NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Lens Talk => Topic started by: ColinM on March 16, 2022, 20:41:50
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I'm always impressed by some of the exotic lenses I see you guys adapting for everyday use.
I saw a rather nice macro taken with the lens from a Minolta Dimage Scanner.
I've got one of these that has already scanned all the negs I own and I suspect a few other people have one too.
Maybe it's time to cannibalise mine too!
More details here
https://www.closeuphotography.com/minolta-dimage-scan-elite-5400-lens-removal/
Of course, some of you may have already tried this - if so, please let us know how you got on, plus any alternatives you'd recommend
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Heres a result taken by Javier Ruperez
I found this in the "Extreme Macro" group on Facebook
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I have the lens and also the Nikkor for the ED 5000 and 9000 scanner.
The Dimage 5400 lens is quite nice. I have only used it for some "playing"......nothing serious.
The tube I painted inside with anti-reflex paint and the rubber O-ring is quite important to avoid false light as it will reduce contrast a bit. There are many other ways to avoid it......but this was my solution.
I have also a tube for the ED 5000 Scanner Nikkor and all the parts to mount the ED 9000 Scanner Nikkor but have not had the time yet to finish the project. Flocking material for the tubes etc. I have also.
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A small example more. I just did a snapshot with the lens. A small vintage wrist watch and a 100% crop.
I think the A in INCABLOC is close to be in 100% focus. DOF is very limited.
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What I like is that I don't see any "out-of-focus" CA.
Don't think I have many lenses that are better corrected than this one.
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Lovely to see the construction work you did Meper and the results of this.
I guess the lens is working in the conditions for which it was designed.
I've never attempted such a setup and appreciate as much investment of effort is needed for the macro stages, plus stacking to get results like the beetle posted earlier.
I'd be interested to know what drew you towards this approach and whether this Minolta lens was especially singled out in what you read about, or if most scanner lenses would perform similarly?
I guess these slide/negative scanners probably sell cheaply nowadays so are a good source and may have been mentioned in other online articles
Now that I've looked through a bit more at https://www.closeuphotography.com I can see I've a lot to learn
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It was from "closeuphotography" I learned about the lens.
Seems the Dimage 5400 lens, ED 5000 and ED8000/ED9000 scanner lenses are on top.
I searched Ebay for these lenses and I the Minolta 5400 lens, 2 x Nikkor ED5000 lenses and one ED9000 Nikkor lens.
Seems these three lenses are the top of the top when compared with other scanner lenses or "general purpose" lenses like the Canon MP 65 lens which he use as a reference.
I have all the parts to be able to make this setup for the ED9000 scanner lens:
https://www.closeuphotography.com/scanner-nikkor-ed-lens/2017/6/21/scanner-nikkor-ed-lens (https://www.closeuphotography.com/scanner-nikkor-ed-lens/2017/6/21/scanner-nikkor-ed-lens)
The lenses where quite cheap compared to the optical quality you get. I think prices may have raised a bit. The ED8000/ED9000 lens is a 14 element lens with a lot of ED-glass. Seems close in design to the printing Nikkor but scanner Nikkor much cheaper. I have an ED9000 scanner but don't want to pull the lens out as I use the scanner from time to time.
Now most know that ED8000/ED9000 scanners has a very nice lens but before then I think a non-working ED8000/9000 could be purchased cheap.
If you see one on Ebay as a reasonable price be sure that none has been inside the scanner to ensure the lens is still there :-)
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There is a link here for some technical info about the Scanner Nikkors:
http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/articolo%20Scanner%20Nikkor%20ED.pdf (http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/articolo%20Scanner%20Nikkor%20ED.pdf)
Not as much ED-glass than I initial thought and the small scanner Nikkor is from ED4000 scanner (not 5000 as I wrote). Probably confused with Minolta models.
But still very good optical corrected lenses. A shame my Italian is quite bad........
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There is a link here for some technical info about the Scanner Nikkors:
http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/articolo%20Scanner%20Nikkor%20ED.pdf (http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/articolo%20Scanner%20Nikkor%20ED.pdf)
Not as much ED-glass than I initial thought and the small scanner Nikkor is from ED4000 scanner (not 5000 as I wrote). Probably confused with Minolta models.
But still very good optical corrected lenses. A shame my Italian is quite bad........
Fortunately that PDF is with editable text, so you just copy/paste the part you want translated to Google Translate, and voilà you have your text in any language.
An example with the first paragraph of page 1 translated into English:
SCANNER-NIKKOR ED: THE NEW GENERATION OF OPTICS FOR 3rd MILLENNIUM NIKON SCANNERS
At the dawn of the new millennium, Nikon Corporation renewed the high-end of its film scanners by introducing two versions with very interesting features such as the Coolscan 4000 ED and Coolscan 8000 ED, intended respectively for scanning 24x36mm frames on 135 film and frames. up to 6x9cm on 120 roll, and both accredited with a real resolution of 4000 Dpi with A / D conversion at 14 bit / RGB channel and 16 bit / channel RGB output, really excellent credentials for the time; these data are well known to all enthusiasts and professionals, among whom the fame of the excellent scans allowed by these products spread rapidly; what few people know is that behind this new generation of scanners there was a considerable effort related to the development of a new generation of high resolution intermediate lenses that were able to easily copy the new, very high resolution of the scanners they were intended for, also guaranteeing an excellent correction of chromatic aberration in a wide range of the spectrum between the g-line and the s-line, i.e. between 438.5nm (threshold of the visible towards ultraviolet) and 852.1nm, abundantly in the infrared; this requirement was stringent in Nikon Coolscan because the acquisition used a triple matrix of RGB LEDs (red, green and blue) as a light source, for each of which the optics had to ensure identical sharpness and focus plane.
(Please note that Translate has a limit of 5000 characters per translation)
Ciao from Massimo
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Yes, thank you for this.....I had it in my mind to try Google translate.....
The technical stuff....with all the curves which shows how well the lenses are corrected for various "defects".....it could be interesting to have comments from some of the few people which actual understands these curves and numbers 100% to comment on how well corrected these lenses are. If no "defects" all curves would just be straight centered lines.....so how nice are these curves?
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A couple of more snapshots with Minolta Dimage 5400 lens.
One of a small part of an approx. 20 cm paint brush and another of the tip of a ball pen + a 100% crop.
Bokeh looks quite nice but at these rather large magnifications bokeh usually looks nice?
Again CA is well controlled. Often metallic reflections shows CA.
With the small DOF the sharpness has to be right so image looks like a sharp one even that most of image is out of focus. That is an interesting challenge (I have never done stacked images.....yet).
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What is the magnification here? These scanner lenses should not be pushed much above 1.5X. I set mine to the recommeded 1.33X.
Focus stacking is a mandatory approach if you want anything else than slices of sharpness and blur otherwise. Or restrict shooting to captures of flat subjects.
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The paint brush image is the whole frame (non-cropped) about 2 cm at the long edge.
It is a DX-sensor which is 24mm at the long edge so I guess the magnification is close to x1 or a little more than x1.
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You should fine-tune the setup to give an optinal magnification. It is worth noting that the scanner lenses are most suitable for DX/APS-C format.
The final point is whether one should reverse-mount the lens, or not. The dot marks the subject side, if memory is reliable. Anyway, it is easy to try both orientations and check what delivers the better result.
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The attached image of the ruler shows that it covers 18mm and DX-sensor is 24mm. Then magnification with current setup is 24/18 = x1.3 ?
The lens is secured with a set screw and lens can slide about 15mm in to shorten the distance with 15mm. This may be enough to tune the magnification to about x1.
To check if lens is better reversed I would need to setup the camera on my focus rail and then I need a test target that can show the difference in resolution. I may have a Kodak test target somewhere.......
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If I slide in the lens in the mount almost as much as possible I get this result.
It then covers 22mm and magnification is 24/22 = x1.1.
This should be close to what the lens was designed for.
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Here is my setup with the Nikon LS4000ED scanner lens. I have fine-tuned the magnification to be precisely 1.33X, which according to Robert O'Toole should be the designated ratio for this lens. The lens is held in a bespoke RAF clamp, which mounts via a 42-52mm step ring into a set of 2X K-5 rings and a K-2 at the rear. I also added a CPU to make EXIF data reliable. The lens reports itself as 46mm f/2.6. The cameras will round off to f/2.5 as they cannot show 1/6 stops, however EXIF is corrrect. In front there is an improvised lens shade from a reversed C/CS extension ring, which fits perfectly on the front of the scanner lens.
I intend to use this for macro photography with my Z cameras primarily. Has to wait until I've got rid of this Covid-19 misery, though. Now I'm grounded for better or worse.
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A quick demonstration that the scanner lens approach works ... A detail of an Alstroemeria Peruvian Lily at 1.33X. My hand-holding technique suffers badly from the current Covid-induced misery, so sharpness is suboptimal. Also, I'm grounded in Ruth's apartment since we both are in quarantine and thus I cannot get to my Stackshot gear.
Scanner lens 46mm f/2.6, Nikon Z fc
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It shows you get much value for the money. It seems current market price for the 7 element 4000 ED scanner lens is around 100 Euros.
The 5400 Minolta lens seems to perform good at x2 but reading further it seems x1.2 is also fine.
https://www.closeuphotography.com/minolta-dimage-scan-elite-5400-lens (https://www.closeuphotography.com/minolta-dimage-scan-elite-5400-lens)
For x2 I need more extension but for x1.1 to x1.3 my setup on DX-sensor is perfect using the conical RAF adapter.
The adapter you use with the set-screw for holding the Nikkor Scanner lens.......you don't see any "false light" coming in between lens and adapter if you hold it up against a light source?
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I paid much less for the scanner lens :) The RAF clamp may leak a little light, but a daub of black paint makes the leak disappear.
Magnification depends of course on the orientation of the lens. I can get < 1X by flipping the lens, but see no purpose as I have lots of other options going to 1X with good quality. On the other hand, high-quality 1.33X is perfect for many of my applications. From 1.7X and higher there are again other lens candidates available to me.
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I don't know the optical design of the Minolta lens if it is symmetrical or there is a big difference regarding orientation. Will try to reverse it some day......
A silicon wafer seems a good test target. Could be fun to get one for that purpose.
At Ebay it is difficult to get really good bargains when a product starts to get some "hype"......but before that happens it is possible.
When most people sell some stuff they make a search at ebay to check price level.
To get a defect scanner at the local market may be the best option to get a very cheap scanner lens.
It seems Covid here is fading out and the real flu slowly takes over.....
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Thanks for the update. This continues to be an intriguing area
My hand-holding technique suffers badly from the current Covid-induced misery...
Best wishes on your recovery Birna.
I tested positive for Covid last October and felt low for a week or so, but nothing too bad.
I think the vaccines helped my body fight it.
Meanwhile my son (who passed it to me) ran his fastest ever 5k on the day he tested positive - some people have all the luck!
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I'm still testing positive and the illness manifests itself in everything, including ability to take photographs or even think straight. Ruth is 3 days ahead of me and after nearly 2 weeks she isn't yet in the clear.
A silicone wafer is an excellent test subject, but do note there are aspects of 'macro' work it won't help with. You need to resort to stacking for example to find whether bad corners are due to the lens having insufficient coverage or there is excessive curvature of field. Also, unless you go well beyond 4X or so, many details are too small to be adequately resolved even by the best of lenses. The wafer will help in showing signs of setup instability or camera shutter-induced movement, though. Chromatic aberrations should be obvious, but do note the light source can add aberrations on its own as the structures on the wafer can act as micro prisms. So a narrowband source is preferable if it can be had.
Do remember to keep the silcone wafer stored with cardboard or similar to stiffen it and wrap it into plastic to keep dust away plus avoid scratching its surface, which is pretty delicate. I bought a wafer many years ago and it cost me next to nothing back then. No idea what the situation currently is.
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Praying for your and her speedy full recovery Birna!!