NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: Erik Lund on October 20, 2015, 13:27:23
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So today will be announced an new
Leica SL: the new concept Full Frame
The 24-megapixel sensor, with no anti-aliasing filter, is a full-frame CMOS. The electronic viewfinder LCD has a resolution of 4 million points and is at the top of the EVF for definition and sharpness, as well as for the 60 fps refresh.
The rear screen is not adjustable, but is Touch; It is surrounded by buttons anonymous-style S for tidy interface. Body and lenses are tropicalized.
The SL will handle auto focus with contrast detection on a grid of 49 points in the viewfinder optimally arranged to cover not only the core area, but also off-center subjects.
Together with Leica camera body presented three optical, stabilized and equipped with bayonet T, hence the compatibility with the objectives for the smaller size, and its crop frame.
Also adapters can be mounted almost all Leica optical system.
Zoom 24-90mm f / 2.8-4
Zoom 90-280mm f / 2.8-4
fixed focal length 50mm f / 1.4.
The price of the Leica SL is € 6900, nothing is cheap in Leicaland ;)
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Aha. The Sony in a deluxe 'Leica' version?
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Aha. The Sony in a deluxe 'Leica' version?
My thought as well. It will be interesting to see how the two systems compare image-wise, although it will remain a rethorical exercise for me...
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I still don't understand why the camera bodies are becoming smaller and the lenses bigger?
What's the point in breaking your fingers to grip the tiny body if you are going to mount kilograms of glass onto it?
In fact, I have the same issue with the Df when mounting lenses 0.8kg or heavier...
(but that's just me being picky, don't take it the wrong way) :)
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Regardless of the price its good news that a second player is now entering the full frame & autofocus mirrorless arena.
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I still don't understand why the camera bodies are becoming smaller and the lenses bigger?
Easy, the camera technology is moving forwards quicker than the ability to make small lenses that can match the required IQ for a marketable price.
Look at the latest 35/1.4 lenses, my Zeiss FE, the Sigma and latest the Canon iteration are huge but excellent performers on the latest high resolution sensors.
Leica has a small 35/1.4 for the M mount but that comes at a price most of us are not willing to pay.
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This is indeed a Sony A7 look alike
I hope the menus are as simple as on the Leica M
I might get this one if the wide M lenses works well
The Leica M lenses are tiny even compared to Ais mf Nikkors you know
The Leica T fixed focal length lenses are also tiny.
Fast zooms are large I agree!
Ps just got my 300mm PF it will replace the 300 2.8 AFS
So far extremely impressed...
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I still don't understand why the camera bodies are becoming smaller and the lenses bigger?
The larger sensor and denser pixels require high performance from the lenses, and the designing of small lenses imposes a lot of compromise in terms of the optical quality. That's why the newer lenses of higher performances tend to be large. I wonder if it is the law of physics?
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I don't mind the lenses being large and of good quality; I mind the bodies being so small that you can hardly hold the combo comfortably ;)
On the other hand if you take a look at the new Nikon f/1.8 line of lenses that are all of excellent quality and light you begin to wonder; is it really true that the laws of physics and lack of technology apply.
Is the difference between f/1.8 and f/1.4 so great that you are prepared to carry an additional 400 grams and pay an additional 1000$?
Just being the devil's advocate here... :D
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Erik, aren't you sorry to part with your 300/2.8 AFS?
Have you sold it already?
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I got more for the used 2.8 than the new 4.0 PF... Food for thought ::) ;)
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Regrettably it seems to be another mirrorless system with focus by wire lenses. MF focussing will never be as smooth as with physically coupled lenses...
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Regarding 1.8 vs 1.4 ;The Nikkor 1.4 line has better Nano coatings for starters but also less distortions so there are many aspects not just size and weight
Again; these are tools so choose what you need for the job... Heligon or Ais P45mm...
Only drawback or feature of Leica M are price an to some extent MF
I agree that you should have a decent grip on the body!!!
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Does it come in Ostrich leather version or at least Hermes or Yohji Yamamoto.....otherwise I will pass ::)
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....
fixed focus 50mm f / 1.4.
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fixed focus 50 f1.4 ... now that is not very versatile :P
or someone was saving words on the description ... :)
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Lost in translation? They probably meant fixed focal length.
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I just need high ISO sometimes. Not really there on my current cameras that is why I'm looking ;)
But with prices on used D3S dropping to about 1000 € that could well be it...
Let's see ... ;)
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I don't mind the lenses being large and of good quality; I mind the bodies being so small that you can hardly hold the combo comfortably ;)
On the other hand if you take a look at the new Nikon f/1.8 line of lenses that are all of excellent quality and light you begin to wonder; is it really true that the laws of physics and lack of technology apply.
Is the difference between f/1.8 and f/1.4 so great that you are prepared to carry an additional 400 grams and pay an additional 1000$?
Just being the devil's advocate here... :D
I would agree that small body/big lens combo is not well-balanced.
As for the newer lenses, Nikon is trying to reduce the weight by incorporating engineering plastic, magnesium, carbon fiber or any material that are light. But the "size" of the lenses are, on the contrary, bigger and bigger. Just compare Ais 24/2.0 and Ais 35/1.4 with the current AF-S 24/1.8 and AF-S 35/1.4 respectively.
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Eric, I'm assuming M-mount lenses will be adaptable to this new SL, yes??
I'm still holding a lovely 50mm Summicron from my brief stint with the M8 (long gone). It seems somewhat sacrilegeous to use the 'Cron on my GH1. "-)
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Yes Will work with M lenses on adapter
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The 50 millimeter looks like a huge chunk of glass.
I second the people critizising small bodies vs. huge lenses.
I do not like this.
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One of the (many) appeals of the Nikon Df is the combination of a manageable small camera and smaller old lenses. Very enticing.
Of course, if the performance of this new Leica is sublime, I bet there are enough people with infinite depth to their pockets to make it sell well.
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The SL appears to be bigger than the a7 series, the grip seems to be a lot bigger.
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Yes, the body, as well as the lenses, seems to be quite big...
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/7448206943/a-lot-to-leica-hands-on-with-the-leica-sl-typ-601
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Here are some real-world and studio samples:
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/5300274665/leica-sl-studio-and-real-world-sample-gallery
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RE: The 'large' lenses for a 'small' camera.
Take the focus motor out and many(most?) of them could be smaller.
This new Leica excites me only in that it makes it more credible that Nikon might issue an EVF camera soon. EVFs are really good for low light shooting.
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Size wise the SL is more like a mirrorless R8 DSLR than a Sony a7 competitor and probably positioned somewhere between the M and the S models.
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Thanks JA. Looks like its the same size as a Nikon Df, just slimmer it's getting better and better.
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Jono is a seasoned pro, really nice guy and he has been shooting this nice little thing and written a few words about it ;)
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-news/2015/10/leica-sl-test-jono/?utm_source=luf151020&utm_medium=E-Mail
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There are pictures on www.leicarumors.com directly comparing the SL with various other Leicas, a Fujifilm X-T1 and the Nikon Df. Weight-wise the SL is heavier than a Df (847g vs 765g including battery).
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Aha! The SL has built-in GPS !!
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Here it is with the grip
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There are pictures on www.leicarumors.com directly comparing the SL with various other Leicas, a Fujifilm X-T1 and the Nikon Df. Weight-wise the SL is heavier than a Df (847g vs 765g including battery).
Nice comparison of the size. I would say the weight is way is very similar ;)
Note that the Leica M has the big bottom GPS grip on it.
To me it looks like the SL has a very nice grip even for large hands, especially with the extra grip...
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There are sample shots (jpg and dng) at www.preview.com; the huge 24-90 lens seems nicely sharp over the full frame on scenics and the noise at very high iso's is of the very nice "film-like" kind.
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Review by Jay Cassario
http://www.jaycassario.com/blog/2015/10/18/the-leica-sl-first-impressions-sample-images
Here is the size; With a Leica M 50mm 1.4 Asph on the SL
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Well the f/1.4 35mm, 58mm and 85mm have no play in the manual focus ring, and I find those rings easier to use. I suspect the f/1.4 24/35/58/85 are built to withstand rough use which they f/1.8's may not be quite as durable. My 24/1.4 and 20/1.8 unfortunately have this slight play in manual focusing (when reversing the direction of turn there is a "gap" during which the focus is not being adjusted even when the ring moves). I find there is a special "look" to the images from the nano-coated f/1.4 AF-S Nikkors, whether it is worth the price is anyone's personal decision but I do like the consistency and look, very well suited to the use of shallow depth of field in documentary photos and portraits. I guess they also fit into landscape photography for a shallow depth of field effect (not that you can't stop them down of course you can).
I suspect the main differences between the f/1.4 and f/1.8 Nikon lines is that the former is expected to interest a smaller group of customers with special needs, and the highest expectation of durability and a distinct look (well, it is arguable, but ...) to the images, whereas the f/1.8's are expected to appeal to the more price concious buyer who wants high quality images, chooses primes for portability, smaller size (than f/2.8 zooms) and is interested in best value. I personally find the 20/1.8 very sharp and high quality but something about the 24/1.4 makes the images look more "delightful" for lack of a better word. It is as if it wasn't quite meant to render reality in 2D but transform it into something slightly different. I think the higher price of the f/1.4's mostly reflects hand made elements and a small volume of lenses manufactured leading to higher research and development cost per lens. Also it may be partly due to cost of workers in Japan / China / Thailand. Of course the size of elements is greater also for the larger aperture variants.
Leica is a bit too expensive for my budget, and I like Nikon lenses and the image quality and viewfinders. I do appreciate each brand has their advantages and disadvantages. EVFs, however, are not for me, and if if I were somehow to buy a Leica it would be a rangefinder.
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Spot on regarding to the 1.4 - 1.8 series Ilkka.
The Leica SL specifications looks like something that could have come from Canon or Nikon, it is a full size DSL version of a DSLR type camera - not a Sony or Fuji thing.
I really think this is a bold and serious product from Leica will be interesting to see the next version of their Leica M cameras!
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It seems there is more under the hood than what meets the eye:
1- 3 color modes Adobe RGB -- sRGB -- ECI-RGB
2- In camera, Focus Limit Macro ie Focus Range Limitation (Micheal.E will like this)
3- In camera, Optical Image Stabilization !!!!!!!!!
4- Visual Focus Depth display (numeral) in Manual Focus mode (depth of Field)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/Duke_1/LeicaSL-Focus_zpsrkpenzjj.jpg)
5- Sony: Eat your heart out 8)
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Wow, it's heavier than my D750.
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Here it is with the grip
Awesome looking grip, makes it fit for giant hands ;)
Most camera manufacturers seem to prioritise adding a second battery in their grip design over good ergonomics. I remember the D700 and D300 with the grip mounted becoming taller than the D3 series while I only wanted a little more grip when holding camera with longer lenses in the normal shooting position.
The Leica grip seems high quality and flat in design, so me like :)
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3- In camera, Optical Image Stabilization !!!!!!!!!
From dpreview: Unlike the Q, and Sony's a7 II-series, there's no onboard image stabilization, so it's up to the lens to provide it. The 24-90mm lens has IS built-in, though unusually, it lacks a physical switch on the barrel. Instead, stabilization is turned on and off from within the camera's menu.
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... and the designing of small lenses imposes a lot of compromise in terms of the optical quality. That's why the newer lenses of higher performances tend to be large. I wonder if it is the law of physics?
Any time you put a constraint on a lens (barrel size, resolution, distortion, field curvature, control of CA and coma, vignetting, resistance to flare and ghosting, fast aperture, image format, AF, VR, zooming, SLR/Mirrorless, price ...) it imposes a compromise on the optical quality or the lens as a whole. For example you could design a lens to be more compact but it may come at the cost of higher vignetting or distortions. These could be corrected by using aspherics, which pushes up the price. Or you could allow the lens to be bigger with the same optical quality at a lower price etc. The new Otis 28 is a good example. The constraints here are 28mm lens for SLR cameras with fast aperture highly corrected for optical properties - sharpness, CA etc - at the expense of everything else. The result is a huge lens - even without AF or VR. You could make the lens smaller by accepting lesser optical quality such as the Nikon AFD 28/1.4. And you could make it smaller for a mirrorless design like the new Leica 28/1.4, and it could be even smaller if it were for DX format etc etc.
Still, I am somewhat dismayed by the trend for lenses to become increasingly bigger - the AFS 85/1.8 is as big as the AIS 85/1.4 (even though it's only half the weight), and much bigger than the old manual focus 85/1.8. That's one of the main reasons I'm still using my AI and AIS lenses. It would be nice if those old designs (especially the wides) were updated with improved coatings, ED glass and aspherics to bring the optical quality up with the same size and handling as before. Zeiss started along this line with the original ZF series but they have increasingly been moving towards bigger more exotic designs.
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I just need high ISO sometimes. Not really there on my current cameras that is why I'm looking ;)
But with prices on used D3S dropping to about 1000 € that could well be it...
Let's see ... ;)
Is it better than the Df as I see similar prices for Df and D3S on the marketplace?
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Lots of size comparisons with the Sony a7RII:
http://www.photographyblog.com/news/leica_sl_vs_sony_a7r_ii_side_by_side_comparison/ (http://www.photographyblog.com/news/leica_sl_vs_sony_a7r_ii_side_by_side_comparison/)
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Df doesn't do well with Leica M lenses... :P ;)
Roland, you know you need to turn to Leica land to get small lenses that are perfectly corrected, you should go get the Leica M 50mm f/2 summicron Apo ;D
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Roland, you know you need to turn to Leica land to get small lenses that are perfectly corrected, you should go get the Leica M 50mm f/2 summicron Apo ;D
Don't temp me - can't afford it! Besides, I prefer TTL optical viewfinder and lenses which focus closer, which the Leica M doesn't do very well.
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That is why you need the SL for your M lenses ;) Just kidding
It will be interesting to try out the EVF of the SL...
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As someone who doesn't closely follow the current technological trends and advancements of camera bodies until I am in the market to upgrade, I was hoping someone could clear up a question for me.
I've never owned or used a mirrorless camera but I was under the impression one of the most beneficial aspects of mirrorless was that they are smaller and less intrusive than DSLR's, perhaps that is not the case?
This new Leica, and particularly its lenses, seem to be heading back towards the size of DSLR's, so what is the benefit(s) of it being mirrorless as opposed to a SLR design?
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As someone who doesn't closely follow the current technological trends and advancements of camera bodies until I am in the market to upgrade, I was hoping someone could clear up a question for me.
I've never owned or used a mirrorless camera but I was under the impression one of the most beneficial aspects of mirrorless was that they are smaller and less intrusive than DSLR's, perhaps that is not the case?
This new Leica, and particularly its lenses, seem to be heading back towards the size of DSLR's, so what is the benefit(s) of it being mirrorless as opposed to a SLR design?
Based on the Fujifilm mirrorless that I have, I can tell you that when the light gets low, like an day interior on a dark day...or really low....like 2 footcandles...such as on the street at night....the EVF is superior.
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Charlie, I've been shooting an Olympus EM1 (with grip) since it was released . The size difference between the higher end mirrorless and my D750 is getting more and more negligible. I've purchased a Sony a7II (with grip), my hands are too big to shoot for extended periods with out the grip ;) .
The EVFs are getting better and better but I just cannot get the action shooting down with the EVF. What I really like is the fact that I can see all of the adjustments I make , in the EVF before I shoot. I am really interested in how my Nikon/Voigt/Leica lenses work, using MF, on the Sony and its' IBIS and EVF. I fully expect that the Sony FF cameras will keep getting larger.
That said, the EM1 w/o grip, with the 17 1.8/9-18mm mounted, is a small package for walk about. When Nikon responds with a FF mirrorless (which has to happen :)it will be interesting to see what size and shape.
Cheers,
Tom
Edit: the Leica is very interesting but totally out of my league ;) , :(
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Lloyd Chambers has some interesting thoughts on the Leica Sl, http://diglloyd.com/ (http://diglloyd.com/) as to be expected
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And of course
http://blog.mingthein.com/2015/10/21/premiere-review-2015-leica-sl-601/#more-11859 (http://blog.mingthein.com/2015/10/21/premiere-review-2015-leica-sl-601/#more-11859)
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..... the most beneficial aspects of mirrorless was that they are smaller and less intrusive than DSLR's, perhaps that is not the case?
This new Leica, and particularly its lenses, seem to be heading back towards the size of DSLR's, so what is the benefit(s) of it being mirrorless as opposed to a SLR design?
Small is not really the design goal for this camera. Leica has plenty of smallish cameras.
Remember that Leica M is a rangefinder design, so very short flange to sensor distance,,,
Leica wanted something that could use all of their old lenses, R-lenses and M-lenses in particular - For that to happen you need to get rid of the mirror box.
Also the EVF in this case should be so good that you can shoot with the lens stopped down, that is to be able to intesify the light and at a very good quality. electroncis takes up space and so does a battery for runnuing them as well as big VR AF lenses.
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Charlie, I've been shooting an Olympus EM1 (with grip) since it was released . The size difference between the higher end mirrorless and my D750 is getting more and more negligible. I've purchased a Sony a7II (with grip), my hands are too big to shoot for extended periods with out the grip ;) .
The EVFs are getting better and better but I just cannot get the action shooting down with the EVF. What I really like is the fact that I can see all of the adjustments I make , in the EVF before I shoot. I am really interested in how my Nikon/Voigt/Leica lenses work, using MF, on the Sony and its' IBIS and EVF. I fully expect that the Sony FF cameras will keep getting larger.
That said, the EM1 w/o grip, with the 17 1.8/9-18mm mounted, is a small package for walk about. When Nikon responds with a FF mirrorless (which has to happen :)it will be interesting to see what size and shape.
Cheers,
Tom
Edit: the Leica is very interesting but totally out of my league ;) , :(
Comparing Leica SL with other cameras is really not interesting or relevant; For the customer or for Leica, since it's about using Leica legacy lenses on a Leica camera. The end ;)
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Oops, sorry :( . It will not happen again , should have known better ;D .
Tom
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After reading some of the linked tests I understand that the camera seems to be bigger and heavier than it appears on the product photo in the opening post.
The IQ seems to be really nice too (with the best M-Glass).
But: For me the system is much too expensive and with just one lens currently available (a zoom and I do not zoom) not interesting.
I am really happy with what I have for the time being.
What I miss is more time for shooting, image review and editing. This is exactly where no camera in the world can help me. I have been to Southern Germany last week with the kids and took some wonderful shots. No time to review, edit, post. Work, Kids, Household. My world currently.
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Leica wanted something that could use all of their old lenses, R-lenses and M-lenses in particular - For that to happen you need to get rid of the mirror box.
Ah ha, makes perfect sense now.
Thank you Erik, Keith, and Tom for your insights.
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It will take Leica years to establish a set of lenses comparable to what Nikon and Canon is offering to Pros, 8mm FF 16mm FFFE, 14mm 20mm 24mm and 300mm 400mm 500mm 600mm 800mm etc
In the mean while you can pick from the MF R-lenses... not enough for all Pros...
It's for select Pros and rich amateurs that have some S, R and/or M lenses that would like to put on the SL as a back up or as a main camera next to their S or M cameras.
Makes perfect sense to be able to use the SL for long M lenses to nail focus better and for the ultra wide to frame better with the alleged fantastic EVF ;)
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I wonder where the name SL-601 came from? Reminds me of the Nikon F-601 (N6006 in USA) which was an early middle-of-the-road AF film camera...
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I wonder where the name SL-601 came from? Reminds me of the Nikon F-601 (N6006 in USA) which was an early middle-of-the-road AF film camera...
The SL designation originally for the Leicaflex SL was an abbreviation of "Selective Light", the name chosen by Leitz for its implementation of TTL metering.
601 is a model number
Spiegel Los...
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Time for some hands on although the weather this afternoon was pouring the light in the Copenhagen Leica Store was quite ok for some first impressions - SL is a really nice camera!
View finder
Amazing, after a short while it felt like looking through any Pro DSLR view finder including red outlines along all sharp edges for focus aid this is a huge leap in technology for view finders. also with the lens stopped down all seems to be clear and bright.
For this to work the camera need contrast and sharpness in a ample amount;
Leica M-Lenses
Full support via a short adapter that relays basic data about the lens in use, the SL guess the aperture like the Leica M cameras via a small sensor on the camera body compared with the light through the lens.
Normal and tele
With the 50mm 1,4 and Tele 70mm 2.4 lenses wide open only a very limited amount of an image get the red outlines due to the very slim depth of focus. so it's very easy to nail focus quickly actually very Range Finder like focusing is possible.
Except that 'good' light is required for this to work the camera need crispness for contrast, the store light was not enough to do an indoor portrait at all...
As you stop the lens down you get more edges and areas in focus and therefore more indication on the plane or sphere of the in focus 'volume' but less chance to really nail focus and the whole idea falls apart and you get to focus similar to a matte screen...
Wide
Now the 35mm 1.4 seems to be a sweet spot for 'normal shooting'
Very wide
So now the new technology gets challenged with the 24mm 3.8 a huge amount of the image is showing as being in focus... so only chance is to zoom in with the focus peaking to see where the depth of focus is at, it works but no where as easy as with a range finder... but you get to see the whole field of view as opposed to a Leica M where you need an external finder for that. This makes the over all experience similar to shooting with a Leica M camera;
- First focus via the camera finder
- Then framing
Looks like the SL is usable for manual focusing but not really surpassing the Leica M's I would prefer to use the normal and longer M lenses on the SL
DoF and slow shutter simulation
Actually quite impressive the SL is able to show slow shutter tracing when moving the camera to an degree you will not believe; You will have to see this for yourself!
The view finder is really a huge leap forward in how to crate the image in the finder already before shooting the actual image to an degree above a DSLR...
The size and quality of the finder and rear display is fantastic.
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Size
The SL is actually same size as a Leica M9 with the RRS plate and grip, thickness length and height. Very nicely balanced and oozes quality
The SL feels really right even for my very big hands and the weather sealing and build quality is top notch. Very cleaver and minimalistic design.
Standard Zoom 24-90mm 2.8-4
Here you see the standard zoom behind my 35mm 1.4 - the zoom is large about the size and weight of the Nikkor 28-70mm 2.8 AFS or the new 24-70mm VR
The variable aperture is a non issue for me.
Feel and the hood
The real differences are the rather heavy drag of the zoom and focus rings and the ugly lens hood is attached to the end of the lens sticking out of the main lens barrel, not pretty - but OK... very distinct and recognizable for the brand... IMHO they should have gone with a lens hood design similar to the new Nikkor 24-70 VR lens hood, also the hood lags a decent lock to keep it in place the way it's shaped it could easily get knocked loose.
Focus
Super fast and positive focus, impressive!
Function
Overall function is like shooting a Pro DSLR like a D800 or D4
With a grip it will be the same...
Image Quality
Here some images with the zoom, it's fantastic at all focal lengths... True Leica quality
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At least they offered an espresso :)
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B&W
For the B&W shooter there is really a boost in creative functionality, when set to B&W the finder show the image so well rendered with tonal graduations and grain that it's a whole new level of interaction with the camera, the test images are shot with the zomm again JPG directly form the card just resized. The camera saves a RAW file with full color of course.
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SL with Leica M lenses
Very similar experience to shooting an M and the image quality of the output form the SL looks similar, first impressions are the very far corners on the 24mm 3.8 is suffering a bit wide open...
RAW files
The Adobe raw convert doesn't have full support for the SL yet and since I used my SD card directly from my Leica M9 that is the presets the software used, looks ok except the very red look of the logo color is a challenge in any situation.
Images below are with the following M-lenses wide open:
50mm 1.4
24mm 3.8
70mm 2.4
24mm 3.8
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Price point is very close to a set like Nikon D4s with a 24-70 VR so for what is does out of the box it's fair in Leica land...
The challenge to win some Pro customers is to expand the lens arsenal although many could get away with the two zooms and a few primes...
Congratulations to Leica for creating a leap up in technology with the new SL
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So, have you bought the new Leica then, Erik?
Sure looks nice.
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I'm seriously considering it...
There is naturally a new Leica M (Type 262) in the pipeline and it will be interesting to see how they will use the new viewfinder technology for it... My best guess is that it's an external view finder for the hot shoe like on the Type 240 so you end up with a 'Add on' solution... to keep the Leica M - Messucher-Kamera experience intact... not really ideal...
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Interface
The human interaction with the cameras input dials and output screens are completely different to Nikon.
I have used Nikon cameras since 1989 with the F801s, F4, F5, D1, D1X, D2Xs, D3 and D3X so my interaction whit their interface is 'burned in'
The SL is customizable to a certain degree but it will take some getting used too...
The feel and look is really nice but very different to Nikon and of course there is a similar extensive menu for AF etc.
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M-Lenses on SL
Last but not least the 35mm 1.4 Asph FLE it really feels at home size the overall feel and the view finder experience is great, it snaps into focus and the admittedly few image shot looks great, very similar in image quality to the Leica M9
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Very nice and detailed writeup Erik, though most things sound very familiar as an a7S owner it is very good to hear that Leica got it right on all fronts besides maybe the premium price which puts it out of my reach anytime soon.
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Erik, a great sales pitch :) . Great collection of images. I particularly like the reflections image, what, no security guard on the door ? ;) Your comments on the VFs are very interesting. I will have a wander about the Net to get more info. I really do not think there is any chance of seeing one in Goa :( .
Thanks for posting. The system is totally outside the range of activating GAS for me :) . What I do think is that the money is much better spent on a Leica than spending $20,000 (and the rest) on a watch ;)
Tom
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I was really surprised by the high performance of this camera! I see no issues with the price compared to similar products; Top Pro cameras.
The diopter adjustment dial is smooth and,,, it just works.
Battery doesn't drop completely out when you tip the release leaver, you need to give it an extra small push to get it fully out, very well thought out.
Weather sealing is really cleverly designed, and the door for SD and connections are very well sealed and looks durable in use.
Full size HDMI for the video guys and standard screw thread flash sync plug.
This camera can do all the stuff I can think of... Except there is no AFS adapter for all of my Nikkors and I don't know if there will ever bee one...
I can only use MF via; Nikon F to Leica M-mount adapter on the 'Leica M Adapter T' (Remember that the SL actually share the lens mount with their recently launched Leica T camera, although it's a crop sensor camera)
There will come PL mount, S mount and 'Leica R-Adapter L' for the old Leica R mount lenses, they apparently perform well on the SL...
Anyway - I have decided not to buy it, I'll wait and see how the new Leica M will look like, I still love the simplicity of the Leica M system.
No guards needed in these parts of the woods :D
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Regarding VR and or IBIS
For me these are not so important at all, it's only useful in very few cases for my type of photography, for me it's much better to freeze the motion with a short shutter speed, pan along the path of the subject or use a tripod/monopod.
I have seen many 'unpredictable' results using VR the reason as far as I can tell is that; when you 'shake' the camera and the VR actively compensates this movement to keep the in-focus motif steady within the image, the back and/or fore-ground will/can move within the frame...
It takes the VR system some time to 'kick in' - I don't know how long time it is for the SL and Vario Elmar 24-90 to perform this initial kick in...
Sure it can come in handy for some applications especially long lenses >300mm but it's not something I would recommend to have switched On all the time on wider/normal lenses.
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So Erik, is this a new M :) or ???
http://leicarumors.com/
I agree on VR and really normally only use it with the 500vr on the tripod (not locked down). I do find IBIS very nice. The Olympus (EM1) is better than the Sony a7II. The Nikon 1802.8D still needed speed on the a7II/novoflex . The IBIS is good for the short FL lenses I have with the a7II and the EM1/75 1.8 works a treat. I used to be able to hand hold most lenses under 135 at very low speed but age is catching up . I have tried using the 16-35vr at very low speeds, handheld, depending on VR. Not happy with the results :(
Tom
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More news in Leica land wow ;D Thanks for the heads up!
Hand holding a camera lens and getting a sharp image has a huge amount of variables involved - Weight and overall balance of the camera/lens being of paramount importance.
It was quite obvious when I 'zoomed' in on the focus peaking of the SL how shaky I was hand holding it with the small M lenses... and all to often I see this with the Leica M9 as well in the images, these high MP cameras need stability and or high shutter speeds to nail sharpness when and where needed... See it also on the D3X btw!
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Most people never mount their camera gear on a decent tripod/head and thus never will learn how good (or bad) their lenses are.
VR is a "helping hand", but NOT a life saver that can be relied upon all the time. Same can be said for in-camera methods.
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Focusing
My impression after shooting the SL with Leica M lenses is that it's generally very similar to focusing on ground glass (Matt screen) with a DSLR and judging depth of focus is even better than using aperture stop down and judging from the matt screen on a DSLR.
Lenses with a slim depth of focus in relation to the field of view are very easy to focus.
Lenses like 35mm 1,4 and 50mm 1.4 and 75mm 2.4 are very similar to focusing a Leica M9 via the contrast patch
The added possibility to zoom in to see the focus peaking makes it possible to see the depth of focus even for wide angle lenses like 24mm 3.8 quite impressive!
DSLR can't do this, even the Nikon Df witch has a matte screen quite good for MF, can compete with the SLs view finder.
If I use Live view on the rear display of the D3X and the Zacuto finder I can do the same of course...
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I can hardly wait to see you in action with your new SL Leica :)
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Erik, I'm not sure how exciting this will be for you ;)
http://digicame-info.com/2015/11/leica-m-typ-262.html
By the by, when I went to pick up my son from school, a good friend was picking up his son. He buys all of the high end cameras. Just bough the a7RII to go with his D4S, D810, Fuji XT-1, X100T , 5DS, etc, etc.... I'll mention the SL to him ;) Then I might get to play with it :) .
Tom
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Indeed there was no real new Leica M this time;
It's re-launch of the Type 240 without Video, LV and frame selector and a series of a la carte options of the 240 without Video, LV and with or without frame selector in colors galore - Sometimes I just don't understand how that small company can exist with all those options and variants along with hopeless small camera types...
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I can hardly wait to see you in action with your new SL Leica :)
.....
Anyway - I have decided not to buy it, I'll wait and see how the new Leica M will look like, I still love the simplicity of the Leica M system.
.......
:-*
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Novoflex makes an adapter LET/NIK for the new SL; F mount to Leica L (Leica T) G-Type lenses as well, however not with Nikons latest E type... No AF or anything
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Quite impressive, and it is always good to have Ferrari on the market even if I only plan to get an Alfa Romeo. At least they act as a laboratory guiding other developments...
The advantages that you describe, Erik, about the EVF are actually the main reason why I purchased my Fuji X-T1 (this plus the small size vs the D700). It have been very satisfied with these aspects of the Fuji so far.
Not trying to hijack your thread or to start a brand war, it is not at all my style. But I mean that what you obviously enjoyed very much about the SL is actually already present on the market, probably in less accomplished implementations.
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Sure Fuji has a solid grip on the camera market with their X line I agree ;)
However; Leica has taken the view finder, AF, build and image quality to a level comparable to the D4 and D3X the top of the line Nikon flagships and at the same price level!
I can only say; Please walk by a Leica dealer and have a look for yourself.
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I had a go with the Mercedes...eh, Leica SL today.
- EVF is the best around, REALLY impressive size, clarity, etc. Not much lag when panning.
Drawback as with other EVFs when shooting fast moving objects...frozen viewfinder.
- 11 fps (30 pics max, raw or jpegs, before buffer is full.
- Shuttersound is very theatre-friendly, even at full burst rate.
- The rear LCD is touchable and very clear.
Otherwise it is just like a Leica...built like no other camera brand.
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The Fuji has its strong points, but getting a better EVF is obviously possible. Or so I hope. I must take a look at this Leica if Erik hasn't already got it before I team up with him tomorrow evening :D
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You two see each other a lot!
The Fuji X-T1 has a great EVF but it is left in the dust behind the SL.
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Just packing nearly 14 kg of photo sundries - Erik and I have plans for a nerdy weekend with lots of smaller projects :D
I'm sure he'd be pleased to drag me along to the Leica store if required.
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Just packing nearly 14 kg of photo sundries - Erik and I have plans for a nerdy weekend with lots of smaller projects :D
I'm sure he'd be pleased to drag me along to the Leica store if required.
I might arse myself in with you guys on the next nerdocation in the near future...
Honestly, that SL is a nice camera. (On a side note...I tried out the Milvus 50 and 85 today ;D)
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Thanks for your additional impressions Sten!
Indeed it's a good analogy the Mercedes SL ;D
Please feel free to join a nerdy workshop!
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what? butterfly opening battery door? :P
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Well Erik, the no frills M typ 262 for $5K + :( . I could certainly live without vids and even live view but I just don't think I could live with the "smaller" Red Dot ;D
What if no body noticed... lol... just funning you :) . I am looking at some older Leica lenses for the Sony so expect some PMs .
Tom
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He he, yes it's similar to what Nikon did; they had the D4 and reused the sensor in the Df but without video... ;)
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Yesterday I borrowed the SL and we had time to play with it more thoroughly.
In camera lens distortion correction
Looks like there is more that meets the eye with the SL, everybody seems impressed with the high ISO performance, me not so much, seems there is easily some banding appearing just lifting the shadows in this ISO 125 shot - and then I noticed the shape of the banding in the corner and along the top edge; It's pincushion curved... this could only happen in the camera for the DNG file and in the JPG file from the camera...to correct barrel-distortion...
The new Leica Q does this as well...
Kit-Performance
It's a really nice kit, the SL and the new zoom performs really nicely together.
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more EU no thanks, :)
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Erik, was the SL you tested a production model, or a pre-production one?
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It's a production unit, for sale ;)
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How much did you lift the shadows?
Any exposure compensation in post on top of that?
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He first shot is of course lifted a lot to show what Im talking about so not relevant as souch...
Banding shows quickly about two stops even for ISO 125... maybe some changes in firmware are needed...
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It's a production unit, for sale ;)
Okay, it should be fixed by the firmware update, then...
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To be honest I'm very disappointed that there is so much correction in the firmware for the lens, I didn't see that one coming!
ISO is ok as long as you don't try to push the files too much... but also some what disappointing.
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Here the Copenhagen eye as the shot was intended ;) so no lifting of the shadows and B&W, I like it ::)
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Usability
Performance of the SL with focal length about 24mm and up is unquestionable fantastic - the usability is les so IMHO.
The view finder is fantastic sure but it is not easy to MF using focus peaking for longer lenses; Contrast focus, stopping lenses up and down to compensate, compose and find exact depth of focus while fiddling with buttons on the camera.
Not for action shooting but for tripod static shooting they will sing.
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Thanks for the report and test, Erik
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Erik, you might have mentioned this already but does the SL have an easy option to zoom into the image while focussing manually like the Sony's, one of the real benefits of an electronic viewfinder IMHO.
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Yes you can set one button for that, and then move it around as you please.
The screen is the touch type works with scaling etc.
Here some Leica M 35mm 1.4 Asph FLE images wide open.
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And here some more with the Vario Elmarit L mount Zoom all wide open
The ISO banding is apparent clearly in many of the images even without PP-ing...
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And the tiny 12mm 5.6 LTM Voigtlander
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Erik in action with the new Leica SL, a bleak day in Copenhagen. In Erik's hands even the SL seems to be of modest size :D
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Lensrentals has taken the Zoom apart, rapport is here:
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2016/02/a-peak-inside-the-leica-vario-elmarit-sl-24-90mm-f2-8-4-asph
Thats a lot of CRC going on in that lens,,, interesting AF step motor design
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Interesting: Only "a single small lightweight element" moves for focusing. The new Panasonic 100-400 zoom also focuses with only one single small lightweight element which is of an ED aspherical one. I wonder which company came up with the design, Leica or Panasonic? ;)
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Herr Doctor.
Why your Exif is showing a location map?
Is it included in the SL camera or accessory?
Location: Magstræde 12, 1204 København K, Denmark - Nov 20 2015
Location: Skoubogade 2, 1158 København K, Denmark - Nov 20 2015
......etc
Inquiring minds like to know?
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Yes the SL has a build in Very fine GPS ;)
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Yes the SL has a build in Very fine GPS ;)
Vee know vere you vere last zummer ;)
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No surprise given Erik is a citizen of Copenhagen ....
I assume the raw EXIF GPS data has been run through a geolocation routine. This tends to work pretty well in urban areas with a high population density, not so well if you are in the sticks so to speak. Google geolocation does suggest the funniest addresses sometimes and I stopped using their API.
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Here is how it works in the SL:
Another very practical feature of the Leica SL is an integrated GPS module for geotagging your
pictures. The precise shooting location is recorded in the EXIF data of the image file. The Leica SL
also gets the precise local time directly from the GPS satellite. As this avoids the need for setting
the time, it is a practical feature for frequent fliers and travelers who often move from one
time zone to another. The precise geographic location of every picture can be mapped in Adobe®
Photoshop® Lightroom® and avoids the need for elaborate documentation of locations when shooting
a reportage.
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BTW looking back at this thread and now having decided to get the Nikon D810 instead.
I can see that there is a long road ahead for Leica to catch up in general IQ, high ISO and the rally fantastic viewfinder as well as the overall responsiveness of the D810 then add the by now extremely familiar layout of buttons, functions and menus,,,
The lens is on the other hand is very comparable to the 24-70mm 2.8 AFS E VR
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I don't mind the lenses being large and of good quality; I mind the bodies being so small that you can hardly hold the combo comfortably ;)
Actually, at 147 × 104 × 39 mm (W × H × D) and 847g with battery, I'd hardly call the SL small.
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In DxOMark terms the Leica SL and Nikon D5 have sensors at equal performance. Leica perhaps bettet for landscapes, Nikon bettet low light ability. For what a number is worth.
http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D5-versus-Leica-SL--Typ-601-___1062_1058
Eric
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The German company Novoflex has introduced an electronic adapter to use Canon EOS AF lenses on the Leica SL.
Link: http://www.dpreview.com/news/2884344533/novoflex-releases-canon-ef-electronic-adapter-for-leica-sl-camera
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There is now a similar Novoflex adapter for AFS Nikkor E type lenses for the Leica SL ;)
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-news/2016/09/nikon-af-lenses-leica-sl-novoflex-adapter/?utm_source=20160913en&utm_medium=E-Mail