Author Topic: Serious Question: Nikon D500 vs. D5 (Real World Comparison)  (Read 9466 times)

JKoerner007

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Serious Question: Nikon D500 vs. D5 (Real World Comparison)
« on: February 12, 2018, 02:40:39 »
I am getting closer to having saved-up enough sheckles to afford a Nikkor 600mm f/4 E FL ED.

And while this may be nothing but an afterthought for some, it's a lot of money for me :D

The question I keep going over in my mind is what camera to use on this lens (+/- a 1.4 TC III)?

I know the Nikon D5 is Nikon's flagship camera and has better low light/high ISO capability than the DX, but in the majority of shooting that I will be doing, super-high ISO is not going to be as important as reach.

Good as the Nikon D5 is, cropping-in to the same reach as a D500 is a diminishment of the D5 image.
Although the D500 may not have the lowlight capability of the D5, in decent light (from ISO 100 - 2500) it's going to trump the D5 in resolution and pixels-on-the-image (figuring-in the 1.5x conversion factor).

I am curious to hear from other photographers who own both a D5 and a D500.
(I'm not looking to hear from theorists, people who have "read articles," or have any other kind of unsubstantiated opinion.)

I'm just looking to hear from real-world experience from those who have, and use, both of these cameras ... and have shot with them for a while.

QUESTION:

If you had to get rid of ONE (and keep the other forever) which would you keep ... and why?

Thanks.

PS: Please don't sidetrack to the D850. I am well aware of its existence ... but, for a super-tele, I want either the D500 or D5, thanks.

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Serious Question: Nikon D500 vs. D5 (Real World Comparison)
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2018, 11:07:10 »
I don't know if anyone here has all of D5, D500 and 600/4E but Shun Cheung (you can reach him at the photo.net Nikon forum or by sending e-mail directly) has both the D5 and D500 as well as a previous version of the 600/4. You might ask him how his usage is divided among the bodies with that lens.

chambeshi

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Re: Serious Question: Nikon D500 vs. D5 (Real World Comparison)
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2018, 12:53:04 »
I don't know if anyone here has all of D5, D500 and 600/4E but Shun Cheung (you can reach him at the photo.net Nikon forum or by sending e-mail directly) has both the D5 and D500 as well as a previous version of the 600/4. You might ask him how his usage is divided among the bodies with that lens.
I have the D500 but no D5. Given these circumstances check out Steve Perry and Brad Hill. Both to be trusted IMHO and they retain their D5's apparently

And John, you are challenged never to connect your 600 / 400 to a D850 :-) !!

gryphon1911

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Re: Serious Question: Nikon D500 vs. D5 (Real World Comparison)
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2018, 13:16:15 »
If you are considering a D500/D5, might has well throw a D850 into the mix.   DX cropped, you are getting something very similar to the D500.  Now, you may not get the same high ISO performance, but you'll be getting an FX sensor.

Not saying you should go that way, but definitely don't rule it out at this stage in the game.
Andrew
Nikon Z6/D500/Df Shooter (Various lenses), Olympus PEN-F (Various lenses), Fuji XPro2/X-E3 (various lenses)

RoyC

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Re: Serious Question: Nikon D500 vs. D5 (Real World Comparison)
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2018, 15:00:19 »
I have the D5 had a D500 for about a year and used both on 400mm and 800mm lenses. I sold the D500 because I was just not using it very much. The D5 was always mounted first in the AM and the last body in use in the evening. The D5 was always my preference for most BIF situations. The D500 was the better choice at times, just not very many. I have a preference for FX. The D500 was sold and I picked up a D850 for landscape/static subject use.

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Serious Question: Nikon D500 vs. D5 (Real World Comparison)
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2018, 15:40:39 »
If you are considering a D500/D5, might has well throw a D850 into the mix.   DX cropped, you are getting something very similar to the D500.  Now, you may not get the same high ISO performance, but you'll be getting an FX sensor.

While you can use a D850 in this way, there are a few practical (minor) issues. First, if you shoot with the intention of cropping by at least 1.5x, the DX area in the D850 viewfinder is small compared to that in the D500, which can make it harder to focus and compose on the subject.

Secondly the D850 makes a louder sound than the D500 (in normal viewfinder based shooting). The D850 does have silent shutter mode available but it is live view only, so for this and other reasons, it is not as well suited to action subjects, at least if you need to focus continuously and adjust the composition during the sequence.

Thirdly, the D850 real-life buffer performance leaves something to be desired, though in DX crop mode I guess the issue is not as severe as in FX.

There is one omission in the D500 specifications, namely the 9-point dynamic area mode which is present in the D850 and D5 is absent from the D500. Interestingly the D9 has become my most frequently used AF area mode with the Multi-CAM 20k equipped cameras and I would not be happy if it were taken away. A large part of the module's capability is not available in single point AF area mode (since only a third of the AF points is user selectable) and 25-point dynamic or group area AF do not have the precision of single point or D9.

If shooting in DX crop mode, I would still prefer the larger viewfinder, better buffer, slightly better image quality and quieter operation of the D500. If you intend to make use of the 45MP FX capability (or the other features exclusive to the D850) then of course the situation changes. But 45MP for action can place quite a burden on your storage and post processing workflow. I think while the D850 in theory does everything in practice it is still best used for precision work rather than action.

However, it depends on how you shoot. If you have no need or intention to use CH and if you just want the best image quality at low to intermediate ISO then the D850 may be the best choice. However, if I shoot action I need the camera to respond precisely in time irrespective of what kind of tasks were given to it moments before, and in my experience it is too easy to make the D850 have a hiccup, but this may be partly because I'm used to the D5. I am not a heavy user of CH in fact I mostly shoot in S or Qc modes (in which case there is no issue with the D850), but there are a few applications where I do use high fps, and in those cases the D850 is not ideal. However, perhaps optimizing the settings and use of only the XQD card slot alleviates the issue. I just don't like to have to change settings from situation to situation as works against instinctive operation of the camera. I would like the camera to automatically switch to 12-bit NEF recording when at ISO 400 or higher, for example. This would be a more seamless reduction in file size and optimize the buffer capacity without the user having to remember to change settings. It should be a simple job in a firmware update to permit this kind of grading of file type as a function of ISO setting.

Anyway I am surprised by the apparent great interest in the D850 and relative lack of interest in the D5. I get the cost difference but other than that, even after 20 months with the D5, I'm still happier and more excited about it than the D850.

JKoerner007

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Re: Serious Question: Nikon D500 vs. D5 (Real World Comparison)
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2018, 15:54:37 »
I don't know if anyone here has all of D5, D500 and 600/4E but Shun Cheung (you can reach him at the photo.net Nikon forum or by sending e-mail directly) has both the D5 and D500 as well as a previous version of the 600/4. You might ask him how his usage is divided among the bodies with that lens.

Thanks!

JKoerner007

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Re: Serious Question: Nikon D500 vs. D5 (Real World Comparison)
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2018, 15:55:46 »
I have the D500 but no D5. Given these circumstances check out Steve Perry and Brad Hill. Both to be trusted IMHO and they retain their D5's apparently

I think Steve Perry uses the D500 + 300 f/4 PF for light hiking, and the D850 + 600 FL ED for serious targets, when stationary.



And John, you are challenged never to connect your 600 / 400 to a D850 :-) !!

;D

JKoerner007

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Re: Serious Question: Nikon D500 vs. D5 (Real World Comparison)
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2018, 15:57:48 »
If you are considering a D500/D5, might has well throw a D850 into the mix.   DX cropped, you are getting something very similar to the D500.  Now, you may not get the same high ISO performance, but you'll be getting an FX sensor.
Not saying you should go that way, but definitely don't rule it out at this stage in the game.

I don't want to use the D850 because of the file size.

If I try to compensate, the D850 in DX mode is not quite what the D500 is. It would be a waste to use a D850 like a DX, may as well buy the DX.

However, used properly, the D850 is not something I would want to power-through with multiple exposures of a single subject. I typically come back with 400-1000 images on a weekend hike, 3x that on a week-long excursion. I don't want each of those to be 100+ MB apiece.

JKoerner007

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Re: Serious Question: Nikon D500 vs. D5 (Real World Comparison)
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2018, 15:59:53 »
I have the D5 had a D500 for about a year and used both on 400mm and 800mm lenses. I sold the D500 because I was just not using it very much. The D5 was always mounted first in the AM and the last body in use in the evening. The D5 was always my preference for most BIF situations. The D500 was the better choice at times, just not very many. I have a preference for FX. The D500 was sold and I picked up a D850 for landscape/static subject use.

Thank you. Nice lens set :)

Which body did you use during the day?

Can you describe why the D5 was your preference? Is it handling ... or file quality?

Steve Perry said the D5 cropped-in cannot match the D500. At the same relative framing, the D5 is clearly better ... but if you have to crop the D5 to get the D500 framing, it is not.

Do you disagree with this? Thanks again.

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Serious Question: Nikon D500 vs. D5 (Real World Comparison)
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2018, 16:02:33 »
While the D850 files are large, 14-bit lossless compressed NEFs are about 60MB in size, not quite 100MB. It does depend on the subject, ISO setting etc. a bit how well the images compress. And when making 16-bit TIFFs with perhaps some layers, whoa...  :o

JKoerner007

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Re: Serious Question: Nikon D500 vs. D5 (Real World Comparison)
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2018, 16:20:45 »
While you can use a D850 in this way, there are a few practical (minor) issues. First, if you shoot with the intention of cropping by at least 1.5x, the DX area in the D850 viewfinder is small compared to that in the D500, which can make it harder to focus and compose on the subject.

Secondly the D850 makes a louder sound than the D500 (in normal viewfinder based shooting). The D850 does have silent shutter mode available but it is live view only, so for this and other reasons, it is not as well suited to action subjects, at least if you need to focus continuously and adjust the composition during the sequence.

Thirdly, the D850 real-life buffer performance leaves something to be desired, though in DX crop mode I guess the issue is not as severe as in FX.

There is one omission in the D500 specifications, namely the 9-point dynamic area mode which is present in the D850 and D5 is absent from the D500. Interestingly the D9 has become my most frequently used AF area mode with the Multi-CAM 20k equipped cameras and I would not be happy if it were taken away. A large part of the module's capability is not available in single point AF area mode (since only a third of the AF points is user selectable) and 25-point dynamic or group area AF do not have the precision of single point or D9.

If shooting in DX crop mode, I would still prefer the larger viewfinder, better buffer, slightly better image quality and quieter operation of the D500. If you intend to make use of the 45MP FX capability (or the other features exclusive to the D850) then of course the situation changes. But 45MP for action can place quite a burden on your storage and post processing workflow. I think while the D850 in theory does everything in practice it is still best used for precision work rather than action.

However, it depends on how you shoot. If you have no need or intention to use CH and if you just want the best image quality at low to intermediate ISO then the D850 may be the best choice. However, if I shoot action I need the camera to respond precisely in time irrespective of what kind of tasks were given to it moments before, and in my experience it is too easy to make the D850 have a hiccup, but this may be partly because I'm used to the D5. I am not a heavy user of CH in fact I mostly shoot in S or Qc modes (in which case there is no issue with the D850), but there are a few applications where I do use high fps, and in those cases the D850 is not ideal. However, perhaps optimizing the settings and use of only the XQD card slot alleviates the issue. I just don't like to have to change settings from situation to situation as works against instinctive operation of the camera. I would like the camera to automatically switch to 12-bit NEF recording when at ISO 400 or higher, for example. This would be a more seamless reduction in file size and optimize the buffer capacity without the user having to remember to change settings. It should be a simple job in a firmware update to permit this kind of grading of file type as a function of ISO setting.

Anyway I am surprised by the apparent great interest in the D850 and relative lack of interest in the D5. I get the cost difference but other than that, even after 20 months with the D5, I'm still happier and more excited about it than the D850.

Thank you for this thoughtful analysis.

You included some drawbacks I hadn't thought of, while underscoring the drawbacks I already don't want to deal with.

I already don't like using my D810 for stacking and on my 300mm, because of the file size.
I find the D810 to be borderline acceptable while waiting for downloads/stacks to process, the D500 a breeze to process and deal with.
I don't want to bog myself down by processing a gazillion D850 files (and I have a decently-spec'd computer, 3.6 Ghz, 64mb RAM, MSI motherboard, GeForce GTX 960 Gaming 4G graphics card.)

Your excitement with the D5 is intriguing ... it seems everyone who actually has one is thrilled with it.
We agree that, despite its capability, the D850 is best used for precision, judicious shooting.

I think the D5 got a bum rap because of its mediocre base-ISO performance ... which is absurd, because no one who uses the D5 deploys it at base ISO.

Even with the D500, I never use it at base ISO (unless I am shooting studio macro). For wildlife, I always shoot 640 - 2500 ISO.

Nikon is smarter than many of its users by making the D5 excel at high ISO only, because that is where anyone who shoots action/low light is going to be.
The D5's dynamic range excellence is on the high-end, not the base-end, by intentional design.

Thanks again.

chambeshi

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Re: Serious Question: Nikon D500 vs. D5 (Real World Comparison)
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2018, 16:33:42 »
A most informative thread.  If I could afford a D5, the weight in the field becomes a significant factor, but OTOH it's not that much more than a D850 + grip. The factor one should consider is balance that is improved using the D5 against the D500 with exotic telephotos. Steve Perry mentions the advantages of the D5 in his detailed review of the D850

I agree the advantage of high ISO puts the D5 ahead, and a long way ahead above 3200. This is besides 12 fps etc for action. And it keeps on delivering here in the tropics and "up there" :-)

http://blog.iamnikon.com/en_GB/pyeongchang-2018/winter-sports-2018-olympic-short-track-speed-skating-intensity-uncertainty/

OCD

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Re: Serious Question: Nikon D500 vs. D5 (Real World Comparison)
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2018, 17:06:11 »
Discussion on FM.  Steve Perry prefers the D5 in Costa Rica.  He owns all 3 D5, D850 and D500 I think.   (Unfortunately, the D500 is not part of this discussion thread)

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1530297

JKoerner007

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Re: Serious Question: Nikon D500 vs. D5 (Real World Comparison)
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2018, 17:47:20 »
A most informative thread.  If I could afford a D5, the weight in the field becomes a significant factor, but OTOH it's not that much more than a D850 + grip. The factor one should consider is balance that is improved using the D5 against the D500 with exotic telephotos. Steve Perry mentions the advantages of the D5 in his detailed review of the D850

I agree the advantage of high ISO puts the D5 ahead, and a long way ahead above 3200. This is besides 12 fps etc for action. And it keeps on delivering here in the tropics and "up there" :-)

http://blog.iamnikon.com/en_GB/pyeongchang-2018/winter-sports-2018-olympic-short-track-speed-skating-intensity-uncertainty/

Thank you.

All tests/comments I have ever read indicate the D5 outperforms the D850 in AF acquisition/handling ... so does the D500 for that matter.

The D850 simply produces the best files, with similar AF etc., just not the buffer or the accuracy, again given the file size.