Author Topic: Equalize output from different cameras under same condition  (Read 771 times)

jpgrahn

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Re: Equalize output from different cameras under same condition
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2018, 16:41:32 »
The last V3 image seems to perhaps lean towards magenta. The auto white balance on Nikon 1 and DSLR bodies can be tweaked under the WB menu item (on my AW1 I press right when the Auto WB is marked in the menu), both in the blue-yellow and green-magenta direction. (All of the last images were exposed with auto WB).   This setting needs to be used with caution as I do not think it is registered in the file, just affects the outcome of the WB measurement. It is easy to forget that one ever made a change or even that the WB tweaking option exists.

Importing images in LR with no adjustment during import gives me these numbers for WB and tint.
Camera: WB / Tint
V1: 5400 / -2
V3: 6600 / +77
D2Hs: 5300 / -8
D700: 5150 / -6
D800: 5400 / +2

V3 is still different from the others.
Řivind, are you saying I can change the WB setting in my V3 to make it come out more like my other cameras?
Johan Grahn

arthurking83

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Re: Equalize output from different cameras under same condition
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2018, 21:20:58 »
Also note that the lenses you use will create subtle (sometimes not so subtle) differences compared to each other .. unless you're using the exact same 5 lenses on each camera.

The difference in contrast between the tamron 24-70 cf Nikon 24/2 is huge! .. same with the differences between Nikon 50/1.2, Sigma 50/1.4 and Yongnuo 50/1.8 .. not the apertures .. just the colour and contrast rendering.

Have you tried using a preset WB for all cameras+lens systems .. instead of setting a manual WB setting?
Do you have a white/grey or even a black target you could set preset WB with?

eg. to repeat the daylight WB test, instead of setting daylight WB in camera, do a 'PreWB' in camera for each combination(camera/lens).

Only cameras I have to test with are D70s, D300 and D800E, and they all come up pretty close in output, in terms of colour once preset WB has been done.
Obviously they have differences in tone/contrast rendering .. can't be helped, but colour can be made close enough to not make a huge difference.

if you do this in daylight, obviously be sure that the lighting conditions remain close to the same(ie. no clouds passing overhead to spoil things .. etc.)

Once you've done this, then use your raw converter to determine what differences in actual WB values the cameras have chosen for their respective preset values.

ps. never had a Nikon1, but I assume they allow preset WB setting too?

Arthur

Řivind Třien

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Re: Equalize output from different cameras under same condition
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2018, 01:20:43 »
Importing images in LR with no adjustment during import gives me these numbers for WB and tint.
Camera: WB / Tint
V1: 5400 / -2
V3: 6600 / +77
D2Hs: 5300 / -8
D700: 5150 / -6
D800: 5400 / +2

V3 is still different from the others.
Řivind, are you saying I can change the WB setting in my V3 to make it come out more like my other cameras?

Yes, that should work, although I am not familiar with LR and to which degree it uses the Nikon generated data. At least it should work on JPG's and images processed with Nikon software.
Řivind Třien

jpgrahn

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Re: Equalize output from different cameras under same condition
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2018, 09:03:09 »
Yes, that should work, although I am not familiar with LR and to which degree it uses the Nikon generated data. At least it should work on JPG's and images processed with Nikon software.

Yes, LR takes into account the settings in the camera and I started to experiment with different settings yesterday. Will update with some examples.
My childish belief was that with a setting of white or black on the photo I would get the same whitebalance on to photos. This does not seem to be the case.
For instance V1 and V3 does not show the photo the same way. It doesn't help to enter the same Kevin temperatur and tint. Still different.

I will have to do more testing I guess. Yesterday I tried lots of different settings adjusting the automatic white balance on my V3. I believe it is the right way to go but it will require more testing for me.

My guess is that will not be a linear function. What I mean is that maybe I can get an almost perfect, good enough, setting for lets say daylight (which of course is the most useful one).
If the condition is different, indoor light, the same setting is probably doesn't work. The response to red light between different sensors must different.
But I will do more testing.
Tried to find something in the internet on this but no luck sofar.
Johan Grahn

jpgrahn

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Re: Equalize output from different cameras under same condition
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2018, 09:05:45 »
Also note that the lenses you use will create subtle (sometimes not so subtle) differences compared to each other .. unless you're using the exact same 5 lenses on each camera.

The difference in contrast between the tamron 24-70 cf Nikon 24/2 is huge! .. same with the differences between Nikon 50/1.2, Sigma 50/1.4 and Yongnuo 50/1.8 .. not the apertures .. just the colour and contrast rendering.

Have you tried using a preset WB for all cameras+lens systems .. instead of setting a manual WB setting?
Do you have a white/grey or even a black target you could set preset WB with?

eg. to repeat the daylight WB test, instead of setting daylight WB in camera, do a 'PreWB' in camera for each combination(camera/lens).

Only cameras I have to test with are D70s, D300 and D800E, and they all come up pretty close in output, in terms of colour once preset WB has been done.
Obviously they have differences in tone/contrast rendering .. can't be helped, but colour can be made close enough to not make a huge difference.

if you do this in daylight, obviously be sure that the lighting conditions remain close to the same(ie. no clouds passing overhead to spoil things .. etc.)

Once you've done this, then use your raw converter to determine what differences in actual WB values the cameras have chosen for their respective preset values.

ps. never had a Nikon1, but I assume they allow preset WB setting too?

Yes, all my cameras have settings to adjust white balance.
I know about the lenses. My experience is that Nikon lenses are pretty similar and I was not expecting to get exakt equivalent pictures. Just hoping to get them closer to each other.
Luckily the weather have been mostly cloudy recently. All my cameras showed fairly similar measurements except the V3.
Thanks for helping!
Johan Grahn

arthurking83

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Re: Equalize output from different cameras under same condition
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2018, 09:01:17 »
Yes, all my cameras have settings to adjust white balance.
....

Just to be 100% clear .. I wasn't referring to adjusting WB.
I was specifically pointing out the Preset WB feature, where you shoot each camera at a neutral target(grey or white both work), with the lens you want to 'equalise' the camera/lens combos with.
Once a Preset WB shot is taken, the camera loads that into memory area(it can store 4 or 5 options of Preset WB settings), but if you've never used WB Pre, then you will only have the one option which you just created.

Have to agree with others that the V3 seems to be wayyy off, but of course we don't know the specifics of how all images were captured either.
It'd be interesting to see the differences between the V1 and the V3 using Preset WB values .. using the same lens on both cameras.
Arthur

jpgrahn

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Re: Equalize output from different cameras under same condition
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2018, 09:30:52 »
Just to be 100% clear .. I wasn't referring to adjusting WB.
I was specifically pointing out the Preset WB feature, where you shoot each camera at a neutral target(grey or white both work), with the lens you want to 'equalise' the camera/lens combos with.
Once a Preset WB shot is taken, the camera loads that into memory area(it can store 4 or 5 options of Preset WB settings), but if you've never used WB Pre, then you will only have the one option which you just created.

Have to agree with others that the V3 seems to be wayyy off, but of course we don't know the specifics of how all images were captured either.
It'd be interesting to see the differences between the V1 and the V3 using Preset WB values .. using the same lens on both cameras.

OK, I will try that as well. Thanks.
Johan Grahn

Řivind Třien

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Re: Equalize output from different cameras under same condition
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2018, 11:28:27 »
Just so there should be no doubt, below is the WB tweaking screen I am talking about. This fine tweaking is available for each of the WB settings. Note that this is not a screen shot from a Nikon 1, but it looks similar.
Řivind Třien

jpgrahn

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Re: Equalize output from different cameras under same condition
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2018, 14:44:54 »
Just so there should be no doubt, below is the WB tweaking screen I am talking about. This fine tweaking is available for each of the WB settings. Note that this is not a screen shot from a Nikon 1, but it looks similar.

Yes, that is what I thought.
I have been experimenting with the settings a lot but not reached a conlusion yet.
Will let you know my "findings".

The replies from Nikon does not indicate that they have any useful information to share. If Nikon's support doesn't know, then who knows? Mayby NikonGear? :-)
Johan Grahn

jpgrahn

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Re: Equalize output from different cameras under same condition
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2018, 16:08:37 »
Preset WB. White balance set against card on top of Totoros head.
My greycard was not so big. New one is on order.
Here are the results.
Looks good now. Not such big differences anymore.
Johan Grahn

jpgrahn

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Re: Equalize output from different cameras under same condition
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2018, 16:11:46 »
Preset WB. I tried with white paper instead.
This time it becomes more yellow.
I think Totoros belly influenced the result.
But this time as well the results are similar between the camera bodies.
Johan Grahn

Jack Dahlgren

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Re: Equalize output from different cameras under same condition
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2018, 16:37:16 »
Preset WB. I tried with white paper instead.
This time it becomes more yellow.
I think Totoros belly influenced the result.
But this time as well the results are similar between the camera bodies.

For doing preset WB, fill the frame with gray card or white object oriented in the light same way as your subject. You can then use that white balance to shoot the whole scene.

arthurking83

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Re: Equalize output from different cameras under same condition
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2018, 23:15:36 »
For doing preset WB, fill the frame with gray card or white object oriented in the light same way as your subject. You can then use that white balance to shoot the whole scene.

Yeah, that's it.
First make an exposure of the neutral object, doesn't have to be in focus, but like JD said, fill the frame.
Just needs to be the same light conditions .. that is, don't take white paper or grey card inside to expose it.
If you're shooting on tripod, even better.
eg. hold paper in front of lens, make sure if sunlit day, then sunlight on paper too, if cloudy .. even better.
hold paper about an arms length from lens, shoot the PreWB exposure, then you're set.
Arthur

arthurking83

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Re: Equalize output from different cameras under same condition
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2018, 23:21:25 »
curious what software (raw conversion) you use too?
Only reason I ask is the anomaly with the exif in the D800 images.
It says 58mm lens, but then 87mm, 35mm equivalent!

The other question, not yet asked(again re software used) .. do you have whatever software to automatically set some image/camera related parameters?
eg. say in Lr, you may have a setting where it renders images from certain cameras in some pre defined preset?
Arthur

jpgrahn

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Re: Equalize output from different cameras under same condition
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2018, 09:45:32 »
Yeah, that's it.
First make an exposure of the neutral object, doesn't have to be in focus, but like JD said, fill the frame.
Just needs to be the same light conditions .. that is, don't take white paper or grey card inside to expose it.
If you're shooting on tripod, even better.
eg. hold paper in front of lens, make sure if sunlit day, then sunlight on paper too, if cloudy .. even better.
hold paper about an arms length from lens, shoot the PreWB exposure, then you're set.

That's what I did. At least tried to do.
Result is quite similar. Maybe as similar as it ever will get with such different sensor.
I am satisfied with this.
Next is to try to find a WB setting for the V3 that will compensate for the difference compared with my other bodies.
But already now I am much closer than at the start. Thanks to you and others on the forum.
Johan Grahn