NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: Frank Fremerey on December 07, 2023, 00:09:21
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With my F-Bodies I am used to give my MF-lens a "No" and tell the camera that "No 1" is a 35mm f/1.4 and it "sees" and records the current value of the f-stop.
Not so with the Z. So my question is: Is there a replacement for the FTZ that can tell the camera or is the only way to chip the lens?
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I am not aware of an adapter with the necessary mechanical follower to read the aperture. So you need a chipped lens. However, without that follower you must control the aperture from the camera. Which in turn means that you need an AI-S lens for accurate results.
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In principle, a dedicated "FTZ" for manual lenses should be feasible. If the lens is not CPU-enabled, an aperture follower on the lens' side is required. The signal from the position of the follower has to be encoded and sent to the camera. This is actually what the Voigtländer and Viltrox Z lenses do already. The camera indicates the actual aperture as you rotate the aperture ring on the lens.
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With my F-Bodies I am used to give my MF-lens a "No" and tell the camera that "No 1" is a 35mm f/1.4 and it "sees" and records the current value of the f-stop.
Not so with the Z. So my question is: Is there a replacement for the FTZ that can tell the camera or is the only way to chip the lens?
I entered my AI and pre-AI lenses as non-CPU lenses on my Z 7ii controlling the aperture via camera and it works: the stopped down apertures come through to the exif data. I have not tested yet how accurate the stopped down apertures are, rough accuracy was enough for the purpose at hand. The pre-Ai unmodified lenses were not allowed on my DSLR.
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67384895
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I entered my AI and pre-AI lenses as non-CPU lenses on my Z 7ii controlling the aperture via camera and it works: the stopped down apertures come through to the exif data.
It doesn't work on my Z7II. Using a non-CPU Nikon lens + FTZ, the aperture is displayed in the top info panel as "F--", therefore there is no way to control the aperture from the camera.
I suppose that, before each time an exposure is to be made, one could re-enter the planned shooting aperture into the Non-CPU Lens Data slot as the new maximum aperture and then the EXIF would report that aperture, but that would be a difficult way to work!
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Again, the issue all boils down to the FTZ not having a mechanical aperture follower on the camera side. This simplifies the design for Nikon, of course, but possibly adds grey hair to the users?
Controlling the lens aperture from the camera side requires some electronics inside the lens. Without this one can stop down the lens so exposures will be OK, but the actual setting cannot be recorded.
The newer Voigtländer and Viltrox Z-mount lenses have the capability to set the aperture on the lens because they have a classic aperture ring, and the camera is told by way of the electronic communication what aperture is set. So that is the approach to get the best from both worlds. Nikon clearly could provide the same feature but choose not to do so.
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I suspect that the main reason Nikon didn't produce an aperture communicating adapter for non-chipped Ai lenses is the cost vs sales prospects. I'd guess that such an adapter would cost double what the FTZ II costs. It would almost certainly be heavier and probably more prone to customer complaints due to dirt getting into the mechanisms. I'd buy at least 1 if they made it.
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I ma sorry, you are right! I had forgotten how I did it.
FTZ obviously does not know the aperture and you cannot control the aperture by the camera.
I apparently had set the aperture ring by hand. The exif data as based on non CPU lens data comes out as this:
F Number : 3.5
Lens : 0mm f/0
Lens Info : 0mm f/?
Lens Model : 55mm f/3.5
Lens Spec : 0mm f/0 MF
Focal Length : 55.0 mm (35 mm equivalent: 55.0 mm)
irrespective of the aperture setting at the ring.
I had recorded the aperture by hand and wrote a little program that inserted the correct number into the MTF-plots.
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Mr Chips ;)
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Nice set of lenses to be chipped? Are they all AIS lenses? If they’re not the exposure readings will not be accurate because AI lenses are not linear, but AIS lenses are. If you haven’t done them before, I just took the metal shroud off the back of the lens after I scribed The location of the chips and use the hacksaw to cut into that area and made it look like teeth after which I broke off each little tooth and then I filed it flat so I could glue the chip on and have it supported by both shoulders of the shroud on the back of the lens . They communicate well with the FTZ adapter. Regards, Gerry.
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Nice set of lenses to be chipped? Are they all AIS lenses? If they’re not the exposure readings will not be accurate because AI lenses are not linear, but AIS lenses are. If you haven’t done them before, I just took the metal shroud off the back of the lens after I scribed The location of the chips and use the hacksaw to cut into that area and made it look like teeth after which I broke off each little tooth and then I filed it flat so I could glue the chip on and have it supported by both shoulders of the shroud on the back of the lens . They communicate well with the FTZ adapter. Regards, Gerry.
You speak the truth!
I chipped a mixture of ai-s and ai and pre-ai. A few pre-ai lenses seem to ignore the exposure reading rule, and perform as well as ai-s lenses. But as you say, most result in unpredictable and often wrong exposure using the FTZ. I only use those on my D4s.
So far I have only relied on glue for the chips, and am waiting to have enough courage to attack my 180mm ai-s with a hacksaw and files.
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In somewhat well behaved AI lenses where one can adjust the aperture lever, it may be possible to optimize performance within a limited range of apertures controlled from the camera body. For instance my chipped 55mm f/3.5 Ai provides a pretty linear aperture response in the f/3.5 to f/11 range after adjustment, whereas at the f/16 setting which I do not care much about, it is pretty abruptly stopped down to f/22.
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I suspect that the main reason Nikon didn't produce an aperture communicating adapter for non-chipped Ai lenses is the cost vs sales prospects. I'd guess that such an adapter would cost double what the FTZ II costs. It would almost certainly be heavier and probably more prone to customer complaints due to dirt getting into the mechanisms. I'd buy at least 1 if they made it.
I dont think that it is a cost/sale perspective for the gadget itself, its just some sort of Nikon specific policy we can observe since 1988 or so. Imho they
just want to sell more new lenses so one should not feel too comfortable with a better integration of old ones.
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This is a happy outcome for a chipped non-AI lens on a DSLR or Z camera without an aperture follower.
How do others cope with such chipped lenses on a Z-Body? Dial in exposure compensation or via bracketing?
In somewhat well behaved AI lenses where one can adjust the aperture lever, it may be possible to optimize performance within a limited range of apertures controlled from the camera body. For instance my chipped 55mm f/3.5 Ai provides a pretty linear aperture response in the f/3.5 to f/11 range after adjustment, whereas at the f/16 setting which I do not care much about, it is pretty abruptly stopped down to f/22.
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This is a happy outcome for chipped non-AI lens on a DSLR or Z camera without an aperture follower.
How to others cope with such chipped lenses on a Z-Body? Dial in exposure compensation or via bracketing?
I simply meter as usual. The latitude of the NEFs takes up any slack in my experience.
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Just to clarify, would setting the aperture on a chipped AI lens using the aperture ring work on a Zf or would the aperture need to be set on the body?
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On an Ai I also need to set it on the body. Ai-s just the control dial.
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Just to clarify, would setting the aperture on a chipped AI lens using the aperture ring work on a Zf or would the aperture need to be set on the body?
No, or Yes. It all depends on the technology applied.
Viltrox and Voigtländer make native Z lenses for which you can set the aperture directly on the lens and this is communicated electronically to the camera. This is accomplished without any mechanicl aperture lever in the lens. The camera will electronically stop down the lens correctly when the shutter release is operated.
For a 'chipped' F-mount lens on the FTZ or similar adapter, there is an aperture lever on the front side, but not on the rear, ie. facing the Z camers. Neither is there any aperture follower. The information sent to the camera via the electronics in the adapter is what aperture the lens will stop down to, when the aperture lever is released during the exposure. Since there is no aperture follower, the camera cannot know what setting is set on the lens, unless the nominal setting is relayed to the Z body via the FTZ/FTZ.2. I deliberately say 'nominal' as there is nothing preventing you from rotating the lens aperture ring to say f/4 whilst the chip tells you intend it to be f/8 or something else. The release of the aperture lever from the camera's side, at exposure time, will stop down the lens to whatever value commanded by the actual aperture set, or, to the end position controlled by the physical ring position. Thus, if you set by default the lens to the minimum aperture f/22 or whatever, all is working as expected. Otherwise gross overexposures can occur.
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Thank you for the detailed explanation, Birna. It seems that a native Voigtländer is necessary for enjoying both focus confirmation in the viewfinder and adjusting the aperture via a ring on the lens.
Thank you Richard, for the advice to set the aperture on both the lens and the body with chipped AI lenses. That is something I am bound to forget in the moment. I will enjoy my lenses as they are.
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Just make it a habit to lock your 'chipped' lenses at their minimum aperture, then the only option is to set aperture from the camera side. Whilst this introduces the dreaded non-optimal ergonomy from the 'G' er aof Nikkors, it will remove any error in aperture setting,
However, I do get focus confirmation in the viewfinder, even with pin-point focus selected, with my 'chipped' F-mount lenses. Thus the chip itself factors into the final equation.
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Ai lenses (indeed all lenses) misbehave if their aperture stop down spring has become tired over time.
Always check that this spring is in good strong condition, else stopping down consistency becomes lost, thereby adding an extra layer of complexity in gauging aperture response behaviour. My chipped 105mm f/2.5 (K-type) is due for a fresh new spring because of this reason.
Locking your aperture at the minimum setting is probably also good for promoting spring longevity.
In somewhat well behaved AI lenses where one can adjust the aperture lever, it may be possible to optimize performance within a limited range of apertures controlled from the camera body. For instance my chipped 55mm f/3.5 Ai provides a pretty linear aperture response in the f/3.5 to f/11 range after adjustment, whereas at the f/16 setting which I do not care much about, it is pretty abruptly stopped down to f/22.
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Ai lenses (indeed all lenses) misbehave if their aperture stop down spring has become tired over time.
Always check that this spring is in good strong condition, else stopping down consistency becomes lost, thereby adding an extra layer of complexity in gauging aperture response behaviour. My chipped 105mm f/2.5 (K-type) is due for a fresh new spring because of this reason.
Locking your aperture at the minimum setting is probably also good for promoting spring longevity.
This would cause overexposure, not undexposure. However I have a second copy of the 55mm f/3.5 that might possibly have the weak spring problem, although in that particular case it also seemed to be wear on the aperture mechanism itself that prevented the operation.
Note that I made some curious observations as to how lens name with one of Birna's chips is recorded (not the lens shot info) depending on whether the Z8 body was powered or not during mounting. I started a new thread on the topic here:
https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=10968.msg199928 (https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=10968.msg199928)