Author Topic: REDUX: THE HORNS OF THE STACKING DILEMMA  (Read 4013 times)

Michael Erlewine

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REDUX: THE HORNS OF THE STACKING DILEMMA
« on: July 27, 2015, 16:47:11 »
This is a perennial topic for me, so feel free to ignore this post, measuring the value of single-shot photos against the merits (and lack of merit) in focus-stacking. As I have written many times, this became much more complicated for me with the advent of the Zeiss Otus series because I am tempted to take just one shot instead of a long focus-stack and all the retouching involved.

In focus stacking, the perfect-storm (negatively or worst-case speaking) is something like the Queen Anne’s Lace, where there are layer on layer of fine bristles. Stacking software is really not designed for this kind of challenge, and is much happier with simple un-layered objects.

After buying and trying all of the stacking software I am aware of, I settled on Zerene Stacker for a number of reasons, the retouching aspects being better IMO than the competition, plus they have what I understand is a unique method of handling bristles and similar hairy and spiny matter called PMax.

Any stacking software is challenged by fine filigree-like bristling stuff as well as by any spherical or rounded materials. In this case I am addressing the bristle-aspect and the Queen Anne’s Lace. Few plants are as naturally photogenic and offer so many interesting aspects as the various lacy plants, but how to approach capturing them?

This ever-present dilemma pits a one-shot photo (with perhaps not enough depth-of-field) against a carefully stacked imaged where the levels of layers produce overlaps that are (for-the-most –part) not retouch able. I give several examples here, all of which were shot with the Nikon D810 and the Zeiss Otus 85mm f/1.4 APO lens with 8mm of added extension (Nikon K1 ring) at ISO 64 against a dark background. No attempt to pretty this up was made (or concern with color), as the focus here is on actual or apparent depth-of-field.

The first example is just a single shot taken at f/16. As you can see, even though f/16 gives us a lot of depth-of-field, the lower branches still suffer from not being in focus. Yet, it has none of the artifacts we find in stacked images.

The second example is a stacked imaged (46 layers) taken at f/1.4 carefully in an environment with no wind, etc. Because it is stacked, the interior of the plant has the sharp clarity of focus we find in focus stacking. However, if we look at the lower branches, there are all kinds of artifacts, most of which cannot be easily retouched. In a similar way, the outline of the top of the plant also shows artifacts.

The third example, something I have been playing with more, is an image taken at f/16 using three shots or layers and stacked. Each of these three layers focuses on a particular area of the flower. This avoids most of the artifacts in the stacked image, but preserves the interior area pretty well. Further, although I ran these three layers through Zerene Stacker, since they are separate areas, I can just overwrite each area of the image with the retouching brush entirely if I wish, knowing that that area is in focus.

So, what have I learned? Mostly I have relearned for the umpteenth time that there is no free lunch. I like the 3-layer stacked photo best, EXCEPT (if we could see it) there is no bokeh, of course. I like bokeh, and of course stacking at f/1.4 gives me that, except for the nasty artifacts it produces.

Anyway, I have relearned the obvious. If anything, I might use the Zeiss Otus 85mm (or the Zeiss 135 APO) lens with single shots because they are telephotos and probably will give me something like bokeh for a background if I am careful.
MichaelErlewine.smugmug.com, Daily Blog at https://www.facebook.com/MichaelErlewine. main site: SpiritGrooves.net, https://www.youtube.com/user/merlewine, Founder: MacroStop.com, All-Music Guide, All-Movie Guide, Classic Posters.com, Matrix Software, DharmaGrooves.com

Jan Anne

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Re: REDUX: THE HORNS OF THE STACKING DILEMMA
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2015, 18:05:07 »
And why not use apertures in the f/4 to f/8 range?

I do not understand why one wishes to use f/1.4 or f/16 for focus stacking, at 1.4 the lens isn't at it sharpest yet and at f/16 it will probably suffer from diffraction.

The middle aperture range should provide the best optical performance combined with good enough boke.

Please be aware that I'm a complete stacking noob :)
Cheers,
Jan Anne

Michael Erlewine

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Re: REDUX: THE HORNS OF THE STACKING DILEMMA
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2015, 19:01:29 »
Of course, suit yourself. I just give the outside limits. I often shoot at other f/stops, and other low f/stops as well, like f/2.8, etc. With the Zeiss lenses, it is plenty sharp wide open and the bokeh wide open is wonderful. I experiment with all kinds of values, but I can't post all possible values here, so I just use the more extreme. Focus stacking works best if there is not too much distance from front to back, in particular if there are layers of lace, etc. Also, with spherical or rounded forms, the step-value for focusing must be very small, otherwise it shows easily, especially with spheres. The object changes too fast with each focus step.


I hesitate even to post on this topic since I have before and I'm sure it gets boring. My photography is always an experiment, never a solution. If I could solve this particular equation, I would be a happy guy. The advent of the Zeiss Otus series of lenses just urges me on, gives me still more variables. For me, photography is all about the process. The process is the result. It is a state of mind.
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Akira

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Re: REDUX: THE HORNS OF THE STACKING DILEMMA
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2015, 19:35:07 »
Michael, this is just a vague idea:

If I remember correctly, you own Nikkor-O 55/1.2 a.k.a. CRT-Nikkor.  It is designed to have a negative field curvature.  Wouldn't that help shooting spherical object like this?
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: REDUX: THE HORNS OF THE STACKING DILEMMA
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2015, 20:12:39 »
Akira: Try it, but it does not sound like a solution to me.  :)
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Akira

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Re: REDUX: THE HORNS OF THE STACKING DILEMMA
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2015, 20:16:46 »
Akira: Try it, but it does not sound like a solution to me.  :)

Well. I would rather stick to the single shots.  ;)  I still love the rendering character of the lens.
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HCS

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Re: REDUX: THE HORNS OF THE STACKING DILEMMA
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2015, 20:45:11 »
Michael, what i do sometimes to obtain (or rather, get back) background smoothness (sometimes bokeh, depends) is to merge back one of the shots from the original scene for the background only.

I also tend to find the stacked bg ugly many a time.

Of course, since you're so far ahead of me in the stacking experience (or process, as you call it) it's not even measured in miles anymore, i'm not sure you haven't thought of this already.
Hans Cremers

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Re: REDUX: THE HORNS OF THE STACKING DILEMMA
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2015, 21:23:17 »
That is why I like to use lenses wide-open. Here is a shot with not much bristly stuff, wide open that gives a decent bokeh. Zeiss Otus 85mm on the D810. Photo of an Echevaria species.
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HCS

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Re: REDUX: THE HORNS OF THE STACKING DILEMMA
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2015, 13:56:54 »
That is why I like to use lenses wide-open. ...

I get that, your shot shows that beautifully. But, i think that exacerbates the ghosting problem (at least for me). Have you tried to shoot the main subject at a more optimal aperture and shoot one shot at the correct enlargement with bokeh f-stop to merge in as bg later?

I haven't, but will later, pending weather and available flowers.
Hans Cremers

Michael Erlewine

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Re: REDUX: THE HORNS OF THE STACKING DILEMMA
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2015, 14:04:17 »
I have done that, shot a background bokeh photo to merge in later. However, often it is difficult to merge, but not impossible. Originally thought it would be pretty easy, but found out it could also be difficult. And I imagine I have some slight prejudice against it, for no good reason. Is is funny how we each have our ethics and at the same time there is no general agreement on things like that.
MichaelErlewine.smugmug.com, Daily Blog at https://www.facebook.com/MichaelErlewine. main site: SpiritGrooves.net, https://www.youtube.com/user/merlewine, Founder: MacroStop.com, All-Music Guide, All-Movie Guide, Classic Posters.com, Matrix Software, DharmaGrooves.com

HCS

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Re: REDUX: THE HORNS OF THE STACKING DILEMMA
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2015, 14:12:21 »
Thanks for that feedback Michael.

I didn't think it would be easy per se, but if you find it not easy, it must be hard for me (not being a PP guru in the slightest).
Hans Cremers

Nick Scavone

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Re: REDUX: THE HORNS OF THE STACKING DILEMMA
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2015, 03:16:22 »
Michael,

Your last photo is simply stunning.

Cheers,

Nick

bobfriedman

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Re: REDUX: THE HORNS OF THE STACKING DILEMMA
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2015, 03:24:23 »
you may try sub-stacking... for more refine retouching.. but if the cone of rays at the larger aperture obstructs part of the plant there is no way out but to reduce the aperture.... so jan anne's recommendation may help

as an example http://www.pbase.com/bobfriedman/image/160296947   notice the region just outside the pollen... there is no way to get that in focus without stopping down and the microscope objective i had did not contain an iris..
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Stephen T Symes

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Re: REDUX: THE HORNS OF THE STACKING DILEMMA
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2015, 04:06:39 »
I have really enjoyed this set of postings from the technical to these photos are absolutely wonderful, my question is what is the message you are attempting to convey to the viewer.
What I see is wonderful, and enjoyable and conveys a real feeling