NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: John G on August 15, 2016, 18:28:09
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I have been witnessing a few reasonably low actuation, less than 100,000 to be nearer the count Nikon D4 models become available on the market. Some are at a price I agree on, so a sale of the D800E would get me into this level of body with a small additional cost after the D800E is sold.
I have never considered or wished for a ownership of the D4 as I have been very settled with the D800E.
I have been wanting a higher burst rate and got it in my mind the D500 will be a camera body to accompany the D800E in 2017.
I am much more of a nature photographer than anything else, so any thoughts on the D4 replacing the D800E
would be of interest to me.
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While the D4's ergonomics are certainly drool-worthy, I can't see how a D4 would equal, let alone best, the D500 for nature photography.
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If you want/need high FPS rates, the D800 series is not going to be very satisfying.
If you like having 36MP, a 16 MP unit may disappoint.
If you've ever used the large pro bodies, you know how bulky they are.
The large pro bodies are more rugged than, and are ergonomically/haptically superior to the smaller bodies, in my experience.
16 MP is enough for excellent print/reproduction quality at all normal degrees of enlargement.
I'd be nice to have both...
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I don't see how you can go wrong with the D4 :)
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While the D4's ergonomics are certainly drool-worthy, I can't see how a D4 would equal, let alone best, the D500 for nature photography.
Handling of the stock D500 is pretty lame once it is combined with bigger, serious lenses ... one probably needs to add (an expensive) grip to improve the matter and then the difference to a D4 is rapidly shrinking.
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The D500 will be more of your friend in nature photography than the D4.
Exceptional AF capability
Equivalent burst rate
Unique fifth gen color consitency over a huge range of light and ISO
phantastic MF through F6 ground glass
Equivalent ergonomics with grip.
2700 with grip
2400 after christmas
D4 audio recording capability is not in the D500. That is all.
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Thank You
A lot of good clear thoughts on this option.
As I feel I can purchase the D4 for a small additional outlay to the funds raised by the sale of the D800E,
and after reading and taking note of all of the offered comments, it would seem that to choose a D4 as a
replacement for my D800E, this can also be a potential future partner for the D500, is a valid option to
consider.
I think Frank hit the nail on the head, when considering the lenses I commonly use and the subjects I am
drawn to. Now I,m off, to go and find out all about F6 ground glass, oh me, oh my.
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It seems to me selling the D800E to finance a D4 might be a mistake. The D4 might be a silver bullet. I'd want to think out just why I'd be giving up the D800E for the D4. Now if I were I'd be thinking about better high ISO. I wonder if saving for a D500 and then later a battery grip might be a better plan.
Dave
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The D800E is a very good camera. Utilize it to the max.
Bjørn said the thing about lenses an he is right.
Today I was thinking about alternatives, walking the beach:
The D500 was what I could afford together with the 300PF. I am really happy with that combination.
I can use this combination to explore unknown territory like sports and wildlife and I shot some amazing kite surfer
footage just for fun. No commercial pressure. See 366 days thread.
To get better results technically I would have to pay for and carry a D5 or D4s plus a 2.8/400 ...
I do not want this. This is a new field. I do not know if I will ever make any money with that topic
but I can still use the D500 and 300PF in my daily work.
So as long as photography is just an expensive hobby, get the best stuff you can afford.
A new lens or a workshop teaching the use of existing equipment better might be the better choice
than a downgrade from a D800 to a D4.
I shot nice sports pics with a D70 and a D600. Why? I booked a workshop 10 years ago with a friend who
shot Bundesliga at the time. He told me the essentials. It is not the camera. It is immersion with the subject.
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John, Mongo had a D800. Then had opportunity through a friend to update to D800E for a couple of hundred dollars - so did so. Still own the D800E. In the interim, about a year and a half ago, there was a sale on new D4s models. So, Mongo bought a new D4s thinking it would be the thing to have that would please him. Well, it did and it didn't.
As a result, Mongo has kept both cameras because they do their best at different things.
the D4s is brilliant to use, great quality etc but in Mongo's mind is largely a studio camera OR one for full size macros or full size landscape etc. In short, it is no use and not a patch on the D800E when you need to seriously crop an image. Thus, for long wildlife shots, Mongo will always use the D800E in preference to the D4s unless he is right on top of the subject and little to no cropping is required.
The noise performance is not that great to write home about with either camera. Certainly not that different to each other in virtually all conditions Mongo has used them. So, that should not be a deciding factor.
If Mongo were you, he would seriously think about the predominant use you will have for the camera before making any decisions. Certainly, hire one for a weekend if possible and run it through the type of photography and conditions you would ordinarily encounter.
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Thank you once more for your shared thoughts.
I may have let the value of the D800E crop quality slip out of sight.
I have many images I have kept because of the IQ present after cropping.
I do feel it is wise to trial the D4 body as a comparison.
I would also think that their are others at present who may have began to
ponder their camera body options in a similar way.
So producing a list of considerations is a valuable tool.
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just get a D750 :o :o :o
had the D4 and D800 before.
always hated the D800 for it's file size and high ISO performance. it was good initially but it soon occurred to me that 36MP is too much for what i do. I even got lazy sending images to editors because the damn files were so huge.
D4 was awesome, sold it recently. I would not have sold it but i do not have a use for it in the past few years so it had to go.
the D750 to me is the perfect balance. manageable file size, better than D800 high ISO performance, decent FPS, portability, price.
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Mongo cannot disagree with Richard's comments. The D800 series file size is large and a pain to work with on computer. Mongo uses his D800E in various crop modes (especially 30 x 20) becuase it reduces the file size and Mongo was intending to crop in any event in those cases.
Have not used the D750 but from all accounts it is a possibly better camera than the D800 series for practicable file size and ISO performance.
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Mongo cannot disagree with Richard's comments. The D800 series file size is large and a pain to work with on computer. Mongo uses his D800E in various crop modes (especially 30 x 20) becuase it reduces the file size and Mongo was intending to crop in any event in those cases.
Have not used the D750 but from all accounts it is a possibly better camera than the D800 series for practicable file size and ISO performance.
more versatile. i suspect that my editors skip my files because they were HUGE :o :o :o
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more versatile. i suspect that my editors skip my files because they were HUGE :o :o :o
One should resize image files to make them suitable in size for the publishing context they aim at. Always.
These days with nearly all cameras being able to deliver enough pixels to make mural prints, this principle is more important than ever.
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Thank you Mongo! All the more from one of the best nature shooters in out little boat.
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I find that there is a huge difference when doing PP on screen between 16 MP of the D4 and 36 MP of the D810 - resolving power is impressive - But yes on the final print the difference is often masked,,,
D4 and D4s are very cheap 2nd hand here in Copenhagen,,,
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I have thoroughly enjoyed all the views offered in relation to my enquirey.
The hope for a guidance on the subject has been very well supported.
It has been a joy to hear how the NG contributors have shown their preferences for a body or pair of bodies.
When I purchased the D800E, I was looking to move on from a D80 body, and was wanting the full frame experience with improved IQ, I do not remember making a shortlist of any other priorities.
What I have got from this selection of contributions is that there are many considerations to ponder, and see how they will be of a benefit to how one functions with their whole set up.
There are bodies now in the mix that were not a consideration for me.
What sticks with me at present, is that I should not discount any of the bodies that have been mentioned here when it comes to the time of having a set up that includes two bodies.
I should try before committing to a purchase of a body.
The D500 will surpass the D4 and it is getting nearer to the used D4 used price in terms of affordability.
The D800E has a lot more use than a D4s by one user due to its superior IQ when cropping heavily.
I use the D800E in a similar fashion.
I am intending to bring a D500 into my set up in 2017, I will put the wish to have a used high frame rate per second body in the mean time on hold and keep on with the D800E .
I will keep to this NG path, looking to increase my user knowledge/skills of my set up.
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I understand the desire for a Dx series body, I dream of owning one for ergonomics alone. Sadly though, even if one were free there are currently no Dx bodies that can compete with the D750 for my uses. I have been tempted by used D4 bodies as are you, but stopped when I realized many images I have taken would not have turned out nearly as good with a D4. It is too bad there is no Dx style body with a D750 sensor.
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For my kind of photography the D800E is superior to the D4. It's 36mp files offer far more possibilities.
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for me it would be both the d800e for its richness and detail of images, the d4 for power and speed, and ruggedness
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I have the D800 and the Df, the latter sporting the same sensor as the D4. While I appreciate the better low light or high ISO performance of the Df (nearly 1 stop better, noise-wise, at same picture size, i.e. after resampling of the D800 files), I do not think the difference overwhelming. Fons' summary is therefore to the point.
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the more Mongo reads the views on this thread, the more he thinks that, in an ideal world, if you did not already own any cameras, you should seek to buy a very good used D750 and D500. These are probably the best "all round" FX and DX Nikon cameras at present and in theory, should meet all your needs. Not sure what the combined cost of both would be in comparison to your original exercise of buying a good used D4.
the alternative would be to treat your D800 as your FX body and consider buying a D500. Again, it really depends on what use you have intended for them. Owning FX and DX has its own problems - not the least of which are effectively having to consider owning too many lenses. The only people Mongo knows buying D500s are those who have dedicated DX lenses in their cupboards and do not wish to be roped into buying more FX based lenses OR dedicated FX users who do a lot of long lens work like birding and buy a D500 to use on only one or two long lenses for this purpose.
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Mongo: The D600 feels heavier and "more professional" in my hands. The D750 is faster, "more snappy", more plasticky. A nearly unused second hand D600 is significantly cheaper than the newer D750 and Nikon will replace the shutter unit for free any time. Both feature the same sensor.
Having the choice between D500 and D600 every day, I choose the D500 more often, because AF and color consitency and better ergonomics is often the more important factor than the one stop advantage.
D600 is better for Wide Angle Work obviously, D500 better if any shot needs cropping anyway.
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Would have to agree with Frank. If the D600 feels more substantial; has the same sensor and is cheaper, then, it is worth considering in place of the D750 in any of the combinations discussed.
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The form factor of the D750, in particular the narrow grip, might not suit everyone. I tried the camera shortly and decided to let it pass by because of its perceived poor handling.
The D500 has some of the same shape as the D750 and I freely admit struggling with it for hand-held use. As the D500 is slightly smaller, the problem appears being reduced but not eliminated here.
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I found the deep grip of D750 awkward when I held it for the first time. But, after using it for half a year, it has become my most fitting camera since D2H.
Actually D500 is slightly larger and ever-so-slightly heavier than D750 in all dimensions (W, H, D), even with the lack of on-board flash and smaller format.
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Not having these side by side, extrapolating from the sensor size alone might have caused the wrong conclusion. I stand corrected. However, I still hold the opinion the D500 should have had better ergometrics. The camera is OK with sufficiently small lenses, up to and including the 17-35/2.8, but any bigger and it's pretty uncomfortable to operate.
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I bought the D500 with grip. I recommend it with grip. It seems just perfect with the grip. I even consider her
slightly better ergonomically than the D5 and significantly more ergonomic than the wonderful D3. So: the grip
is very expensive but it adds a lot to the camera beyond many days of shooting without recharge.
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I'm talking about the handgrip on the camera itself.
One has to add a lot of bulk, plus another accessory (battery inset) to be able to use a big D4/D5 battery for the D500. So one gets a relatively speaking huge camera almost the size of a D3/4/5 class body, yet no audio recording.
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I have a D750 but find its handling after eight months to be somewhat awkward (the grip doesn't feel right for my right hand), I also run into the small buffer limitation frequently, it has too few AF fine tuning slots, and finally I don't like the sound of the camera when the picture is taken. However, it is compact and a reasonable backup camera because it doesn't take that much bag space. The image quality is good, and the AF works well (but covers a too small area of the image). Sometimes the tilting screen is useful. If the OP is interested in a fast camera, in my opinion the D750 is not quite it, as the buffer limit is likely reached very quickly in applications where the 6.5 fps rate is actively used. I find it very annoying when the camera slows down or refuses to take a picture, and I prefer the slower fps rate and large buffer of the D810 as it is something that I can rely on.
To the OP I would recommend getting the D500 and keeping the D800E for now. The new Multi-CAM 20k is a big improvement especially for off-center subjects (along the long dimension of the frame) and/or low light action. I think people shooting action a lot will want to phase out cameras using Multi-CAM 3500 series as new models come out using the Multi-CAM 20k autofocus better and the focus system is easier to fine tune. There is no D8x0 yet with Multi-CAM 20k but I think it should be coming soon. Once that happens you can then consider the "D820"/D500 pair for the long term which should be excellent all around.
For me the D810/D5 pair works well.
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I'm talking about the handgrip on the camera itself.
One has to add a lot of bulk, plus another accessory (battery inset) to be able to use a big D4/D5 battery for the D500. So one gets a relatively speaking huge camera almost the size of a D3/4/5 class body, yet no audio recording.
absolutely.
I ran the gripped D500 alongside the D3, gripped D600 and D5. The D500 was my favourite, then the D5, the D600, the D3.
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Thank you Ilkka and Bjorn, Frank
Your commitment to the D500 and reassurances are being well received.
Ilkka has left me dreaming of a all new 8#* series,
hopefully with a in camera software supporting the UHS II SD card for full capacity function.
I have read up on this in 2015, only a few bodies were fully supporting this new tech, Sony is one I believe.
As for a D5- D810, I can only think of a Cheshire Cats renowned expression.
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The D500 is probably the best value in cameras right now: 1.5x reach, the best AF of any camera on earth (save the D5), yet less than 1/3rd the cost of the D5.
Excellent DR, high-ISO, beautiful color representation, etc.
I totally disagree as to the ergonomics of the D500: they are superb.
The poorly-though old ISO function in elder Nikons (requiring 2 hands to change) has now been intelligently-upgraded in the D500, which can be done with the just right hand only now.
ALL CAMERA CONTROLS WITH THE RIGHT HAND; ALL LENS CONTROLS WITH YOUR LEFT HAND, the way it should be.
I have both the D810 and the D500, and (for field use) I use the D500 NINETY PERCENT of the time, with the D810 now only an afterthought (if I need a landscape shot or whatever).
My only complaint about the D500 has been some card-read errors (now fixed with a firmware update) and a rather loud shutter-sound (which has scared some birds away).
Other than that, it is a MUCH more usable camera than the D810 and by a country mile.
If you are shooting wildlife, REACH and SPEED are the number one factors, as well as AF, and there isn't a single camera on earth that has BOTH the reach, and the speed, of the D500 ... combined ... as well its AF abilities ... along with all of its other modern qualities and conveniences.
It is simply the best wildlife camera for the money right now. By a longshot.
Jack
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The ISO can be dialled in using one hand on the D810 as well, by reprogramming the function of the Video button.
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JohnG .... I am really waiting for the next D8xx or D9xx.
Because the wait was too long and the D5 not convincing for my purpose I chose to buy the D500
as a compromise.
Using her daily I can say from the heart that she is so much more than a compromise. Many times
I thought of buying a second D500. The best DSLR I ever had.
But I am still waiting for the next D8xx....
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The ISO can be dialled in using one hand on the D810 as well, by reprogramming the function of the Video button.
True, my video button is programmed as the ISO button.
But, again, it's more than that. The AF + the reach of the D500 make it the better camera for wildlife.
Another element is also the LCD ... it is terrible in the D810 (terrible for high-mag macros, dark, grainy, unless I am in fairly bright light--or use artificial light).
The LCD in the D500 is very nice, much brighter, much clearer, and the touch screen is wonderful.
Again, I have both camera, and I bring both cameras, but for wildlife the extra reach + the much better AF mean the D810 hangs on my hip, in a camera holster, used infrequently, while my D500 sports the expensive action glass and is what is always in-hand.
I don't even use my D810 + Voigtlander for nature macros much anymore. (Why attempt to get super-close to a butterfly, when I can get essentially the same-quality shot from 10' away with a D500 + 300mm + extender?)
I only use my D810 if I (1) have optimal light, (2) am able to shoot a non-mobile subject, (3) can use base (or near-base) ISO, and (3) use a tripod to get an ultra-clear image with a lot of DR.
Under those perfect conditions, I love my D810 :D
However, if I am trying to capture "a fleeting moment," where I spot some wary, mobile creature in the woods, the D500 is the action camera--and it excels at its job.
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Enough of this D500 talk.
My 25th Year Wedding Anniversary fund is about to be plundered.
Me and my Darling wife will end up at the Sea Front in October eating take away fish and chips, with her new love rival hanging around my neck accompanying her hands. :P