NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: Tristin on April 01, 2016, 00:10:04
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http://m.dpreview.com/news/1155069571/canon-files-patent-for-design-of-hybrid-viewfinder-aimed-at-dslr-cameras
I knew it was inrvitable for someone to do it. I just hope Nikon is one of them.
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A selectable viewfinder live view, which allows for digital zoom, would certainly change the functionality of DX cameras for use with manual focus and macro lenses. How I would love to have a little button that toggles between a normal viewfinder view and a momentary magnified live view!
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Yeah, the ways a HVF would be really useful are plentiful. Not that I do much video, but it would make video bearable with a DSLR. Holding my chunk DSLR out in front of me like a PS is not fun at all.
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I'd like something along these lines, but, yes....in a Nikon, please!
The system described would seem to cut the brightness of both the OVF and the EVF by one stop...they use the term "half mirror".
It does eliminate the need for a high-precision but high-cost mechanical/optical solution such as a flip-in/rotating mirror or prism.
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i have mixed feelings about this. i like my VF to be as uncluttered as possible :o :o :o
when i had the X100s and almost jumped to the mirrorless hype bandwagon, i always had it on OVF since i hate the lag and the cluttered display of an EVF.
if i were given a choice, maybe focus peaking on the OVF overlay should be nice for what i do because i focus manually everyday except for important or paid jobs
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Pluton, it looks like only the EVF projection is passed through a half mirror.
Richard, I would hope that a Nikon HVF would have all possible overlays as options. I too would prefer to have my completely uncluttered OVF. I often wish I could turn off the AF bracket. A friend of mine has an OM5, I was blow away by how cluttered the EVF was. What an eyesore.
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Pluton, it looks like only the EVF projection is passed through a half mirror.
Richard, I would hope that a Nikon HVF would have all possible overlays as options. I too would prefer to have my completely uncluttered OVF. I often wish I could turn off the AF bracket. A friend of mine has an OM5, I was blow away by how cluttered the EVF was. What an eyesore.
yeah,man. you should see the sony one :o :o :o
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I would have to go back and do some digging but Nikon filed a Patent for a Hybrid VF quite some time back.
There are many things I like about the EVFs for some types of shooting but for shooting fast action I have to have an OVF. I just cannot pick up a target, and track, instantly with the Olympus or Sony. With the Olympus EM1 I can easily 'de-clutter' the EVF. Sony is pretty much the same but still learning. Shooting more than one system works for me. At some point I would like to try a Fuji but it seems Fuji has dropped the Hybrid in the XT-1 and the X100T is still pretty expensive just to try it.
On my recent trip, with hours in an SUV travelling in the desert, my keeper rate from the Df, at 60+ kph was pretty good and that was with the 105 f2D, I missed having the 70-200 2.8vrII. Not even close with the Sony a7II and my wife only had a few with the EM1 and those where when we had to slow right down passing trough villages (or very bad roads).
As far as a Hybrid, just have to wait and see how it would function :)
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The idea is interesting. But the entire optical system of the ocular is so long that it wouldn't fit the conventional DSLR style design. The form factor like Pentax 645Z or Canon C series would be more appropriate.
Egami, the author of the original website, wonders how to keep the large magnification factor of the viewfinder image with this design.
http://egami.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2016-03-23
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Pluton, it looks like only the EVF projection is passed through a half mirror.
Richard, I would hope that a Nikon HVF would have all possible overlays as options. I too would prefer to have my completely uncluttered OVF. I often wish I could turn off the AF bracket. A friend of mine has an OM5, I was blow away by how cluttered the EVF was. What an eyesore.
When I had an Olympus OM-D, I had no problems with cluttering of the viewfinder. Presently I use Sony A7/A7II and have no problems. EVFs are of course customizable wrt. what information they show.
The biggest eyesore for me has been DSLR OVFs that are really poor for any manual focusing. They are however fine as a compositional aid only, in good light, like a look-through-finder.
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Funny as I am pretty taken back by the EVF of my Sony A7. Cannot even see the entire frame. Very hard to nail focus with most lenses as well. Overall a really big disappointment.
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I'd like something along these lines, but, yes....in a Nikon, please!
The system described would seem to cut the brightness of both the OVF and the EVF by one stop...they use the term "half mirror".
It does eliminate the need for a high-precision but high-cost mechanical/optical solution such as a flip-in/rotating mirror or prism.
Canon states 60/40 division of the light in their current DSLRs, that work the traditional way with returning mirrors. So 40% of the light goes to the AF and light meter systems in the bottom of the mirror box. I suppose the figures are in the same alley for Nikon as well.
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That would only be about 1 stop difference. The eye adapts readily to such small changes in intensity.
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Funny as I am pretty taken back by the EVF of my Sony A7. Cannot even see the entire frame. Very hard to nail focus with most lenses as well. Overall a really big disappointment.
I can not reliably nail focus with a DSLR OVF, and there's no way the DSLR OVF can beat focus peaking and the 10x magnifier for precise focusing, for me. For MF I find the Sony A7 vastly superior to a DSLR and the D800 was the biggest disappointment so far, where even the liveview was poor. Actually, for me, this was no "funny" experience at all, quite the opposite.
We shall obviously never agree on the viewfinders, but maybe we can enjoy the fact that there are more choices now? More people can find a camera with a viewfinder suitable to them than before.
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Never said there should be unison agreement on these matters. Just venting my disappointment of a highly touted EVF system, that's all. The EVF has a long way to go, for sure.
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bjornthun (to make sure I got the right Bjorn) . Only a little off topic ;)
Focus Peaking on the a7II is just not that accurate for me. It has to be used in conjunction with the Magnifier. Maybe I have the settings wrong but sometimes I want a particular person, item to be really sharp but the yellow peaking shows all in focus but the image shows that there is some back focus. Normally when using a lens at f2 to f4. Any suggestions ?
Cheers,
Tom
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I have noticed the same thing as Tom does when using my a7R for intermediate or close work. It just is not accurate. I gave up and turned it off. Maybe other manufacturers are better at providing focus peaking? I don't know.
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Unlike the image taking lens, the optical system of the view finder, electronic or optical, is completed with the optical system of the photographer's eye. That's why "which viewfinder is the best?" kind of discussion always ends up without any progression.
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I have noticed the same thing as Tom does when using my a7R for intermediate or close work. It just is not accurate. I gave up and turned it off. Maybe other manufacturers are better at providing focus peaking? I don't know.
That's why I switch between them. The ultimate thing is the 10x magnifier. When use 5x magnifier, the magnifier and the focus peaking work in conjunction, which is often the quickest way of focusing. Without magnification the ficus peaking, shows a wider zone of focus, but you can set three levels for focus peaking, which will improve accuracy.
When I use native lenses, the 5x magnifier is automatically engaged and works in conjunction with focus peaking, also possible to switch off in the menu. This is way ahead of any OVF for me, and I get 99-100% keeper rate for MF this way.
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Unlike the image taking lens, the optical system of the view finder, electronic or optical, is completed with the optical system of the photographer's eye. That's why "which viewfinder is the best?" kind of discussion always ends up without any progression.
I think this is very true.
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bjornthun, have you tried alternate focun screens? The stock screens are poor for MF. I've used magnification for focusing on an EVF before. Found it very useful for static subjects, but anything else I would still prefer a decent focus screen as it is not a fast way to work. Focus peaking sounds like the perfect idea, but too inaccurate currently for the fast aperatures I would want to use it at. 😕 Hopefully it improves a lot and we can get focus peaking overlaid on the OVF. That would be awesome.
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bjornthun, have you tried alternate focun screens? The stock screens are poor for MF. I've used magnification for focusing on an EVF before. Found it very useful for static subjects, but anything else I would still prefer a decent focus screen as it is not a fast way to work. Focus peaking sounds like the perfect idea, but too inaccurate currently for the fast aperatures I would want to use it at. 😕 Hopefully it improves a lot and we can get focus peaking overlaid on the OVF. That would be awesome.
Yes, I have tried alternative focussing screens from focusdingscreens.com (Canon type S I think it was called), but the improvement was small, there was no way it could compete with the magnifier of the Sony A7 for accuracy and speed or in low light. I mainly shoot static subjects. The best SLR finder is still the 44 year old Olympus OM-1 with 0.9x magnification. DSLRs unfortunately have lower magnification than cameras like the old Nikon F3HP as well, they appear not to be tuned to MF anymore. Native Sony E mount lenses engage 5x magnification combined with focus peaking, which gives me way faster and more precise MF than anything else.
Katzeye worked well with the D700, but there was no Katzeye screen for the D800. 36mp serms to be more than can accurately be focussed with an optical finder. 12mp with Katzeye was fine with the D700.
I sold my DSLRs back in 2014, when I discovered what my Sony A7 could do. I'm not going back to DSLRs. The lack of suitability for MF of the Nikon D800 was a major disappointment, and a costly one. Why couldn't Nikon just have made a D800EVF version, and I would have bern happy?
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I am sure Nikon is waiting for HVF to be viable. I think people wanting a strictly EVF are a minority in the Nikon DSLR camp. I know I don't want one, I spend enough time as-is looking at screens.
I do wish that VFs were bigger. Is there a reason they aren't?
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I am sure Nikon is waiting for HVF to be viable. I think people wanting a strictly EVF are a minority in the Nikon DSLR camp. I know I don't want one, I spend enough time as-is looking at screens.
I do wish that VFs were bigger. Is there a reason they aren't?
I have noticed that the viewfinders in DSLRs have lower magnification that they used to in the film SLRs, but I don't know why. DX is even worse.
It's two years sice I abandoned DSLR for mirrorless, so the waiting for a HVF would be long. In the meantime a D800EVF would have been nice, I think. The "minority" who want an EVF may shrink in the Nikon camp. For 2016 33% of shipment of cameras from Japan is mirrorless, so the minority, me included, may have already moved or is moving to mirrorless.
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The camera makers are partly to blame for the miseries of poor finders, as the focus (sic) on the brightest possible finders for AF with dim AF lenses of dubious 'speed' erode away the features required for reliable MF focusing. The latter requirements are more coarse-grained finders, less bright, and with the ability to make the eye hold on to a slice of the aerial image coinciding with the focusing screen.
Fortunately, third-party replacement screens exist. They solve some of the worst issues.
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My MF keeper rate on my A7 is the highest from any camera I have had so far.
I stopped using focus peaking and instead upped the sharpening to +3 (Creative Style/ your picture mode/ Sharpness), which does not affect the images shooting RAW.
You can then see the shimmering pixels where you focus and in combination with the magnifier (not always needed) it works very well for me.
Focus peaking is not very accurate at wide apertures and disturbs the view too much for me.
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Arend, I'm not sure how your sharpening suggestion works? Set Jpeg, increase sharpness to +3 and then focus peaking works better?
I'll go get my a7R and play with this idea.
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Andrea, you do not have to set to JPEG.
In the Camera setting (camera icon top left in menu) select 4 "Creative Style".
I have mine on "Standard" and if you then click to the right you can set Contrast, Saturation and Sharpness.
Increase Sharpness to +3 et Voila.
Hope this helps, give it a try.
And I use this instead of focus peaking, so not to make focus peaking make work better.
This shimmering shows up best on textures.
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Yes I do have +3 Sharpness set, [EDIT] but I do not see a "shimmer"?
However, this is not all that important. I'm getting the focus with the Magnifier for my manual lenses via Live View. So I'm happy.
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Before anyone goes too far into another OVF/EVF discussion,
that war is over and both OVF and EVF lost.
The NO-Viewfinder Cellphone Camera won. ;D ;D ;D
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I see you were already editing while I was typing, so you tried it without focus peaking now.
The shimmering shows most on textures, in any case give it some time to get used to it - it works well for me.
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Another trick is to use a black and white creative style, have the effect show in the EVF and use yellow focus peaking.
I'm slightly color blind so this setup enabled me to see the focus peaking under most conditions with the 35/1.2 and 125/2.5. On UWA lenses I have to use the zooming feature as the focus peaking zone isn't fine enough to nail the focus on close ranges.
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Arend: I for sure will keep trying! A lot of the "problem" is simply the new-ness of a new camera. It takes a couple of weeks to build confidence about finding settings and so forth. And lots & lots of experimentation. I'm getting there.
JA: Cool trick! I will also try this.
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i have mixed feelings about this. i like my VF to be as uncluttered as possible :o :o :o
I feel the same way.
Dave
I longing for the day when a force field will replace the moving mirror. :)
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It also helps to have a dirty focusing screen ... makes it much easier for the eye to align itself to the slice of the 3-D aerial image coinciding with the ground glass.