NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Lens Talk => Topic started by: Michael Erlewine on December 02, 2015, 15:37:25
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I have wanted to get into the more sophisticated bellows systems for a while, but never managed it. I have just (finally) found and purchased a copy of the Kenlock (Spiratone, Hama) bellows system that allows tilt, shift, and swing. I wonder if any of you have any recommendations as to what would be the best enlarger lenses to use with such a setup. I keep reading that 135mm is ideal, but which 135mm enlarger lenses would you suggest.
This is a small system, similar to the larger Horseman system. I post a photo of the one I purchases.
Any suggestions?
Also: Where could I find an adapter with M42-Male on one end and Nikon F-Mount on the other?
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I'm familiar with that system - it served as the foundation for my conversion of a 28 PC-Nikkor into a workable tilt/shift lens.
Be aware that the components are under-dimensioned, difficult to lock down, and quite delicate, so don't expect hooking heavy lens/camera up to this contraption.
Any 105 or 135 mm enlarger lens will probably serve well in front and should give infinity focus, though not necessarily with high quality as these lenses never were designed for such conjugates.
M42-F adapter can easily be cobbled together by scavenged parts from various lens mount adapters. You can also purchase a short T2-F adapter that might do the trick.
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M42-F adapter can easily be cobbled together by scavenged parts from various lens mount adapters. You can also purchase a short T2-F adapter that might do the trick.
I'm a dummy at this adapter stuff. As I understand it I need an adapter with M42-male on one end and an F-Mount Nikon female on the other end, so I could plug in Nikon-F-Mount lenses, correct? I can't seem to find any of those anyway. I am sure I am missing something. Would appreciated any guidance on how to accomplish this, please.
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I'm a dummy at this adapter stuff. As I understand it I need an adapter with M42-male on one end and an F-Mount Nikon female on the other end, so I could plug in Nikon-F-Mount lenses, correct? I can't seem to find any of those anyway. I am sure I am missing something. Would appreciated any guidance on how to accomplish this, please.
This is a Nikon F female to M42 male adaptor:
http://www.ebay.ch/itm/Macro-Nikon-F-mount-AI-AF-Lens-to-M42-screw-mount-ADAPTER-Pentax-Zenit-Prakticar-/151881386525?hash=item235cd60a1d:m:mS7laOX8D7AJqGQ4w3NsZ_g (http://www.ebay.ch/itm/Macro-Nikon-F-mount-AI-AF-Lens-to-M42-screw-mount-ADAPTER-Pentax-Zenit-Prakticar-/151881386525?hash=item235cd60a1d:m:mS7laOX8D7AJqGQ4w3NsZ_g)
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It is not a good idea to put an ordinary Nikkor lens on such a bellows unit. Do remember it has the focusing helicoid taking up a lot of space and thus preventing infinity focus. Plus the weight can be a problem as the Hama/Kenlock bellows is flimsy and not able to carry much of a load.
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Thanks Simone and Bjørn:
I have ordered that part. And I will be using enlarger lenses on this bellows, in the studio. I understand I will have to be very careful with the rig.
If I wanted a more robust version of this kind of tilt, shift, swing, etc., what should I be looking for?
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I have this lens on a bellows, a cheap but technically top start to your new adventure
http://www.ebay.de/itm/RODENSTOCK-APO-GEROGON-150-9-LENS-/201468788928?hash=item2ee879c0c0:g:YL8AAOSw3ydVp~Fc (http://www.ebay.de/itm/RODENSTOCK-APO-GEROGON-150-9-LENS-/201468788928?hash=item2ee879c0c0:g:YL8AAOSw3ydVp~Fc)
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If I wanted a more robust version of this kind of tilt, shift, swing, etc., what should I be looking for?
Hoeseman makes a dedicated bellows system for Nikon/Canon DSLRs:
http://www.kenko-pi.co.jp/horseman/e/VCCpro/index.html
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The Horseman VCC Pro is reputed to have some serious design flaws. See reviews on B&H for the device.
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The Horseman VCC Pro is reputed to have some serious design flaws. See reviews on B&H for the device.
I see. Then the candidates would be the LF bodies. There are LF back to F-mount adapters to attach DSLRs to them.
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i have the Horseman LD, with modified bellows.
(http://www.pbase.com/bobfriedman/image/140674703/original.jpg)
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Bob: Thanks for the photo. Does this work well with Nikons like the D810? Is this a stock solution or have you modified it and how?
I assume this is much more robust than the one I just purchased, but have yet to received. Do you use it a lot and what do you most like about it?
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That is a very nice setup the Horseman LD, it looks like you even have a double rail for it -
The Kenlock is nice little rig for a solution for small lenses.
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Bob: Thanks for the photo. Does this work well with Nikons like the D810? Is this a stock solution or have you modified it and how?
I haven't used it for years. That is a D3 so a D810 should be fine.
I purchased most of it on eBay and bought the Nikon F mount with bellows from Horseman.
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i have the Horseman LD, with modified bellows.
(http://www.pbase.com/bobfriedman/image/140674703/original.jpg)
Looks nice. I was wondering if you had any issues with the throat of the camera (lens mount on back to mirror box) blocking part of the image.
A Macro Nikkor 135mm from the Multiphot would be a nice lens to use near maximum extension.
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The mirror box of a DSLR is indeed a severe issue with such setups as peripheral rays are cut off. Even a mirrorless camera acts in the same manner although giving much less blocking of light.
There was never a "135 Macro-Nikkor", the longest of the Macro-Nikkors was the 12 cm f/6.3. However, you might have the first of the Bellows-Nikkors in mind. That was the Bellows-Nikkor 135 mm f/4 Nikkor-Q which originally came in "S" mount, later delivered with the long N-F tube so could be attached to an F-mount bellows, and finally, a sleeved last version in direct "F" mount. Optics remained the same for all versions though. The 135 Bellows was a decent performer for its time, but no match for the 105 mm f/4 Bellows-Nikkor and various Micro-Nikkors that replaced it.
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I don't mean to hijack this fine thread, so let the powers-that-be delete this post if deemed inappropriate.
I have long (years) been considering acquiring a bellows and the PB-4 seems to be the last of the Nikon ones with tilt. No shift though, right? Is it worth its cost (~$300-500) or should one be looking at something of higher quality and price? I mean, is the PB-4 usable or does it have serious flaws/shortcomings?
I don't know why I haven't bought a bellows... perhaps I am unsure of whether I will use one anyway. OTOH I should be able to recoup the purchase price so there's no financial obstacles.
So, PB-4? Buy or not? ;D
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PB-4 is a very decent design and sturdily made bellows. It has shift if you operate it rotated 90 degrees. Tilt works in any orientation.
The lens to use with this bellows is of course the Bellows-Nikkor 105 mm f/4.
Like virtually all bellows it should be considered a tool for indoors use only.
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Michael, well, what I have already told you about this system has been saidf also here. It is rather flimsy and
cannot hold well a heavy lens and especially not a heavy camera like your D810. I woudl rather consider that
an amateurish toy. I have one sitting around here collecting dust. Personally I would not recommend to risk
your camera or any of your precious lenses on it... but it is up to you of course.
What is really nice is the ROLLEI XACT2 - unfortunately ROLLEI filed for chapter 11 and is no longer. But that
system is extremely well made and will last decades. A friend of mine uses it with excellent results for his
jewelry photography business demanding tilt and shift.
(http://www.kktpc.co.jp/tpc_img/200ROLXACT533.jpg)
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you could also look at SINAR... but the Horseman F-Mount adapter is quite nice to have if you find a set of Horseman standards and rail on eBay... i believe you can purchase the F-mount/w bellows from B&H, that's where i got it special order 5+ years ago.
you won't have any worries about how strong the setup is with the Horseman... it is like a tank.
by the way, i have a PK-12a on there just in case but i don't think you need it.
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I will get my feet wet with the Spiratone (Kenlock) bellows system and see how it goes. Then, if I need something stronger, I will look qt the Horseman system. How much do you use yours for swing and tilt?
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What is really nice is the ROLLEI XACT2 - unfortunately ROLLEI filed for chapter 11 and is no longer. But that
system is extremely well made and will last decades. A friend of mine uses it with excellent results for his
jewelry photography business demanding tilt and shift.
(http://www.kktpc.co.jp/tpc_img/200ROLXACT533.jpg)
Klaus, What would I have to do to use the XACT2 with a Nikon body like the D810 and what for the front?
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I will get my feet wet with the Spiratone (Kenlock) bellows system and see how it goes. Then, if I need something stronger, I will look qt the Horseman system. How much do you use yours for swing and tilt?
depends what you are your requirements.. it does work well for macro... allows greater DoF for larger apertures..
you will need lens boards for the lens attachments.. i actually created a few with L39 and M42 mounts.. but the lens shown is a Macro-Symmar without shutter and designed for this type of system.
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also if you noticed it is twice recessed to get closer.
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OK. I am looking at the Rollei XACT2 system. If the Spiratone Bellows is too flimsy, I will sell it and use the Rollei. Any idea where I can get front and back adapters for Nikon on the XACT2?
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check out the SINAR
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On the Rollei XACT 2 bellows, on the front standard, where the lens plugs in, what kind of board/adapter do I need to use it with Nikon or to get to a Nikon adapter, if anyone knows?
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Another question for Bob (or anyone). Will something like the Rollei XACT2 Bellows system (or any of these larger systems) work with Nikkor lenses? Will the image circles be large enough? Any ideas?
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On the Rollei XACT 2 bellows, on the front standard, where the lens plugs in, what kind of board/adapter do I need to use it with Nikon or to get to a Nikon adapter, if anyone knows?
here: http://rolleiflex.us/pages/about-rolleiflex-usa (http://rolleiflex.us/pages/about-rolleiflex-usa) they should have the whole program available. Its the official ROLLEI/ROELLEIFLEX distributor located in SF. They also do service and have spares.
This here is what you need:
(https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t35.0-12/12333290_10208620107006421_1469817878_o.jpg?oh=9a9482e58eb7dd99cc970833873eb8fb&oe=56687406)
Plus a T-mount adapter for Nikon, easy to find (ebay etc.)
The front plate (left) is for a Copal 1 Shutter, which has a M39x0.75 mounting thread, this might need to be machined to something wider like M42x1.0 to allow many lens adapters to fit. Or get a plate each for any of your special lenses and have them mounted directly to such a plate...
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Klaus: Thanks to you, I got that. I have ordered both parts and we shall see how it all works out. On your suggestion, I purchased a Rollei X-Act2 bellows system, in case the Spiratone is too flimsy, as you point out. I will play with the Spiratone Bellows and try it out.
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Another question for Bob (or anyone). Will something like the Rollei XACT2 Bellows system (or any of these larger systems) work with Nikkor lenses? Will the image circles be large enough? Any ideas?
Sorry that I would answer it instead of Bob, but laws of (lens) physics are universal (luckily enough)...
a) Looks up the image circles of your lens in question for infinity (for instance on my macrolenses site...)
b) The image circle at 1:1 is twice that size - assuming you'd like to use it for macro
c) Your FF camera sensor needs about 43mm image diameter to be fully covered
d) Compare them and you'll see how much shift you can safely do (leave a bit safety room)...
Example, the Apo ELO Nikkor 105mm has 80mm image diameter at f5.6 and 100mm at f8 so there should be quite some shift possible.
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Klaus: Thanks to you, I got that. I have ordered both parts and we shall see how it all works out. On your suggestion, I purchased a Rollei X-Act2 bellows system, in case the Spiratone is too flimsy, as you point out. I will play with the Spiratone Bellows and try it out.
Great it worked out Michael!
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Well, I have yet to try all of this.
I understand that enlarge-type lenses do better on a bellows than standard primes. Klaus (or anyone), which of the enlarger type lenses would you recommend? Which are most highly corrected (APO)?
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Well, I have yet to try all of this.
I understand that enlarge-type lenses do better on a bellows than standard primes. Klaus (or anyone), which of the enlarger type lenses would you recommend? Which are most highly corrected (APO)?
Simple answer: the one(s) you already have (Apo EL, Printing Nikkor etc.)! (As those were designed for exactly that...don't get fooled by that "enlarger" moniker, it is the same process just with reversed light path)
APO EL means simply Apochromatic Enlarger Lens and those are the best ever made enlarger lenses :point blank:
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Thanks Klaus! All this time I thought EL meant it came from Spain. LOL.
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Thanks Klaus! All this time I thought EL meant it came from Spain. LOL.
Then it would be ES = Espania (or sometimes just E)
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Any other lens suggestions close-up work on a bellows anyone?
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Consider to also get the wide angle bellows (and possible a recessed lens board), it might be useful to have for the Xact2 edepnding on extension length
(the wide-angle bellows and recessed lens board would allow shorter total extension = physical length between lens and camera sensor)
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Consider to also get the wide angle bellows, it might be useful to have for the Xact2
What are the advantages of the wide bellows?
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I had just added the reason...
and further to that allows to avoid vignetting in some extreme tilt-shift situations which you might encounter
(as I know your way of photographing...)
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I understand. Is there a special name for the Rollei recessed board or wide bellows. I imagine I just look on Ebay, etc. Right?
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I understand. Is there a special name for the Rollei recessed board or wide bellows. I imagine I just look on Ebay, etc. Right?
Nope, ask that ROLLEI distributor in SF. I used the names from that system overview image (see above), they will know.
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Just got some very good tip from Eric Hiss, owner of ROLLEIFLEX US. He told me that NOVOFLEX BalPro parts fits the XACT2, namely the lens boards and camera adapters!!
I'll find out about it...
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Just got some very good tip from Eric Hiss, owner of ROLLEIFLEX US. He told me that NOVOFLEX BalPro parts fits the XACT2, namely the lens boards and camera adapters!!
I'll find out about it...
I talked with Eric yesterday for some time. I believe I have what I need ordered. He pointed out that the kind of close-up work I do, which is not macro, does not require a recessed board and the wide-angle bellows. It would be redundant.
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Good, so you're all set.
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recessed boards and wide angle bellows (bag) are an excellent addition.
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recessed boards and wide angle bellows (bag) are an excellent addition.
That's what I thought, too. But what do I know about macro photography ;-)
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the bag is clearly preferable..
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I have not been able to find the recessed plate. Any ideas where to get one? And where can I get the WA bellows. Any links or ideas?
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I have not been able to find the recessed plate. Any ideas where to get one? And where can I get the WA bellows. Any links or ideas?
i choose the Horseman or SiNAR systems because they have more standard boards.... lots on eBay... the Horseman F-mount comes with the bag bellows.. but i do have to say the Rollei looks quite nice and appears to be very compact.. but there is not much on eBay which is preferred since the prices there can be quite reasonable.. i bought the Horseman for $300.... lens boards etc.. separately..
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I have a line on a set, I believe, but am waiting to hear.
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this one would probably work http://www.ebay.com/itm/Horseman-L-45-4X5-Large-Format-Camera-from-Japan-/321943231484?hash=item4af54fdbfc:g:csgAAOSwAKxWZvDK (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Horseman-L-45-4X5-Large-Format-Camera-from-Japan-/321943231484?hash=item4af54fdbfc:g:csgAAOSwAKxWZvDK) you have to find a model that allows the frame to slip off the standard, they usually have the spirit level on top.. then you can buy the nikon f-mount with bag for around $800.
so would be a lot cheaper than this model ($1000 less) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Horseman-LD-View-Camera-for-Nikon-/191529801267?hash=item2c9810d633:g:vQEAAOSwjVVV3e93 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Horseman-LD-View-Camera-for-Nikon-/191529801267?hash=item2c9810d633:g:vQEAAOSwjVVV3e93)
you can also try http://www.ebay.com/itm/Horseman-LD-View-Camera-for-Nikon-/191529801267?hash=item2c9810d633:g:vQEAAOSwjVVV3e93 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Horseman-LD-View-Camera-for-Nikon-/191529801267?hash=item2c9810d633:g:vQEAAOSwjVVV3e93) which is even cheaper but not as good.. i had some vignetting but this will fit a SINAR P2 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sinar-P2-4x5-Large-Format-View-Film-Camera-/221962266100?hash=item33adfb65f4:g:y3QAAOSwfZ1WZZkD (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sinar-P2-4x5-Large-Format-View-Film-Camera-/221962266100?hash=item33adfb65f4:g:y3QAAOSwfZ1WZZkD)
by the way, i am only showing these eBay items as examples... i have no knowledge of the sellers or the items themselves
if you get the Rollei working may be better for your purposes.. the Horseman is BIG and HEAVY
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Well, I have committed to the Rollei X-Act2 Bellows System at the suggestion of Klaus Schmitt, who has helped me with my lens concerns for years, in particular in the realm of the industrial lenses. I also have that Kenlock (Spiratone) Bellows Systems en route, and the seller tells me the Nikon D810 works just fine on that system. So, I hope I have one system to use and one system to sell, and that I don't fall in love with and keep both of them That would be so like me.
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as i said... the Rollei looks quite nice.
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If it turns out true that the Novolflex BALPRO add ons (camera + lens adapters) seemlessly fit the ROLLEI XACT2 TS bellows system,
then all would been solved, see here: https://www.novoflex.com/en/products/macro-accessories/bellows-systems/adapters-for-castbal-ts/ (https://www.novoflex.com/en/products/macro-accessories/bellows-systems/adapters-for-castbal-ts/)
I have no doubts about ROLLEIFLEX' Eric Hiss words, just need confirmation from Novoflex.
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Talked to NOVOFLEX today and they confirmed that most of their BALPRO adapter plates indeed fit the Rollei XACT2.
No wonder actually, as Novoflex and Rollei coperated on making the XACT2 - they manufactured parts for Rollei.
The will try some out and let me know which does do not fit....
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NOVOFLEX today have tested out and confirmed, that ALL THEIR LENS AND CAMERA ADAPTERS
for the BALPRO system also fit the Rollei XACT2!
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Klaus helped me with my lens, too :) I thank you for it every day. I use Apo El Nikkor 105/5,6, Rollei X-act 2, Pentax camera and 45 degree optical viewfinder x 1,3. This industrial lens is the best solution for T/S in studio. Nikkor AM ED 120/5,6 has the same construction but .... I prefer AEL.
It is rrb946 - ebey's user Nikon set with recessed bellows. I made compendium from standard bellows. You need to order from turner a ring m39 with 1-2 mm collar to mount your lens in the middle of recessed bellows.
(http://www.fotobi.pl/images/rxs.jpg)
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What is the advantage of the recessed bellows over the bag bellows. And where does one get a recessed bellows for the X-ACT2, which is what I have?
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That 45° viewfinder caught my eye, it would be very nice for night sky photography. What is the make and model no? A quick search did not come up with anything other than some very expensive devices for underwater housings...
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That 45° viewfinder caught my eye, it would be very nice for night sky photography. What is the make and model no? A quick search did not come up with anything other than some very expensive devices for underwater housings...
It is custom made for Kamosor!
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Michael, wide angle lens plate for X-Act2 with rear curtain bellows is very compact (folded ca. 1,5 cm, front plate is recessed 3 cm). Number of this part is 99101. I can use the AEL not only in the studio with this solution.
This set was recommended in Rollei's brochures for lenses without electronic shutter. Your set is great and bag bellows is ok, but I think it can generate more dust on the sensor.
You can ask Eric Hiss from rolleiflex.us about this recessed bellows. He has 2 lenses with this version. Maybe he'll sell separately this part.
UPDATED: To hold lens m39 in the middle in recessed bellows you need retaining ring with colar and screw 1/26" - Leica.
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It is custom made for Kamosor!
Thanks, that explains the very precise and solid looking design; it looked a bit too nice to be a mass produced product.
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Øivind Tøien, 45 degree anglefinder Ir-qa made by Ireneusz Błaszczuk is the best optic tool in my studio. I have updated model - I can see whole cameras viewinder incereased by 130 %! More info: http://www.wrotniak.net/photo/43/irqa.html .
This anglefinder is very useful for studio (it can rotate 360 degree), portrait and video. Ireneusz made 45 degree anglefinders for different cameras Nikon, Canon, Olympus and only 1 for Pentax :) Several copies ordered National Geographic photographers, too.
It will be necessary to perform the execution:
- aluminum 360 degree adapter - I can add photos and drawings adapter if you want,
- 32 mm lens Mikar of Lomo LCA,
- 45 degrees 1.25 " astropart with a simple eyepiece 1.25 ", but I do not
know astro components,
- cut the PCB to the fixing in place of the eyepiece camera - this is
important because, as the camera falls it breaks the first plate – I tasted
it,
- some tests, because I do not know your camera's viewfinder .