wide-open aperture of f/3.5, f/4 or f/4.5 while in Shutter Priority mode shooting at 30 fps would be that somehow the V3 thinks the shots would be blown out at the given speed (of 1/30" or faster) and thus stops down to f/5.6 or more prevent that. Perhaps a very high ISO setting or having Active D-lighting set to ON could cause problems? Or it is possible that Matrix Metering could be misreading some scenes?
So try a test with Spot Metering, base ISO=160 and ADL=OFF.
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I note that the manual is quite lacking in detail about the interactions of Shutter Priority mode with the various settings mentioned above. I've been playing with my V3 this afternoon and do not seem to be able to induce the problem you write about. But that certainly does not mean that you're not seeing it! :)
My V3 firmware is C 1.11 and L 1.0.
See what I mean. :-)
It is difficult to explain. To me a smaller aperture than 5.6 is 8 or 11 or 16. It is a smaller opening, hence my use of the term smaller aperture. It is no problem to get bigger apertures than 5.6 (or as wide as 1.2 from my 32 if I want).
I have the same firmware as you. The latest firmware as far as I know.
Thanks for checking your camera. Maybe it is a faulty component at play here. My serial number is #51002639. I don't know if it is an early camera. I bought this used.
Maybe I am old and stupid but to me the camera SHOULD give me the same correct exposure regardless of which mode is used and which fps is used.
I was rather upset at the suggestion from Nikon Support/Repair that I should read the manual. But no effort was made to explain to me what I was doing wrong where in the manual I would find an explanation of the behaviour.
/Johan
/Johan
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I don't think the problem is that mysterious. Shooting at 60 fps means there is a limit as to how long the shutter speed can be for each frame. Probably the longest exposure would be around 1/120 sec or so. If the set aperture will make an underexposed frame, the automatics override and if the shutter speed cannot be slowed any further, open up the aperture to let more light in.
Increase the ISO or add more light, then try the same capture. Now the aperture should be more likely to remain at the value initially set.
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I don't think the problem is that mysterious. Shooting at 60 fps means there is a limit as to how long the shutter speed can be for each frame. Probably the longest exposure would be around 1/120 sec or so. If the set aperture will make an underexposed frame, the automatics override and if the shutter speed cannot be slowed any further, open up the aperture to let more light in.
Increase the ISO or add more light, then try the same capture. Now the aperture should be more likely to remain at the value initially set.
I wish that was the case.
Agree, at higher fps there must be a limit to how long the shutterspeed can be.
All the higher fps (10, 20, 30 and 60) limits the slowest shutterspeed to 1/60. This could be related to the fact that it is the electronic shutter is used.
At 6 fps the mechanical shutter is used. There is no limit as to hos slow the shutterspeed can be.
The V3 will switch between mechanical and electronic shutter by itself. The V1 allows the user to choose. But of course with the mechanical shutter there are limits as to hos many fps one can use.
My first conclusion when I noticed this was simply that one could not use smaller apertures at high fps. I didn't even check 30 and 60 fps since it would give me too many pictures and the cameras buffers limits how long one can shot at that speed. 10 and 20 fps are much better in this regard. At least when shooting the common swift.
But that changed when I found that 30 and 60 fps does not limit the aperture.
To me at least there should be no difference between the exposures of the same scene.
This is what I get when shoot exactly the same scene at different fps. Nothing else changes between the shots.
I went out again this morning. This was done with my 1.2/32mm. S-mode, ISO set at 800.
No change in the scene between the pictures. Except the sun was rising and maybe some shadows change. There is a very slight change at 30 fps.
Single frame: Shutterspeed - 1/125, Aperture f1/14
6 fps: 1/125, f1/14
10 fps: 1/125, f1/5.6
20 fps: 1/125, f1/5.6
30 fps: 1/125, f 1/13
60 fps: 1/125, f1/14
I can show the photos but that is really not so important. As far as I can tell it is impossible to see the fps setting of the camera in EXIF. I can see lots of other information but not that.
I am really beginning to feel like the grumpy old man my daughters sometimes tell me I am.
I felt I was getting the "run-around" from Nikon Support at first. No matter how I tried to explain I got what seemed to be completely random suggestions as to what I should check or do.
It is frustrating since I realize my way of explaning is just not enough to convey the problem. Not matter how hard I try it gets misunderstood.
What could possibly be the reason?
1 - I am doing something wrong. Very possible! But please tell me why the same scene gets correctly exposed at certain fps and over exposed at others. I don't get it.
2 - Something wrong with my lens. I tried all my lenses and the all display exactly the same pattern. 10mm, 18.5, 32, 10-30, 30-110 and 70-300. And they don't behave like this on my V1.
3 - Firmware not updated. I have Nikon's latest firmware for the camera.
4 - Some setting in the camera is off. I tried to return the settings to default. Same thing.
5 - Read the manual. I did. Can't find ANY note describing this limitation. If there is a note about this please tell me where to find it.
6 - It is some faulty component in my camera. Possible. Don't know when my camera was manufactured. Maybe the number #51002639 is an early one.
7 - All Nikon's V3s are doing the same. Also possible. And Nikon doesn't want to admit that there is a firmware bug or a faulty component. This thought has crossed my mind I admit. But I hope that Nikon will admit a problem if there is such.
Sorry about this long rant!
Next year it will be 40 years using Nikon equipment. Starting with the FM, then on to FM2, F3, F4 and after that D1H, D2H, D700 and D800. I am nowhere near other people's experience and knowledge but neither am I a beginner. And I like Nikon gear. I really do. And I like Nikon 1 as well. Both the V1 and the V3. What I am describing above is not enought to stop using the camera. Most of the time I can work around it. I know how to do that. But this issue is like having a stone in your shoe. Finally you just have to get it out!
Thanks for reading!
/Johan
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Johan - Thank you for the clarifications!! I needed to be sure I understood what you were saying. Sometimes people say "smaller" aperture meaning a "smaller number" rather than a "smaller width". ;D
I will now retest my V3 and let you know if I can reproduce this.
There is probably some undocumented boundary in S-mode which is being triggered. You already mentioned the one about 1/60" when in continuous mode.
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Variables which might change exposure settings.
Auto-focus Mode: Auto-area, Single Point or Tracking. Both Auto-area and Tracking could affect exposure. So Single Point should be used in test.
Metering Mode: Important to try Spot vs. Matrix Metering because MM is built on recognition algorithms which may vary if the light shifts even a little bit. Spot metering in steady lighting can avoid possible changes.
White Balance: Not sure how this might affect exposure, but I'm going to set a fixed WB (Daylight) instead of use Auto.
ISO: Auto-ISO is turned off. A high enough ISO used to ensure that the 1/60" limit is not triggered.
Johan's data, repeated here, shows a break between 6 and 10 fps and between 20 and 30 fps.
Single frame: 1/125, f/14
6 fps: 1/125, f/14
10 fps: 1/125, f/5.6
20 fps: 1/125, f/5.6
30 fps: 1/125, f/13
60 fps: 1/125, f/14
Note: In Single Frame and at 6 fps, the mechanical shutter is used. At 10, 20, 30 fps, the electronic shutter is used.
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Is all the footage exposed similar? According to the data just given, there should be major differences, unless some hidden automatics alter the exposure time (or effective ISO) without telling.
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YES !!!!!!!!!!!! I can reproduce the problem in my V3.
It happens in S-mode for all apertures from f/6.3 - f/16 when using the 10 or 20 fps setting
S: 1/200", f/11
6fps: 1/200", f/11
10 fps: 1/200", f/5.6 OVEREXPOSED
20 fps: 1/200", f/5.6 OVEREXPOSED
30 fps: 1/200", f/11
My other settings were --
Auto-focus: Single Point
Metering: Spot
WB: Incandescent (I was indoors.)
ISO: 6400 (I went with the highest just so as to eliminate ISO as a factor.)
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Johan, I have a suggested work-around, a pseudo-S-mode.
Use Manual Mode with Auto-ISO turned on. Dial in your desired fixed Speed and fixed Aperture, then Auto-ISO will work to set the proper exposure. You can switch to any of the continuous fps modes and the Speed and Aperture settings will not change for any of the 6/10/20/30/60 fps settings. If the light does not change, then the original setting chosen by Auto-ISO will also not change. It may go up or down by a fractional stop if the light is variable.
(In good light Auto-ISO may not be needed if you choose the initial ISO wisely.)
I tested this Manual Auto-ISO mode at all continuous frame settings and got no changes in steady light.
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Johan, I don't have a V3, so I can't help directly.
However, I just wanted to say that in my opinion you are doing very fine explaining your problem.
I wish Nikon would listen closer.
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As explained by Johan and independently tested and verified by Andrea, this is clearly a bug specific to the V3. Report this bug to the nearest Nikon subsidiary (probably Nikon Nordic if you live in Sweden). Meanwhile, use Andrea's clever work-around.
My hunch is the problem is caused by an error in the firmware dealing with video.
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Thanks for helping me look at this problem!
Immensely appreciated!
Andrea together with user Dave (on Dpreview) and myself makes six confirmed cases. Maybe we are building a case here!
I don't have much hope of getting av fix for it. Unless it is firmware related. But a rekognition of the problem from Nikon would mean a lot.
I will be in touch with Nikon again on Monday. I promised not to badger them during the weekend.
Will keep you posted.
/Johan
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YES !!!!!!!!!!!! I can reproduce the problem in my V3.
It happens in S-mode for all apertures from f/6.3 - f/16 when using the 10 or 20 fps setting
S: 1/200", f/11
6fps: 1/200", f/11
10 fps: 1/200", f/5.6 OVEREXPOSED
20 fps: 1/200", f/5.6 OVEREXPOSED
30 fps: 1/200", f/11
My other settings were --
Auto-focus: Single Point
Metering: Spot
WB: Incandescent (I was indoors.)
ISO: 6400 (I went with the highest just so as to eliminate ISO as a factor.)
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Johan, I have a suggested work-around, a pseudo-S-mode.
Use Manual Mode with Auto-ISO turned on. Dial in your desired fixed Speed and fixed Aperture, then Auto-ISO will work to set the proper exposure. You can switch to any of the continuous fps modes and the Speed and Aperture settings will not change for any of the 6/10/20/30/60 fps settings. If the light does not change, then the original setting chosen by Auto-ISO will also not change. It may go up or down by a fractional stop if the light is variable.
(In good light Auto-ISO may not be needed if you choose the initial ISO wisely.)
I tested this Manual Auto-ISO mode at all continuous frame settings and got no changes in steady light.
Thanks Andrea for your effort!
It is a good suggestion. I also noted that the problem seems to be isolated to S-mode.
To be honest, only recently have I started to use Auto-ISO. Probably just because Auto-ISO was never part of the equation when I learned photography. And my first Nikon DSLRs, the D1H and the D2H, were not very good at higher ISOs. The Nikon 1 cameras are not great either but with good software it is possible to get descent picture at surprisingly high ISO.
/Johan
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One possibility is that the aperture simply doesn't have time to close down that deep and open up at those fps rates (20). At even faster fps settings the camera probably keeps the aperture stopped down during the burst. But if manual mode does allow the correct settings without exception then I can't think of a reason why it would work in this way in S mode. Unless S mode requires wide open between shots to measure the light and M mode does not?
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As the aperture is controlled electronically, it shouldn't matter whether the iris actually is closed down or not for light metering. Wide-open metering confers better accuracy, though, but that isn't an issue here.
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Since the aperture blades are physical they still take a finite time to move. On Sony SLT cameras there are limitations in availability of the highest fps settings depending on aperture selected and whether AF is to be tracking between shots in a burst. Here is some discussion:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4070345
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If movement of the blades was a limitation, random f-numbers should be achieved. Here the difference for the out-of-order cases is precisely 2 stops all the time.
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One possibility is that the aperture simply doesn't have time to close down that deep and open up at those fps rates (20). At even faster fps settings the camera probably keeps the aperture stopped down during the burst. But if manual mode does allow the correct settings without exception then I can't think of a reason why it would work in this way in S mode. Unless S mode requires wide open between shots to measure the light and M mode does not?
As far as can tell the aperture will lock to whatever value was chosen at the beginning of the sequence. If the light changes during the series the aperture does not change.
When I try to let the speed or the ISO be the variable instead (A-mode or Auto ISO) the exposure will change depending on the light.
I guess it is easier to make a change in a value that is electronically controlled only. Changing the aperture meanse to physically move the aperture and at such high frequences there is no time to do this.
I don't find this limitation so much of a problem. Especially since I can let the camera change the ISO automatically.
/Johan
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One possibility is that the aperture simply doesn't have time to close down that deep and open up at those fps rates (20). At even faster fps settings the camera probably keeps the aperture stopped down during the burst. But if manual mode does allow the correct settings without exception then I can't think of a reason why it would work in this way in S mode. Unless S mode requires wide open between shots to measure the light and M mode does not?
The data seems to suggest it is a firmware problem.
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The data seems to suggest it is a firmware problem.
My thought, and hope, as well.
If this turns out to be hardware related there is absolutely no way Nikon is going to fix it. That is, if this problem exists in every V3. That is at this moment unclear. Sofar nobody has come back and told me clearly that their V3 can set small apertures at 10fps and 20 fps.
However, if my camera was one of the early ones manufactured and Nikon discovered the problem and fixed it on later models there is still hope. There might be spare parts that can be used.
I don't know much about manufacturing of high tech electronics but I assume that this kind of thing is not possible to buy at your nearest Radio Shack. These are highly specialized boards manufactured to exact specifications in limited numbers. And we all know what happened to DL...
Thanks to all of you for your interest in my problem!
I just sent a message, one more of many, to Nikon Support reporting the confirmation I got here plus one confirmation I got from a Facebook group (Nikon 1 Enthusiasts).
I will keep you posted about this.
/Johan
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My AW1 (the waterproof Nikon 1) also has this S-mode bug when set to 15fps.
At the other settings of S, 5, 30 and 60 fps there is no change to the aperture setting.
Here are my basic settings and one data sample.
ISO 6400. WB Auto. Matrix Metering. AF-S. AF Single Point.
S 1/250" f/8
5fps 1/250" f/8
15fps 1/250" f/5.6 OVEREXPOSED
30fps 1/250" f/8
60fps 1/250" f/8
Again, the Workaround is to use Manual Mode with Auto-ISO (as mentioned above). I would suggest using the A800 Auto-ISO to restrict ISO changes to between 160-800. If you are choosing your initial Speed and Aperture settings carefully according to the ambient light, then you should not expect to see much ISO variation. Once you have tested your settings, then while remaining in Manual/Auto-ISO mode, you can select any of the continous fps settings and the aperture will remain fixed. (Well, unless the light changes, of course. 8) )
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My AW1 (the waterproof Nikon 1) also has this S-mode bug when set to 15fps.
At the other settings of S, 5, 30 and 60 fps there is no change to the aperture setting.
Here are my basic settings and one data sample.
ISO 6400. WB Auto. Matrix Metering. AF-S. AF Single Point.
S 1/250" f/8
5fps 1/250" f/8
15fps 1/250" f/5.6 OVEREXPOSED
30fps 1/250" f/8
60fps 1/250" f/8
Again, the Workaround is to use Manual Mode with Auto-ISO (as mentioned above). I would suggest using the A800 Auto-ISO to restrict ISO changes to between 160-800. If you are choosing your initial Speed and Aperture settings carefully according to the ambient light, then you should not expect to see much ISO variation. Once you have tested your settings, then while remaining in Manual/Auto-ISO mode, you can select any of the continous fps settings and the aperture will remain fixed. (Well, unless the light changes, of course. 8) )
Thanks for checking this out. Personally I would like to hear someone with a J5 try it.
I got another confirmed user seeing the same thing from the Facebook user group.
I am pretty sure all V3s have this problem. Nobody has come back saying that their V3 CAN set the correct aperture at 10 fps and 20 fps.
Maybe someone thinks "What is the big fuss about?"
Well, it's true I can manage to get around it. I just don't like being told to read the manual in a rather condenscending manner. So the first objective is to get Nikon to rekognize the problem.
Which I am sure they eventually will do.
/Johan
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My AW1 (the waterproof Nikon 1) also has this S-mode bug when set to 15fps.
At the other settings of S, 5, 30 and 60 fps there is no change to the aperture setting.
Confirmed problem at 15fps with AW1 in S-mode, but only if aperture is set above f/5.6. The funny thing is that the AW1 apparently "knows" that it is doing something wrong and not exposing correctly, as f/5.6 is blinking when this happens. Tested with 50mm f/1.8 and FT-1 that happened to be mounted.
I think this must be the first time I ever used my AW1 in S mode...
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Quick update.
Nikon got back to me today and the camera will go back to them.
Meanwhile I have had a few more responding that they can see the same thing.
I only have a V1 and a V3 to check.
AW1 has the problem and one person has confirmed that the V2 has a similar problem as well.
If I get a chance I will check out a J5 to see if it is fixed there.
Will let you know as soon as I get more information from Nikon.
On the whole, Nikon cameras has given me very few problems over the years. Big reason for me to keep using them. And the few times I have had them serviced it has been well done.
/Johan
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The V2 follows the pattern from the AW1, only in 15 FPS it won't use smaller aperture than 5.6, but it blinks with the value.
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My J4 has the same problem at 10 and 20 FPS in S and P mode.
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My J4 has the same problem at 10 and 20 FPS in S and P mode.
Thanks for checking!
Another modell added to the list.
In all honesty I never thought to check my camera in P mode. It is a mode I never use myself.
My camera is going back. It was supposed to be picked up yesterday but the shipping company never came to my house. Hopefully they will find the way here on Monday.
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I never use it either but testing is testing. Engineer's culture 😃
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An update.
My camera went back to Nikon. They were finally convinced that something was not proper. Main board changed and the camera came back.
When I tested it I very quickly discovered that absolutely nothing had changed. Well, except that the number of exposures were reset to zero.
As far as "fixing" the original problem nothing was accomplished.
This is my theory:
At 6 fps there is enough time between exposures to allow for continues autofocus. At 10 fps and 20 fps continual autofocus is only possible if the aperture is restricted to f1/5.6 or larger. When we get to 30 fps and 60 fps we lose continous autofocus and wherever focus was at the beginning of the sequence it will remain. It is just technical limitation that is not mentioned in the manual. And it seems that it is not even known among Nikon service staff.
I can deal with a limitation. Thanks to Auto-ISO it is not that hard to get good exposures. What surprises me is that it doesn't seem to be known. If Nikon decides to change the main board of the camera it must mean that they also believed there was something wrong. I have no complaints to Nikon service. I believe they were as much in the dark as I was.
Thanks to everybody who tried to help me! I will now resume my regular activity. Focus on the pictures.
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JP, I'm late in responding, but thank you for this update. I was very curious about this. I agree that Nikon service probably doesn't know about this. Gotta wonder why, but it happens I suppose.
I'm happy the Manual mode + Auto-ISO is useful to you as a work-around.
I will now resume my regular activity. Focus on the pictures.
The most fun thing to do in any case. ;D ;D ;D