NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => What the Nerds Do => Topic started by: Tristin on March 07, 2016, 03:58:41
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While shooting at the beach recently, I think I got a little sand in my 105mm f/1.8, so tomorrow I plan on getting it out now that I have some JIS screwdrivers. While I am in there, I'd like to see what I can do about f/22 recently becoming difficult to turn to/out of. Any knowledge is much appreciated!
Funny enough, I took very few shots with the 105mm at the beach and all while standing. Changed to the 50mm on my backpack which layed on a clean sheet. Proceeded to do plenty of shooting with the 50mm laying dug into the sand while a child threw sand at me and my camera. The 50mm seems to have no sand in it. Go figure. ::)
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Sorry, I think you lost me there. so, you cannot turn your aperture ring to f/22?
if that's it then it is a simple fix :o :o :o
just remove your bayonet mount and clean the sand from the aperture ring and the mount. clean off the old grease and re-grease it. 8)
i doubt that the sand has gone inside and jammed the aperture horn deep inside the lens. even if it did you would have removed the sand on it by simply flicking your aperture open and close for a couple of times.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNMErPx7-pc
before i open up a lens for cleaning, i always try and see if somebody else has something uploaded. one of the first places that i go to is daitocamera and mikeno62 on youtube :o :o :o
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The aperature ring started getting a bit difficult to turn into/out of f/22 about a month ago, no idea why. Well before the beach trip. Sand is the suspected culprit for a slight gritty feeling on one end of the focus ring that manifested immediately following the beach trip.
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The aperature ring started getting a bit difficult to turn into/out of f/22 about a month ago, no idea why. Well before the beach trip. Sand is the suspected culprit for a slight gritty feeling on one end of the focus ring that manifested immediately following the beach trip.
it's probably dirty, that is the first culprit :o :o :o
another might be that the detent spring might have been damaged (unlikely).
lease likely is something getting into the iris assembly. you will never know until you open it up ::)
it's like pain when you pee. it can be a lot of things, specially if you are a bad boy ::) for people with kidney problems like me, just drink more water ::)
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Also, just realized I had no grease. Perhaps I should have some ready before dissembly? What would you recommend?
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well, depends on the lens you might just get away without even the need to grease the aperture ring :o :o :o
the grease that I use is what I would recommend (S10), but since the aperture ring is not part of the focusing unit then silicone grease should be OK. so long as you clean the old stuff away first. just put a little. a little goes a long way when talking about aperture rings. the most important part to grease is the slots where the detent goes as well as the surfaces where it comes into contact with other parts of the lens. it will squeak if you dont lubricate that. you can try using it without the grease first and see if it's OK.
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;D mikeno62 is a repairman in the camera store here in CPH, One Of Many Cameras where Bjørn and I go often to scavenge the shelfs - He's a really nice and skilled guy.
Anyway, it sounds like a grin of sand has entered the aperture ring /aperture lever assembly - Not the aperture as such
Try removing the mount and examine the inside of the aperture ring/leavers,,,
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yes, he is a very nice guy :o :o :o
i will do an interview on him in the coming months
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(http://i.imgur.com/prTtQBx.jpg)
I will be refering to the pie es as A, B and C from left to right.
So I cleaned the helicoids and re-greased them. Now I have gotten stuck at re-assmbling as I can not seem to get the helicoils to screw back together. I got B and C screwed together after a lot of attenpts, but not sure how. Then I couldnt get them to screw onto A. So I took B and C apart with the idea to attempt getting A and B together, then putting C on. What am I doing wrong in putting the helicoils together?
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did you mark where your helicoids separate? :o :o :o
they should only be mated on a certain position...if not then your focuing will be off or you will not be able to put your lens back ::)
did you take pictures along the way?
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I did not mark where the helicoids separate, I was working under the assumption that I could put the two together and lightly rotate them until they caught. Looks like I lined myself up with hours of trial and error. :'(
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I did not mark where the helicoids separate, I was working under the assumption that I could put the two together and lightly rotate them until they caught. Looks like I lined myself up with hours of trial and error. :'(
yes, looks like it :o :o :o
or you can watch some videos to give you a hint
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I've gotten A and B to go together a few times, though the never closed together fully so it was not the correct position. I did notice though, that as it got near the end of tightening it got gritty. The helicoid in B that attaches it to A is the only one I did not clean as I have no idea how to access it. Is it the one screw next to "Made in Japan"? If so, what tool do I need for that?
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do you have a clear picture of it? :o :o :o
usually, screw drivers are OK
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(http://i.imgur.com/AQzSQYf.jpg)
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jesus! what a close up! :o :o :o
it might be just a set screw (-) with the slot painted over with paint. Nikon uses paint to cover up the set screws. you can try and carefully scratch the surface and see if it is indeed a (-) set screw.
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(http://i.imgur.com/HYa9g61.jpg)
I looks like the screwhead is on the inside actually. You can see that the helicoid is not accessible, and I see no way to remove it :-\
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well, for something like that, the screws are probably under that rubber grip :o :o :o
have you read my tear-downs? this lens should have a lot in common with the 85mm and 55mm that i posted in my blog.
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I removed the rubber grip and there is a strip of tape running around the barrel under it. Is this safe to remove and does it need to be replaced?
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Good Luck, man.
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I cut a small area of tape out to access the screw and it is indeed a set screw. What tool do I need for this?
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that tape is for aligning the infinity mark :o :o :o
if you look at my repair notes you will see that nikon loves using scotch tape for this part ::)
always remember to mark anything before you separate them!
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Thanks. What tool do I use for the set screw?
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just a small precision screwdriver. :o :o :o
be careful. they can be fragile
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Yeah, their fragility surprised me. I already stripped two screws. Luckily they turned out to be screws I do not need to remove for this job, but I already screwed myself for the future, not feeling very good. :-\
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have you tried reading the first few posts in my blog? they pretty much cover these things because i have been in the same mess and i dont want anybody to destgroy their lens because of that :o :o :o
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Didn't see those posts until now.
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Didn't see those posts until now.
i am going to buy some set screws this or next month. if you ruined one, i can probably give you a replacement :o :o :o
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I didn't ruin the set screw as I do not currently have a tool to remove it. I stripped one of the two screws that holds the aperature ring on, and one of the side facing mount screws.
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i just got 200 screws for the aperture ring. i bought them last week :o :o :o
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When/if I get around to replacing the stripped screws, I will PM you and send you funds. Thanks Richard. Now it looks like I need to find a screwdriver to deal with the set screw and spend another day trying to get the helicoids lined back up. :( I would not have thought they would be assembled in such a fashion, does not seem logical to provide no markings for parts than can be put together in many incorrect positions. Well, I know for the future.
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that's OK the screws are cheap anyway. believe me, that lens is easy compared to zooms. AF-D lenses can also be a pain. AF-S lenses are also annoying. I fixed my 24-70 f/2.8 before and i swore not to take apart any AF-S lenses again :o :o :o
some AF-S lenses are easy by the way. i just hate puzzles and electronics. that is why i like old cameras old cars and old lenses
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It is a good thing I have no interest in zooms. As much as I am hating this process, I need to be able to do basic repairs such as this on my own lenses. I can not afford to pay for simple repairs like these and refuse to not use my gear due to issues like sand possibly getting in the lens.
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Good luck with the re-assembly, Tristin. I hope the 'original' problem is fixed...
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I'm sorry that we have created an impression that repairing lenses is easy DIY work,,, It's not,,,
As already stated:
Helicoils must be marked before disassembly or the whole functionality of the lens is lost, infinity etc.
You may be extremely lucky and the person assembling or repairing the lens has made marks for you! Check carefully for these marks!
Or you will have to trial and error assemble the two sets of threads where you 'think' is the right position, mark that, reassemble the whole lens and check infinity,,, it only takes about 4-8 hours to go through the possibilities and; Mark new position re-assemble check fail - think mark re-assemble check fail - think mark re,,,,,,,, and success will come at a some point ;)
The threads are precision geometry that only go together when they are aligned 100% in all planes and must be absolutely clean,,,
If you force the threads at any point you will newer have smooth focus again ever,,,
Sorry.
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Erik, I do not feel anyone made it seem easy. I jus5 somehow missed the whole marking the helicoid part. :-\
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the first time i cleaned a manual lens (200mm f/4 Ai-S) I forgot to mark the helicoids. it took me the whole evening to determine the proper position. :o :o :o
that is why i repeat "mark where the helicoids separate" more than 3x in all of my tear downs hahaha
nikon sometimes marks where the helicoids should join. you will know if nikon did that or not simply by looking at how it was marked (by a machinist).
sometimes, landmarks give you clues on where things should go. like the letter "i" in "made in Japan" or a screw mark.
buying repair manuals would do you no good as most of the repair manuals that I saw from Nikon (official, the real deal) will never tell you where helicoids separate
the videos on youtube should give you a hint.
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Technical Writing is an art-form ;)
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The only video of a 105mm 1.8 i found was an assembly in stop motion, did not see anything of help with the helicoids. Will be spending tomorrow trying and will report back.
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There is some logic involved as to how the lens is put back together; At infinity the whole lens assembly is at a minimum build length so the threads are almost at limit of their length.
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yes. always work at infinity :o :o :o
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I tried the smallest slot screwdriver I could find locally (3/64") but it is too large. adoes anyone know what I would need to access this? I'm ot even sure this is what will release the helicoid from this section, but I cannot see any other way
(http://i.imgur.com/lMGsRKR.jpg)
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Just get a smaller screwdriver,,, Micro-Tools has the ones you need
Also the tape you see holds the two parts together, infinity adjustment as Rick told you.
Usually this is the first part you remove :)
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So . . . I need to remove the tape? As I do not not how to adjust this, I am afraid to remove it unless it is necessary to get to the helicoid I need to clean. I am already looking at who knows how many hours of getting my helicoids lined up properly. :-\
Also, Micro-tools has precision slotted screwdrivers in 1.2, 1.5 and 1.8mm. The one I tried, which was too big, was roughly 2.4mm. Which one should I try? Im guessing the thickness of the tip is a non-issue as they do not state it?
Thanks for all the help guys. :) Total amateur at work :P
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Based on the 85/1.4 Ais and 135/2 Ais that I have partially disassembled, the scotch tape can be removed no problem. Make sure you have fresh tape on hand to replace it when you reassemble. I used the tough Scotch Package Sealing Tape. Use magnified live view to re-calibrate infinity focus. Remember that for a normal or tele lens, Infinity = 3 miles, 5 miles away, not across the street.
As an alternative to buying[and waiting for delivery of] new screwdrivers, you can file down an existing screwdriver. I have many "junk" so-called jeweler's screwdrivers that I can sacrifice. Those small slot screws need a very close fit as much as the cross headed screws need the exact fit of JIS screwdrivers.
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Regarding the tape, do I need to remove it to get to the helicoid inside the focus ring? I'd rather not unless necessary. Of course, i do not know how to gain access to this helicoid, which is my current problem.
As for the screwdriver, I'd like to just purchase one that fits as i don't want to chance stripping such a tiny and buried screw. Hoping someone knows, otherwise I'm gonna order a 1.5mm and give it a whirl.
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you can safely remove that.
read this to see how and what the tape is used for :o :o :o
http://richardhaw.com/2016/01/30/project-zoom-nikkor-80-200mm-f4-ai-s/
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So it is only covering the shims? Ok. I ordered a 1.5mm and a 1.2mm slot screwdriver from micro-tools and will give it a go as soon as they arrive. I'll let you guys know which worked best.
Not looking forward to getting the helicoids together! :P
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its just to keep the focusing ring together. :o :o :o
dont lose hope. if i did it with the 200mm f/4 Ai-s on my first try then you can do it as well
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I find that pretty shocking that only scotch tape holds them together. i wondered what the screw I just ordered screwdrivers is for.
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Don't use the milky white Scotch tape, its so slippery that the rubber focus ring slips instead of focussing the lens :o :o :o
Good luck btw, been there with the helicoids and it can become frustrating.
Just grap a beer to calm the nerves and stabilise the hands 8)
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Thanks Jan. The 105mm being one of the only two lenses I own, it is quite the nervous situation! A beer will come in handy. :)
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did you take pictures of the helicoid before you separate it? :o :o :o
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No, I had no idea they could be put together in several incorrect manners. I have accepted the hours of trial and error to come. ::) Live and learn. I think that when I do get it right, I will make sure to make a small nick in the paint for the future.
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did you watch the video that i posted on page 1? i watched it again and it is all that you need to get that thing back together. :o :o :o
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I did not. I obviously should have done more preparation instead of diving in blind. Too cocky I guess. :P I will certainly be going through your blog while I wait on the screwdrivers. Many thanks Richard, I owe you!
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daitocamera's video is in Japanese but even with the audio off you can still pick up what he is trying to do :o :o :o
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Oh . . . my. I somehow missed that link, at first I thought you meant on the first page of your blog . . . have you ever looked around for something you "couldn't find", only to realize it was in your hand while you searched . . . that's me right now! :-[
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Well, good and bad news. i decided to take the tape off, and it exposed the helicoid I was trying to get to! Bad part, is did not thinking of making a measurement with my caliper before doing so. Which I should have. There is no shim however, so I am hoping the two parts simply fit snug.
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the tape there is just to hold that thing together :o :o :o
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For a job like this you need screwdrivers in all sizes! I think I have at least 20 different just for lenses,,,
I would not recommend you to start off with making your own screwdrivers unless you know what your doing,,, there is a lot to lean about screwdrivers as well,,, If made wrong they will ruin the screws,,,
Looks like your not giving up - That's admirable!
Please do not start to take out the lens elements!
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Erik, I have no intentions or want to do anymore than is needed. Cleaning the helicoids. If i ever need to remove elements to make a repair, I will do so, but will far more preparation than I did this time!
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I feel I am completely stuck now. :'( In trying to assemble the focus ring sectin to the section behind it, I can not get it to seat far enough down. I found 4 positions the helicoids will join, including the one Daito successfully joins it at, but all of them get stuck at the same depth. I measured it to check. I cleaned the helicoids again thoroughly to make sure there was no obstruction, but it made no difference. After a couple hours of attempting, I don't know how I could possibly have missed the correct position. Anyone know what could be causing this?
I am stuck at the section Daito works on in his video at 40:30
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make sure that the innermost helicoid is not obstructing :o :o :o
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It was the small screw next to "Made in Japan" being screwed in too far. Got that end of the lens together finally, then found out I need to insert the inner helicoid that joins the focus ring to the front half of the lens into the focus ring before the front can go on. So took it back apart, and am now trying to get the inner helicoid to co-operate with the focus ring and those brass posts. Slowly, but surely.
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Well, finally got it together and working. F/22 is no longer any tougher to turn to and the focus ring grit is gone. Now, however, there is more resistance when focusing between 4.5-8 ft. Ha! I am pretty sure it has to do with the alignment of those brass posts and the focus ring being just a hair off. I will tackle it another day, just happy it is working again without sand in it. Will test infinity focus tomorrow when there is light.
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YES! Now I am confident to send you my Zeiss 12mm, the front assembly is loose. ;D
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Well, finally got it together and working. F/22 is no longer any tougher to turn to and the focus ring grit is gone. Now, however, there is more resistance when focusing between 4.5-8 ft. Ha! I am pretty sure it has to do with the alignment of those brass posts and the focus ring being just a hair off. I will tackle it another day, just happy it is working again without sand in it. Will test infinity focus tomorrow when there is light.
that is normal when you first greased it.v :o :o :o
after applying fresh grease, i usually break it in by turning each helicoid pair a couple of times with my hand until the grease was completely spread evenly. another is the brass posts (helicoid keys) need to be grease as well.
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YES! Now I am confident to send you my Zeiss 12mm, the front assembly is loose. ;D
I charge $120/hr, I hope you understand that experience and knowledge are worth paying for. ;)
Richard, it does seem better after a night of toying with it. Was a pretty frustrating experience, but I now feel confident about being able to maintain my lenses.
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Happy to hear you got it together again!
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Thanks Eric. There were some times when I felt like throwing the lens through a wall, but I remembered Jan's advice and grabbed a beer. :D
Now that I feel comfortable dissembling/assembling Ai lenses, I am thinking of sticking to manual lenses for practicality of maintenance and repairs. Are modern lenses any different when it comes to doing routine maintenance? I love manual lenses and do not envy handling modern lenses, but there are a couple tempters like the 20mm 1.8g who have no manual competitors.
Couple thing worth sharing i nearly forgot to add!
I used Tri-Flow for lube and it feels great. Saw a guy who does lens teardowns/repairs on youtube as Mikeno62 recommend it and says it is very stable.
I ordered a 1.2mm and a 1.5mm slot srewdriver and found the 1.2mm a good size for tackling those micro screws that holds the front barrel in place. 1.5mm was a bit big. I was determined to get my lens working yesterday, despite not receiving those screwdrivers yet, so I resorted to snapping the very tip of an Xacto blade off with pliers and made my own micro slot screwdriver, which worked. After using it successfully, I step outside for some air and guess what package arrives? Ha! ::)
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I would suggest not to take AF lenses apart as 'routine maintenance' they are only to be opened if there is something wrong, repair. Also they need to be calibrated if opened,,,
Tri-Flow is only for the extremely fine threads of Leica lenses I belive... Yes Mikeno62 is our local repair guru here in Copenhagen, super nice guy.
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I only open AF-D lenses to clean the elements :o :o :o
i hate them
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Then no AF for me.
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Congrats Tristin!