Author Topic: Forced Back to the Nikon D810  (Read 9484 times)

Les Olson

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Re: Forced Back to the Nikon D810
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2018, 12:05:11 »
There at a lot of ways Nikon may send us a small program to eliminate this ring. But this action requires Nikon think about its customers, and it isn't a Nikon's first priority, to think about its own loyal customers. Ricoh, Fuji, Sony, even Canon, are thinking, but Nikon...

You mean a program like the one Canon does not provide to eliminate the blue ring in images from its 8-15 fisheye?  Or would it be more like the one Sigma does not provide to eliminate the blue ring from images made with its circular fisheyes?  Of course, Sony, Ricoh and Fuji are really thoughtful: they save you worrying about blue rings by not having circular fisheye lenses at all!

All circular fisheyes make blue rings. This is a lens property, because you also see it when the image is recorded on film.

Olivier

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Re: Forced Back to the Nikon D810
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2018, 13:49:23 »
For Fuji and probably other cameras as well you can get the Meike 6.5mm circular fisheye which actually doesn't generate a blue ring. You still need to apply a circular mask to eliminate the image of the inside of the lens, clearly visible on the photos... this is easily taken care of with a Photoshop automated action. I now have just one key to hit and am done with it.

Erik Lund

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Re: Forced Back to the Nikon D810
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2018, 14:09:01 »
It looks like maybe the Meike Fisheye has an build in mask to remove the troublesome edge,,,


As I recall, it is the optical design of the Nikkor fisheye lenses that features the blue fringe,,, as well as other brands.
Erik Lund

longzoom

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Re: Forced Back to the Nikon D810
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2018, 14:55:13 »
It looks like maybe the Meike Fisheye has an build in mask to remove the troublesome edge,,,


As I recall, it is the optical design of the Nikkor fisheye lenses that features the blue fringe,,, as well as other brands.
  I know that, Erik, thanks! What I really mean, is much wider, then, actually, little problem with that blue ring... I mean the terrible Nikon's warranty service, as well as post-warranty huge troubles. Even under warranty, I was not able to service my gears in Europe, for the reason it was from the USA, originally! Estimation for fixing was about $3000! So I was pushed to broke the warranty, by open 2 of my film and 1 digital bodies (different trips!), and some lenses. For ex., I've fixed my 80-200 with the parts from Russian tank's watch, when the inner sliding helicoid of this lens lost its bolts... So what I did really pay for, was a front element from my 16-35 (another event, my fault, I should have filter over it!), damaged by drunk idiot, cose this thing could not be covered by warranty, hah-hah! Best wishes, LZ!

Les Olson

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Jack Dahlgren

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Re: Forced Back to the Nikon D810
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2018, 16:32:37 »
The Meike generates a magenta ring - you can see it in many of the images in the Flickr group https://www.flickr.com/groups/meike_fisheye/pool/with/38507393410/ - eg https://www.flickr.com/photos/captkodak/35921838811/in/pool-meike_fisheye/ and https://www.flickr.com/photos/pmorris73/38398586184/in/pool-meike_fisheye/

I think it has mechanical vignetting which hides any color ring at the edge with black.

Les Olson

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Re: Forced Back to the Nikon D810
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2018, 10:18:59 »
Fisheye lenses are peculiar, and they are not all the same. 

Most are equidistant fisheyes, in which the image height is equal to focal length times the half angle of view in radians.  A circular fisheye lens has to have a very short focal length: 90 degrees in radians is 1.57, and 8 x 1.57 = 12.56, so an 8mm fisheye with a focal length of 8mm has an image size of 25.12mm - just about able to fit in a 36 x 24 frame.  Most Nikon fisheyes are equidistant fisheyes. 

A few fisheyes are orthoscopic: image height is equal to focal length times sin half angle of view, and sin 90 degrees  = 1.  The Nikon 10mm f/5.6 OP was an orthoscopic fisheye (OP is for Orthoscopic Projection), with an image circle just 20mm in diameter (http://imaging.nikon.com/history/story/0006/index.htm). If the orthoscopic condition is perfectly met, illumination across the image is uniform - which was the point of the Nikon lens because you can use the image to measure the illumination of large areas, a town square, eg, so you can work out how much shadowing there will be by adjacent buildings at different times of the day and year. 

Obviously, a focal length of 8mm or 10mm is a problem for an SLR. So SLR fisheyes have to be retrofocus - the 10/5.6 OP being an exception. The lens projects a long way inside the camera and it had to be used with the mirror up.  AFAIK the 10/5.6 OP is the only circular fisheye that does not have the colour fringe, so the retrofocus elements may be the villain of the piece.

Obviously, a mirrorless camera can have lens elements projecting into the camera, so a short focal length lens needs weaker or even no retrofocus elements compared to an SLR lens.  That may be why the Meike fisheye has less edge colour than ordinary SLR fisheyes. 

Stany Buyle

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Back to Nikon D810 + D500 after 6 months with D850
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2018, 15:54:53 »
Good afternoon!

Different than the OP and after 6 months with D850 I moved back to D810 + D500 because that combo pleases me more than D850 alone for several reasons.

summary:
Despite my initial D850' enthusiasm and after 6 months with D850 I sold it and went back to a new D810 + D500 set because ...
D850 vs  D810
-I missed the PUF-flash commander system of my D810
-The extra 9 MP(D850 vs D810) is not such a big difference.
-My D800 and D810 auto focused perfectly with my 105 AF-S + 2xTC while my D850 did not.
-Compared to D810, D850 is a rather loud operating DSLR again. Not as loud D800 or D700 used to be, but much louder than D810 and significantly louder than D500. Birds and animals don't like that, people in church neither.
-Slightly related to the above, vibrations due to mirror Slap and Shutter Shock -which are much more present in D850 than in D810-, might cause more blur than with D810 while shooting handheld. I found my D850 images to be less sharp than what I get handheld with my D810, especially at relative slow shutter speeds. The D810 lack of vibration rules out the resolution advantage D850 should have.
While shooting in LV, D850 excels though...
-I miss the D850 tilting screen and the AF stick with D810, but I have those on my D500...

D850 vs D500:
-I find D500 a much better wildlife camera than D850.
10fps in a light and relative compact camera and much more comfortable viewfinder for long distance shooting. (1.5 factor vs D850'DX mode)
-TMHO, IQ of the D500 is significantly better than D850 in dx mode.
-I did not like the extra weight and bulkyness of a D850 + grip to get 1 fps LESS   than the 10 fps that the relative compact and light D500 provides.
-I also find the D500 AF system with its wide AF point coverage MUCH better for fast BIF, insects in flight photography and overal action photography.

In Europe a new D810 + D500 is € 4500 while a D850 + grip and D5 battery + charger is € 5000.

Why I moved back from D850 to D810 + D500 in detail: From D850 back to D810 + D500 combo

Kindest regards,
Stany


JKoerner007

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Re: Back to Nikon D810 + D500 after 6 months with D850
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2018, 16:37:01 »
Good afternoon!

Different than the OP and after 6 months with D850 I moved back to D810 + D500 because that combo pleases me more than D850 alone for several reasons.

summary:
Despite my initial D850' enthusiasm and after 6 months with D850 I sold it and went back to a new D810 + D500 set because ...
D850 vs  D810
-I missed the PUF-flash commander system of my D810
-The extra 9 MP(D850 vs D810) is not such a big difference.
-My D800 and D810 auto focused perfectly with my 105 AF-S + 2xTC while my D850 did not.
-Compared to D810, D850 is a rather loud operating DSLR again. Not as loud D800 or D700 used to be, but much louder than D810 and significantly louder than D500. Birds and animals don't like that, people in church neither.
-Slightly related to the above, vibrations due to mirror Slap and Shutter Shock -which are much more present in D850 than in D810-, might cause more blur than with D810 while shooting handheld. I found my D850 images to be less sharp than what I get handheld with my D810, especially at relative slow shutter speeds. The D810 lack of vibration rules out the resolution advantage D850 should have.
While shooting in LV, D850 excels though...
-I miss the D850 tilting screen and the AF stick with D810, but I have those on my D500...

D850 vs D500:
-I find D500 a much better wildlife camera than D850.
10fps in a light and relative compact camera and much more comfortable viewfinder for long distance shooting. (1.5 factor vs D850'DX mode)
-TMHO, IQ of the D500 is significantly better than D850 in dx mode.
-I did not like the extra weight and bulkyness of a D850 + grip to get 1 fps LESS   than the 10 fps that the relative compact and light D500 provides.
-I also find the D500 AF system with its wide AF point coverage MUCH better for fast BIF, insects in flight photography and overal action photography.

In Europe a new D810 + D500 is € 4500 while a D850 + grip and D5 battery + charger is € 5000.

Why I moved back from D850 to D810 + D500 in detail: From D850 back to D810 + D500 combo

Kindest regards,
Stany

This is an interesting post for me, because this is the exact wildlife setup I have: D810 + D500.

The only issue I have regarding what you said is, can't you switch the D850 to not involve the mirror ... or is it just loud regardless? (IMO, the D500 is unpleasantly-loud, compared to the D810, so if the D850 is louder than that, I could see this being a problem.)

When all is said and done, I agree, the D500 is wonderful wildlife camera and hard to beat, for all the reasons you state.

While many look down their noses at the D500, comparing the DxO (and other) stats to the D850/D5 ... they forget that all of these graphs, charts, comparisons and such compare image quality "filling the frame" with each camera!

The truth is, in real life situations (with wildlife not at a 'petting zoo'), you RARELY can fill the frame with either a D850, or a D5 ... even with a 600mm lens.

The reality is, it is always easier to 'fill the frame' with the D500.
So, if you are not filling your frame with an FX camera ... you're coming up short ... and so (for wildlife photography) all the charts/graphs you see in lab tests on FF cameras mean nothing, because your final image is a fraction of your camera's capability.

Alongside this reality, most people are cropping-in a bit, even with the D500, so if you're using a FF camera means you're coming up way short, and your results still will not match what the D500 can pull off.

The D500's superior AF coverage is another excellent point people are quick to forget ...

Anyway, I know there are instances where the D850 is going to shine (when you can fill the frame in really nice light) ... as well as instances where the D5 is going to shine (when you can fill the frame in low light). However, overall, the D500 will always have an advantage in being able to fill the frame ... which, at the end of the day, means (for wildlife) it will trump the other two more often than not.

longzoom

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Re: Forced Back to the Nikon D810
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2018, 17:24:54 »
Stany- the D810 is not completely lacked of vibration, but true, indeed - it is less then D850 produced, in my experience. That is an Achilles point of weakness, almost for all Nikons, even great F3 was suffering severely at 1/45-1/90. The rest - agree without any reservations, with understanding all of it could be completely subjective from my side,  why not.  LZ

Michael Erlewine

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Re: Forced Back to the Nikon D810
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2018, 17:51:16 »
I will just remove it.
MichaelErlewine.smugmug.com, Daily Blog at https://www.facebook.com/MichaelErlewine. main site: SpiritGrooves.net, https://www.youtube.com/user/merlewine, Founder: MacroStop.com, All-Music Guide, All-Movie Guide, Classic Posters.com, Matrix Software, DharmaGrooves.com

BEZ

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Re: Forced Back to the Nikon D810
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2018, 18:12:12 »
I can't help but wish that posters actually knew the equipment they talk about. Am I missing something? I have taken many thousands of shots with the D850. My takeaway is that either folks don't know how to use the D850 or, worse, have never even laid a hand on one. It makes me want to give up such discussions altogether. It seems that threads no longer have any intention of staying on topic.

Michael,
Yes you are missing something  ......if you read Stany's post he explains in detail why he has a preference for the D810 over the D850. He owned both cameras and wrote a very helpful post regarding his experience with them.

Your response seems quite rude.

Stany,
Thank you for your detailed post, I found it very interesting reading.

Cheers
Bez

JKoerner007

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Re: Forced Back to the Nikon D810
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2018, 18:14:55 »
I have little idea what some of the posters here are talking about. The D850 can be completely silent, which is how I use it and does not have to use use the mirror at all, so there are no vibrations or sound that I am aware of. It has sped up my work by two or three times, at least.

'Your work' is not the criteria anymore; wildlife photography is.

The topic is actually, "Forced back to the D810," which you call a downgrade (for your type of shooting), but for Stany's type of shooting it's an upgrade.

You claim the D850 is completely silent (which I mentioned) ... but is that when shot regularly for action ... or is it in Live View only (which is what you do)?

Big difference.



I can't help but wish that posters actually knew the equipment they talk about. Am I missing something? I have taken many thousands of shots with the D850. My takeaway is that either folks don't know how to use the D850 or, worse, have never even laid a hand on one. It makes me want to give up such discussions altogether. It seems that threads no longer have any intention of staying on topic.

It's not just this forum, but is ubiquitous. Often it seems like posters are filibustering to avoid buying the D850. Sorry folks, but not every opinion is considered... IMO. LOL.

"Your work" is not everyone's work, Michael.

Stany offered another view on "going back to the D810," in favor of the elder camera, for different reasons from yours: wildlife/action photography.

You can clearly see him agree with your criteria, "While shooting in LV, D850 excels though...", which is pretty much what you do. So he's agreeing with you, and for that matter, so am I.
My interest in the D850, over the D810, is precisely for macro, because the D810 has a terrible LCD compared to either the D500 or D850 (Live View).

Therefore, it's not that we 'don't know what we're talking about,' it's that you aren't seeing the shift in criteria.

No one is disputing the D850's supremacy, in perfect light, when you can ensure Live View and filling the frame (which, again, is what you do). But not everyone is exclusive to this type of photography, as you are.

The disparity in favor other camera options comes with regard to action photography ... where you need speed, AF coverage, and reach ... placed in that environment, the D850 comes up short in every regard, and is longer the best option.

So, it is actually not a topic digression for others to discuss why, for other applications/criteria, the D810/D500 might be the preferred choices.

longzoom

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Re: Forced Back to the Nikon D810
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2018, 01:33:19 »
To Jkoerner - what you said in Michael address is true, but partially. His work is among the most interesting I've ever seen, but it is his job and his gears. He is a real MASTER in what he is doing. So is his point of view. Stany is liking completely different things in photography, so his job is forming his preferences. You are liking 300/4 new lens, for exmp., and you do show us your great images. But your lens is not for me, I am happy with my 80-400G, because it carries great convenience for my kind of interest, as well as higher quality thru the zoom!  So the 70mm macro is not "bad" for me, and I do not need 105mm macro, or anything else.  Be logical, please!  Thank you!  LZ

JKoerner007

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Re: Forced Back to the Nikon D810
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2018, 04:35:31 »
Hi LZ, here is my response:

To Jkoerner - what you said in Michael address is true, but partially.

What I said was completely true.

The D850 is not 'the' absolute best Nikon choice for every type of photography.

It is excellent at everything, unsurpassed in optimal light/maximal pixel applications, but a distant third amongst current offerings for fast-action/wildlife.



His work is among the most interesting I've ever seen, but it is his job and his gears. He is a real MASTER in what he is doing. So is his point of view.

Your opinion.

I respect (and like) Michael and his work ... a lot :)

However, with more than a decade's experience with macro myself, I can emphatically tell you that stacking images of flowers is not the most difficult macro work to implement. The difference seen in vibration movements at 1:2 are negligible compared to movements at much greater magnifications.Try doing a 50-image stack of a rose in your home ... you'll find it stays still and "behaves" the whole time. Then try doing a 50-image stack, at 4:1, of a live spider ... who may move a palp, a leg, or otherwise 're-adjust itself' ... over and above camera/other vibration at that magnification ... and you'll see just how subtle tiny movements can affect an image. Oh, and then try to do "after-stack touch-ups" on the hundreds of bristly hairs many arthropods possess ... that may 'mis-align' for mechanical reasons and/or in conjunction with their own subtle movements ... and report back to me that level of difficulty compared to touching-up smooth flower/leaf edges of larger, immobile flowers @ 1:2 ;)



Stany is liking completely different things in photography, so his job is forming his preferences. You are liking 300/4 new lens, for exmp., and you do show us your great images. But your lens is not for me, I am happy with my 80-400G, because it carries great convenience for my kind of interest, as well as higher quality thru the zoom!

That was exactly my point: different applications demand different tools.

Michael's err was in reprimanding Stany (and me) based on his (Michael's) preferences, not on the preferences of Stany as a wildlife (not studio-stack) photographer.
There is actually universal agreement among all of us that, for Live View, critical, photography (in optimal light), the D850 is the preferred Nikon body to use.

However, for fast-action wildlife photography ... where speed, reach, low-light, as well as AF prowess (and coverage) can matter more than anything ... suddenly the D850 starts taking a back seat to other options. Stany also mentioned the D810's buttery shutter sound, compared to the clacking of the D850, affecting his ability to keep wildlife around. Totally different experiences/shooting needs between the two photographers. Thus, totally different preferences between the two cameras.

There are 3 things you're confusing: likes (preferences), facts, and applications.

Our preferences are our subjective biases; facts are inherent properties to the gear; while applications are our choices (intelligent or not) of how to apply the facts of various gear options to match our preferences.

Speaking of which, one fact you need to accept is that the 80-400 zoom is not a 'higher-quality' optic than the 300mm PF (or any other modern telephoto).
It may be your preference, and it may be convenient for your usage, but to call it 'higher quality' is in err of reality.
(Doesn't mean it can't produce beautiful images though ... which is a different subject.)



So the 70mm macro is not "bad" for me, and I do not need 105mm macro, or anything else.

I didn't say the 70mm macro is bad "for you"; I said it is pretty useless for wildlife. There is no wildlife photographer on earth whose mainstay is a 70mm lens.



Be logical, please!  Thank you!  LZ

With a degree in Philosophy from UCLA, of which logic is the major component, I am quite sure I have a handle on that ;)

That said, good shooting :)