Author Topic: Two useful Articles on the Nikon Z7  (Read 782 times)

chambeshi

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Two useful Articles on the Nikon Z7
« on: December 03, 2018, 16:31:35 »
Thom Hogan's review has just been published

http://www.sansmirror.com/cameras/camera-reviews/nikon-z-mirrorless-camera/nikon-z7-camera-review.html

Nasim Mansurov has compiled a list of suggested improvements and upgrades to the Z7 - firmware mainly but also hardwaro (as in the need for an improved FTZ adapter)

https://photographylife.com/nikon-z7-firmware-update-wishlist#comment-271769

Good to read that this article is heading on to Nikon
D850 Df, Z7 20 f4 AI 28 f2.8AIS 45 f2.8AIP 55mm 2.8AIS+60 f2.8G Micro 58 f1.4G 85 f1.4D 105 f2.5AIS 135 f2DC, 180 f2.8D, 200 f2G VRII 400 f2.8G VRII 300 f4E PF 500 f5.6E P, 18-35 G, 24-120 f4G, 24-85 f/3.5-4.5G ED 70-180 Micro f4-5.6D 70-200 f2.8E FL, Zeiss Distagons (15 f2.8 21 f2.8 25 f2)

gryphon1911

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Re: Two useful Articles on the Nikon Z7
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2018, 17:24:48 »
I'm not so much worried about the FTZ adapter as the free market will fix that.  Someone will make one with an aperture dial, I'm sure.

What I would have liked would be, at least setup like the Df, where you can set the aperture on the front dial to match the aperture on the lens.
I know that would be a non-issue if I would just chip my lenses...but I'm not that handy and the places on line that offer the service are way more expensive than I am willing to pay at the moment - plus I don't know how reliable/good they are.
Andrew Livelsberger

Nikon Z6/D500/D750/Df Shooter (Various lenses), Olympus PEN-F, EM5.2 (Various lenses), Ricoh GR II, Pentax Q7(various lenses)

Bent Hjarbo

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Re: Two useful Articles on the Nikon Z7
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2018, 20:48:03 »
Thanks for sharing, very long ;)
Interesting to here from the NG Z7/6 users if the agree.

ColinM

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Re: Two useful Articles on the Nikon Z7
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2018, 21:55:17 »
Very informative and (as Bent has observed) long & detailed.

But a terribly structured piece of writing. Just some section headings would help no end, but I expect Thom had a lot on his plate to produce this

Hugh_3170

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Re: Two useful Articles on the Nikon Z7
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2018, 04:48:17 »
Fuji,  and to a lesser extent Olympus, have been magnificent in respect of the additional functionality that they have added to their respective XT and OMD lines of mirrorless cameras.

Let us hope that Nikon might follow their lead and provide meaningful technology refreshment to the existing Z7/6 cameras in the months and years ahead and not just provide bug fixes as has tended to be the past pattern in respect of Nikon's DSLRs. 

If the reviews in the two links in the first post of this thread are to be believed, then Nikon certainly has produced the right platforms for this form of technology refresh (via firmware enabled ehancements) to be a practical proposition.
Hugh Gunn

Erik Lund

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Re: Two useful Articles on the Nikon Z7
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2018, 08:49:50 »
...
But a terribly structured piece of writing...


I can only agree, some of the worst seen in a long time, it's actually almost unreadable,,,


And the tone, it's condescending, it's like he is searching for flaws,,, and surprised to see so few,,,
Erik Lund

Birna Rørslett

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Re: Two useful Articles on the Nikon Z7
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2018, 10:38:29 »
Some reviewers always find flaws - lots of them - whilst others find nothing. The universal truth tends to be somewhere in between.

At this point I might add a flaw of the Z range myself. The XQD card will not clear its slot enough to be pulled out without risking  chipping one's nail paint, or even worse,  breaking long finger nails. Hogan didn't catch that 'flaw'. :D

John Geerts

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Re: Two useful Articles on the Nikon Z7
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2018, 11:00:44 »
But a terribly structured piece of writing. Just some section headings would help no end, but I expect Thom had a lot on his plate to produce this
That is not an excuse for an article on Internet which you can adapt (or rewrite) easily.

Jack Dahlgren

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Re: Two useful Articles on the Nikon Z7
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2018, 19:47:49 »
Some reviewers always find flaws - lots of them - whilst others find nothing. The universal truth tends to be somewhere in between.

At this point I might add a flaw of the Z range myself. The XQD card will not clear its slot enough to be pulled out without risking  chipping one's nail paint, or even worse,  breaking long finger nails. Hogan didn't catch that 'flaw'. :D

Birna,

Always good to see the other side of a problem. Though I've seen some with very long nails manage things that make me wonder how they did it. Practice I think...

CS

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Re: Two useful Articles on the Nikon Z7
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2018, 21:00:24 »
Some reviewers always find flaws - lots of them - whilst others find nothing. The universal truth tends to be somewhere in between.

At this point I might add a flaw of the Z range myself. The XQD card will not clear its slot enough to be pulled out without risking  chipping one's nail paint, or even worse,  breaking long finger nails. Hogan didn't catch that 'flaw'. :D

Well, Nikon ignores Thom Hogan, at least officially, and what I saw in his Z7 review was something of a sum up of his accumulated frustration with that relationship. Nikon "reached out" to various people of influence in the Nikon world, WRT the new Z models, and they chose to not to recognize Hogan as being worthy of that distinction. Please, I am not looking for a debate as to whether or not that decision was justified, just relating how the review struck me. This review had perhaps the most emotional content that I can recall as one who has been reading his articles for some time.

OTOH, readers of Hogan's reviews will see the same level of detail laid out that his writings have shown for a long time. No matter what side of the fence you sit on, I haven't seen anyone say he was incorrect with his facts, but he's no master of diplomacy, a point that apparently irritates Nikon, and allows them to treat him as a non-entity WRT Nikon products.


Anyway, JMO, others may see it differently.
Carl

Erik Lund

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Re: Two useful Articles on the Nikon Z7
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2018, 08:15:06 »
Moderation comment:

Please, let's stay with the content and Z7 - and not the person Tom Hogan.

Thank you! :)
Erik Lund

chambeshi

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Re: Two useful Articles on the Nikon Z7
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2018, 15:37:27 »
Well, Nikon ignores Thom Hogan, at least officially, and what I saw in his Z7 review was something of a sum up of his accumulated frustration with that relationship. Nikon "reached out" to various people of influence in the Nikon world, WRT the new Z models, and they chose to not to recognize Hogan as being worthy of that distinction. Please, I am not looking for a debate as to whether or not that decision was justified, just relating how the review struck me. This review had perhaps the most emotional content that I can recall as one who has been reading his articles for some time.

OTOH, readers of Hogan's reviews will see the same level of detail laid out that his writings have shown for a long time. No matter what side of the fence you sit on, I haven't seen anyone say he was incorrect with his facts, but he's no master of diplomacy, a point that apparently irritates Nikon, and allows them to treat him as a non-entity WRT Nikon products.


Anyway, JMO, others may see it differently.
I agree 100% with you. Nikon should be most grateful to Thom Hogan for all he does to inform the company about its clients and its clients about Nikon! The character / status of the reviewer does matter. Our commentary and discussion of this factor is integral in a thread evaluating the credibility of the review - civil discussion, obviously. [on the contrary, (and without going into boring reasons), there are solid reasons why nearly all youtube "reviewers" are best ignored, especially those with high profiles .] Some of us are grateful to Thom Hogan and a handful of other credible reviewers (Brad Hill, Steve Perry are others),  even if they vent frustrations.\

I concur with Hogan's criticisms of the Z7 (and urgency to improve key features).  Since its release, a common thread in reviews and at least 1 forum (DPR) is to propose many improvements to the Z7 camera. Many of these missing features are in the AF and customization options. While some of this may be criticism for its own sake, both Nasim Mansurov (Photography Life) and Thom Hogan share a genuine concern to see Nikon improve the camera and succeed. Moreover, to improve the Z System as a whole AND its compatibility with the F system. This is especially where Firmware fixes can resolve / fix missing features.

Moreover, the 2 reviews initiating this thread discuss the Nikon Z system in the context of Nikon's future and relationship with camera markets.... This future is a great concern for those of us invested in the Nikon System. So this thread is the place to discuss issues raised in both reviews... even better if relevant comments and criticism etc reach Nikon. The Z System arrives with the camera industry under challenges, if not in decline. And Nikon faces big challenges in Sony, Canon and other systems. There have been threads on NG discussing these matters in the past. Some readers might not be interested in this topic but they are free to ignore this debate.

Consider the collective status of the superb PF lenses; the other new F Nikkors – eg 105 f1.4E, 180-400 f5.6E TC; the excellent DSLRs – D850 and D500 especially, and the overall success of the Z cameras and the 3 new Z-Nikkors…. Then we have 60 years of the F-Mount – millions of decent lenses, mich so often feature here on NG. Together, these suggest Nikon is in a good state. But the future points to surprises and threats, where the launch of the Z7 in Thailand is instructive.  Nikon spelled out its aim to sell the Z cameras to younger photographers. This market will not take Nikon seriously unless they change their support strategy. [see https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/10/01/business/corporate-business/nikon-targets-younger-net-savvy-thais-new-high-end-cameras/#.XAPrJ2gzaM9). One comment stands out in this article - "….”According to our survey, people perceived Nikon as a brand for a very skilled 40-year-old man who is difficult to communicate with,” Veera Chalieopiyasakun-kun, general manager of the sales and marketing division at Nikon Sales (Thailand), told reporters." Thus, whilst it’s great to learn cohorts of older/established customers are buying the Z7 and Z6, as well as D850s etc; it is these younger customers who should be investing in the Nikon system. Their decisions will grow the company....or Not.
Stating the obvious, Nikon’s long-term clients of the Z System are younger / emerging photographers. Here, the strategy of iterative firmware updates by companies such as Fujifilm and Olympus has key lessons. Younger clients will go elsewhere if Nikon does not roll out a strategy of iterative software updates etc. This needs the tactics of a software-based computer company as much as expertise in R&D and precision manufacturing of optics and cameras i.e. get seriously "Web-Savvy". The excellence of the EXPEED processors (to our benefit) also underscores how Nikon is also succeeding so very well with their solid state hardware  ;D

This brings us back to the subject of constructive criticism and feedback. At the Z Launch in August, and since, Nikon’s Executives could not have been more explicit. “Our goal is to become number one in the full-frame market for both mirrorless and DSLRs.” The reality is Nikon has little, if any, option but to listen and respond – to requests and, yes, fierce criticism if it's correct. Customers can be expected to invest in the camera company, which places Listen & Respond tactics at the core of its strategy of marketing and support.
D850 Df, Z7 20 f4 AI 28 f2.8AIS 45 f2.8AIP 55mm 2.8AIS+60 f2.8G Micro 58 f1.4G 85 f1.4D 105 f2.5AIS 135 f2DC, 180 f2.8D, 200 f2G VRII 400 f2.8G VRII 300 f4E PF 500 f5.6E P, 18-35 G, 24-120 f4G, 24-85 f/3.5-4.5G ED 70-180 Micro f4-5.6D 70-200 f2.8E FL, Zeiss Distagons (15 f2.8 21 f2.8 25 f2)

CS

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Re: Two useful Articles on the Nikon Z7
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2018, 17:50:04 »
I agree 100% with you. Nikon should be most grateful to Thom Hogan for all he does to inform the company about its clients and its clients about Nikon! The character / status of the reviewer does matter. Our commentary and discussion of this factor is integral in a thread evaluating the credibility of the review - civil discussion, obviously. [on the contrary, (and without going into boring reasons), there are solid reasons why nearly all youtube "reviewers" are best ignored, especially those with high profiles .] Some of us are grateful to Thom Hogan and a handful of other credible reviewers (Brad Hill, Steve Perry are others),  even if they vent frustrations.\

I concur with Hogan's criticisms of the Z7 (and urgency to improve key features).  Since its release, a common thread in reviews and at least 1 forum (DPR) is to propose many improvements to the Z7 camera. Many of these missing features are in the AF and customization options. While some of this may be criticism for its own sake, both Nasim Mansurov (Photography Life) and Thom Hogan share a genuine concern to see Nikon improve the camera and succeed. Moreover, to improve the Z System as a whole AND its compatibility with the F system. This is especially where Firmware fixes can resolve / fix missing features.

Moreover, the 2 reviews initiating this thread discuss the Nikon Z system in the context of Nikon's future and relationship with camera markets.... This future is a great concern for those of us invested in the Nikon System. So this thread is the place to discuss issues raised in both reviews... even better if relevant comments and criticism etc reach Nikon. The Z System arrives with the camera industry under challenges, if not in decline. And Nikon faces big challenges in Sony, Canon and other systems. There have been threads on NG discussing these matters in the past. Some readers might not be interested in this topic but they are free to ignore this debate.

Consider the collective status of the superb PF lenses; the other new F Nikkors – eg 105 f1.4E, 180-400 f5.6E TC; the excellent DSLRs – D850 and D500 especially, and the overall success of the Z cameras and the 3 new Z-Nikkors…. Then we have 60 years of the F-Mount – millions of decent lenses, mich so often feature here on NG. Together, these suggest Nikon is in a good state. But the future points to surprises and threats, where the launch of the Z7 in Thailand is instructive.  Nikon spelled out its aim to sell the Z cameras to younger photographers. This market will not take Nikon seriously unless they change their support strategy. [see https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/10/01/business/corporate-business/nikon-targets-younger-net-savvy-thais-new-high-end-cameras/#.XAPrJ2gzaM9). One comment stands out in this article - "….”According to our survey, people perceived Nikon as a brand for a very skilled 40-year-old man who is difficult to communicate with,” Veera Chalieopiyasakun-kun, general manager of the sales and marketing division at Nikon Sales (Thailand), told reporters." Thus, whilst it’s great to learn cohorts of older/established customers are buying the Z7 and Z6, as well as D850s etc; it is these younger customers who should be investing in the Nikon system. Their decisions will grow the company....or Not.
Stating the obvious, Nikon’s long-term clients of the Z System are younger / emerging photographers. Here, the strategy of iterative firmware updates by companies such as Fujifilm and Olympus has key lessons. Younger clients will go elsewhere if Nikon does not roll out a strategy of iterative software updates etc. This needs the tactics of a software-based computer company as much as expertise in R&D and precision manufacturing of optics and cameras i.e. get seriously "Web-Savvy". The excellence of the EXPEED processors (to our benefit) also underscores how Nikon is also succeeding so very well with their solid state hardware  ;D

This brings us back to the subject of constructive criticism and feedback. At the Z Launch in August, and since, Nikon’s Executives could not have been more explicit. “Our goal is to become number one in the full-frame market for both mirrorless and DSLRs.” The reality is Nikon has little, if any, option but to listen and respond – to requests and, yes, fierce criticism if it's correct. Customers can be expected to invest in the camera company, which places Listen & Respond tactics at the core of its strategy of marketing and support.

+1  :)
Carl

Ethan

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Re: Two useful Articles on the Nikon Z7
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2018, 09:56:25 »
I agree 100% with you. Nikon should be most grateful to Thom Hogan for all he does to inform the company about its clients and its clients about Nikon! The character / status of the reviewer does matter. Our commentary and discussion of this factor is integral in a thread evaluating the credibility of the review - civil discussion, obviously. [on the contrary, (and without going into boring reasons), there are solid reasons why nearly all youtube "reviewers" are best ignored, especially those with high profiles .] Some of us are grateful to Thom Hogan and a handful of other credible reviewers (Brad Hill, Steve Perry are others),  even if they vent frustrations.\

I concur with Hogan's criticisms of the Z7 (and urgency to improve key features).  Since its release, a common thread in reviews and at least 1 forum (DPR) is to propose many improvements to the Z7 camera. Many of these missing features are in the AF and customization options. While some of this may be criticism for its own sake, both Nasim Mansurov (Photography Life) and Thom Hogan share a genuine concern to see Nikon improve the camera and succeed. Moreover, to improve the Z System as a whole AND its compatibility with the F system. This is especially where Firmware fixes can resolve / fix missing features.

Moreover, the 2 reviews initiating this thread discuss the Nikon Z system in the context of Nikon's future and relationship with camera markets.... This future is a great concern for those of us invested in the Nikon System. So this thread is the place to discuss issues raised in both reviews... even better if relevant comments and criticism etc reach Nikon. The Z System arrives with the camera industry under challenges, if not in decline. And Nikon faces big challenges in Sony, Canon and other systems. There have been threads on NG discussing these matters in the past. Some readers might not be interested in this topic but they are free to ignore this debate.

Consider the collective status of the superb PF lenses; the other new F Nikkors – eg 105 f1.4E, 180-400 f5.6E TC; the excellent DSLRs – D850 and D500 especially, and the overall success of the Z cameras and the 3 new Z-Nikkors…. Then we have 60 years of the F-Mount – millions of decent lenses, mich so often feature here on NG. Together, these suggest Nikon is in a good state. But the future points to surprises and threats, where the launch of the Z7 in Thailand is instructive.  Nikon spelled out its aim to sell the Z cameras to younger photographers. This market will not take Nikon seriously unless they change their support strategy. [see https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/10/01/business/corporate-business/nikon-targets-younger-net-savvy-thais-new-high-end-cameras/#.XAPrJ2gzaM9). One comment stands out in this article - "….”According to our survey, people perceived Nikon as a brand for a very skilled 40-year-old man who is difficult to communicate with,” Veera Chalieopiyasakun-kun, general manager of the sales and marketing division at Nikon Sales (Thailand), told reporters." Thus, whilst it’s great to learn cohorts of older/established customers are buying the Z7 and Z6, as well as D850s etc; it is these younger customers who should be investing in the Nikon system. Their decisions will grow the company....or Not.
Stating the obvious, Nikon’s long-term clients of the Z System are younger / emerging photographers. Here, the strategy of iterative firmware updates by companies such as Fujifilm and Olympus has key lessons. Younger clients will go elsewhere if Nikon does not roll out a strategy of iterative software updates etc. This needs the tactics of a software-based computer company as much as expertise in R&D and precision manufacturing of optics and cameras i.e. get seriously "Web-Savvy". The excellence of the EXPEED processors (to our benefit) also underscores how Nikon is also succeeding so very well with their solid state hardware  ;D

This brings us back to the subject of constructive criticism and feedback. At the Z Launch in August, and since, Nikon’s Executives could not have been more explicit. “Our goal is to become number one in the full-frame market for both mirrorless and DSLRs.” The reality is Nikon has little, if any, option but to listen and respond – to requests and, yes, fierce criticism if it's correct. Customers can be expected to invest in the camera company, which places Listen & Respond tactics at the core of its strategy of marketing and support.

WoW. Just love the Internet Amplifier

1- Nikon has no business being grateful to Hogan or any other pay as you talk reviewer.

2- Toru Matsubara, president and managing director of Nikon Sales (Thailand) is referring to the Thai market and not the whole of Asia or the World. Please re-read the article.

3- Why do people assume that Nikon white, blue and grey collar staff are basically Morons?
- Do you really think that they are not capable of producing a state of the art camera with all the technological wizardry of 2018?
- Do you really think that they work in a closed bubble with no outside testing and cooperation?
- Do you really think they will cannibalize their successful DSLR range without undue brand profitability timeline?

Please use predicate logic when reading articles that deal with techno-subjective matters.

An example: Sony Alpha a7R III does have a larger buffer in comparison to the Nikon Z7. However, clearing the buffer is the bottle neck.
While the Sony R3 captures a larger number of images, the time to write and clear the buffer is it's downfall.
The difference with the Nikon Z7 is while the Nikon has a smaller buffer. the XQD card gives it the extra writing speed to overcome the large buffer of the Sony R3.
Add to that the Nikon Z7 with  the new card, the CFexpress with a write speed of 1gbs to 8gbs vs 400mbs for the XQD and 300mbs for the SD cards in the Sony.

Sony SD card write speed is max 300mbs, Nikon XQD write speed is max 400mbs and ready for the +1 gbs.
You won't find any such information with the alleged reviewers. It is a bit above their pay grade.

You do the math.


Same story for the eye focus and other unverified claims.....

No wonder Nikon cannot be bothered to address such accusations as it is non-Japanese to knock competitors.

But some of us who are non-reviewers can some time talk about it.

Nikon might not be the supra company in the world in terms of technology and marketing. but Morons, they are not!

Jack Dahlgren

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Re: Two useful Articles on the Nikon Z7
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2018, 16:46:09 »
So much text!

I’ve been in the design business for much of my life, and also spent years doing what is now called “change management” which is the process of making sure that changes (physical, operational, functional, procedural ...) are for the better and are understood and accepted by the people who are supposed to benefit from them.

As a result, I’ve met many mini-Thom’s and the sort of person similar to those on Internet forums who insist that the new thing is AFU and the designers must be idiots. Sometimes they are correct and there is a bug or a bad decision. Much of the time though, they don’t really understand the whole picture. They are unaware of constraints, don’t know what a roadmap is, don’t like change, or just haven’t thought all that hard about the problem.

Now I’m not saying Thom doesn’t think hard. He clearly works hard to sell his books and expertise, but often I find he whines about how NIKON DOESN’T LISTEN TO HIM, and if they did ...

So back to my work and to how any/all of us could hope to influence decisions Nikon makes, when I see someone who is pointing out bugs or helping to find a solution, I often engage with those people and help solve their problem. But when I see a chronic “you are an idiot, you should do this and that, Galen would have done it this way, are you listening to me?” type of person, I mentally mark them as “not helpful” and avoid them. Thom could be listened to and has a lot of experience, but he does not appear to be approaching it in a way that would make a camera company want to work with him.

It is always good for companies to listen to feedback. It is not always necessary to respond to all feedback. Nikon probably could go further with responding, but it is not an easy thing to do for a global company as the nature of interaction is very different in different cultures.  Being constructive and respectful in giving feedback is always better than being public, loud and disrespectful about it.

Thom’s most useful function is educating users. He is fairly good at it, and I’m sure Nikon appreciates that much more than his decrees on how they should plan a roadmap or handle ergonomic decisions.