NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Other => Topic started by: Björn Carlén on September 06, 2016, 09:12:17
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People are asking me more and more about portraits. Since I'm a newbie concerning artificial lighting, I feel I have to learn more about that, a lot more, before being able to make an artificially lit portrait with confidence.
All the lighting equipment I've got right now are two umbrellas and an SB-800. OM-D E-M5 II can command the nikon flash to fire through IR. Where should I look for tips and tutorials to become better at it?
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There are a lot of tutorials on the internet with the basics,,, - You should really just go ahead and find your own preferred 'look and feel' you can of course base it on what you see and like and don't like online - Learn to see light and shadow
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Best way to learn is to shoot, and shoot again and when you are done start again.....
In between, learn about Light by reading this book: Light Science and Magic. It will help you to know the "Why" before the "How".
It is the only tutorial you are seeking.
http://www.diyphotography.net/light-science-and-magic-a-book-review/
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This is old but the basic ideas are universal.
Get the DVDs and learn.
This is the How. "Light: Science & Magic" is also very good & recommended.
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Best way to learn is to shoot, and shoot again and when you are done start again.....
In between, learn about Light by reading this book: Light Science and Magic. It will help you to know the "Why" before the "How".
It is the only tutorial you are seeking.
http://www.diyphotography.net/light-science-and-magic-a-book-review/
Very comprehensive book covering most portrait and product shooting situations with lights and modifiers/accessories.
But be prepared to spend a lot of time shooting to acquire these skills,,, and then make a twist and break the rules to achieve your favourite lighting ;)
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Thanks, all of you! I appreciate your answers.
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http://strobist.blogspot.co.za/
they have been going for yonks - many swear by this website.
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Elsa, thanks for the link! Very good!
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Gear wise, if I want to radio control speedlights, is Phottix Ares your preferred choice or Cactus v6 II?
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I remember Dean Collins from Person's Photography magazine and found his articles very useful. At this site there is a free download of a booklet on "Tinker Tubes." Making light modifying panels with PVC pipe. It's worth a look. I made some light modifying device based on the construction methods shown. I made mine to mount on 4 meter (13 foot) Manfrotto light stands. Many have enlarged on this Tinker Tubes idea. Here is a link...
http://www.software-cinema.com/page/13/tinkertubes (http://www.software-cinema.com/page/13/tinkertubes)
David Hobby's Strobist blog and his Lighting 101 tutorial are very useful...
http://strobist.blogspot.com/ (http://strobist.blogspot.com/)
http://strobist.blogspot.com/2006/03/lighting-101.html (http://strobist.blogspot.com/2006/03/lighting-101.html)
A book I've read about and meat to buy is Light Science & Magic: An Introduction to Photographic Lighting 5th Edition.
Best,
Dave
At home now I've fix what I could hardly see as I waited for a friend who was doing battle with the stupid city I live in. I stayed outside so I wouldn't give certain city official a piece of my mind. :)
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Thanks, David Hartman!
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"Welcome to Lighting 101.
You may not realize it yet, but you have just stepped through a door that may change your photography forever. Over the past 10 years, over four million people from nearly every country in the world have begun their lighting education right here. If they can do it, you can do it."
Sure sounds promising.
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I second, third or fourth all previous advise and links. I also found Joe McNally's books rather good.
He has a certain style of writing which you may or may not like though. Another very good one is Kirk Tuck, Minimalist Lighting. Much more down-to-earth writing style and explains everything quite well (no radio remotes yet, though).
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Thanks, Hans!
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Agree with all propositions...
But the best you can do is keep records of what you are doing, understanding and noting what have worked and what haven't.
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David Hobby and Joe McNally did a lighting road show together. [Flash Bus] I'm wondering if there are any YouTube videos of it. David Hobby favors full manual flash exposure while Joe McNally favors Nikon's CLS/AWL. They joke about this from time to time
Dave
CLS = Creative Lighting System, AWL = Advanced Wireless Lighting: Marketing lingo.
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Thanks, Pedro!
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What's that dot or full stop all about, Almass? Are you trying to shut us up?
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Hi Bjorn
I,ve just began a similar journey myself with a pair of SB 800,s
I hope to support my winter wildlife photography using these.
Recently I used one for a Macro outing. On this occasion I only had the skills to use the on of button and set a command channel.
So I hope we learn together and can offer encouragement.
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Sounds good, John. Let's learn together!
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Interviews with Joe and David on the Advancing Your Photography...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K36unQrQ4yI&list=PLCWRagxcOTNSSS5vuyUzgDeuOwqvLkCSG (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K36unQrQ4yI&list=PLCWRagxcOTNSSS5vuyUzgDeuOwqvLkCSG)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGhp_-_nh-M&list=PLCWRagxcOTNSSS5vuyUzgDeuOwqvLkCSG&index=2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGhp_-_nh-M&list=PLCWRagxcOTNSSS5vuyUzgDeuOwqvLkCSG&index=2)
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Björn,
You didn't ask about equipment but if you need strobes I'll recommend a pair of these...
http://mpex.com/lumopro-lp180r-off-camera-flash.html (http://mpex.com/lumopro-lp180r-off-camera-flash.html)
...a set of these...
https://www.amazon.com/Phottix-Stratos-Multi-Transmitter-Receiver/dp/B0056MPWZU (https://www.amazon.com/Phottix-Stratos-Multi-Transmitter-Receiver/dp/B0056MPWZU)
Did I mention that I hate PC cables? :)
So these will give you two speedlights and a trigger for the camera: no cables needed.
Dave
I don't own the LP180R(s) with their built in Strato II receivers but rather SB-800, SB-700 and SB-24. I do own the Phottix Strato II(s). The LP180R(s) offer both off-camera Canon and Nikon TTL compatibility as I recall. LP180(s) have been recommended a number of times by David Hobby. Joe McNally uses Nikon speedlights.
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Thanks, David! I'll be looking into it.
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After this I had one more link I'd like to pass on.
Here is a link to Thorsten Ott's free tutorials...
http://www.thorstenottphotography.com/tutorials
Dave
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I've been looking for an online tutorial by Zack Arias and got thrown off as the photos for it were lost with a transfer to a different server. Pretty much the same information should be available at You Tube. Here are a couple of links...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2415wV8mE4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZwc-QBkOfg
Dave
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OK, here is one more....
http://strobist.blogspot.com/2016/07/lighting-102-introduction.html (http://strobist.blogspot.com/2016/07/lighting-102-introduction.html)
Dave
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Thanks, Dave! I've begun watching the videos.
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The problem is, for a start, to get my two SB-800s to be radio triggered from my Oly E-M5 II. It would be nice to be able to control power output on camera as well, for each of the speedlights. Is Pocket wizard the solution, or are there cheaper alternatives that work well? I'm finding the whole thing to be very confusing, to say the least.
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Pocket Wizards are a solution to radio triggering. MiniTT1/FlexTT5 if you want CLS/i-TTL, or other options if you can live with out auto features. I suspect there are cheaper alternatives as well.
In the meantime you can put the SB-800's in SU-4 mode and fire them using the optical trigger, so long as you have a flash for the E-M5 to do the triggering. A viable option while you sort out your radio triggers.
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Björn,
There's a guy named Jerry at the Flickr group, Strobist.com that knows the Pocket Wizard TTL system very well. If you are up to putting down some serious cash it's probably the best system for wedding photography. I'd think it would be good for any portraiture. Here is a link to the Flickr group...
https://www.flickr.com/groups/strobist/ (https://www.flickr.com/groups/strobist/)
If you want manual control of your flash power from the camera it's usually done using the TLL features of your speedlight even though the camera is not controlling the exposure. I'm not sure what works with what getting away from Nikon. I know the Phottix Odin system will do this with Nikon, Canon and Sony. I'm not sure about others.
There is a link up now. :)
Best,
Dave
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In the meantime you can put the SB-800's in SU-4 mode and fire them using the optical trigger, so long as you have a flash for the E-M5 to do the triggering. A viable option while you sort out your radio triggers.
I tried the SU-4 mode, but it's only one out of 30 or more times that the SB-800 is properly synced with the shutter. It fires, though. Someone said pre-flashes from the optical trigger may be the cause. I don't know if there 's a way to turn off those pre-flashes. And the camera is an E-M5 mark 2, by the way.
With my D600 it works like a breeze.
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I've been looking for an online tutorial by Zack Arias and got thrown off as the photos for it were lost with a transfer to a different server. Pretty much the same information should be available at You Tube. Here are a couple of links...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2415wV8mE4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZwc-QBkOfg
Dave
Very good videos! Thanks a lot, Dave!
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Preflashes will get you. They are means little ...
The best way to get past them is radio triggers from simple fire now triggers to those with all the bells and whistles.
With your D600 you can trigger those SB-800 in SU-4 mode if the D600's popup is set to full manual. Indoors maybe set 1/16 power. Outdoors get a radio system. The D600 will also control the SB-800 with the popup indoors pretty well. To keep the popup from putting its signature in many photos you'd want this...
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/410445-REG/Nikon_4905_SG_3IR_IR_Panel_for.html
CLS/AWL works outdoors in the evening pretty well.
Here is the site I turned to, to decide what triggers to buy. There are many new choices since I bought. Here it is...
http://flashhavoc.com/
(http://flashhavoc.com/)
Here are short reviews of many options...
http://flashhavoc.com/gear-guides/ (http://flashhavoc.com/gear-guides/)
More links...
http://flashhavoc.com/flash-trigger-guide-ttl/#PocketWizard_TT1_TT5_AC3
(http://flashhavoc.com/flash-trigger-guide-ttl/#PocketWizard_TT1_TT5_AC3)
This is the Pocket Wizard that would interest me most...
http://www.pocketwizard.com/products/transmitter_receiver/plus%20iv/ (http://www.pocketwizard.com/products/transmitter_receiver/plus%20iv/)
This the setup I bought...
https://www.amazon.com/Phottix-Stratos-Multi-Transmitter-Receiver/dp/B0056MPWZU (https://www.amazon.com/Phottix-Stratos-Multi-Transmitter-Receiver/dp/B0056MPWZU)
The permalink at Flash Havoc when to the wrong place. These are reviewed at Flash Havoc.
I very much like the idea of not having separate speedlights and radio triggers. Here is what I'd like along with some LumoPro LP180R speedlights...
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1219758-REG/phottix_ph89069_odin_ii_ttl_flash.html (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1219758-REG/phottix_ph89069_odin_ii_ttl_flash.html)
There are a dizzying array of products available. What works with your camera I don't know. These probably do. They will trigger many brands of speedlight from one camera, e.g. Nikon, Canon and more.
Buying your first set of triggers is a journey...
Dave
Sorry this is a rambling mess. I'm off to bed. It's 3:00 AM here in the land of the Dirt People.
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Big thanks for your links and help, Dave!
Here's what's new re: my sync problem.
After a bit of research I can conclude that my SB-800 is in sync with my E-M5 II through the the diminutive flash that comes with the camera.
BUT:
there is no sync from 1/2 power and up. The images clearly reveal it.
If I set the output to 1/2 minus 1/3 of a stop, it works, though. And downwards from that, of course.
The guys at Oly Support Sweden didn't know more about the camera than I do, as it seemed. They told me Nikon speedlights work through IR, so the flash can't be triggered by an Oly commander, which is not IR based... I'll have to give Nikon a call.
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... Nikon speedlights work through IR, so the flash can't be triggered by an Oly commander, which is not IR based...
Did they also share whether its flash is IR blocked/filtered?
Nikon's flashes are also not IR (the pop-up ones at least), but there is IR in the visible light as well, so that works. Probably the CLS code cannot be generated by your Oly (i'm sure of that).
What is the sync speed of the camera?
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Yes, you must put the on camera flash in manual mode so there are no pre-flashes. Pre-flashes will trigger the SB-800 and it will not recycle in time to fire again for the shutter.
Be sure to turn the on camera flash all of the way down or better yet use it as bounce flash and turn it away from your subject so it fires the SB-800 but does not contribute much to the exposure, unless of course you want it to contribute to the exposure.
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Did they also share whether its flash is IR blocked/filtered?
I'm shure they (at the phone support) don't have a clue.
What is the sync speed of the camera?
It's maximum 1/250 s, as far as I know.
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Yes, you must put the on camera flash in manual mode so there are no pre-flashes. Pre-flashes will trigger the SB-800 and it will not recycle in time to fire again for the shutter.
I've tried it in all the modes. Manual and Auto trigger the slave, TTL not so. How could the pre-flashes ruin the sync only at 1/1 and 1/2 output?
Be sure to turn the on camera flash all of the way down or better yet use it as bounce flash and turn it away from your subject so it fires the SB-800 but does not contribute much to the exposure, unless of course you want it to contribute to the exposure.
There is an option, in the flash menu, to turn the on-camera flash off. The slave is triggered anyway.
My E-M10 is showing the same behaviour, btw, with its popup flash.
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I did not see that there was a 3rd page to this thread so my last reply was actually a reply to #29, which had already been answered by David.
How could the pre-flashes ruin the sync only at 1/1 and 1/2 output?
In SU-4 mode pre flashes will always trigger the the SB-800 before the shutter trips, throwing off the sync.
SU-4 mode works best when everything is in full manual mode with no pre flash events happening.
The reason you might no longer see it working above 1/2 power is that the flash could have recycled fast enough between the pre flashes and the shutter opening to fire again at the lower power settings. At the higher settings it takes longer for the flash to recycle and fire again.
If you haven't already I would suggest to set everything to full manual modes.
Put your E-M10 in manual exposure mode & set the shutter speed to 1/125s, iso to 100, aperture to f/8.
Make sure the flash settings on the E-M10 is in full manual mode as well, no TTL, no auto trigger. Set it to half power or a bit less.
Point the camera at the SB-800 with the SB-800's optical trigger pointing toward the lens, SB-800 set to SU-4 Manual setting.
Now try the test again, is the E-M10 syncing with the SB-800 through the entire power range?
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A word about SU-4 Mode. There are actually two SU-4 modes: Manual and Automatic. When people say, SU-4 mode today they almost always mean SU-4 manual mode. It's just a dumb fire now optical trigger. The Automatic mode is old film technology. The SU-4 Auto Mode tries to fire hosted speedlight in sync with the master speedlight that is synced to the camera.
So SU-4 Mode today means SU-4 manual almost always.
Dave
The name SU-4 comes from the SU-4 auto slave sold as an accessory to speedlights like the SB-16A or SB-16B.
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Björn,
I would try firing an SB-800 in the Olympus in full manual mode. If it fires and syncs correctly the Olympus will fire most any manual trigger from the low end to the Phottix Strato II to the Pocket Wizard Plus IV high end. You can buy a pair of manual only triggers from about $35.00 (USD) to $300.00 (USD). This way you skip all the hassles with preflash.
Even if you buy a top of the line TTL Pocket Wizard system for Nikon you'll probably want a backup system.
Dave
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My latest finding is that the E-M10 can trigger and sync the SB-800 at 1/2 power (i. e. 1/3 of a stop brighter), and that's only in iAUTO mode. Yes, that's right.
I tried to duplicate the test with the E-M5 II - the first attempt was successful, the subsequent ones were failures. So, inconsistent results.
Maybe a cheap manual radio trigger will be the way to go.
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I would try firing an SB-800 in the Olympus in full manual mode. If it fires and syncs correctly the Olympus will fire most any manual trigger...
I don't dare mounting the Nikon flash in the Oly hotshoe. Don't they have their pins in reverse order?
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My latest finding is that the E-M10 can trigger and sync the SB-800 at 1/2 power (i. e. 1/3 of a stop brighter), and that's only in iAUTO mode. Yes, that's right.
I tried to duplicate the test with the E-M5 II - the first attempt was successful, the subsequent ones were failures. So, inconsistent results.
Maybe a cheap manual radio trigger will be the way to go.
You keep mentioning auto modes, did you try it in full manual mode like I mentioned in post #37?
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You keep mentioning auto modes, did you try it in full manual mode like I mentioned in post #37?
Almost all my testing was done in manual mode, on all units. SU-4 manual on the slave flash.
I can't recall any mentioning of auto mode, except for this last unexpected iAUTO incident.
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How could the pre-flashes ruin the sync only at 1/1 and 1/2 output?
When using less than 1/2 output, the flash has enough power to fire twice. Once in sync with the preflash, and once in sync with the flash that is in sync with the shutter. At 1/1 and 1/2, the flash is empty or almost empty after the preflash, and it will not fire at the flash in sync with the shutter.
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Hm, that makes sense. It's what charlie wrote too in his earlier post.
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I did a test with my very old Osram BCS 32 Studio mounted on my E-M5 II. Suddenly the SB-800 syncs all the way up to full power.
My conclusion is that this confirms the theories of charlie and Asle, that preflashes from the Olympuses were the cause of the problem.
Does anyone have a better explanation?
As it seems, it's not possible to turn off the preflashes on those Olympus flashes.
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Preflashes are the typical cause of this problem. The Nikon F5 and SB-800 have a mode called Auto Aperture that's Iike the old Auto Thyristor flash but the camera and flash communicate so you only set the aperture on the camera. Damned if that mode doesn't use a preflash. Anyway the preflash problem has been discussed many times on Flicker's Strobist.com group. The No.1 solution is a radio trigger system. The No. 2 solution is a speedlight like the LP180R (and many others) that can ignore the preflashes.
Dave who reminds you that Canon calls their flashes "Speedlites" because they are less filling.
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I did a test with my very old Osram BCS 32 Studio mounted on my E-M5 II. Suddenly the SB-800 syncs all the way up to full power.
My conclusion is that this confirms the theories of charlie and Asle, that preflashes from the Olympuses were the cause of the problem.
Does anyone have a better explanation?
As it seems, it's not possible to turn off the preflashes on those Olympus flashes.
So you can use your old Osram flash to trigger your SB-800's then, problem solved. Search no more for explanations. If preflashes are occuring SU-4 mode will not operate properly.
I'd be real surprised if you could not disable the preflashes, the manual for the E-M5 II shows that the flash can be set to manual mode and there is absolutely no reason for pre flashes if the flash & camera are both set to manual modes.
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Hi Bjorn
I have followed your thread, it seems like you,ve got to a place that is satisfactory for your flash settings.
Good luck with Stage two of your plans.
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So you can use your old Osram flash to trigger your SB-800's then, problem solved. Search no more for explanations. If preflashes are occuring SU-4 mode will not operate properly.
I'd be real surprised if you could not disable the preflashes, the manual for the E-M5 II shows that the flash can be set to manual mode and there is absolutely no reason for pre flashes if the flash & camera are both set to manual modes.
I've tried every possible setting in the flash menu, especially all in manual. Nothing seems to turn the preflashes off.
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Hi Bjorn
I have followed your thread, it seems like you,ve got to a place that is satisfactory for your flash settings.
Good luck with Stage two of your plans.
Yes, the radio triggers are on their way. And thank you!
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Hm, and this was supposed to be a thread about lighting tutorials. And look where it ended up. Sorry about that! I guess Olympus is to blame.
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I've tried every possible setting in the flash menu, especially all in manual. Nothing seems to turn the preflashes off.
Interesting, what is the model number of the flash if you don't mind me asking?
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FL-LM3 on the E-M5/II.
On the E-M10 it's a built-in one. Popup-.
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I found it out at last.
Setting the camera to RC mode 'off' obviously turns the preflashes off. The speedlight is set to SU-4, and suddenly it syncs all the way up to 1/1!
I can turn the on-camera flash output power down to 1/64. Not shure if that's enough not to impact the lighting. Of course it's not optimal.
Sorry about all the fuss. I should have thought of this much earlier.
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Björn,
I'm glad you found a solution to the preflash problem.
Dave