NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: Hermann on January 09, 2016, 08:43:51
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Lasst week I met an old guy on my local patch. He was shooting some overwintering geese, using an old Nikkor 600/5.6 with a Nikon D2H with more than 300.000 clicks on the clock. Yeah right - manual focusing and all of 4.1 megapixels. He later mailed me a couple of the shots he took on that day, and they looked pretty good on the computer screen. Not the sort of quality you need for making large prints, but they looked pretty good nevertheless.
That really made me wonder, especially after the introduction of the D5 and the D500. Sure, modern cameras have (much) higher resolution and better autofocus, much better ISO performance and so on. And the shots that old guy took would have looked much better if he had used, say, a D4 or a D7200 or whatever. But do you really need a modern camera with all the bells and whistles if you don't intend to publish large prints of you photos? Sure, I want to get a D500 myself, once the prices have come down a bit and it's clear there aren't any bugs, but like I said, that old guy and his - by modern standards - ancient camera really made me think.
Over here a lot of young birdwatchers are getting into photography at the moment, and many of them can't afford to buy the latest and the greatest. So I meet quite a few people who get themselves bridge cameras or entry level DSLRs like the D3200/3300. I think they'd be better off buying a D300 or even a D200 which can be had for well under 300 euros now. Most of them have something like 15.000 to 30.000 clicks on the clock which isn't really all that much for these cameras, I think. And some older AF lenses can also be found cheaply, such as the first version of the AF 300/f4 with a converter. They'll definitely miss out on a few shots, mainly because of the slower autofocus, but I think you can get pretty good results even with these "old" cameras.
So, what do you think - how important is owning the latest gear? And what would recommend a newbie to get? A D3200 or a D3300 or rather an "old" D300 that can be had at less than the same price?
Hermann
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Get something that works for you. Don't fuss about what other people select or do. It is not very relevant.
There is no harm in having access to quality gear but on its own that won't give anything worth while unless you understand what you are doing and have the visions to accomplish this. Too much of the photography shown these days is really boring being all form and little content. One definitively won't need expensive gear to make boring pictures. The other way around, you can get superb photographs from cheaper cameras. Thus in the end this is all up to the photographer.
I still do a lot of product shots with my old D2H, by the way. The camera works, and delivers. I have had double page spreads in magazines done with that camera. As long as I manage to charge its batteries will continue to use it. Or come to think of it, I might have an A/C adapter stashed somewhere.
The image that earned me the most money over time was done with a D70.
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For me it was always about the joy of making photos. Not the gear that I used to achieve the results.
I am still shooting a D200 and a D300 :)
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One is still are able to put older equipment like the D700, D300 D200 and older glass (including MF superteles) in good use. I still have for instance the 400 mm f/3,5.
From time to time I feel the lust for buying newer gear but its not because it's needed under any circumstances. No need to confuse ones mind in a mania for keeping pace with newest models and always aquiring the newest
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One thing that camera salesmen always fail to point out is that older cameras do not stop functioning when newer cameras are released.
In fact my 14 year old Kodak DC4800 still works.
Funny that.
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as long as batteries and spare parts are still available, a Cameras lifetime should not be as short as the lifespan of a car
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So, what do you think - how important is owning the latest gear?
Hermann
That is the prominent behavioral trait of our time and one might suspect that the whole "consumerism" issue have spun out of control. I consider myself a sensible guy, but even I feel a twitch in the "upgrade center" of the brain when new equipment are announced. But the whole idea of making pictures are probably less than 5% camera and gear. The most important tools are still the brain and the connections between the brain, the eye and the index finger. The only thing one can't buy, but have to train. When I get new gear, the first thing I do is to identify what it can do and what it can't do. Then I consider what it was I wanted it to do. If there is a mismatch between the two, I try to create "workarounds" so that my intentions are met. Most of the times I find that these "workarounds" is enough. Usually I find that I really learn to use my cameras after a couple of years of intense use. My test is if I am able to configure the camera in total darkness. I feel like total moron if I have to stand in front of a subject scrolling thru menus to get the camera to behave the way I want it to.
So the main point I want highlight are, get any camera you want, but learn it`s quirks, pros and cons.
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whatever camera you buy - grow into it and grow out of it before you upgrade.
The best camera is the one in your hand.
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..............and when you cannot reach for the fruit at the top of the tree, you can always claim it is bitter.
D5 on order 8)
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I guess any of us DO own a lot of things we do not really need. We did buy them because we can. Why not.
Currently I use a D3 and a D600. While the D3 is good enough for any practical purpose, I get a lot more leverage from the D600. So if light levels tend to be low or I intend to crop later or I plan for really big prints, I take the D600. The D3 is fun to use, because she has superior ergonomics so I like to have a D600 in a D3 housing. The D5 is very close, alas the initial offering price seems to be 7000 Euro. The D3 was 5000 initial offering and 4000 when I bought her. I do not think this rise is justified.
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One important thing imho is, not to force and confuse yourself to use all features just because they are part of the package you bought
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Brings some memories back when shooting with the D2H, I thought it was fantastic camera when I got it. Going trough different models afterwards nothing felt as good until the D3 (got it used for good price). To me it is not about megapixels, all I care about is decent AF and high ISO capabilities. However as I prefer to shoot handheld the D3 is getting heavy so my camera of choice is the Df right now. I don't think I will be getting the new D5 even if I could afford it, the body is just too heavy and large for my purposes so I prefer smaller but as capable if possible (don't really need the fps machine gun).
I usually tell people who come to me asking which camera to buy to go to the store and get the one which feels the best in their hands.
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I guess any of us DO own a lot of things we do not really need. We did buy them because we can.
Quite right. And that's basically what makes our economies work - people buying things they don't need. I know I've got lots of things I don't need. And breaking that habit isn't always easy, whether it be cameras or, for instance, cars. On the other hand modern cameras are undoubtedly better than old cameras (I'm only talking about digital cameras here), but I've got a feeling many people forget that you can get very good results with older gear.
But the whole idea of making pictures are probably less than 5% camera and gear. The most important tools are still the brain and the connections between the brain, the eye and the index finger. The only thing one can't buy, but have to train. When I get new gear, the first thing I do is to identify what it can do and what it can't do. Then I consider what it was I wanted it to do. If there is a mismatch between the two, I try to create "workarounds" so that my intentions are met. Most of the times I find that these "workarounds" is enough. Usually I find that I really learn to use my cameras after a couple of years of intense use.
That's a really important point, I think. And it's the reason why the industry tries to sell us "simple" products - because we then don't need quite so much time to learn to get decent results. Simplified user interfaces, fewer buttons, program modes for everything and anything. Learning how to use a complex product takes time, a lot of time. Only after you put in that effort you'll get really good results.
Hermann
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..............and when you cannot reach for the fruit at the top of the tree, you can always claim it is bitter.
D5 on order 8)
:D
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I feel the itch of NAS coming on big time, but then rationality steps in and slaps me round the head and I realise that there is nothing about the D5 that I can't live without, especially the price! :'( :'( :'(
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I feel the itch of NAS coming on big time, but then rationality steps in and slaps me round the head and I realise that there is nothing about the D5 that I can't live without, especially the price! :'( :'( :'(
anyway, I think an FX camera with the D5 sensor and AF module with the D810 body style shouldn't be to far into the future
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... Usually I find that I really learn to use my cameras after a couple of years of intense use...
I did find myself in that situation , it is pleasing to pick up the camera and know exactly how to make it do what you are intending it to do,
It does take me time to reach such level of confidence, than I start screwing up, and need to pay attention again, to fell confident again, the cycle repeats endlessly
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Sometimes I shoot film with a 30 y/o old camera. (Old camera but new medium ... Okay not quite apples to apples.)
For me, it is all about capturing the exceptional image. Better hardware, typically, makes that capture easier and increases consistency. For what I shoot and how I shoot ... and for most of us, after a certain baseline of IQ, better hardware does very little if anything in contributing to the success value of an image.
Presently, my main cameras are Fuji's @ 16mp. (Yes, there are many factors other than MP's that affect IQ ... But I'm just addressing MP's for now just to keep it simple. But life and photography are never simple.) Generally, I find 16mp sufficient for my needs as I don't print larger than 16x13. I don't shoot much landscape or architecture, mainly people doing stuff, from Streets to Sports to Theatre. For me, at 16mp, image impact (composition/timing/lighting) has a significantly greater impact on success than image quality.
But I think 4mp is a bit below that said baseline.
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I have no car acqusition drive in me. If I had 200.000 excess I might get a Tesla.
For my car requirements the Golf3 does everything I need and the Golf7 has several disadvantages
spare part price and unnecessary electronics to begin with....
For the price of a D5 body .... 7000€ .... I can buy a whole Fuji or Sony or Olympus sytem with many lenses.
I could also think into the Tele Direction or invite my Kids to visit Gary or let some professionals built a new
Website plus direct mailing to acquire new food photo customers....
In the end it is about the decision what I want to achieve.
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If I hadn't gone on a lengthy hiatus and sold all my gear, I'd still have my 5d (the original) assuming it still worked. Though I wouldn't trade my D750 for 4 5ds now hehe! I suspect I'll be using my D750 until it departs from this world.
As for recommending cameras to new users, I've done that recently. Get their budget and what they need it to do, find the best combo to fit the constraints. For my friend it turned out to be an Olympus E-M5 with a fast 20mm and a couple kit level zooms. Performed spectacularly on his SE Asia trek and fit his budget.
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Tristin. Yes. A hammer for one purpose, a wrench for another .... Cluedo...
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Armando, I think you may well be right, and hopefully the hated pop up flash will disappear! I think it significant it has gone from the D500!
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Armando, I think you may well be right, and hopefully the hated pop up flash will disappear! I think it significant it has gone from the D500!
Given the high-ISO performance of current digital cameras in general, the integrated flashes should be one of the least necessary item. Now that Nikon finally incorporated the radio controled speedlight system, there should be even less need for the integrated flash for general purposes.
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Does the onboard flash really bother anyone?
It doesn't bother me at all. In fact I forget there was one on the D800
P mode bothers me more - I have to scroll past it all the time.
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"P" is for professional, Elsa :D
The pop-up flash is a two-edged sword. On occasion might be useful, however it weakens the camera construction all the time. I have solved the pop-up flash issue on the few of my cameras having it by glueing it permanently with liberal amounts of epoxy.
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"P" is for professional, Elsa :D
The pop-up flash is a two-edged sword. On occasion might be useful, however it weakens the camera construction all the time. I have solved the pop-up flash issue on the few of my cameras having it by glueing it permanently with liberal amounts of epoxy.
The Fierce Epoxy Bear has a point.
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... Now that Nikon finally incorporated the radio controled speedlight system, there should be even less need for the integrated flash for general purposes.
Correct me if I am wrong but, but as far as I understand a D500 will not communicate with an SB-5000 by itself. I think it needs the WR-R10 plus an adapter for the 10-pin port ($150-$200 total). Not sure about the SB5000 side. Thus built in commander, IR or RF is in effect "lost". (Why hasn't the WR-R10 functionality been incorporated into the body?) I wonder how much that device is going to interfere with an L-bracket.
That said, getting a better viewfinder might be a good trade off.
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I see it similar to Bjørn
it is unvavorable to the mechanical quality and may be subject to unwanted triggering the flashes unlock mechanism
but there are situations where no other flash is available and it comes handy (dont want to throw away my radioless cls flashes BTW)
High ISO does not replace flash under all circumstances (fill in flash, highlights in the eyes), built in flash is of limited use but sometimes better than nothing
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"P" is for professional, Elsa :D
I thought it meant Portrait....
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I thought it meant Portrait....
No it means Picture of course ;)
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I've always disliked onboard flashes as well, mainly for aesthetics. Though I did manage to take one genuinely excellent picture with it once. And only once. Seeing as how I am generally pretty safe with my cameras, I'm not too worried about the onboard flash's structural durability. Besides, the worse that can happen is it gets ripped off and it no longer functions . . . no impact on my usage of the camera. Although I would certainly trade it away for even a small, but noticeable, increase in viewfinder size.
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No it means Picture of course ;)
and S standing shot
A - asshole mode
M ? I need help here.
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and S standing shot
A - asshole mode
M ? I need help here.
M Manually, help yourself
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A = amateur
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I thought it meant Portrait....
Nah, it means PJ-style shooting. PJ means practical joke, of course.
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P = Pussy mode
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Correct me if I am wrong but, but as far as I understand a D500 will not communicate with an SB-5000 by itself. I think it needs the WR-R10 plus an adapter for the 10-pin port ($150-$200 total). Not sure about the SB5000 side. Thus built in commander, IR or RF is in effect "lost". (Why hasn't the WR-R10 functionality been incorporated into the body?) I wonder how much that device is going to interfere with an L-bracket.
That said, getting a better viewfinder might be a good trade off.
I'm not sure of the compatibilty between D500 and SB-5000. But at least it is true that Nikon has incorporated flash system that don't depend on the optical commander with D5.
The efficient shielding against the electro magnatic interference is imperative for Nikon, as the flagship models are used by Japaese self-defence force, and the camera has to function properly in an Aegis ship. So, any radio-related system cannot be integrated into the body.
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and S standing shot
A - asshole mode
M ? I need help here.
S and A is interpreted quite fine
M means "Magic" of course ;)
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M = Morons
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M Manually, help yourself
:P ;D ;)
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Does the onboard flash really bother anyone?
It does bother me. In fact the pop-up flash in the D810 is partly responsible for skin damage occurring when using the shift lock of the PC-E 24. Last week due to frost bite, and back many years ago with the D700 the skin wore off my fingers trying to use the lock. The issue is that the pop-up flash housing doesn't allow the shift translator knob to be on that side of the camera (no problem on D3X for example, or other pop-up free Nikons), so for shifts along the long axis of the frame, the translator knob has to go on the opposite side (camera base) and the shift lock knob is under the flash housing overhang (with D3X it is in front of it). Both knobs are easy to access with the pop-up free cameras but a pain to use on pop-up "featuring" cameras. Last week accessing the knob forced me to take off my gloves (in -25 to -19 C, 100% RH, 8m/s wind) leading to a host of painful red spots on my right hand. If the D810 (which is the best camera to use with the 24 PC-E because of its image quality, if it were not for mechanical problems) didn't have the pop-up flash, my hands would be in better shape. Also when using the lens on D3X, it can be taken off in almost any orientation, and then, depending on the orientation it was in, it can't be mounted on a camera with pop-up intrusion, without rotating it back to a specific orientation where it can be mounted on the D810, and the only easy way to do this rotation is to mount it back on the D3X and figure out what the correct exit strategy is, that allows it to be mounted on pop-up flash cameras. One could argue that it's a design problem of the lens, or the cameras, either way, it is a pain for me to use the lens with the D810 (or D800, or D700).
Also it is my experience that using the pop-up as a commander is a big hassle and practically never results in acceptable photographs. There is leakage of light (even when turning it to commander only, the sync flash pollutes the foreground of the scene), there is almost 100% eye blinks or squints in at least some of the subjects (this can apparently be avoided by adding a strange add on device to the flash), and the recycle time is almost eternity when trying to catch good expressions in a group shot, basically after a few flashes quickly, it seems like the flash needs to cool down for 20 seconds before it lets the camera fire again. None of these problems exist with the SU-800. To me the pop-up flash is a feature that interferes with the way I work and I'm willing to pay significant extra money for a camera body just so that it doesn't have the pop-up.
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Correct me if I am wrong but, but as far as I understand a D500 will not communicate with an SB-5000 by itself. I think it needs the WR-R10 plus an adapter for the 10-pin port ($150-$200 total). Not sure about the SB5000 side. Thus built in commander, IR or RF is in effect "lost". (Why hasn't the WR-R10 functionality been incorporated into the body?) I wonder how much that device is going to interfere with an L-bracket.
The SB-5000 has the receiver built in but the camera needs the WR-R10 (and adapter if the camera is one with the 10-pin connector). However the same WR-R10 is the receiver for radio triggering of the camera, and so it does double duty and is worth the money.
The MC-30 cord gets very stiff when frozen and it is difficult to avoid some vibration with 100% confidence when using it in those conditions, which is why I ordered the radio triggering kit. I will be able to use it also for triggering SB-5000 and likely other future Nikon flashes, with the right camera body. This is smart design. Apparently it needs a firmware upgrade to function as a flash trigger though.
Hopefully it won't interfere with L brackets. It's up to the designer of the bracket to some extent. I find it annoying that the MC-30 doesn't fit well with the RRS L bracket for the D3 family. Also with the D750 and Kirk L bracket if I want to use the Nikon remote cord I can't quite center the bracket on the head, in vertical orientation. Either problem is solved by mounting the bracket so that there is a gap. Bracket designers should think about what they're doing and try all the standard accessories.
That said, getting a better viewfinder might be a good trade off.
If they use it for that, it makes me very happy.
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Nikon makes a small, easily pocketable flash that can be quickly snapped onto the hot shoe... if flash is needed.
The prism housing overhanging the aperture scale is an extreme annoyance. Canon doesn't have the overhang, do they?
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S is for Snapshot.
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Ilkka, do you know whether the D750 plus WR-R10 can wirelessly control an SB-5000? Or do we have to wait for a firmware upgrade?
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Pluton,
The overhang of the plastic prism cap which houses the pop up flash is need by the flash so it can peek over various lenses and lens hoods. When flipped up the length becomes height. I use my pop up from time o time for very light fill but I also accidentally pop it up from time to time when I don't want it. It also catches on my small camera case. My vote is take pop up off. I'd prefer all space on top given to a better prism and viewfinder.
Dave
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" He was shooting some overwintering geese, using an old Nikkor 600/5.6 with a Nikon D2H with more than 300.000 clicks on the clock."
I would most certainly recommend a Nikon D300s to him provided that he can use a DK-20M eyepiece with glasses. I can't. I need bifocals to see the LCD on the top of my cameras. The dynamice range of the D2H v. D300s is night and day. I was so relieved to move from a D2H to a D300s. I would recommend the D300s over the D300 for the easy access to live view for critical focus. I found cropping almost prohibited on the D2H due to it only having 4.1MP.
I recently sold my D2H for $185.00 (USD). The price of the D300s must be sinking like a rock but its capabilities are pretty good.
The 600/5.6 ED-IF AIS would be a nice lens to own.
Dave
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Oops I seemed to have quoted myself. :-[