Author Topic: Nikon D850 - in the end, who's producing its imaging sensor ?  (Read 6272 times)

MFloyd

  • NG Supporter
  • **
  • Posts: 1780
  • My quest for the "perfect" speed blur
    • Adobe Portfolio
Nikon D850 - in the end, who's producing its imaging sensor ?
« on: September 12, 2017, 18:06:50 »
It is rumored that the sensor foundry for the D850 sensor would be the Israeli company TowerJazz, one of the few ones to produce BSI sensors. TowerJaz would also produce the latest Leica sensors ...

http://www.towerjazz.com

They have two production units in Japan (in Uozu and Arai) after having purchased 51% from Panasonic.

http://www.towerjazz.com/cmos-image-sensor.html



In parallel, an interesting article on Sony, highlighting the interaction and possible conflicts between their imaging and sensor product divisions.

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/9600049212/sony-vision-over-profit
Γνῶθι σεαυτόν

JKoerner007

  • Guest
Re: Nikon D850 - in the end, who's producing its imaging sensor ?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2017, 05:48:20 »
The DP Review article directly debunks most of the hype espoused by Sony zealots.

The belief system of the ardent Sony fan appears wrong on every count:
  • Nikon designs Nikon sensors (not Sony);
  • Sony offers foundry service to Nikon, not technology;
  • Sony views Nikon (and others) as valuable customers, not competition;
  • The D850 was not only a Nikon design (not a Sony design); it was also built by the Israeli company TowerJazz.
Even if the D850 sensor were built by Sony, Nikon's technology = Nikon's technology, it's not Sony's (this is why God created patents ).

But TowerJazz produced the D850's sensor (they also produce Leica sensors).

Some relevant quotes:


DP Review:
There are interesting implications of this wall between Sony Semiconductor and Sony DI: it means that newer, better technologies than those available in Sony’s own cameras may appear in any other manufacturers' cameras, despite using a 'Sony' sensor.

Sony:
Indeed, we’ve actually seen multiple examples of this: ISO 64 on the D810 and 16-bit analog-to-digital conversion on the Hasselblad X1D to name just two.


DP Review:
Could this threaten the growth of Sony's own camera division?

Sony:
Our focus is to increase the overall market. (Paraphrasing slightly) Please think about vision. Our company has a vision, which is much more important than profit alone. Of course, if we cut our supply of sensors to other OEMs our camera market share might increase. But this is not our vision. Our vision is to grow the entire imaging market, and Sony alone cannot make every [imaging] product. While every manufacturer wants to be number one, no single company can make every product - even within a single sector.


DP Review:
It is clear that Sony believes that competition is healthy, and that if Sony sensors help make better products, be it in a Sony device or other OEM device, the consumer wins. And ultimately, that is the purpose of the company.

Sony:
Our company has a vision, which is more important than profit alone.


DP Review:
It's possible that the worst of the camera market collapse is over, but we do wonder whether Sony’s strategy might change if the market continues to shrink. Would the huge current investment in ILCs still pay off? Would sales of class-leading sensors to other OEMs still make sense?

Sony:
Yes.

In the end, the takeaway is this:
  • Nikon designs its own sensors, and Sony manufactures them;
  • Nikon's best sensor to date, the class-leading D850 sensor, was designed by Nikon, and built by (if reports are true) TowerJazz;
  • Sony's best sensors are not necessarily as good as the competition [they are obligated to mind the patent restrains of customers (e.g., Nikon) who create better sensors than they do];
  • Sony has a great, contributing attitude to ALL camera manufacturers.
So, yes, Sony is "in it to win it" ... as well they should be ... but they are also 1) humble enough to concede better technologies, 2) helpful enough to provide foundry resources to any customers, and therefore 3) they appear to view their presence as truly great ambassadors for everyone.

Great article, IMO, and hats-off to Sony for the honest responses ...

Jack

pluton

  • NG Supporter
  • **
  • Posts: 2600
  • You ARE NikonGear
Re: Nikon D850 - in the end, who's producing its imaging sensor ?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2017, 06:35:25 »
A data point:  Mr. T. Hogan sems to believe that the D850 sensor comes from a Sony factory:
"This explains the "Nikon designed D850 sensor" pretty clearly. As most of us believe, it's likely Sony Exmor technologies with Nikon changes and additions, and fabbed in the old Toshiba plant that Sony bought. "
Whole blog post here:
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/the-sensor-battles-continue.html
Keith B., Santa Monica, CA, USA

Fons Baerken

  • NG Supporter
  • **
  • Posts: 10578
    • https://www.flickr.com/photos/fonsbaerken/
Re: Nikon D850 - in the end, who's producing its imaging sensor ?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2017, 08:03:10 »
Uncle Ken Wheeler claims to be informed by 2 reliable sources from Nikon, Japan, the D850 sensor is made by TowerJazz,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whZGDpAZiSI

Les Olson

  • NG Member
  • *
  • Posts: 502
  • You ARE NikonGear
Re: Nikon D850 - in the end, who's producing its imaging sensor ?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2017, 09:06:15 »

    • Sony has a great, contributing attitude to ALL camera manufacturers.

    Alternatively, profit margins on sensors supplied to other camera manufacturers are higher than on complete cameras. 

    The article is Sony marketing.  The author is a Sony "specialist": 14 of his last 20 articles are about how great Sony is, and this is not the first time he has given Sony a platform for the "We just want to increase the overall market" story (https://www.dpreview.com/interviews/4571668362/sony-interview-our-focus-is-to-increase-the-overall-market).  Speaking of honest and open discussion, can you find a disclosure statement about who paid for his trips? 

    MFloyd

    • NG Supporter
    • **
    • Posts: 1780
    • My quest for the "perfect" speed blur
      • Adobe Portfolio
    Re: Nikon D850 - in the end, who's producing its imaging sensor ?
    « Reply #5 on: September 13, 2017, 09:46:17 »

    .....
    The article is Sony marketing.  The author is a Sony "specialist": 14 of his last 20 articles are about how great Sony is, and this is not the first time he has given Sony a platform for the "We just want to increase the overall market" story (https://www.dpreview.com/interviews/4571668362/sony-interview-our-focus-is-to-increase-the-overall-market).  Speaking of honest and open discussion, can you find a disclosure statement about who paid for his trips?

    This is also my viewpoint, but I wanted you to make your point first. For me, Sony is Nikon's competitor number one to fear, and it is excellent that Nikon stays as independent as possible from Sony, at least for their flagship cameras. [
    Γνῶθι σεαυτόν

    Ilkka Nissilä

    • NG Supporter
    • **
    • Posts: 1689
    • You ARE NikonGear
    Re: Nikon D850 - in the end, who's producing its imaging sensor ?
    « Reply #6 on: September 13, 2017, 17:04:58 »
    I think the interesting question is how does it work and why the designers made those choices, rather than who made it.

    From a user's point of view, the important question is how is a camera to use, and what kind of results can be achieved. Of course I would like to know that working conditions for the people are decent and terms of employment fair.  Other than that I could hardly care who makes which component. Nikon have had consistently excellent sensors in their cameras for a decade now. So they must have been doing something right regardless of who made the actual sensor.

    I think it is surprising why no one asks who made the AF sensor module. In my opinion that's really where the beef is in these new cameras. (Not that it matters who made it, but if you ask one question why not the other?)

    Wannabebetter

    • NG Member
    • *
    • Posts: 163
    • Grateful For The Instruction Provided Me
    Re: Nikon D850 - in the end, who's producing its imaging sensor ?
    « Reply #7 on: September 13, 2017, 19:34:20 »
    Good point! I think... Yes! ::)

    JKoerner007

    • Guest
    Re: Nikon D850 - in the end, who's producing its imaging sensor ?
    « Reply #8 on: October 06, 2017, 14:58:01 »
    Looks like the D850 sensor is the first DSLR to hit 100 pts at DxO Mark, besting Phase One MF sensors in many respects:

    https://www.dxomark.com/nikon-d850-sensor-review-first-dslr-hit-100-points

    CS

    • NG Member
    • *
    • Posts: 1240
    • You ARE NikonGear
    Re: Nikon D850 - in the end, who's producing its imaging sensor ?
    « Reply #9 on: October 06, 2017, 16:05:06 »
    A data point:  Mr. T. Hogan sems to believe that the D850 sensor comes from a Sony factory:
    "This explains the "Nikon designed D850 sensor" pretty clearly. As most of us believe, it's likely Sony Exmor technologies with Nikon changes and additions, and fabbed in the old Toshiba plant that Sony bought. "
    Whole blog post here:
    http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/the-sensor-battles-continue.html

    While I have no inside info, I find Hogan's article to be well reasoned.
    Carl

    Ethan

    • NG Supporter
    • **
    • Posts: 208
    • You ARE NikonGear
    Re: Nikon D850 - in the end, who's producing its imaging sensor ?
    « Reply #10 on: October 10, 2017, 22:19:20 »
    Hulk Hogan does Photography?

    I can tell you that Nikon Sensor Chips are Made In Brazil and I saw them and I have the proof as well   ;D

    Here you go:






    CS

    • NG Member
    • *
    • Posts: 1240
    • You ARE NikonGear
    Re: Nikon D850 - in the end, who's producing its imaging sensor ?
    « Reply #11 on: October 11, 2017, 01:26:14 »
    Hulk Hogan does Photography?

    I can tell you that Nikon Sensor Chips are Made In Brazil and I saw them and I have the proof as well   ;D

    Here you go:







    Olé, and pass the dip!    ;)
    Carl

    Akira

    • Homo jezoensis
    • NG Supporter
    • **
    • Posts: 12468
    • Tokyo, Japan
    Re: Nikon D850 - in the end, who's producing its imaging sensor ?
    « Reply #12 on: October 11, 2017, 02:47:29 »
    Olé, and pass the dip!    ;)

    Sorry, Carl, Nikon ran out of the dip: they used it too much for the D600 chips.  :D
    "The eye is blind if the mind is absent." - Confucius

    "Limitation is inspiration." - Akira

    Hugh_3170

    • NG Supporter
    • **
    • Posts: 1996
    • Back in Melbourne!
    Re: Nikon D850 - in the end, who's producing its imaging sensor ?
    « Reply #13 on: October 11, 2017, 02:51:25 »
    Sooner or later, Chipworks will pull a D850 apart and determine exactly who has fabricated the sensor on the particular D850 camera that they examine.

    Even if made in a Sony fabrication plant, I would not be too surprised if Nikon built steppers are used to do the fabrication - such is the interwoven nature of the Japanese industrial system.  Competitors in the showrooms and quite frequently collaborators in the factories. 

    What is important is that the D850 appears to have a great sensor.
    Hugh Gunn