Author Topic: NIKON: The Most-Used Camera of World Press Photo 2018  (Read 11515 times)

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: NIKON: The Most-Used Camera of World Press Photo 2018
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2018, 17:04:34 »
People don't see a really good photograph and think "I must buy the camera that did that" - otherwise everyone would be buying Hasselblad and Rolleiflex film cameras.

Well I do believe it is an influencing factor. People who are looking forward to making the best photos they can are certainly influenced by contest winners - if the work seems inspiring they'll note what gear was used and subconciously it may influence their future purchase decisions. Otherwise advertising cameras and lenses with work done by top photographers would be pointless.

JKoerner007

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Re: NIKON: The Most-Used Camera of World Press Photo 2018
« Reply #46 on: April 23, 2018, 06:14:51 »
First of all, Nikon is not in camera business, Nikon is -- like all big corporations -- in the money making business. The stock holders couldn't care less if Nikon sold little round rocks, as long as the yens keep on rolling in.

Rubbish.

You don't advance to the forefront of technology by not giving a damn about your product; you get there by an absolute passion and dedication to your product and calling.

Your incredible blunder in thinking is to lump Nikon (the business), Nikon (the engineers), and 'Nikon stockholders' in the same group.


In the big picture cameras like D4 or D5 are almost meaningless to Nikon in the financial sense. Probably neither of those never made a dime. Nonetheless they are important because they are halo products, and are crucial in marketing sense. (Google brand halo effect)

1) Pure speculation on your part. The truth is you have no idea if the D4/D5 have made Nikon money or not.

2) Even if you are right in the first postulate, and the second postulate, a "halo effect" of leadership at the top making money as a trickle-down = making money.

You call yourself a 'Cunning Linguist,' but do you even know the difference between a valid argument and a sound argument? (Hint: it's a pretty important difference.)

Google that ;)

Peter Forsell

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Re: NIKON: The Most-Used Camera of World Press Photo 2018
« Reply #47 on: April 23, 2018, 10:47:10 »
You don't advance to the forefront of technology by not giving a damn about your product; you get there by an absolute passion and dedication to your product and calling.

Yes, we are in agreement. Enthusiasm is essential for success. In the long run it is not enough, though. We have several examples in recent years from Japan and Korea where whole camera divisions have been axed. Enthusiasm gets you only so far, but if the money isn't there you're shut down.

1) Pure speculation on your part. The truth is you have no idea if the D4/D5 have made Nikon money or not.

2) Even if you are right in the first postulate, and the second postulate, a "halo effect" of leadership at the top making money as a trickle-down = making money.

1) Yes, we are in agreement. It is speculation and I have no knowledge of Nikon's internal accounting. I do have intimate knowledge of another field of very demanding industrial design and manufacture, and the brand halo effect is the norm. I even know of certain fields where the halo product is actually never meant to be sold, but sometimes a rich collector comes around and buys it for fun.

2) Yes, we are in agreement, and that's exactly what I meant. All sane high tech companies rely on trickle down strategy.


Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: NIKON: The Most-Used Camera of World Press Photo 2018
« Reply #48 on: April 23, 2018, 13:37:14 »
A last warning to the participants here: READ THE FORUM GUIDE LINES AND ABIDE BY THEM.

The personal attacks are poorly hidden and the Admins don't want anymore of this approach.

I have posted a warning twice in this thread and further irregularities will lead to either the thread being locked for input,  member(s) banned for 3 weeks, or both.

JKoerner007

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Re: NIKON: The Most-Used Camera of World Press Photo 2018
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2018, 01:56:08 »
Yes, we are in agreement. Enthusiasm is essential for success. In the long run it is not enough, though. We have several examples in recent years from Japan and Korea where whole camera divisions have been axed. Enthusiasm gets you only so far, but if the money isn't there you're shut down.

As a general principle, we agree.

However, other companies failing in the camera business doesn't mean Nikon is failing in the camera business. Most of the detailed data on Nikon's financial woes were its ties to its lithography business, which sandbags it cut off to be rid of them. Nikon's camera/lens business is, in fact, profitable. Like everyone else, Nikon's entry-level markets have been gobbled-up by smartphones, which is why they're concentrating on their mid-/high-end markets.

Speaking of failures, in point of fact Sony utterly failed in the DSLR business ... and so moved to mirrorless, where they are now succeeding.
Nikon has always been successful in the camera business, film and DSLR, sometimes the industry leader, sometimes #2, but Nikon is always in the forefront.

Regarding overall sales, Nikon has been in the 30th percentile overall, behind Canon in the 60th percentile, while Sony and the rest are floundering in the single-digits.
These same percentage breakdowns were similarly reflected in the previous World Press professional representations, in almost exactly the same ratio as the overall ratio.

Nikon's flipping these percentages ... achieving a 50-something percentage in the professional ranks, while Canon slipped down below the 30th percentile, IMO represents a critical shift to Nikon's favor ... that will likely translate to general user popularity. (There is a basic view that Canon has leveled to mediocrity, while Nikon continues to lead, which is pervasive ...)

As mentioned, the D850 continues to be "out of stock" ... while the Sony A7rIII (and any Canon DSLR) can always be purchased immediately ;)
In fact, the D850 has been the best-selling FF camera, since it came out, outselling both Canon and Sony counterparts ... and and there is no sign anywhere of a let-up.

It is not unreasonable to believe that Canon can lose its leadership role ... if this trend continues ... and Nikon can be the one to take over in the not-too-distant future.


1) Yes, we are in agreement. It is speculation and I have no knowledge of Nikon's internal accounting. I do have intimate knowledge of another field of very demanding industrial design and manufacture, and the brand halo effect is the norm. I even know of certain fields where the halo product is actually never meant to be sold, but sometimes a rich collector comes around and buys it for fun.

2) Yes, we are in agreement, and that's exactly what I meant. All sane high tech companies rely on trickle down strategy.

Cool, have a good one.

Peter Forsell

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Re: NIKON: The Most-Used Camera of World Press Photo 2018
« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2018, 08:13:05 »
... Nikon's flipping these percentages ... achieving a 50-something percentage in the professional ranks, while Canon slipped down below the 30th percentile, IMO represents a critical shift to Nikon's favor ...

All that is pure conjecture. It is possible that Nikon's market share is significantly higher than it has been in previous years and time will tell soon enough. You seem to base your guesstimates on the success of D850 but it has not had time to make an impact in the petapixel stats, as D850 is not yet in the top 15. Moreover, businesswise it is not good for Nikon not being able to satisfy the demand for D850 because buyers are forced to other options which may not be Nikon.

I admire your enthusiastic speculations, and Nikon would be thrilled if they have been able to increase their sales because the whole camera market is diminishing. The fact that Nikon lost its #2 position in DSLR lens sales and fell completely out of top 3 in 2017 in the japanese market points to a completely opposite direction of the press awards numbers, though. While that is an actual sales figure, we still cannot make any sensible assumptions regarding the world market, nor actual camera sales.

I wholeheartedly support your right to have an opinion and your right to build speculative scenarios. Those are fun to watch and the wilder the funnier. I also want to emphasize that I am not anti-you or anti-Nikon nor even anti-speculation, so don't feel that you are forced to defend your position. I will defend it for you! My bottom line is that a press awards ranking list consisting of 32 cameras is not the same as actual and factual world market sales numbers. In the end even the real numbers won't mean anything to me beyond the fun-to-watch aspect, since I have zero dollars in Nikon stocks.

I am not here to muzzle you, and I expect the same. We have a different opinion about the significance of the petapixel numbers and that's the end of it. Are the numbers interesting? Yes. Will they cure cancer? No. Don't take this as a challenge, since a public forum is not a place where you need to prove your manliness by word-wrestling others to submission, because that will never happen. If your conjectures will prove to be wrong, will I return here to gloat "I told you so"? No.

If the opposite, will you? The answer to that question proves your manliness.

Anyway, this thread has outlived its usefulness and interest. Photokina in September is what I'm looking forward to, along with quarterly sales figures. I have nothing further to add to this conversation.

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: NIKON: The Most-Used Camera of World Press Photo 2018
« Reply #51 on: April 24, 2018, 12:11:04 »
While I think Nikon have a strong DSLR product line, I don't think it's quite so simple to push Canon aside either in the professional or general consumer markets. Nikon is probably strongest in the enthusiast/semi-pro segment but they seem to be currently focusing resources into capturing the high end.

However, Canon have the strength that they've got a cinema camera lineup and lenses and they tend to be popular among those who want to do both stills and video. They have state of the art video autofocus technology (dual pixel AF). I think for many photojournalists video is a necessary feature if they want to  be paid. The compensation for still photography is said to be too low to make a living these days with all the free pics that the media companies are sent from readers etc.

JKoerner007

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Re: NIKON: The Most-Used Camera of World Press Photo 2018
« Reply #52 on: April 24, 2018, 18:56:43 »
All that is pure conjecture. It is possible that Nikon's market share is significantly higher than it has been in previous years and time will tell soon enough. You seem to base your guesstimates on the success of D850 but it has not had time to make an impact in the petapixel stats, as D850 is not yet in the top 15. Moreover, businesswise it is not good for Nikon not being able to satisfy the demand for D850 because buyers are forced to other options which may not be Nikon.

All of anything having to do with the future is conjecture. I hadn't realized speculating was speculating, but thanks for the eye-opening tip ::)

The original thrust of my thread was the fact that Nikon reversed yesteryear's trend for the World Press, with the positive speculation that this reversal could spill into other gains. Such speculation is not unreasonable.

The D850 is not in the top 15 ... what? Cameras as a whole? Maybe,
But what about FF cameras?
There isn't a FF camera out there right now that is in the kind of demand for it that the Nikon D850 is enjoying ;)

I based my speculation on quite a bit more than the D850. Nikon's success isn't just predicated on the D850: the D500/D750 sales have been excellent also, not to mention their lenses, but the D850 is the poster child right now.

I also disagree with your allegation any buyer is 'forced' into other options due to limited availability. (I know, I just finished waiting to purchase a D850.) The thought of buying a Sony (or a Canon) never entered my mind for a second because of the wait. I want what I want, and waiting a bit to get what I want is not a big deal ... and a whole lot better result than spending $3000+ dollars to get an 'alternative' I never really wanted in the first place ... just because it's 'available now' (by virtue of not being in demand). Waiting 2 weeks didn't kill me.


I admire your enthusiastic speculations, and Nikon would be thrilled if they have been able to increase their sales because the whole camera market is diminishing. The fact that Nikon lost its #2 position in DSLR lens sales and fell completely out of top 3 in 2017 in the japanese market points to a completely opposite direction of the press awards numbers, though. While that is an actual sales figure, we still cannot make any sensible assumptions regarding the world market, nor actual camera sales.

Show me the stats to support this claim.


I wholeheartedly support your right to have an opinion and your right to build speculative scenarios. Those are fun to watch and the wilder the funnier. I also want to emphasize that I am not anti-you or anti-Nikon nor even anti-speculation, so don't feel that you are forced to defend your position. I will defend it for you! My bottom line is that a press awards ranking list consisting of 32 cameras is not the same as actual and factual world market sales numbers. In the end even the real numbers won't mean anything to me beyond the fun-to-watch aspect, since I have zero dollars in Nikon stocks.

I wholeheartedly support your right to be arrogant and patronizing, made all the funnier by you're believing yourself to be in the position to do so.


I am not here to muzzle you, and I expect the same. We have a different opinion about the significance of the petapixel numbers and that's the end of it. Are the numbers interesting? Yes. Will they cure cancer? No. Don't take this as a challenge, since a public forum is not a place where you need to prove your manliness by word-wrestling others to submission, because that will never happen. If your conjectures will prove to be wrong, will I return here to gloat "I told you so"? No.

If the opposite, will you? The answer to that question proves your manliness.

For a self-proclaimed 'cunning linguist,'  your bait tactics are pretty transparent. (I won't get into your other play on words ;))

Suffice it to say that if you truly believe 'manliness' is predicated on whether 'to type on a computer' ... or not ... you need to get out more often ;D

In the end, my wish for Nikon's success has absolutely nothing to do with 'you' ...


Anyway, this thread has outlived its usefulness and interest. Photokina in September is what I'm looking forward to, along with quarterly sales figures. I have nothing further to add to this conversation.

Your responses have been anything but useful, just thinly-veiled attempts to insult, undermine, patronize, etc.

Our common ground lies in that we both are looking forward to seeing Nikon's sales figures.

However, we disagree that you have 'added' anything to this conversation; it's pretty clear your goal was to subtract from it.

Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: NIKON: The Most-Used Camera of World Press Photo 2018
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2018, 08:48:48 »
Enough is enough.

Consequences follow accordingly.

David H. Hartman

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Re: NIKON: The Most-Used Camera of World Press Photo 2018
« Reply #54 on: April 26, 2018, 01:51:46 »
Without those 32 'no data' entries, the results don't really help with any understanding of the market in any way.

...but what if those 32 "no data" entries were paranoid film SLR users? That would be significant!

Dave Hartman

...Alas we will never know.  :(

[Sorry: I thought some comic relief was needed. I didn't notice that there was a third page.]
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Jack Dahlgren

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Re: NIKON: The Most-Used Camera of World Press Photo 2018
« Reply #55 on: April 26, 2018, 03:00:45 »

[Sorry: I thought some comic relief was needed. I didn't notice that there was a third page.]
We can always use comic relief... which is relief from comics, right?  :)