NikonGear'23

Gear Talk => Processing & Publication => Topic started by: MFloyd on January 30, 2017, 19:56:48

Title: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: MFloyd on January 30, 2017, 19:56:48
Given the utterly complex process for producing and processing, it is quite unlikely that we will see a rebirth of Kodachrome.  It was one of my preferred film in the "good old days".

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/200/505237198_40911ea24c_d.jpg)

On the market there exists some LUTs (Look Up Tables) / presets which imitate the very particular colour palette of this film http://blog.gavingough.com/blog/2016/7/18/kodachromepresets

It is clearly stated that this is only an approximation.  I'm wondering if some of us have tried this.

Kodak presented the very last roll of Kodachrome to Steve McCurry, National Geographic made a documentary about it:
https://youtu.be/DUL6MBVKVLI
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on January 30, 2017, 20:42:03
Now, that is a film I'm happy to see go - hopefully, for good. Vastly overrated sharpness, bad colours, and to top it all, almost impossible to scan.
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: pluton on January 30, 2017, 21:21:45
I liked it...the 25 version..it allowed a 1/125 at f/8 in our bright California sunlight.  But I don't miss ASA/ANSI/ISO 25.  I strongly preferred the "cold blue" skies that Kodachrome produced to the alternative Ektachrome. 
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: MFloyd on January 30, 2017, 21:25:48
@Bjørn: Haha, your statement, this is outright passion.  And coming from a "false color" lover ..... 😉
@Pluton: I prefer the 64 ASA version
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on January 30, 2017, 21:40:19
My favourite all-round film, all formats up to the largest sheet film for my biggest view cameras, was Fuji Provia 100. Acceptable speed, very subtle and rounded colours, and very fine grain and sharpness. It also scans beautifully.
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: MILLIREHM on January 30, 2017, 22:01:10
Still got 2 rolls of Kodachrome 25 in the fridge- now impossible to develop ;-)
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: MILLIREHM on January 30, 2017, 22:06:02
BTW did anyone here ever try to scan Kodachrome slides with Silver Fast and calibration with Kodachrome IT8 Target?
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: CS on January 30, 2017, 22:52:28
Still got 2 rolls of Kodachrome 25 in the fridge- now impossible to develop ;-)

Well, maybe impossible is a bit strong if one is adventurous!   ;)

 http://tinyurl.com/gmszdou   
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: Akira on January 31, 2017, 01:04:10
KM had been my favorite film for more than 15 years.  One of the bigger reasons for my switch to medium format was the discontinuation of Kodachrome.  For my MF cameras, I liked Fuji ASTIA shot at ISO 125, which gave me similar tone and color of KM set at ISO 80 (and shot at 1/60 or faster).
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: pluton on January 31, 2017, 05:19:28
Still got 2 rolls of Kodachrome 25 in the fridge- now impossible to develop ;-)
You can develop Kodachrome in regular monochrome developers and get a mono negative, complete with dark reddish dye tint.
I can see the promo:  "Extinct film yields mysterious photos"
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: richardHaw on January 31, 2017, 06:15:35
My favourite all-round film, all formats up to the largest sheet film for my biggest view cameras, was Fuji Provia 100. Acceptable speed, very subtle and rounded colours, and very fine grain and sharpness. It also scans beautifully.

i also love Provia :o :o :o

Kodachrome has always been expensive for me. back then and even now.
Kodachrome for me is the color magazine spread look.
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: Ethan on January 31, 2017, 08:10:18
Still got 2 rolls of Kodachrome 25 in the fridge- now impossible to develop ;-)

Here you go:

http://www.peak-imaging.com/htmls/film_processing.htm

Kodachrome was the bread and butter standard for neg photography. I still have rolls of Kodachrome lying around and even some waiting in cameras which I need to get round one day and do something about it.

Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: MILLIREHM on January 31, 2017, 09:24:09
Well, maybe impossible is a bit strong if one is adventurous!   ;)

 http://tinyurl.com/gmszdou
To be more precise: I know that it can be developed in B&W, but there is no more K14 color development.

Thankx:
This link is very interesting but not something where i would go for. And even the author said that he is approximating but not fully getting Kodachrome like results
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: MILLIREHM on January 31, 2017, 09:26:54
Here you go:

http://www.peak-imaging.com/htmls/film_processing.htm

Kodachrome was the bread and butter standard for neg photography.

Considered Kodachrome as for slide  film photography, thanks for this link

Provia was also a good film


To the honest  I am quite satisfied with my digital bodies and the advances this technology brought with it. I wouldnt want to fully go back to film.
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: MFloyd on January 31, 2017, 16:05:00
I loaded the presets from Gavin Gough (GG) http://blog.gavingough.com/blog/2016/7/18/kodachromepresets .  Here a comparison between a normal post-processed picture and the same with GG's preset and D5 calibration for Kodachrome 64; Kodachrome 64 is on the right.

Give me your thoughts (before I share mine):
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: Matthew Currie on January 31, 2017, 16:52:22
It's been some time since I scanned slides, but I agree that Provia was one of the nicest films to do, Velvia 50 one of the hardest.  Sensia, the less carefully made amateur equivalent to Provia, scanned nicely too. 

I always had a perverse fondness for Velvia 100F, which many people hate for its poor rendition of bright colors.  I liked the way it did earth tones.  Good stuff if you spend a lot of time looking down!

I loved slides, but don't much miss the tediousness of scanning.

I'm obviously not a color conoisseur anyway, but I was not hugely impressed by the Kodachrome presets in the link below, but with the change in EV and white balance added, it's hard to tell what part the Kodachrome preset is playing, as the thing one notices first is the change in exposure.
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: pluton on January 31, 2017, 22:16:41
I loaded the presets from Gavin Gough (GG) http://blog.gavingough.com/blog/2016/7/18/kodachromepresets .  Here a comparison between a normal post-processed picture and the same with GG's preset and D5 calibration for Kodachrome 64; Kodachrome 64 is on the right.

Give me your thoughts (before I share mine):

I see the rendering of blue has been shifted away from cyan, and toward a 'colder' hue, which is a Kodachrome-like tendency.  It appears that the saturation has been increased, which is not a Kodachrome property.  I always found that Kodachrome 25 rendered saturated colors saturated, but pale colors pale.
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: MFloyd on January 31, 2017, 22:43:53
Keith, this is Kodachrome 64.

Hereunder:
- first row: left: Kodachrome 25; right 64 (same picture as before on the right)
- second row: original (same picture as before on the left)

Again with the Gavin Gough presets.
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: Akira on January 31, 2017, 23:35:11
A friend of mine attended one of the lectures offered by Fuji for the X series camera users told me that the lecturer had disclosed that "Classic Chrome" of the film simulation mode in the current Fuji X series cameras to be actually the simulation of Kodachrome whose implementation was officially allowed by Kodak.  I'm not sure whether it is of KM or KR, though.

The older models like X-T1 and even X-E2 are now added with the Classic Chrome item to the film simulation menu via firmware 3.0.
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: MILLIREHM on February 01, 2017, 08:47:49
A friend of mine attended one of the lectures offered by Fuji for the X series camera users told me that the lecturer had disclosed that "Classic Chrome" of the film simulation mode in the current Fuji X series cameras to be actually the simulation of Kodachrome whose implementation was officially allowed by Kodak.  I'm not sure whether it is of KM or KR, though.

The older models like X-T1 and even X-E2 are now added with the Classic Chrome item to the film simulation menu via firmware 3.0.

Interesting. If a nostalgia wave is up to increase we might se more of these features
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: MFloyd on February 01, 2017, 11:14:50
Does somebody has some Kodachrome scans ? It would be interesting to see and compare.
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: Les Olson on February 01, 2017, 13:40:53
Scepticism about slide film emulation is appropriate, IMO, because simulating a transparency is not the same as simulating a print.  There are a number of quirks of the human visual system that make the effect of transmitted light quite different to reflected light. 

The Bezold-Brucke effect is the observation that the perceived hue of light changes with its luminance, so that at higher luminance blues and reds shift away from yellow and green.  The Hunt and Stevens effects are the observation that perceived colourfulness and contrast increase with luminance.  The Bartelson-Breneman effect is the observation that perceived contrast is affected by the luminance of the surround, which is why images intended for viewing in dark environments, such as slides (and movies) need higher contrast than print images. 

All of these effects were familiar to the people who put stained glass windows in medieval cathedrals (it is an urban myth that we have lost the ability to reproduce the colours of medieval stained glass: we just can't reproduce in a print the visual effect of transmitted light in a near dark cathedral).  The upshot is that an image on slide film viewed on a light table looks quite different to a print on paper taken from the same slide.   
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: Matthew Currie on February 01, 2017, 16:43:11
Does somebody has some Kodachrome scans ? It would be interesting to see and compare.
I have a few which I'll see if I can hunt down later, but remember that the process of digitizing can change things too, especially as Kodachrome was not the easiest stuff to scan.  And of course it can depend on the scanner too. 

I have an old Nikon Coolscan IVED, which did a nice job for the most part, but at some point in the process of getting from a slide to the screen,  some changes occurred that I could never seem to get back. Most of the time it was unimportant - exactly what shade of brown is in a leaf or a tree trunk may have little effect if the point of the image is not the color anyway.  But in particular, certain deep reds in a slide, even when tweaked every which way, never quite came out the same - either a little orange or a little purple, or a little this or that, often very nice in the end, but never exactly what the slide said - and that's from someone who generally has little concern over the finest gradations of color.  I recall a lusciously custom painted motorcycle that I struggled over for a long time, and never got right, and an antique fire engine the same.  I just resigned myself to seeing some things in the world as being in out-of-gamut red.
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: charlie on February 01, 2017, 17:08:01
Does somebody has some Kodachrome scans ? It would be interesting to see and compare.

I have a bunch of Kodachrome from the 60's & 70's, haven't scanned much of it but I did do a couple test scans comparing software on another thread: http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php/topic,2346.msg28773.html#msg28773

Scanned with an Epson V700 which is not calibrated. If I remember correctly the colors looked pretty similar on screen compared to viewing the slides. These may not be the best photos for color comparisons, but its something. If I find the time I'll try and scan some more.

Thanks for sharing the link, I love Kodachrome colors.
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: MFloyd on February 01, 2017, 17:17:39
thank you Charlie !
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: pluton on February 01, 2017, 20:16:53
Les makes an excellent point.  I shot Kodachrome as a hobbyist, rarely having prints made.  Once Kodachrome shots were printed by high quality labs, or scanned and printed in magazines and books, the look was highly variable. 
All the digital film simulations I've seen bear little resemblance to my experience with the films, but they might perfectly embody another operator's impressions of using the same film product.
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: MILLIREHM on February 01, 2017, 20:19:59
Les makes an excellent point.  I shot Kodachrome as a hobbyist, rarely having prints made.  Once Kodachrome shots were printed by high quality labs, or scanned and printed in magazines and books, the look was highly variable. 


Rarely had prints made. The best quality, but also with a unique and very special look were the Cibachrome prints. They had become unavailable long time before Kodachrome was phased out. In both procedures the chemistry had not been to environmentally benign
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: pluton on February 02, 2017, 02:57:32
The best prints I'd seen were type-c prints made using a 4x5" internegative.  Very expensive.
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: David H. Hartman on February 05, 2017, 22:17:04
My favourite all-round film, all formats up to the largest sheet film for my biggest view cameras, was Fuji Provia 100. Acceptable speed, very subtle and rounded colours, and very fine grain and sharpness. It also scans beautifully.

I liked Kodachrome but switched to Provia 100. I did not like Velvia. I was far too contrasty and saturation was over the top.

I understand that at some point Kodachrome's chemistry was changed to make it more environmentally friendly and this changed the color rendition.

I'd like old Tri-X back when the H&D curve had a hump at Zone VI. I'd also like Super-XX 4142 in 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10. I haven't shot film since I bought my first dSLR.

Dave Hartman
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: MILLIREHM on February 05, 2017, 22:43:57
I liked Kodachrome but switched to Provia 100. I did not like Velvia. I was far too contrasty and saturation was over the top.

I understand that at some point Kodachrome's chemistry was changed to make it more environmentally friendly and this changed the color rendition.


Dave Hartman

AFAIK Kodachrome II had more silver in it, thus some photographers saw the switch to K64, K25 as downgrade. Dont know whether the K14 chemistry then was facing other changes
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: David H. Hartman on February 07, 2017, 03:23:22
...Kodachrome II had more silver in it, thus some photographers saw the switch to K64, K25 as downgrade...

I don't know for specifically but less sounds likely to me. There were reductions in silver in B&W papers. There were many downgrades.

One upgrade was the grain in Tri-X. I mean Tri-X before it lost the hump at Zone VI.

Does anyone remember the Hunt brothers? I wish I believed in hell. I'd like to picture them there. :)

Dave
Title: Re: Kodachrome nostalgia
Post by: MFloyd on February 08, 2017, 11:03:05
(1) Picture, taken in the early days of digital imaging (Canon Digital Ixus), and now re-processed with Kodachrome 25 presets.  Mount Sinai, July 2002;
(2) Photo taken with modern gear (Nikon D610, Micro Nikkor 105mm f/2.8) of a vintage stereo camera with Kodachrome 64 presets.