NikonGear'23
Images => Life, the Universe & Everything Else => Topic started by: Airy on September 21, 2016, 22:01:00
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parce que nous regardons, non point aux choses visibles, mais à celles qui sont invisibles; car les choses visibles sont passagères, et les invisibles sont éternelles. (2 Cor 4:18)
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
...uns, die wir nicht sehen auf das Sichtbare, sondern auf das Unsichtbare. Denn was sichtbar ist, das ist zeitlich; was aber unsichtbar ist, das ist ewig.
Sound track : Messiaen, les choses visibles et invisibles (Messse de la Pentecôte : Offertoire)
Now that makes photography feel vain ;)
I thought especially Frank F. and Akira S. would like the argument.
Ettore Fruscoloni, a friend from senior high times and passionate amateur photographer, set up a photo club and advanced courses in studio photography, spreading the enthusiasm. The last exhibition he set up in Rome was quite successful, dealing with a particularly painful subject: Auschwitz.
He passed away today, after a one-year desperate fight against a particularly nasty cancer. I last met him in August, together with two other schoolfriends. The shot is from today's crop, as usual.
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Sorry to learn of the passing of your alumnus, Airy. I remembered some of my alumni who had passed away over the years.
Instead of going into YouTube, I pulled out my CD of the recording of Messse de la Pentecôte by Jennifer Bate.
For whatever reason, I feel your image fits really well with the piece of the music you selected. The gradation in the background suggests the contrast, or better, the seamless transition between the visible and the invisible (which can be translated "life and death" or "mortal and immortal"). The flower captured in a very shallow DOF represents the ephemeral existence.
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You touched me. Hugs.
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Akira, you got it... the shot was just made "en passant", I like close-up shots with wide apertures. I had several variants for the background. It is only during the post processing that the association came to my mind, for the very reasons you mention.
Ettore, at least in his younger years, confessed to be a "menefreghista" - colloquial italian for "not caring about religion", but at the same time he was a Mr. Nice Guy with very high moral standards and socio-political engagement. He spent his life exploring the visible world with his Nikon (!) and this is how, maybe, the association came.
Frank, that piece of organ music is for you. To be heard in the dark (my best experience was during a live performance, by a pupil of Master Louis Thiry in Rouen)
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I have a piece of music for you. Touching. Moving. Very different from what you would expect.
Graindelavoix.org
This will enchant you
Lift you up
Nothing sweet about it
Full of joy of improvisation
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I know this ensemble (from the record "La Magdalena") but not this record. Thanks for the hint.
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I know this ensemble (from the record "La Maddalena") but not this record. Thanks for the hint.
I heard them on the radio. Loved them in seconds. Visit their page. I got the record on day one.
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Touching story. Delicate shot.
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Airy. I tried to buy the album. Yet. There are several interpretations. Which would you recommend. Which organist?
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The "Messe de la pentecôte" is no easy listening. I'd recommend, maybe, the recording by Naji Hakim at the Trinité organ (Jade records) if you can find it. Otherwise, maybe the more recent one by Olivier Latry at Notre-Dame (DG). Those organs have enough "spirit" (like old whisky) to convey the composer's intentions. Modern German organs are often too dry, and may be more suitable for more speculative works with complex writing such as the Livre d'Orgue (outstanding record by Almut Rössler at the Neanderkirche, Düsseldorf, Schwann/Koch)
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I've found the complete Messiaen organ music collection by Olivier Latry (DGG). I wonder if it is worth purchasing in addition to the box set by Jennifer Bate...
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Latry is 32 Euro. I can get it now. Hear and play our old but renovated and newly intonated organ at St Johan Baptiste and you will be healed from spiritless German Organs. Klais is special.
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Naji Hakim. 18 Euros. Paris Trinity.
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I remembered that I had Messiaen's original performance of Pentecôte.
The problem is that the very high portion of the organ is cut abruptly during the passage of hight notes, probably due to the 20kHz limit of the CD. Need to find some hi-res sources.
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parce que nous regardons, non point aux choses visibles, mais à celles qui sont invisibles; car les choses visibles sont passagères, et les invisibles sont éternelles. (2 Cor 4:18)
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Sorry for your loss.
As for the visibles and invisibles. Vous serais bien de noter que l'invisible est simplement inexistant and in English; things which are not seen are inexistent ..... they are simply futile stoning power of mind control.
Nevermind that there is an inherent contradiction in seeing the unseen as at best it would be prophetysing.
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Things that are unlit cannot be seen, but do exist. Not a matter of creed.
Feelings are unseen but nevertheless exist.
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Latry is 32 Euro. I can get it now. Hear and play our old but renovated and newly intonated organ at St Johan Baptiste and you will be healed from spiritless German Organs. Klais is special.
I referred to post-WWII "orgelbewegte" organs, which I played and enjoyed a lot. Of course the Sauer organ at the Bremer Dom (which I also played) was a completely different breed, as are the Klais organs from the thirties, a good example of which is preserved in S. Salvator, Brugge (but might not survive the pending restoration). But these are now in a minority, and were often in a poor condition when I had the opportunity to see them (in the eighties).
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Things that are unlit cannot be seen, but do exist. Not a matter of creed.
They physically exist when lit...which means measurable.
Feelings are unseen but nevertheless exist.
They exist in a metaphorical sense and in a scientific test, they can and are measured in Lab test.
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I remembered that I had Messiaen's original performance of Pentecôte.
The problem is that the very high portion of the organ is cut abruptly during the passage of hight notes, probably due to the 20kHz limit of the CD. Need to find some hi-res sources.
You do not even need to reach to 20kHz to render an organ. mp3 files are cut off at 15kHz and that works. The original Messiaen recordings, from the fifties, are mono and have a restricted bandwidth. I had a few LPs showing the same issue. The interpretation is still "unique" and, unlike some critics, I think Messiaen was enough of a virtuoso to play his own pieces. But for a first listening experience, I prefer to recommend more recent recordings, and the only one at the Trinité is a composite integral recording (Hakim, Thiry, Bate and others) from about 1995, Jade records. At the same time, the whole was played in a series of recitals, and this is where I experienced the "Livre d'Orgue" impeccably played by Thiry (blind, with a mutilated left hand following his playing with a handgranate as a teenager), so I can assure that at least his interpretation must be widely exempt from editing.
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Note - my illustrating a picture with quotes from the scriptures should not be understood as religious propaganda (off topic here). The association came spontaneously to my mind, as I am a well-read olod guy, but certainly not a believer.
Almass, for aforementioned reason, I am not going to argue about faith (not my cup of tea) nor quantum mechanics (I got a master in physics). But in any case thanks for your first expressed condolences.
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Things that are unlit cannot be seen, but do exist. Not a matter of creed.
There are also things that do not exist, but can be seen, and handled - the square root of -1, for example. Roland Barthes said that what is distinctive about photography is that you cannot photograph something that does not exist; the question is whether he was right.
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There are limits to perception, some are physical some are by talent, some are by training.
Basic logic applied:
1) we cannot know what is beyond the limits of our perception, just guess, just speculate
2) we cannot "see" (pars pro toto for "percieve") what others see, not even know, just guess, just speculate
That is what makes photography so fascinating for me: I visit a place with other photographers and they "see" a very different place.
With a camera they can "show" what they "see" only limited by physics, talent and training:
You are out there
You and your camera
You can shoot or
not shoot
as you please
discover the world
your world
show it to us
or
we might never see it
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Nicely put.
Today I'll stay at home, but the Df will not idle around.
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Airy, thanks for the advice. I found Louis Thiry recordings but only as used (Calliope label) and priced too highly (around 150 USD. I'd wait for a re-release.
I also have a newer recording by Messiaen ("Meditations sur le Mystere de la Sainte Trinite" released from Erato in 1972).
Here in Tokyo, it has been raining since yesterday. We've had a couple of typhoons consecutively, and I've had no chance to go out with the camera for a week or so...
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Akira: try to browse not only your home ebay / amazon but also the foreign ones. That is how I found many books and records either at all or much cheaper than at my ".de"-versions
ebay.fr or ebay.co.uk can be your friend in this case, same with amazon.
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Airy
Sorry for your loss
a beautiful way to remember a passionate amateur photographer
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There are also things that do not exist, but can be seen, and handled - the square root of -1, for example. Roland Barthes said that what is distinctive about photography is that you cannot photograph something that does not exist; the question is whether he was right.
I can see the typographic representation of the square root of -1, but not the thing itself (the signifiant, but not the signifié, as Barthes would say). Can you ? ;)
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Akira: try to browse not only your home ebay / amazon but also the foreign ones. That is how I found many books and records either at all or much cheaper than at my ".de"-versions
ebay.fr or ebay.co.uk can be your friend in this case, same with amazon.
Frank, thanks for your advice. Yes, I usually go between Japanese, USA, German, UK and French amazons and use ebay.com. I've found Jade one "still sealed" on ebay.com. For whatever reason, I haven't used any local auction sites.
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The Jade one...
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Excellent buy. Should also inspire your photography :)
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Thanks! It surely will!
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I see the composer himself played this. Fascnating.
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No, the shot is indeed the composer at his organ, but the CDs have been recorded about 15 years later by a bunch of Messiaen Specialists (Jennifer Bate, Louis Thiry, Thomas Daniel Schlee, Hans-Ola Ericsson, Naji Hakim who was the 'organiste titulaire' by that time, and Jon Gillock).
The organ was then, and since 1985, in a much better condition than Messiaen had ever experienced : the pipes had to suffer during the transformations in the fifties or early sixties (I remember a concert around 1976; the organ sounded as if the pipes had been trimmed for loudness, pipe feet were probably too open). In 1985, the voicing was brought back to good old Cavaillé-Coll manners, certainly closer to what Messiaen had in the thirties, while the numerous additional stops and the enclosed division at the Positif (second manual) were kept. Messiaen also wished a few more stops that were never added. Not really useful, the organ being quite rich and complete.
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I can see the typographic representation of the square root of -1, but not the thing itself (the signifiant, but not the signifié, as Barthes would say). Can you ? ;)
No, but one could say the same of any number. No one can see the number 4, only its typographical representation or groups of four things. The case of i is the same as e and pi: one can only see the typographical representation, not groups of e or pi or i things.
There are people with number-colour synesthesia who see numbers, but I do not know how they see imaginary numbers - although it is reported that if you show them Roman numerals they do not see them as coloured, so in that case it seems not to be the conceptual number that triggers the colour perception; on the other hand Messiaen had tone-colour synesthesia, and he said that he saw colour not only when he heard music but when he read scores.
You can visualise a table, but you are only visualising an example, as when you visualise "four" as a group of oranges. The whole point is that there is no such thing as "the thing itself". To shift to another signifier that is causing trouble at the moment, can you see the signifie' of "medium format camera"? Is this what you had in mind? It used 120 film (620, but it is the same size) and produced the same size negative as a Hasselblad. You could just as well visualise the signifie' of "medium format camera" more like David Bailey, circa 1962 (the leg is Jean Shrimpton's). Which signifie' are Fuji and Hasselblad selling?
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Les, Akira, Armando, John, Airy. Whenever I exchange thought and picture with you I feel there is still hope for our species. Such cultivated deep friendly exchange.
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Frank, that is exactly what makes this forum special.
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I just found something that blows me away, again! :::: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_2OnhEB-8E
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Indeed. "Polyphony" in the true sense of the word, nearly dizzying. And what a bass, albeit not russian-style.
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You can visualise a table, but you are only visualising an example, as when you visualise "four" as a group of oranges. The whole point is that there is no such thing as "the thing itself".
"Table" is indeed a slightly fuzzy concept. I got a small foldable round table in my garden, but my rabbit thinks it is some resting place for him ;) see attachment.
On the other hand, the number pi is much less fuzzy a concept which I dare call a real "thing", namely the ratio between circumference and diameter in any euclidian space (i.e. when gravity is low to moderate). To me it is something very real, though immaterial and invisible.
Df, 50/1.8G at f/5.0
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Poor rabbit is freezing wet
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And to bring you back to heat, take this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYxjExAefj4
21 pilots
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Poor rabbit is freezing wet
Nope. Mild late summer morning, only the table being wet from night rain. Rabbit dwells in loghouse.
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I just found something that blows me away, again! :::: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_2OnhEB-8E
I dug out my old CD of Notre Dame music by Machaut recorded in 1988 by Deller Consort. It is still fascinating, but apparently it is more "arranged": the Triplum voice is enhanced by a double reed instrument.
As with the case of archeology, there have been new discoveries in the world of older music over the years. So, it would be interesting to look for newer recordings.
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I dug out my old CD of Notre Dame music by Machaut recorded in 1988 by Deller Consort. It is still fascinating, but apparently it is more "arranged": the Triplum voice is enhanced by a double reed instrument.
As with the case of archeology, there have been new discoveries in the world of older music over the years. So, it would be interesting to look for newer recordings.
They sure do it very differently
In my eyes amazingly differently
touchingly
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"Table" is indeed a slightly fuzzy concept. I got a small foldable round table in my garden, but my rabbit thinks it is some resting place for him ;) see attachment.
On the other hand, the number pi is much less fuzzy a concept which I dare call a real "thing", namely the ratio between circumference and diameter in any euclidian space (i.e. when gravity is low to moderate). To me it is something very real, though immaterial and invisible.
Sure, the concept of pi is precise in a way that the concept of "table" is not, but precision is not always a virtue: the fuzziness of a concept such as "human" is what enables us to see commonality despite difference.
"Very real, though immaterial and invisible" is exactly how spiritual people would describe what they believe in. The difference between the concept of pi or the concept of i and the concept of Zeus Olympios is not whether those concepts can be visualised, or even whether they describe anything real, but whether they can be used to do useful things - in the case of i, solve problems about AC electrical circuits, eg.
Philosophers tend to suppose that the reason we want a theory of something - ethics, eg - is to explain why we are right about the things we believe - to answer the question Why is it wrong to steal? Philosophers are wrong: the reason we want a theory is to tell us things we don't know. The problem with Ptolemy's theory of planetary motion was not that it did not explain the observations but that it could not tell us how to make new observations. In the same way, Intelligent Design can explain every observation the Theory of Evolution can explain. What makes Intelligent Design inferior to the Theory of Evolution is not that Intelligent Design can't, eg, explain anti-microbial resistance - it can - but that it cannot tell us what to do about it, and the Theory of Evolution can.
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The JADE arrived today. I will listen to "Messse de la Pentecôte" in a second. Then sleep. Later write.
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Frank, enjoy your CD and have a good sleep!
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Sound track : Messiaen, les choses visibles et invisibles (Messse de la Pentecôte : Offertoire)
Now. Playing.
Very emotional. Very intellectual too. Mussorgsky on Acid. Does not sound like something priests would choose for a sunday mass. Very different.
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"Mussorgsky on acid" : well heard and said.
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"Mussorgsky on acid" : well heard and said.
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I like Mussorgsky very much. I looked up Messianes biography. Listed are Debussy and Stravinsky as major influences esp. Debussy.
He paints pictures in my head so kindof transfers his synestetics to me as a listener. Yet the pictures are not Sunday mass compatible, more of the Hieronymus Bosch kind of pictures. Very intense, sin at their center, doubt, hopelesness, the abbys, dirt and color, William Turner blood red skies ....
Interesting. Have to listen on one of the more sofisticated audio systems in our house...
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I looked up Messianes biography. Listed are Debussy and Stravinsky as major influences esp. Debussy.
Apparacion de l'Eglise Eternelle reminds me of La Cathédrale engloutie (just the title perhaps)...
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Messiaen being, perhaps above all, an organist, Saint-Saens is also a very important influence.
Moussorgsky is an interesting comparison: some people have suggested that Messiaen has a strong affinity with Russian ways of feeling because of his ecstatic mysticism and lack of the urbanity and wit that is usually thought to be typical of French music (Messiaen founded a group dedicated to rejecting "frivolity" in music, and Satie in particular).
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If I remember correctly, Messiaen's graduation thesis was Rite of Spring by Stravinsky.
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If I remember correctly, Messiaen's graduation thesis was Rite of Spring by Stravinsky.
Yes there is some resemblence, yet for my ear Stravinsky is very much about the intensity of undertones while Mussorgsky does never surpress the brutality and aggression of noise up to a point of physically hurting the instrument or the listener. For me Stravinsky is more on a psychologically threatening path while Mussorgsky is more of the concrete real kind. Blood is Blood with Mussorgsky. Blood is playing tricks with my mind with Stravinsky. Love them both. Sacre de printemps gets softer the more I listen to it. Pictures of an exhibition holds its position while I develop.
Messiaen has to proove over time yet. I guess the piercing sonds and stron forte parts will hold their position over time.
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Apparition du Messiaen.
The CD has been sealed for two decades!
I've only listened to "Les choses visibles et invisible", but was amazed by the combinations of stops Naji Hakim had chosen.
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May pictures flourish after your listening.
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I sincerely hope so. Thank you again for the recommendation.
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Akira, if you are aware of this, then I tender my most humble of apologies in advance.
However some CDs are packaged in the factory with protective packaging next to the label which can decompose over time and attack both the label and then reflective surface of the CD (i.e. the surface just under the label) that they were originally designed to protect. If storing valuable CDs for posterity, it might pay you to check this out. Unfortunately it would require the package to be opened, which might lower its value to a collector/investor. A Catch22 situation I concede.
Apparition du Messiaen.
The CD has been sealed for two decades!
I've only listened to "Les choses visibles et invisible", but was amazed by the combinations of stops Naji Hakim had chosen.
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Akira, if you are aware of this, then I tender my most humble of apologies in advance.
However some CDs are packaged in the factory with protective packaging next to the label which can decompose over time and attack both the label and then reflective surface of the CD (i.e. the surface just under the label) that they were originally designed to protect. If storing valuable CDs for posterity, it might pay you to check this out. Unfortunately it would require the package to be opened, which might lower its value to a collector/investor. A Catch22 situation I concede.
Hugh, thanks for the advice. I've had a few CD sets of mine using that case with the protective stuff that had been deteriorated, stuck to the CDs which were unrecoverable. After I found this, I removed all the protective stuffs out of other cases of similar CD sets.
I learned it the hard way. I made sure that each CDs were packed in a jewelry case separately, and no large case that would use protective stuff. All CDs were in pristine conditions!
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Ah - thank goodness you know about this - so many people don't. Sorry if I have made you concerned.
Hugh, thanks for the advice. I've had a few CD sets of mine using that case with the protective stuff that had been deteriorated, stuck to the CDs which were unrecoverable. After I found this, I removed all the protective stuffs out of other cases of similar CD sets.
I learned it the hard way. I made sure that each CDs were packed in a jewelry case separately, and no large case that would use protective stuff. All CDs were in pristine conditions!
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Ah - thank goodness you know about this - so many people don't. Sorry if I have made you concerned.
No worries, Hugh. It's good to remind ourselves from time to time.