NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: MEPER on March 29, 2024, 10:45:09
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I have been asked to take some images at a wedding.
Primary before going to the church. The plan is some outside images of the wedding pair.
Normally I shot NEF but I wonder if JPEG (Fine) is the way to go as for the whole wedding the number of images can be many and then easier to just give away a stick with all images insted of all the work required to convert NEF to JPG.
Camera is Z50. Lenses are Z16-50, Z50-250, Z50/1.8. I have a Z24-70/4 coming soon. Then I have some AFS lenses etc. I have an AFS 70-200/2.8 VR.
They know I am not a pro and many others will probably takes pictures so the pre-church outdoor images are the most important. Plan is also to bring the D5200 just for backup purpose (hopefully it will not be used).
Should I stay at NEF for those fewer outdoor images and then maybe change to JPEG for the rest?
I think Z50/1.8 could be nice to try for some good background blur. The Z50-250 is surprisingly sharp and 70-200/2.8 VR (1. gen) is very good also for DX and is sharp at 2.8.
I had a thought to upgrade to a Z5 but I would rather like to wait for the next gen Z DX camera as I am quite happy with the Z50. Also the Z50/1.8 is better on DX for portraits.
I will bring my flash also for the outdoor images (SB-400 with diffuser).
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Shoot NEF + jpg(fine). Then use jpgs for the client unless you need to process extra.
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Sounds like a good idea with NEF+JPG.
I have never used JPG from camera but it is rumored that they are ok.
Picture control it set to auto and "everything" at zero.
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Wonder if it would be a good idea to put on polarizer for the outdoor shots.
I the film-days I nearly always used polarizer for nature / outdoor.
On digital I have almost forgot I have those filters in various sizes.
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Some times old habits can safely be forgotten.
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Maybe most people think that they can "create" the "look" in post processing like more saturated colors but they can't get the transparency in still water etc. a polarizer can create.
For wedding photography outdoor the effect may not be that huge. I can try with and without. If I use the Z 50/1.8 at 1.8 (to blur the background) the polarizer could serve a purpose also as a light gray filter if there is too much light so I run out of shutter times :-)
In the film days I remember that film was not 100% linear if very fast shutter times was used but I don't know with sensors. Probably the camera is intelligent and can "adapt" for that. At least I can look at the histogram and adapt myself.
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In the film days I remember that film was not 100% linear if very fast shutter times was used but I don't know with sensors. Probably the camera is intelligent and can "adapt" for that. At least I can look at the histogram and adapt myself.
Digital sensors do not suffer from reciprocity failure.
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I used polarizers a lot when shooting landscapes with film. Somehow, the effect is different is not the same on digital sensors. I still use them for removing reflections from water or deepening the colour and filtering out haze in the sky, if the effect improves the image. Sometimes it is useful for taking reflections off foliage but in many cases the difference with/without a polarizer is minimal, or the filter has a strange effect of lowering contrast giving a muddy effect. I now use polarizers much less than I used to, but they are still useful sometimes.
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I will try it out with polarizers to check the effect on digital.
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Instead of using a polarising filter, with its inherent quirks of uneven sky rendition with wide-agle lenses, plus often muddy or pumped-up colours, invest in an ND filter of good quality to lower exposures in daylight. This will enable using those wide or nearly wide apertures on your 50mm lens and still keep exposures below the max.shutter speed of your camer (1/4000sec if memory serves). An ND2X or 4X would be ideal.
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I think I only have 39mm ND filters and maybe a 52mm but none 62mm or larger.
I can see my usual webshop I use has a reduced price on a 62mm vario filter (+1 - +5).
A B+W nano. Should those vario ND filters be avoided?
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Just realized that vario ND-filters are two polarizers against each other so.....would be stupid decision to use those.
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Should those vario ND filters be avoided?
IMO: Variable NDs are a mixed bag. They can solve problems but also have drawbacks.
They tend to have a color cast, typically slightly warm and slightly green. They usually have a pola effect, but both the polarizing effect and the color cast is not consistent between brands.
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When I do a search for ND filters then most hits are those variable ND filters.
I can find the "fixed" filters also but price difference among them are huge. Difficult to judge which to get.
The usual web shop I use sell Haida Nano pro and I was in for those. But just until I found out that their ND1.8 is a x64 filter and a 3.0 is a x1000.
The webshop does not advertise an e.g. 0.9 or 1.2 which is a 3 and 4 stop filter. It is a very strange way to "name" such a filter......it nearly "fooled" me.
I assume that when Birna mentioned a ND2 / ND4 is was 2 to 4 stop filter.......which also makes sense for my purpose.
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I ended up with Hoya PROND HD4 filters in 52,62,77 mm.
I checked which fast lenses I have that I will use on Z-body. So now I am prepared for sunlight wide aperture images......
Those filters where reasonable priced and I think good enough for my purpose.
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ND2 is two stops, so factor 4X. ND4 is 4 stops, so factor 16X.
The alternate designation is using optical density. OD 3 = 1000X.
For my Rodenstock & Rayxar 50mm f/0.75 lenses I tend to use ND8 filters, which is 8 stops or 256X, on the little Z30 with its 1/4000sec max. shutterspeed. Without filter it is nearly impossible to use these lenses on that camera.
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I see......optical density.
I think ND4 may be a good compromise when I only get one type.
The fastest lens I have in 52mm is the 58/1.2 Noct, in 62mm is the Z 50/1.8 and 77mm is the AF 85/1.4D.
It seems Z50 max. shutter speed is 1/4000 both mechanical and electronic. I think some models have higher max. shutter speed when using the electronic shutter?
But anyway......probably best to always use the mechanical shutter unless total silence is needed?
Electronic shutter speed can show some strange "artifacts"?
Of course another advantage using the electronic shutter is that it will be less prone to break?
I wonder if the "click" statistics only count mechanical shutter use......or maybe both. I have never noticed where in the menu to look for that.
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It seems when Hoya calls a filter ND4, then it is a 2-stop filter (they write that on the box).
So confusing with so many terms to describe a ND-filter. So ND4 is x4.
We will see if 2-stops is enough.....
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Because of the ease of converting RAW files in bulk to JPG I never change my image quality from NEF Lossless, maximum resolution to anything else. It's too easy to forget and shoot with the wrong settings at a later date. Another issue is I never give or show decidedly unflattering images of any person to anyone. I would review the images quickly and cull any really bad shots, then convert the NEF in bulk.
The most important thing(s) I can think of is carry extra batteries both for camera and flash. I once had damaged NiMH batteries mixed in a group and had no time to sort them out. These were AA batteries for flash so I switch to new alkaline batteries. That saved my ass. Carry more memory cards than you think you will need! You won't have time during a wedding to cull bad shots.
I wonder about the SB-400? I don't think it's powerful enough to use with a diffuser. With a high ISO it can be bounced off a low white ceiling in a small room. It's good for raw fill with back lite subjects in day light at close range. I don't think it will cope with an ND filter. The SB-400 is extremely convenient to carry when flash is not a priority but it's a low power flash and very close to the lens of red eye can be a problem. Any SB-800 or 900/910 would be a better choice. Diffusers are over rated for on camera flash in my experience except at very close range, e.g. macro/micro photography. I frequently use a STO-FEN type cap a 1 meter or less and never at a distance of more than 1.5 meters.
Anyway I recommend extra memory cards and extra batteries for both camera and flash and a full size speedlight.
Best,
Dave
Edit: 950 SHB 910
I own several SB-800(s) an SB-700 and an SB-400
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Thank you for the info.
Good idea with a more powerful flash.
I have negotiated a price for a 2nd hand SB-910. 160 Euro incl. shipping was ok I think for a nice looking one (the one attached).
It will be shipped today.
My SB-28 / 80DX is a bit more complicated to use as they should run in "computer mode (flash needs to know ISO/aperture)". Camera needs to run in Aperture-mode which I always do anyway.
So with 910 attached from a distance outdoor I can just use it with flashhead (without diffuser) against the wedding pair for fill-in flash purpose?
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Are you confident with this job? To me it sounds like you have many questions regarding shooting a wedding,,,
Shooting a wedding with little depth of focus, wide open, takes a lot of skill/practice, not recommended for a first wedding.
Under no circumstance would I use ND filters or polarizers for weddings, I see no reason at all.
Yes flash outdoors is very good for fill flash at weddings, and yes with diffuser, setting up SB910 correctly is mandatory for fill flash to work well,,, FP 1/250
I always used big flash SB 800 - 910 with f/2.8 zooms; 35-70 AF-D, 28-70 AF-S, 24-70 AF-S and the big Nikon Bodies or with grip; F4E, F5, D1, D1X, D2X, D3, D850 since it's a heavy setup to carry for hours,,,
Always also a complete back up set of; Camera, lens and flash, just in case,,,
Film/memory cards and batteries in the pockets, not in a bag somewhere,,,
Also often Elinchrom battery pack, Ranger RS with a big softboks to overpower the sun with soft light, for the images of the couple.
Then scouting out the church, talking to the priest for permission, what's allowed, what can you get away with, overall location knowledge is helpful for camera angles.
Then knowing who is who,,, because some pictures of the key persons are mandatory,,,
Being alert for all the key moments, arrival, brides maids! ring, kiss, flowers, exit church, rice, parents, kids, official as well as unofficial,,,
Good luck!
PS definetly NEF raw files, they are so much more flexible to edit and quick to bulk convert, and a good opportunity to save images with issues re light etc
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Erik writes with great wisdom!
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Yes, good with some wisdom :-)
It is my first wedding.
I know the couple and it is not their first wedding.
My primary job is to do the outdoor pictures of the wedding pair (for the test of the wedding I have a "free role". I am participating as a guest also).
It will be a photo session with only the pair (before going to the church) in a small park with a small lake.
I have shot outdoor people before but not used fill-in flash much. So this is probably the most serious outdoor portraits so far I will do.
As it is in a park I want to blur the background as much as possible.
Grayfilters are only for outdoor and only if f/1.8 (Z 50/1.8) causes shutter time faster than 1/4000 sec. Will see how the light is on the day (still 6 weeks or so to prepare).
I will also use f/2.8 - f/5.6 probably to have a lot of images to select from.
I will read about Z50 fill-in flash. I will also practice a bit when I receive the SB-910. If a shutter speed about 1/4000 is necessary without fill-in flash then I am unsure if Z50 is able to "fill-in" at 1/4000. Maybe fill-in flash is not possible at those speeds. If not it is very bad for Nikon flash technology :-) .....for standard flash images I think max. sync speed is 1/200s for Z50.....but fill-in flash may be something different. Maybe it will work only for shutter speeds 1/200 and slower. In this case it is not for much use for large aperture lens portraits (without grayfilters). Of course with grayfilters you can slow down the shutter speeds to get get down to 1/200s or slower.
About the SB-910 and diffuser:
Do you want me to get a 3rd party diffuser to put on the head for fill-in flash purpose?
It is the very expensive white "Tupperware" plastic cap?
I don't think it is included in the set by Nikon. I think there is a white plastic card you can pull out to bounce from or maybe a diffuser you can pull out and put in front of the head. It am not familiar with SB-910 yet. It was a quick purchase without thinking much as the price seems very reasonable.
I also have to look at various wedding pair portraits as the pair expect me to guide them how to "stand" .....or lay (probably not :-) ).
A white wedding dress in full sunlight can probably be a challenge to capture with all the details. A bit overcast will be fine......but time will show.
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This image example is really bad according to my taste:
https://www.brides.com/coordinating-wedding-day-looks-6501066 (https://www.brides.com/coordinating-wedding-day-looks-6501066)
Distracting background, his leg position looks bad, lacking details in white dress.
It seems it should be a good example of how a wedding pair image should look like.
But it is outdoor pictures like this that is my primary job. Hopefully I can do better :-)
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Shoot NEF + jpg(fine). Then use jpgs for the client unless you need to process extra.
100%
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I find the group image to be among the most important records in hindsight.
It seems worth it to do at least a little scouting: alternate location options, background, expected lighting...
It is good to be prepared, to get everyone to a reasonable place quickly and focused to the image taking.
A further challenge comes for keeping most everything in control, when you are also a guest and should be part of the picture.
Below a photo from a family reunion 1929: my great-grandma and her 16 grown up children with partners and children, including my long deceased mom as a young child. Almost all people have been identified - much later.
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Shoot NEF + jpg(fine). Then use jpgs for the client unless you need to process extra.
on Jobs that is the way to go and I use in camera backup although I did not see any card fail since the CF days
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I find the group image to be among the most important records in hindsight.
Group shots are the most important in my book
get other photographers away from the scene and make the people in the frame look at the camera
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Very nice group image.
Body will be Z50 which has only space for one card.
I have always used SanDisk cards and never had a failure. I will keep using them until at see a problem.
I once used a Duracell branded card. I never do that again :-) .....that brand is on my "blacklist".
I will probably use one card for the outdoor wedding pair images which is my main task and then put this card away and use other cards for the other images.
I have purchased 2 x 3rd party batteries for the Z50. Cellonic brand (designed in Germany :-) ). Those are 1180 mAH. Almost same as Nikon EL25 (1120 mAH). So 4 batteries should do it (2 x Nikon, 2 x Cellonic).
I also just received the funny small 12-28mm VR DX zoom. Made for video I think but reviews found it very usable for still images also. A quite cheap zoom. I found a new one for a good price. Just used it and seems to be a very nice lens. Ready for use without need for turn the zoom ring first to "unlock". It is a PD-type zoom. Also got another SB-910 where zoom head works as it should. The other one "Kenneth" was able to fix the head at 24mm and everything works. I think if you use the flash with diffuser it it fine that it is set to 24mm (widest).
I was in doubt if I should invest in more DX-lenses but I like the DX format and think I will get the next DX body offering from Nikon. For me 12mm (18mm FX) is fine. I am not a wide angle "freak".
I also got 36 x AA Panasonic Eneloop and a charger that can take 16 at a time.
For the weeding pair portraits I currently have those lenses in my mind:
Z 50-250/4.5-6.3 VR
Z 50/1.8
Z 40/2
Z 24-70/4 S
The 50-250 is pretty good and has VR and very light weight. But not a "pro" lens.
The 50/1.8 and 24-70 is more "pro" like. the 40/2 very portable and fine lens also.
But for wide open with shallow DOF I prefer the 50/1.8 as it is sharper wide open.
Will see how much I like to carry. I am a but tempted with the 50-250 which is also very nice for inside the church.
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Group shots are the most important in my book
get other photographers away from the scene and make the people in the frame look at the camera
I will suggest a group image. Maybe when everyone are going from the church so outside the church but it will require someone to organize it. Would need some help for that.
Will ask the wedding pair if they want such an image.
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When I worked in a film lab, I learned from the wedding photographers that the three most important pictures from a wedding are:
1. Bride and groom
2. Bride and groom with the bride's parents
3. Bride and groom with the groom's parents.
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In this case there is only one parent left.
I need to get used to the SB-910 flash.
It has a TTL-BL mode. Assume that is a nice setting for outdoor fill-in flash.
I should probably have the flash head pointing direct at the persons?
The diffuser that can be attached is not very high so not much light will get through the side of it if head is angled 45 degrees.
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Very nice group image.
Body will be Z50 which has only space for one card.
I have always used SanDisk cards and never had a failure. I will keep using them until at see a problem.
I once used a Duracell branded card. I never do that again :-) .....that brand is on my "blacklist".
I will probably use one card for the outdoor wedding pair images which is my main task and then put this card away and use other cards for the other images.
I have purchased 2 x 3rd party batteries for the Z50. Cellonic brand (designed in Germany :-) ). Those are 1180 mAH. Almost same as Nikon EL25 (1120 mAH). So 4 batteries should do it (2 x Nikon, 2 x Cellonic).
I also just received the funny small 12-28mm VR DX zoom. Made for video I think but reviews found it very usable for still images also. A quite cheap zoom. I found a new one for a good price. Just used it and seems to be a very nice lens. Ready for use without need for turn the zoom ring first to "unlock". It is a PD-type zoom. Also got another SB-910 where zoom head works as it should. The other one "Kenneth" was able to fix the head at 24mm and everything works. I think if you use the flash with diffuser it it fine that it is set to 24mm (widest).
I was in doubt if I should invest in more DX-lenses but I like the DX format and think I will get the next DX body offering from Nikon. For me 12mm (18mm FX) is fine. I am not a wide angle "freak".
I also got 36 x AA Panasonic Eneloop and a charger that can take 16 at a time.
For the weeding pair portraits I currently have those lenses in my mind:
Z 50-250/4.5-6.3 VR
Z 50/1.8
Z 40/2
Z 24-70/4 S
The 50-250 is pretty good and has VR and very light weight. But not a "pro" lens.
The 50/1.8 and 24-70 is more "pro" like. the 40/2 very portable and fine lens also.
But for wide open with shallow DOF I prefer the 50/1.8 as it is sharper wide open.
Will see how much I like to carry. I am a but tempted with the 50-250 which is also very nice for inside the church.
Too much equipment can be a hindrance and risks you busy with the contents of your bag. Usually, I take two cameras and perhaps a third lens.
For the event below, I just took the Z7ii with the Z 24-120 f/4 , a 1kg tripod (and the SB-700 flash not used), a 32 GB XQD card (overflow card SD 32 GB not used). The main challenge was to get the big group focused, every head in line of sight, sunglasses off. - It was a partial success... Another photographer and I took the same scene. I did ~30 interval shots 1s . He did self-timer with multiple exposures .
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Also a nice image.
If I should travel very light I could just put on the 16-50 VR kit zoom.
Set to 50 (75mm equivalent) it could make nice images of the pair. It is a really nice lens.
If 50-250 is used it should be for using it at around 80-100mm for the wedding pair for better background isolation.
The 50/1.8 and 24-70/4 zoom are better lenses but I wonder if the lack of VR cases the the final result will be better using a VR lens.
It is not the plan to bring a tripod.
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Also a nice image.
If I should travel very light I could just put on the 16-50 VR kit zoom.
Set to 50 (75mm equivalent) it could make nice images of the pair. It is a really nice lens.
If 50-250 is used it should be for using it at around 80-100mm for the wedding pair for better background isolation.
The 50/1.8 and 24-70/4 zoom are better lenses but I wonder if the lack of VR cases the the final result will be better using a VR lens.
It is not the plan to bring a tripod.
I have often the impression that weddings deteriorate to a photo shooting event - with a professional photographer taking fully dressed images of the couple taken before the actual wedding.
I believe understanding, that you are guest with second duty as amateur photog for this wedding. In this case the 16-50 DX (24-70 FX equivalent) may well be good for all situations. It is good to have a bit wide reserve with 16 for big group images - but, try to avoid that wide, if you can.
The tripod is a must, if you are to be shown with everybody in the group image. Improvising is too limiting or tedious for that.
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When I worked in a film lab, I learned from the wedding photographers that the three most important pictures from a wedding are:
1. Bride and groom
2. Bride and groom with the bride's parents
3. Bride and groom with the groom's parents.
very true!
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Too much equipment can be a hindrance and risks you busy with the contents of your bag. Usually, I take two cameras and perhaps a third lens.
For the event below, I just took the Z7ii with the Z 24-120 f/4 , a 1kg tripod (and the SB-700 flash not used), a 32 GB XQD card (overflow card SD 32 GB not used). The main challenge was to get the big group focused, every head in line of sight, sunglasses off. - It was a partial success... Another photographer and I took the same scene. I did ~30 interval shots 1s . He did self-timer with multiple exposures .
Very good. Depending on my clients budget I shot with two bodies and two primes alone 85 on FX, 20 on DX.
If there was more money I brought my own light plus a second photographer with a third camera and a zoom.
Scouting is important. You should anticipate where you will take the shots and where the light will come from at the planned time and what happens when in rains
PS: unedited frame with an example of how my own light will change the scene on an otherwise dark spot with the most important scene in a Dokostyle: exchange of rings.
PPS: very important: Speak to the priest on what you are allowed and what not. You do not want the priest as your enemy
PPPS: I will look in the archives to find the edited shot (13 years ago)
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The wedding pair promised that it will not rain that day.
It will be a good idea to take a look at the place they pointed out they want the "pair-images" to be taken.
A green area with a very small lake (Americans will probably just call it a "waterhole").
Will see how I can organize things in my camerabag.
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The wedding pair promised that it will not rain that day.
It will be a good idea to take a look at the place they pointed out they want the "pair-images" to be taken.
A green area with a very small lake (Americans will probably just call it a "waterhole").
Will see how I can organize things in my camerabag.
I have to dig through the photos again. One important thing I learned in the job: my own choice of poictures was competely different from the couples choice. It would have been a good idea to make a preselection based on technical quality (which I did not) and then let the customers choose. In the end I delivered 20 big prints. 10 from their choice. 10 from my choice, plus a backupdrive with the originals for later revision...
The attached picture would not have passed my "technical culling". It was a bit daring to shot the scene with 50mm f/2.0 and 1/125 s ... the focus point is on the priest's face
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Very nice!
I think the Z 50-250 would be good to have in church for long distance shooting.
I am quite sure many will take photographs.
For the wedding pair shooting I am the only photographer. So this will be the most important for me.
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Very nice!
I think the Z 50-250 would be good to have in church for long distance shooting.
I am quite sure many will take photographs.
For the wedding pair shooting I am the only photographer. So this will be the most important for me.
Good luck
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I have looked at various pair-images.
I will try to make a mix of where the wedding pair looks at the camera and some where they looks at each other.
Then there can be a mix of how the pair is "linked together". If they stand besides each other, hold hand, hold arms etc.....
It is good there are a lot of images to look at online so I can take some notes. Maybe print some so I can show them as an example.
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Just a suggestion but it might be a good idea to take a couple of friends to the chosen spot and do a Practice Run?
You could try out different lenses and settings so that you know exactly what works when the wedding day arrives.
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Yes, a very good idea.
I should be able to estimate the time of day and a couple of days before I should know a little bit about the weather (rain, overcase, sun etc.).
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a little bit of inspiration (from the mobile studio that we built into the banquet room)
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Yes, thank you.
There are a lot of possibilities for various "stands".
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a little bit of inspiration (from the mobile studio that we built into the banquet room)
pretty good !
a basic 2 light source set up. Was the back ground a white paper or just an out of focus white wall ? Was there a third light to suppress shadows on the background, or was the higher left light source serving on the background too?