Author Topic: Pre-AI 55mm f/1.2 S ♦ C  (Read 12953 times)

JKoerner007

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Re: Pre-AI 55mm f/1.2 S ♦ C
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2017, 00:14:56 »
A few points:

1. I agree the Noct is expensive, but it was never a cheap lens, very expensive to hand polish the aspherical element, and only made in limited numbers, it was the "Otus" of its time. I don't think it is over-rated, but it is over-priced - it is a shame that collectors have pushed the price so high, out of the reach of many who would like to use it. Even without collectors I would expect it to be well above $500, and more than the more conventional AIS 50/1.2 costs to buy new today.

Have to disagree with you, Roland.

As a comparison, high-end computers, 20 years ago, were prohibitively expensive. Today, they are utterly worthless and couldn't run Microsoft Word.
Their extreme prices 20 years ago don't justify a tripling in the price to get one of these (comparative) dogs today.

To finish the point, that the Noct. was so difficult to make decades ago, doesn't justify a $3,000 of $4,000 current price tag. The Noct. simply under-delivers compared to other available options.

If I spend 3K-4K on a 58mm lens, is going to be on an impeccable 55mm Zeiss Otis, not a dated, under-performing Noct.

IMO, the Noct. is worth $500 more than a 50/1.2 AIS, at most, and that's it.

Of course, any individual is free to do whatever they want to with his money, but what it took to make (30 years ago) is irrelevant today IMO.



2. MTF charts have their place but I would never judge a lens on them alone. These charts say very little about rendering characteristics except for sharpness of a flat subject at a fixed distance. The Noct, Neo-Noct and 55/1.2 all have significant field curvature so corner sharpness is never going to score highly on flat MTF charts. This says nothing about their performance on real-world 3D subjects. They may actually have very good corner sharpness, but a little in front or behind the test chart. Lenses with flatter fields like the Otus are always going to look better in these tests. The designers of the Neo-Noct purposely designed the lens with field curvature to make the background rendition smoother. This was a brave decision as it does not look good in most test charts, they had different design goals, and most who use it find the sharpness is perfectly acceptable and the overall rendition is very pleasing. That's not to say everyone will be happy with this lens, some will prefer the Otus or Voigtlander or something else...

Totally agree with you here, in all respects.

Even modern cell phones deliberately soften portrait pics, so you have to use the right tool for the job.

While I personally favor razor-sharp images wide-open, I have also seen softer, Neo-Noct images that look better than super-sharp Zeiss Apo Sonnar images (on people/portraits), because of the dreamy softness, so I agree I need to keep that in mind.



3. You said you seek extreme sharpness wide open. If that is your goal, the 55/1.2 S.C is likely to disappoint since it is less sharp than any of the other options mentioned.

Based on images, like John Geerts posted, I will not be disappointed at all; I will merely value it for what it's good at ... and seek what I desire for macro/nature via a different route.



4. I was up last night until nearly midnight sanding and cleaning down my daughter's room in preparation for re-painting. I had no time to find more pictures, maybe later this week.

Understood. Am anxious to see more of your images, and I appreciate your time and effort in providing feedback, thank you.

JKoerner007

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Re: Pre-AI 55mm f/1.2 S ♦ C
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2017, 00:25:48 »
I have both the Voigt 58/1.4 and the Noct Nikkor. The Voigt is indeed incredible value for money. But the contrast and (relative) sharpness of the Noct wide open are definitely worth a look. Two very different lenses.

Thanks for your feedback.

I have never seen any chart/graph ... or even photo ... from a Noct. that impressed me enough to be interested to the extent I would part with 4K to own one. Not even in the top 10 running.

I have seen images from the Nikkor 200mm f/2G ED VR II that had my jaw on the floor, coveting that lens (although I am waiting for the E FL ED version, before I buy ;) ).

Same from the Zeiss Oti; same from the Voigthlander; same from the Zeiss Apo Sonnar: all of the above produce images that are good (so compelling) to have me interested enough to buy them--or to still be thinking of buying them.

By contrast, I've seen images from the Noct. that are nice ... that I appreciate ... but nothing that ever 'floored' me to the extent I felt compelled to start putting away money to own one (not even close).



Back to the subject - I also had a 55/1.2 in hands a couple of times ; interesting lens, but any 50/1.2 (AI or AIS) would probably serve you better. As a matter of fact, the 50/1.2 AI was my allrounder for some time. Sharpness and contrast wide open is much less than what the Noct would deliver, though.

My 50mm AI-S as well. Loved it @ f/4 ... super sharp, nice bokeh.

Am just tired of the rubber-focus ring, the CA, etc.

I am still getting used to my Voigtlander Noct. For sure, it is sharper wide-open. Not so sure @ f/4.

Because the prices are so reasonable, I will try my own 55 f/1.2 S*C and see what I think. One will stay, one will go, or ... the Voigtlander and the Pre-AI 55mm may take completely roles :)

John Geerts

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Re: Pre-AI 55mm f/1.2 S ♦ C
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2017, 00:51:09 »
Based on images, like John Geerts posted, I will not be disappointed at all; I will merely value it for what it's good at ... and seek what I desire for macro/nature via a different route.

Please be aware that the Image of the Tulips was shot with the Nikkor 5.8cm  f/1.4  which is (in the center) much sharper than the 55mm or 50mm f/1.2  =   It is somewhat comparable with the Voigt 58/1.4 but the 5.8cm has a little more DOF wide open and weaker corners. The center is sharper and the bokeh of the 5.8cm can be more pleasant than with the Voigt, depending on the subject.

JKoerner007

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Re: Pre-AI 55mm f/1.2 S ♦ C
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2017, 01:18:21 »
Please be aware that the Image of the Tulips was shot with the Nikkor 5.8cm  f/1.4  which is (in the center) much sharper than the 55mm or 50mm f/1.2  =   It is somewhat comparable with the Voigt 58/1.4 but the 5.8cm has a little more DOF wide open and weaker corners. The center is sharper and the bokeh of the 5.8cm can be more pleasant than with the Voigt, depending on the subject.

I'm aware.

As I alluded to, I think your image is reminiscent of the Neo-Noct ... better bokeh, not super-sharp.

We disagree a bit, in that I actually don't think yours is as sharp as the Voigt wide-open; though I do agree it has better bokeh.

Here is an image from Photography Life, comparing the bokeh of the AFS 58mm to others (including the Voight):

Both are perfectly-round, but the Nikkor 58 has much softer transitions; the Voigt much harsher borders.

Though I don't have the charts to back up your lens, it is clear the smooth transitions are wonderful.

Do you consider the Pre-AI 55mm f/1.2 S ♦ C a "downgrade" ... or an equivalent to this?

(Keep in mind this is the old Voigt, not the new one):

Erik Lund

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Re: Pre-AI 55mm f/1.2 S ♦ C
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2017, 17:24:13 »
It hurts to see you write so badly about the Noct-Nikkor John, both about the performance and the second hand prices.


It's actually a very remarkable lens in several use cases!


Very few lenses, if any at all, comes close to the Noct-Nikkors way of depicting a scene; Painterly graduation of subtle tones with smoothness galore while retaining plenty of sharpness where needed,,,


An extraordinary Nikkor! Several here own it and enjoy it!


You are of course entitled to you opinion... But I disagree strongly!
Erik Lund

JKoerner007

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Re: Pre-AI 55mm f/1.2 S ♦ C
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2017, 19:17:15 »
It hurts to see you write so badly about the Noct-Nikkor John, both about the performance and the second hand prices.


It's actually a very remarkable lens in several use cases!


Very few lenses, if any at all, comes close to the Noct-Nikkors way of depicting a scene; Painterly graduation of subtle tones with smoothness galore while retaining plenty of sharpness where needed,,,


An extraordinary Nikkor! Several here own it and enjoy it!


You are of course entitled to you opinion... But I disagree strongly!


Eric, I appreciate your rebuke of my subjective opinion :)

I know the Noct is better than the other AI-Ses, but do you honestly believe it deserves to be at an Otus price?

I like your description of its "Painterly graduation of subtle tones with smoothness galore," as I believe this is important.
(In fact, I think John Geerts demonstrated this very nicely with his pink flower image, albeit from a different lens.)

John's lens can be had for ~$120 - $325 ... do you believe the Noct to be 10-40x better in its rendering?

I am not sure if you have the Zeiss Otus, but if so, how would you characterize it compared to the Noct?

The Otus' rendering is sublime also, and its sharpness is in another league from the Noct.

However, I do recognize the point that sometimes utter sharpness (as well as edge-to-edge sharpness) are not desirable in certain lenses (or under certain circumstances).
There was a discussion where this kind of smooth, beautiful blur, graduated color, and even lack of sharpness, can be utterly pleasing ... more so than clinical super-sharpness.

I don't mean to "write badly" about the Noct, just its inflated price point.

When you see the 30-year-old pre-AI Nikkor 5.8cm f/1.4 produce such a beautiful image (and can be had for $120 - $325 on Ebay), it makes the $3,000-$4,000 price of the Noct. appear to be ridiculous.

I suppose my point is, just because the Noct. can be used for astronomy is no justification for its price to be astronomical ;D

Akira

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Re: Pre-AI 55mm f/1.2 S ♦ C
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2017, 19:31:09 »
I've shot with Ais Noct on Kodachrome 25 during the film days and was very happy with my sample.  The image was contrasty, and the bokeh was creamy.  But I heard that the earlier samples had been quite prone to flare when used in the daytime.

When Noct was current, it was sold for around 160,000 JPY new, and I bought mine as second hand in mint condition for 120,000, which was very fair and reasonable.  That being said though, the skyrocketed second hand price of just under 400,000 JPY seems to me high enough to say ridiculous.
"The eye is blind if the mind is absent." - Confucius

"Limitation is inspiration." - Akira

Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Pre-AI 55mm f/1.2 S ♦ C
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2017, 19:40:59 »
A limited production and high demand, not to speak about it taking collectors' fancy, inevitably will make the Noct expensive today.

It really is something special, but not to everyone's taste and many have trouble getting it to "sing" its praised song. A fundamental point is that the Noct was made to make pictures, not to measure well in a lab. Thus, it is not a flat-field lens and using it close up, with or without added extension, only makes this fact even more obvious.

Being basically a hand-made item, the Nocts tend to show individual variation as well. I have shoot a handful of Nocts over the years and the two I kept in my lens arsenal testify to this. I also suspect this is a lens that can go out of alignment if handles carelessly and that would add further to the variability of these optics. We rarely got our hands on them brand new so they have an unknown history before coming into our possession. The Noct is robustly build, but is not indestructible and should be treated with utmost care.

Erik Lund

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Re: Pre-AI 55mm f/1.2 S ♦ C
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2017, 19:48:01 »
We talked about this some time ago
http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php/topic,5326.msg84639.html#msg84639


The Noct is similar to the APO Lanthar 125,,,, I stated,,,,, don't know if you missed it back then,,,
Erik Lund

JKoerner007

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Re: Pre-AI 55mm f/1.2 S ♦ C
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2017, 20:52:29 »
We talked about this some time ago
http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php/topic,5326.msg84639.html#msg84639

The Noct is similar to the APO Lanthar 125,,,, I stated,,,,, don't know if you missed it back then,,,

Ah, yes, thank you. The Apo Lanthar isn't $4k, though :)

Is it possible to convert a pre-AI Nikkor 5.8cm f/1.4?

I don't see an AI Kit listen in Roland's page ... only on the pre-AI 55mm f/1.2.

Really liked John's image.

Roland Vink

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Re: Pre-AI 55mm f/1.2 S ♦ C
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2017, 21:10:31 »
Nikon never made an AI conversion kit for the 5.8cm f/1.4 (or any other lens with screw-on aperture ring - they were only available for lenses made from about 1967 onwards). The only way to convert it is to mill the original aperture ring.
Note that the rear lens shield is quite deep and may conflict with CPU contacts inside modern cameras, so could also need trimming down a little.

If you are interested in the 5.8cm lens, this is good reading:
https://www.lenstip.com/114.1-article-50_years_of_Nikon_F-mount_%E2%80%93_Nikkor-S_5.8_cm_f_1.4_vs._Nikkor_AF-S_50_mm_f_1.4G.html

JKoerner007

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Re: Pre-AI 55mm f/1.2 S ♦ C
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2017, 21:51:44 »
Nikon never made an AI conversion kit for the 5.8cm f/1.4 (or any other lens with screw-on aperture ring)
The only way to convert it is to mill the original aperture ring.
Note that the rear lens shield is quite deep and may conflict with CPU contacts inside modern cameras, so could also need trimming down a little.

If you are interested in the 5.8cm lens, this is good reading:
https://www.lenstip.com/114.1-article-50_years_of_Nikon_F-mount_%E2%80%93_Nikkor-S_5.8_cm_f_1.4_vs._Nikkor_AF-S_50_mm_f_1.4G.html

Really appreciate the info, and that link, Roland.

Fascinating. Old and modern both seem to pretty much suck wide-open ... and they both seem to be excellent by f/4-5.6.



For reversed, when I do stacks, f/4 is almost invariably the aperture I select.
The old Voigtlander Nokton appears to be sharper wide-open at and f/4. (I would imagine the newer version even more so.)

In all the lenses, there is a huge disparity from center-to-edge sharpness, which is I suspect by design, as it aids in the rendering and isolation of a subject for portraiture.

One thing LensTip didn't comment on, or measure (at least back then 2009/2010), was bokeh. They did mention that, while the new version had better light transmission; they were surprised at how close they were, given the 50-year disparity in the elder version.

Wish LensTip performed the same test with Noct., but Photography Life did so on the previous page, and the results were delved into pretty well.

John Geerts

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John Geerts

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Re: Pre-AI 55mm f/1.2 S ♦ C
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2017, 21:57:47 »
And it's tale number 40 of the Nikkor lenses    http://imaging.nikon.com/history/story/0040/index.htm

Erik Lund

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Re: Pre-AI 55mm f/1.2 S ♦ C
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2017, 22:11:54 »
Ah, yes, thank you. The Apo Lanthar isn't $4k, though,,,,,,


I really have a hard time comparing second hand lens prices like that,,, ;) doesn't make sence imho,,,


Not going into figures, the Lanthar was much cheaper new which ever way you calculate.


Something relevant for users is the build quality, the Lanthar is no where near that of the Noct,,,

For me the sh prices are fairly ok,,, for both
Erik Lund