NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Lens Talk => Topic started by: Zang on January 26, 2022, 14:13:19
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Hi all,
Does anyone have experience using 55mm f2.8 AIS with an extension tube (10mm or 20mm). I plan using that setup on my APS-C to have 1:1 magnification for negative scanning. I would think an extension tube would compromise the CRC a bit but not sure how this thing works the reality.
Cheers,
Zang
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I have used this lens on a bellows and it worked fine.
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Something like this you want?
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/hands-on-review/the-franken-scanner-slide-and-negative-digitizer (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/hands-on-review/the-franken-scanner-slide-and-negative-digitizer)
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The Micro 55/2.8 Ais is designed to be used with an M2/PK-3 extension tube to reach 1:1. Like the 105/2.8 Micro, the added extension conflicts to some degree with the CRC, but stop down to f/11 and you should be fine. By the way, this is the same recommendation as Nikon had for the 105/2.8 AIS with the PN-11.
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Regardless of which extension tube is used, the AIS 55 f2.8 micro works best when focused all the way to the close focus position. In this way the optics are best configured for closeup photography. So, if you want 1:1 magnification, the PK-13 tube with 27.5mm extension is the best option. If you require slightly less magnification in the range between 1:2 and 1:1 then one of the shorter tubes is better, such as the PK-11 (8mm) or PK-12 (14mm).
On the other hand, if you need magnification just beyond 1:2 and use the PK-13 extension tube, the lens will need to be "focused" near infinity. In this setup the optics are configured for near-infinity shooting so performance will be less good (probably field curvature etc). In this situation it is better to use a shorter tube and focus the lens all the way out.
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Something like this you want?
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/hands-on-review/the-franken-scanner-slide-and-negative-digitizer (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/hands-on-review/the-franken-scanner-slide-and-negative-digitizer)
Thanks Meper. Good to know it worked for you. The film copier looks so cool! but I have crafted a DIY one which looks equally military :D
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The Micro 55/2.8 Ais is designed to be used with an M2/PK-3 extension tube to reach 1:1. Like the 105/2.8 Micro, the added extension conflicts to some degree with the CRC, but stop down to f/11 and you should be fine. By the way, this is the same recommendation as Nikon had for the 105/2.8 AIS with the PN-11.
Thanks Birna. I want to get 1:1 on APS-C so M2/PK-3 would be too long. I do feel a tube compromise the CRC but I hope the issue is not noticeable. I'll try it out and report back.
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Regardless of which extension tube is used, the AIS 55 f2.8 micro works best when focused all the way to the close focus position. In this way the optics are best configured for closeup photography. So, if you want 1:1 magnification, the PK-13 tube with 27.5mm extension is the best option. If you require slightly less magnification in the range between 1:2 and 1:1 then one of the shorter tubes is better, such as the PK-11 (8mm) or PK-12 (14mm).
On the other hand, if you need magnification just beyond 1:2 and use the PK-13 extension tube, the lens will need to be "focused" near infinity. In this setup the optics are configured for near-infinity shooting so performance will be less good (probably field curvature etc). In this situation it is better to use a shorter tube and focus the lens all the way out.
Thanks Roland. PK-13 is so rare today. Besides, I want 1:1 on APS-C, so I bought a 3rd party set of 13/20/36. I think 13 would work and I will remember your advice regarding closest distance focusing.
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Nikon also makes a dedicated attachment for the camera:
https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/miscellaneous/es-2-film-digitizing-adapter-set.html (https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/miscellaneous/es-2-film-digitizing-adapter-set.html)
There are other brands which works similar and are probably cheaper but now you have built your own :-)
From memory I just used the 55/2.8 set to infinity on bellows and did not think about the CRC.
It should be easy to test which settings gets the best results. F/11 seems to be a good aperture to use.
Is it mounted slides? .....probably the raw film gives best results if you can keep it 100% flat. AN glass frames are probably not the best to "scan" from.
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A bit more info here about digitizing:
https://www.throughthefmount.com/articles_tips_digitise.html (https://www.throughthefmount.com/articles_tips_digitise.html)
A 55/3.5 is used. It is mentioned that using a camera gives a bit softer corners that when a dedicated scanner is used.
Maybe an advantage to use a DX sensor to use the best part of the lens and also utilize CRC when using a 55/2.8 for best flat field performance.
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The Micro 55/2.8 Ais is designed to be used with an M2/PK-3 extension tube to reach 1:1. Like the 105/2.8 Micro, the added extension conflicts to some degree with the CRC, but stop down to f/11 and you should be fine. By the way, this is the same recommendation as Nikon had for the 105/2.8 AIS with the PN-11.
Using the shortest extension tube (or set of tubes) needed for a particular image ratio will keep the CRC as close to the near position as possible rather than the infinity position. For example with a 55/2.8 AIS Micro use a PK-11a then a PK-12 followed by a PK-11a & PK-12 combined before using a PK-13. If one will be stopping down to f/11 anyway this may not be necessary but if you want to shoot at f/5.6 or f/8.0 it may be a useful strategy.
Dave
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Regardless of which extension tube is used, the AIS 55 f2.8 micro works best when focused all the way to the close focus position. In this way the optics are best configured for closeup photography. So, if you want 1:1 magnification, the PK-13 tube with 27.5mm extension is the best option. If you require slightly less magnification in the range between 1:2 and 1:1 then one of the shorter tubes is better, such as the PK-11 (8mm) or PK-12 (14mm).
On the other hand, if you need magnification just beyond 1:2 and use the PK-13 extension tube, the lens will need to be "focused" near infinity. In this setup the optics are configured for near-infinity shooting so performance will be less good (probably field curvature etc). In this situation it is better to use a shorter tube and focus the lens all the way out.
This is very useful information. Is it available online anywhere? (Apart from your reply!)
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This is very useful information. Is it available online anywhere? (Apart from your reply!)
Check Roland Vink's post above mine. He gave the same information just before I did.
Dave
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If your Micro Nikkor is CPU chipped you might need this little modification to retain contact between camera and lens 8)
https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=4544.0
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A bit more info here about digitizing:
https://www.throughthefmount.com/articles_tips_digitise.html (https://www.throughthefmount.com/articles_tips_digitise.html)
A 55/3.5 is used. It is mentioned that using a camera gives a bit softer corners that when a dedicated scanner is used.
Maybe an advantage to use a DX sensor to use the best part of the lens and also utilize CRC when using a 55/2.8 for best flat field performance.
Hey Meper. Thanks for the links. Yes, I copy raw negative, not slides. I do have full frame camera plus 1:1 100mm Contax Zeiss lens but that set-up is bulky and heavy. I think APS-C is enough to get the best result from negatives. I got the rings and as predicted, APS-C plus 10mm ring give me exactly 1:1!
Here is my DIY copier:
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If your Micro Nikkor is CPU chipped you might need this little modification to retain contact between camera and lens 8)
https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=4544.0
Hi Erik, the rings I got, though they look pretty cheap, they do have electrical contacts :)
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The rings I got have screw drive autofocus relay but it is so cheaply made that the screw makes unmounting the lens so difficult. I just took the ring apart and removed the relay.
At f11, the image is razor sharp even with the additional ring.
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Hi Zang. What Make and model is your ring light in this setup please? TIA.
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Hi Zang. What Make and model is your ring light in this setup please? TIA.
Hi Hugh, this is Neewer RF550.
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It is very inexpensive and I even bought it cheaper from a widow who bought this for her husband but he passed away right after. I did not know the story before but she told me when we had a quick chat through my car window on the street where she handed me the light. It was brand new with all the content. Quite a heart breaking story and all I could say was I will make good use of it. And I do :)
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Hi Zang, thanks for the information and the story behind the light.
Nice the way you have set up the camera and equipment. I have a similar rig with a wooden base for my bellows.
It is very inexpensive and I even bought it cheaper from a widow who bought this for her husband but he passed away right after. I did not know the story before but she told me when we had a quick chat through my car window on the street where she handed me the light. It was brand new with all the content. Quite a heart breaking story and all I could say was I will make good use of it. And I do :)
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Hi Zang, thanks for the information and the story behind the light.
Nice the way you have set up the camera and equipment. I have a similar rig with a wooden base for my bellows.
You are very welcome Hugh. I tried different way of lighting and using a ring light on a white background gives me the most even illuminating. Another challenge was to make the negative holder and I also tried different things before I got an used metal holder that came from an enlarger.
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I can't now remember where I've mentioned this, so apologies if it's redundant, but one of the ring flashes that shows up from time to time is the old Lester Dine "auto macro light" which includes a ring light, usually defaulting to 52 mm. filter thread. The controls are somewhat limited because it was intended for use with a specific lens (the Dine 105 I think, which I think was a Yuzo lens). But if you peel off the overlay on the back, it reveals the controls for a Yuzo YU 20 flash, with several added features for general auto use that were masked off, making it a bit more flexible. These show up pretty cheaply at times, and work well. Since the various TTL options won't likely work now anyway, they're all the same for manual and auto use.
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Matt, I think what you mentioned about is a true flash when mine is a LED light which has both flash and continuous modes. For negative work, I prefer the continuous lighting.
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Thanks Birna. I want to get 1:1 on APS-C so M2/PK-3 would be too long. I do feel a tube compromise the CRC but I hope the issue is not noticeable. I'll try it out and report back.
Yes and no: you need 27.5mm of extension to achieve a 1:1 image ratio with a 55/2.8 Micro Nikkor regardless of the camera format. However 1:1 will pick out a central portion of a 24x36mm negative when cropped to APS-C so you need less extension to copy the full area of the negative. I found I could not use my PB-4 bellows 35mm slide and negative copy setup because the minimum extension was too long. The PB-4 bellows and copy accessories were designed for the 24x36mm format. This was not a surprise but I tried it anyway. :)
Dave
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Another way of lighting a slide or negative is to fire two small speedlights against the white side of a gray card or just pure white matte board, one on each side at approximately a 45 degree angle. Speedlights that can be controlled in the camera menu with 1/10 stop increments would be quite useful. Another approach is to use a diffusion color dichroic head for an enlarger and a copy stand. The dichroic head allows for control of the "filter pack" for copying color negatives.
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Yes and no: you need 27.5mm of extension to achieve a 1:1 image ratio with a 55/2.8 Micro Nikkor regardless of the camera format. However 1:1 will pick out a central portion of a 24x36mm negative when cropped to APS-C so you need less extension to copy the full area of the negative. I found I could not use my PB-4 bellows 35mm slide and negative copy setup because the minimum extension was too long. The PB-4 bellows and copy accessories were designed for the 24x36mm format. This was not a surprise but I tried it anyway. :)
Dave
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Another way of lighting a slide or negative is to fire two small speedlights against the white side of a gray card or just pure white matte board, one on each side at approximately a 45 degree angle. Speedlights that can be controlled in the camera menu with 1/10 stop increments would be quite useful. Another approach is to use a diffusion color dichroic head for an enlarger and a copy stand. The dichroic head allows for control of the "filter pack" for copying color negatives.
Hi Dave,
You are right, I keep forgetting about the truth about 1:1 :) What I meant was I need 35mm negative area to cover my APS-C sensor, exactly like you mentioned :)
Regarding the flash, I saw setups using two small flashes and I like that approach. The issue was I could not find those flashes. I tried one flash with different home made diffusors/reflectors but I did not like the results. I wish the LED was a bit more powerful, but with its max power and ISO 250, the results are excellent.
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It is a shame not to use the native ISO settings for the camera to achieve the best possible results?
I think most just use their TTL-flash via a TTL-cable from camera hot-shoe (like Nikon SC-17 cable)?
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Matt, I think what you mentioned about is a true flash when mine is a LED light which has both flash and continuous modes. For negative work, I prefer the continuous lighting.
Irealize this and would prefer that if I used the thing enough to pay for it, but thought it might be useful to know about the old Dine flash because they seem to show up pretty cheaply at times, and people might not realize that some features were disabled just by masking them off.
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It is a shame not to use the native ISO settings for the camera to achieve the best possible results?
I think most just use their TTL-flash via a TTL-cable from camera hot-shoe (like Nikon SC-17 cable)?
You are mostly right. The reason I used ISO 250 is with mechanical shutter I do not trust the low speeds to much. I am now using Sony Nex 6, but I do have a flash meter so it would not be a problem using a flash. However, with one flash, having an even background lighting is pretty challenging.
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Irealize this and would prefer that if I used the thing enough to pay for it, but thought it might be useful to know about the old Dine flash because they seem to show up pretty cheaply at times, and people might not realize that some features were disabled just by masking them off.
Yeah, I head about Dine branch the first time from you. I do not think it is available in Canada or I have not been here long enough. What you are telling about the features is really cool. Almost like those undocumented functions in programming languages that I used to love :) If I can get my hand on one of those flashes, I will remember to look for that for sure - Thank you :)
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I found this thread here in Nikongear using the ES-2:
https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=9405.0 (https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=9405.0)
It looks like a very simple setup which is easy to use with e.g. daylight.
Also easy to change slides. Even that I have a PB-6 with slide attachment I might get the ES-2 if I should digitize a lot of slides.
The PB-6 may give better options for crops. If flash is used as light then if flash has a diffuser I think even illumination will not be a problem.
I have never tried SC-17 cable on digital bodies but it works I guess.
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I have never tried SC-17 cable on digital bodies but it works I guess.
The Nikon SC-17 TTL cord simply passes all contacts on the camera hot shoe to a second hot shoe on the far end of the SC-17 cord. I'll add more when I'm able. I can say the SC-17 (replaced by the Nikon SC-28 and SC-29) works perfectly on both film and digital cameras. If memory serves me, three SC-17(s) can be used in series. I've straitened and also shortened SC-17 cords.
Dave
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There is no problem using the SC-17 even on modern cameras, except not all (earlier) models would allow TTL metering.
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Off the topic of film to digital copy...
The SC-17 is even compatible with the Nikon FM2n and will offer an in viewfinder ready light but since the FM2n does not offer Film TTL flash the flash will need to offer Manual Flash or Auto Flash (Auto Thyristor Flash). For example one might use a Nikon SB-15 or Nikon SB-800 with a Nikon FM2n in the appropriate modes. The SC-17 will even work with the Nikon F and F2 in manual and auto flash and the Nikon F3 in film TTL mode when using the appropriate adapters.
For more information on compatibility one might try...
https://mir.com.my/rb/photography/
Dave
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I remember that the SC-17 was an expensive cable. Especially if you were a student. I can see now that the price level of SC-28 is relative high so better to get a SC-17 if it works.
The only Flash I have that works with iTTL is SB-400 and I was so happy with it that I got a spare.......
For more light output I use a SB-28 or SB-80DX. Either in "computer mode" or M-mode (1/1, 1/2, 1/4 etc.....). With digital cameras it is easy to adjust the light.
I got the SB-80DX cheap when it was outdated but liked the metal shoe and "quick release system".
With a TTL cable and a cheap SB-80DX or similar in M mode it should be possible to find a setting and a distance that works with a slide copy setup I guess?
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I have the SB-80DX which my wife got originally for her F100, and also an SB-24, and a whole collection of connectors. The DB-80DX is very versatile, and includes a remote trigger, but it has few buttons for its functions, and takes getting used to. You can't adjust the ISO once it's turned on, so have to turn it off and on again for that. The SB-24 has fewer features and fewer low power functions, but works well and you don't need instructions to remember what button to push. I like, also, that I got mine for $2 at a junk sale, which seemed a bargain too good to pass up.
Among my random assortment of cords are a couple of ten foot multi-flash cables, which make for interesting effects at times, allowing (with intervening bits) up to 20 feet between flash and camera, and allowing one to illuminate a single distant object or place.
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I found this thread here in Nikongear using the ES-2:
https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=9405.0 (https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=9405.0)
It looks like a very simple setup which is easy to use with e.g. daylight.
Also easy to change slides. Even that I have a PB-6 with slide attachment I might get the ES-2 if I should digitize a lot of slides.
The PB-6 may give better options for crops. If flash is used as light then if flash has a diffuser I think even illumination will not be a problem.
I have never tried SC-17 cable on digital bodies but it works I guess.
This is a nice and simple copier, but it would set me back by $200 plus taxes :)
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It looks like a very simple setup which is easy to use with e.g. daylight.
Keep in mind that the color temperature of daylight changes all day long. The color temperature of flash not so much. If using daylight it might be best use use mid day sunlight.
Dave
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Keep in mind that the color temperature of daylight changes all day long. The color temperature of flash not so much. If using daylight it might be best use use mid day sunlight.
Dave
You are lucky to have diverse day light. We have grayish light all day long here LOL. But seriously, you are correct. Another benefit of the on-lens copier is, one would save time on leveling the camera unlike with the separate holder design.