NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Lens Talk => Topic started by: Fons Baerken on January 06, 2016, 20:27:41
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(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1545/23916279850_2d16e5cd69_o.jpg)
this 105mm/f2DC is one of my favourite lenses for delicate skintones
just a spontaneous shot of my granddaughter while she munches on a cookie
Df 105mm @ f3.2 iso 1130
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Yes, I like the 105 DC a lot. A pity it has the propensity to self-destruct spontaneously by splitting apart along the A/M selector ring. My first sample did that on a mountain peak in the Czech Republic some years ago. Nikon couldn't fix it as they were out of spare parts. A close friend did a makeshift repair after I gave the lens parts to him. He forced the lens halves together with tape and rely on AF, as the manual focusing is gone forever. He is a happy camper though.
Later, I yielded and purchased another 105 DC. This time, the A/M ring is literally sealed for eternity by epoxy and tape.
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I remember you mentioned that before; on shots like this i have to rely on af pinpoint focussing on the eye.
Imho Nikon is long overdue on updating a few longer primes the 105mm f/2, 135mm f/2, 180 or 200mm f/2.8,
although not necessarily optically.
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I love the 105DC, it has the almost magical ability to make the (people) subjects look good without touch-ups. I wish Nikon updated this lens with AF-S.
I had major focus problems with my 105 DC when combined with my D800 which required very different AF fine tune settings at different subject to camera distances, making its use hugely stressful. With my D810 these problems are absent, and I'm all excited again with regards to using the lens which is one of my all time favorites.
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One of the (many) daily worries of a studio portrait photographer is skin tone, more specifically how different lenses (and RAW converters) mess up with your subjects/clients skin tones. The 105/2D AF DC as well as the 135/2D AF DC belong to that list of lenses which give you less gray hair than most lenses, simpy because the 105/2D DC paints v e r y natural skin tones.
The DC function (introducing spherical aberrations) is hard to learn and harder to use properly, and the screw-driven AF will produce more duds than an AF-S lens will. Put those aside, those two DC lenses are true gems and given the aftermarket price (105/2D DC goes for about 600-700 EUR, whereas 135/2D DC is about 700-800 EUR) it is hard for any studio photographer using Nikon DSLR to really neglect them. Yes, the 85/1.4G is outstanding, but it is a very different focal length and perspective than the 105 or 135.
The 105/2D DC is almost always in my wedding bag, where it sees use during dinner speeches and portrait sessions. The only lens that could take its place in my bag would be an AF-S 105/1.8 G/E Nikkor, but so far the news on any updates of this lens have not materialized. Some argue that the 105/2.8G AF-S VR Micro-Nikkor is sharper (true), but it is one f-stop slower and more importantly - in this World there exists no bride who likes to see the skin detail the Micro-Nikkor is capable of resolving (which effectively renders it unusable for wedding documentaries bar close-ups of the rings). The 105/1.8 Ai-S is clearly inferior in detail, skin tones (too cold) and overall character when shot wide open and compared to the 105/2D DC.
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Bjørn, was generous enough to allow me to shoot his 105/2 DC during our Photokina trip in 2014.
It is a great lens without a doubt!
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Jakov gets this dreaming look in his eyes whenever he fondles the 105 DC ... (on our way to Photokina 2014, Df with 24/2 Nikkor)
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I caught a glimpse of Bjørn too :D
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As stated a favourite of mine maybe i should get the 135/2dc as well, words say it is less sharp and more prone to CA, just have the ai version which is different optically.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2917/14689204061_357bbd66b5_o.jpg)
an example of the 135/2 ai wide open on a D800:
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7349/12070654243_6f45499c74_o.jpg)
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Elsa Hoffmann swears by the 135 mm f/2 Nikkor DC for studio work. I tried out her lens and it produced sweet images on the Df, perhaps with a little less 'bite' than the 105 DC.
The 135/2 Nikkor (AI, AIS) is a quite different beast and should not be confused with the DC model.
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135/2D DC is definitely less sharp than the 105/2D DC, especially wide open. But, I don't find the resolving power an issue because when you use a 135mm lens in a studio you are composing tight portraits, and too much skin detail can be an issue when the model is your client. When you send images off to a retoucher then you want maximum detail and depth of field...
They are both excellent lenses, with natural skin tones and delicate detail just perfect for portraits. I can't praise them too much for studio work, color & bw.
Wide open 105/2D DC in a studio leaves little to desire in detail, but the 135/2D DC wide open may sometimes be too soft unless you look for a soft look. Stopped down, the 105/2D DC matches detail at f/2.8 that the 135/2D DC does at f/4, from f/4 forward it's really hard to tell which one is better. Both lenses from f/5.6 to f/11 they both draw more detail than a D810 sensor can resolve. Future-proof lenses when it comes to resolving power, that is.
This is however nitpicking - both DC Nikkors are fabulous studio lenses. Will post later examples of what I've captured with them in a studio environment.
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although I find my lens sharp - I really wouldn't want it any sharper for my studio work. Especially on women. (more so on older woman)
This lens always gives me the results I want.
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To clarify, you use the 135 DC isn't that so, Elsa? At least you did when I visited you last September.
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That is correct Bjørn.
I just wish my studio was 1 m longer - or 2 or 3...
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I've yet to handle a DC, the thought of controlling the bokeh's appearance sounds like a lot of fun. Though, I am not into portraiture and prefer straight blades. Still would love to toy around with one though!
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To clarify, you use the 135 DC isn't that so, Elsa? At least you did when I visited you last September.
That is correct Bjørn.
I just wish my studio was 1 m longer - or 2 or 3...
Well i remember Elsa mentioning she was using different glass in her studio :o
i suspect a 70-200 ;D
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Lovely images Elsa!
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I just wish my studio was 1 m longer - or 2 or 3...
I know a lot of men with the same wish.... ::)
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Lovely images Elsa!
I know a lot of men with the same wish.... ::)
Metres?? Erik - :o :o :o
now I have learned something new ;D
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In film days I shot a lot of portraits with135mm and even with 300mm at times....
Then I had to learn the 85mm is much more practical for real world room size...
Now I use tge 85 also outside an do cotextual portaits at 50 .... 35 .... even 24 ....
Those current HiRes Bodies allow for all details needed in the big picture ...
105DC. Certainly a sweet piece of glass too.
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I'm new here, but thought I'd add to the discussion of the DC lenses. This is the 135mm f/2 DC.
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Mind the Watch Dog
With the 105 DC
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Metres?? Erik - :o :o :o
now I have learned something new ;D
Is that what they call "Extreme Makeover"? :o
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Someone out there might be interested to learn the 105 DC does IR pretty well. (In fact, so does the 105/2.5 and 105/1.8 Nikkors).
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If you are into 'bokeh', the 105 DC might be the solution ...
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Another example of the "über bokeh" of the 105 DC. The Df is a willing assistant to bring out the delicate hues.
Scented Mayweed on a road verge
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The mayweed is a beautiful image Bjørn!
I see myself buying this lens in the future :)
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This thread was the reason I got a 105 2DC.
When it hits, it is superb with a lovely 3d effect and presence.
My issue (on my second copy now) is that it is my most unpredictable lens to get focus right.
Is there a proposed best way to af tune this lens (e.g. flat target vs 3rd object)?
Makes sense to try fine tuning at different R/F settings or just stick to 0? I know that changing R/F needs refocusing on the field.
I have tried a version of lens align and also FOCAL on 810 and auto af tune on 500 and 850.
Either Iam the worst finetunist there is or there is something else in play (i.e. distance variance...)
Thanks to anyone for any thoughts.
Here's one with the Fuji S3 Pro...
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This thread was the reason I got a 105 2DC.
When it hits, it is superb with a lovely 3d effect and presence.
My issue (on my second copy now) is that it is my most unpredictable lens to get focus right.
Is there a proposed best way to af tune this lens (e.g. flat target vs 3rd object)?
Makes sense to try fine tuning at different R/F settings or just stick to 0? I know that changing R/F needs refocusing on the field.
I have tried a version of lens align and also FOCAL on 810 and auto af tune on 500 and 850.
Either Iam the worst finetunist there is or there is something else in play (i.e. distance variance...)
Thanks to anyone for any thoughts.
Here's one with the Fuji S3 Pro...
I've only had my used copy of a 105mm DC f/2 for about a week but the shots of guinea pigs and people I've made did look great (when in focus). As it was difficult to get good results it prompted me to buy Reikan FoCal Pro (I have other prime AF/D lenses). I'd read that autofocus with this lens is rather hit and miss and you can get a high proportion of dud images.
Yesterday, I calibrated the lens to my D750: I set the DC ring to 0. D750 on a tripod 4m away from the printed target taped to a wall. The "+/- Calibration" test showed I needed -12 AF fine-tune. It also showed a higher than average range of astigmatism and more than typical variability in autofocus (compared to other users' results). But both of those are still 'acceptable'. Made me worry nonetheless that my copy is a poor one.
I haven't had a chance to take 'real' shots with the new setting but am hoping for the best. Others have said the real 0 position for the DC ring isn't always 0; it could be -1 or +1, for example. So your idea of testing with it in different positions makes sense and something I will probably do at some point.
With it being a rather pricey lens and so much positive talk around it, it hasn't yet matched my expectations. However, what has put my mind at ease was reading a professional photographer's take on this lens - that it's a tricky beast to deal with and it ISN'T as sharp as other lenses. It will always be soft toward the wide end and it's sharpest around f/8 (my FoCal tests also showed this). You also have to take into account that as a portrait lens, that's a good thing because it softens the details most people don't want to see in an image of themselves.
So if you haven't already, continue your tuning with the flat FoCal target and see what happens. Good luck!
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It depends also on the camera body. I mostly have good experiences with the 105 DC and love the results very much. But with my old D800 it was a disaster, trying to get it to focus correctly at long distances it required fine tune -20 and at close distances a setting of 0. So it was basically impossible to use on that body
if I expected to photograph subjects at varying distances with AF. I then got D810 which resolved the problem and a single fine tune setting was good for the whole focus range. I mostly use it now in studio lighting as a lighter alternative to the 70-200/2.8 and haven't done wide-aperture photography with it for a while. You could take your camera and lens to Nikon service and ask if they can improve the focusing.
Stopped down, the 105 DC is very sharp. It is mostly soft and low contrast at f/2. I love it as it produces beautiful, detailed rendering of hair and clothes but does not amplify skin blemishes, it sort of dims out the blood vessels within the skin whereas the typical modern lens produces a lot of sharp and contrasty imperfections in skin. I find the 105 DC effortless in this sense, but you just have to figure out how to get correct focus with it. :) A bit of a challenge.
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Thank you both Ilkka and Osmosis for the responses.
A friend who is professional product photographer has promised to help me finetune it.
He loves his and considers it to be one of the sharpest lenses he has at f2 if focused properly.
Once I have some luck I will revert with feedback.
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I don’t think I’d ever count on the DC lenses to autofocus well. Especially as more DC is dialed in. For me, manual focus is the preferred method.
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You also have to take into account that as a portrait lens, that's a good thing because it softens the details most people don't want to see in an image of themselves.
If you wish to enhance the sharpness of eye and hair and smooth out the skin there are various methods of achieving this using +/- Sharpening, Mid sharpening and Clarity with Nikon software. Here is a link...
Sharpening and Softening Images (NPS Global) (https://nps.nikonimaging.com/technical_solutions/z7_z6_tips/sharpening_and_softening/)
...other software must have similar features or controls for tuning the sharpening while doing RAW development. If the reader's camera is older, set "Latest picture control" as your default in the preferences of Capture NX-D and NX Studio or some features may be grayed or missing in the Picture Control pallet.
One might combine positive sharpening with negative mid sharpening to achieve the look desired.
Dave
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I don’t think I’d ever count on the DC lenses to autofocus well. Especially as more DC is dialed in. For me, manual focus is the preferred method.
That's certainly borne out of my own limited findings. In low'ish light indoors, the hit rate for an in-focus shot is pretty low. 1 in 8 or 10 shots perhaps? When the light is pretty good the rate goes up quite a bit. But as you imply, the AF is pretty unreliable in these lenses. The nice and sharp shots I have had looked great so I personally feel it's worth persisting with the lens. Someone mentioned that you shouldn't dismiss this lens until at least 1,000 shots, because it's such a tricky beast to get the hang of.
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If you wish to enhance the sharpness of eye and hair and smooth out the skin there are various methods of achieving this using +/- Sharpening, Mid sharpening and Clarity with Nikon software. Here is a link...
Sharpening and Softening Images (NPS Global) (https://nps.nikonimaging.com/technical_solutions/z7_z6_tips/sharpening_and_softening/)
...other software must have similar features or controls for tuning the sharpening while doing RAW development. If the reader's camera is older, set "Latest picture control" as your default in the preferences of Capture NX-D and NX Studio or some features may be grayed or missing in the Picture Control pallet.
One might combine positive sharpening with negative mid sharpening to achieve the look desired.
Dave
Thanks for the info, David. Though I use Lightroom instead, your comments have prompted me to spend more time with the sharpening/denoise filters in LR.
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That's certainly borne out of my own limited findings. In low'ish light indoors, the hit rate for an in-focus shot is pretty low. 1 in 8 or 10 shots perhaps? When the light is pretty good the rate goes up quite a bit. But as you imply, the AF is pretty unreliable in these lenses. The nice and sharp shots I have had looked great so I personally feel it's worth persisting with the lens. Someone mentioned that you shouldn't dismiss this lens until at least 1,000 shots, because it's such a tricky beast to get the hang of.
I can't speak about the 105mm but the 135 certainly does reward practice. I can't imagine being happy/proficient with this lens back in the days of film.
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That's certainly borne out of my own limited findings. In low'ish light indoors, the hit rate for an in-focus shot is pretty low. 1 in 8 or 10 shots perhaps? When the light is pretty good the rate goes up quite a bit. But as you imply, the AF is pretty unreliable in these lenses. The nice and sharp shots I have had looked great so I personally feel it's worth persisting with the lens. Someone mentioned that you shouldn't dismiss this lens until at least 1,000 shots, because it's such a tricky beast to get the hang of.
I haven't noticed such problems with my DC Nikkors and recent camera bodies. When using the 105 DC with studio flash lighting, I get about 90% in focus to the requirements of head and shoulder portraits, for available light I would still consider most shots acceptable though they're not the same kind of sharp as one can get with the 105/1.4.
I've always loved the 105 DC and the 135 DC is somewhat less sharp, but somehow of the shots I've printed and framed on my walls, the 135 DC has taken the lead position, there is a feeling in those images that I really like even though sharpness is not what I'd consider among it's merits.
I will try to perform some experiments on both DC Nikkors and compare them to a reference lens, such as the 70-200/2.8 FL, to get an idea of what kind of autofocus precision and accuracy can be expected in different conditions. I recently acquired Reikan FoCal software which can be used to give some data on the focusing as well.
I think these lenses can be challenging to use, but 1 in 10 shots sharp doesn't sound right and I suspect camera body or calibration to be influencing the outcome. Of course, it also depends on the definition of what is considered "in focus" as some applications and users are more demanding than others!
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I haven't noticed such problems with my DC Nikkors and recent camera bodies. When using the 105 DC with studio flash lighting, I get about 90% in focus to the requirements of head and shoulder portraits, for available light I would still consider most shots acceptable though they're not the same kind of sharp as one can get with the 105/1.4.
I've always loved the 105 DC and the 135 DC is somewhat less sharp, but somehow of the shots I've printed and framed on my walls, the 135 DC has taken the lead position, there is a feeling in those images that I really like even though sharpness is not what I'd consider among it's merits.
I will try to perform some experiments on both DC Nikkors and compare them to a reference lens, such as the 70-200/2.8 FL, to get an idea of what kind of autofocus precision and accuracy can be expected in different conditions. I recently acquired Reikan FoCal software which can be used to give some data on the focusing as well.
I think these lenses can be challenging to use, but 1 in 10 shots sharp doesn't sound right and I suspect camera body or calibration to be influencing the outcome. Of course, it also depends on the definition of what is considered "in focus" as some applications and users are more demanding than others!
I've just run a few tests shots with my son and have discovered that the keeper rate goes up the more the DC setting moves to F.
From 0 toward the R, the eye area blurs again and is too soft. From F2 up to F5.6, the eye gets sharper and sharper. I appreciate it's not a formal test but it is showing that this lens is indeed sharp but having to move the DC control so far away from the actual aperture does pose more questions than answers.
(http://)
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I've just run a few tests shots with my son and have discovered that the keeper rate goes up the more the DC setting moves to F.
From 0 toward the R, the eye area blurs again and is too soft. From F2 up to F5.6, the eye gets sharper and sharper.
did you re focus each time the DC setting was changed?
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To reliable focus any lens on a DSLR you need to fully understand how the focus system is working, it doesn't know it's focusing on an eye, the iris the eyelashes or the reflected image of the eyeball suface.
Also the sensor has an size so cross-talk is often an issue and what AF mode AF-S or AF-C and so on. Is the model still, is the photographer steady.The later and higher model DSLR the better the focus system is.With the later high resolution DSLR you get AF fine tune to play with as well, your compensation of -12 is a very high value and I fear that is messing with you, I would try to return to 0, no compensation and use AF-C.
The new Z bodies are IMHO just a new way of missing critical focus, sometimes.
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did you re focus each time the DC setting was changed?
Yes, I re-focused each time after changing the DC setting.
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To reliable focus any lens on a DSLR you need to fully understand how the focus system is working, it doesn't know it's focusing on an eye, the iris the eyelashes or the reflected image of the eyeball suface.
Also the sensor has an size so cross-talk is often an issue and what AF mode AF-S or AF-C and so on. Is the model still, is the photographer steady.The later and higher model DSLR the better the focus system is.With the later high resolution DSLR you get AF fine tune to play with as well, your compensation of -12 is a very high value and I fear that is messing with you, I would try to return to 0, no compensation and use AF-C.
The new Z bodies are IMHO just a new way of missing critical focus, sometimes.
Hi, Erik. Thanks for your info. The shots of my son are of course a little unreliable as it was handheld and he doesn't exactly sit still. Focus mode was AFC-S, using the central focus point. On my computer I could clearly see a progression from out-of-focus to in-focus as the DC setting moved from Rear to Front.
The -12 AF fine tune result came after three calibration tests with Reikan FoCal – all with the DC setting on 0. However, today I'm going to re-run the calibration test multiple times with AF fine tune at 0, and on each test use a different DC setting to see which gives the sharpest results. I'm suspecting there's something wrong with this lens but luckily I have a few more days left to send it back for a refund.
It's my understanding that whilst the DC setting will bring a softness to the image, it shouldn't be affecting the in-focus plane. I'm not quite sure what it means if a large DC setting makes the image sharper.
Thanks again.
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The DC setting makes the image softer and softer and shifts or smear out the focus plane more and more as you dial in higher settings.
So,,, you have a higher chance of getting something acceptable sharp as you dial in more DC.
I strongly suggest to make a simple setup instead of relying of a live model - Set up good neutral strong light with good contrast for the AF focus system to work reliably on the target(soft light low contrast) (some led light bulbs only emit very limited light spectrum)
Start with: Tripod and a target where you can access the depth of focus as it move back and forth as you dial in the Fine Tune setting, form -20 to +20
First at DC 0 - Then dial in more DC and stop down the lens also.
Good luck!
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The DC setting makes the image softer and softer and shifts or smear out the focus plane more and more as you dial in higher settings.
So,,, you have a higher chance of getting something acceptable sharp as you dial in more DC.
I strongly suggest to make a simple setup instead of relying of a live model - Set up good neutral strong light with good contrast for the AF focus system to work reliably on the target(soft light low contrast) (some led light bulbs only emit very limited light spectrum)
Start with: Tripod and a target where you can access the depth of focus as it move back and forth as you dial in the Fine Tune setting, form -20 to +20
First at DC 0 - Then dial in more DC and stop down the lens also.
Good luck!
I've spoken with the seller, who is a reputable camera/lens retailer. They're taking the lens back to run some tests themselves on their own D750, and if needs be sending it off to the company that serviced the lens back in April.
This is because calibrating the lens again today with FoCal, I found out the following:
DCR2.8 requires AF fine-tune +67
DCR2 requires AF fine-tune +11 (11% improvement)
DC0 requires AF fine-tune -8 (5% improvement)
DCF2 requires AF fine-tune -41
DCF2.8 requires AF fine-tune -43
(D750 on tripod, tethered auto-shooting, AF fine-tune at 0 before each calibration, f/2, ISO100, AFS-S, 3m from FoCal target, indoors)
So you can see how massive those fine-tune numbers are, particularly DCF2, which matches the aperture shot and shouldn't be giving such an out-of-focus image. Conversations with the seller and another service centre confirm that the lens should still be producing a crisp enough image of the target no matter the DC setting used.
I'll report back when I've heard from the seller and let you know their findings.
EDIT (28/06/21):
The seller came back to me today, having tested the lens on a D750 with/without tripod/target/live view. He's not seeing anything out of the ordinary for this lens, having owned one previously and remembering its quirks well. We both agree that the DC setting will be throwing FoCal off and an AF fine-tune on Neutral shouldn't affect normal use even when moving the DC setting to match the aperture. I'll be getting it back tomorrow.
Thanks to you all for your guidance. It seems it's one of those lenses that requires a lot of patience and perseverance to get the best results.
EDIT EDIT (30/06/21):
The lens is back with me and after a few test shots, I've determined that this lens works perfectly no matter the DC setting used so long as you use Live View (contrast-detection autofocus). But if you shoot through the viewfinder, phase-detection autofocus struggles unless the DC setting is at 0.
So, as per other DC users' experiences, for best results...shoot manual focus through the viewfinder when the DC setting is to the front or rear (matching the aperture). And only use autofocus through the viewfinder when DC is at 0.
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You can't use AF Fine tune with a DC lens because there is a focus shift when using DC.
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You can't use AF Fine tune with a DC lens because there is a focus shift when using DC.
You may use AF fine tune and get accurate viewfinder AF. However, a different fine tune value is needed depending on the DC ring setting. This is a bit unpractical when changing the DC ring setting between shots.
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I'm currently shooting Nikon Df and Panasonic MFT.
While I do like my Nikkor 105 DC on my DF, I actually like it better on my micro four thirds camera. While the DC on the front of the smallish Panny camera is a bit front heavy, I can put up with it because of the improved rendering (at least to my eyes) on the Panny camera.
The secret to unleashing the 105 DC's ultimate IQ on a MFT body is to use a NIKON G/F TO BMCC .64X "Metabones Speed Booster" between the lens and the camera. The resulting image has a shallower DOF, and I believe the image to be sharper too. I prefer the field of view better too. This "special" Speed Booster will only work on a MFT camera if shooting with the electronic shutter (because the rear element protrudes so deeply into the camera that it interfers with the mechanical shutter). I have tried the "Nikon G/F to MFT Metabones Speed Booster", and prefer the IQ I get with the "Nikon G/F to BMCC" version.