Author Topic: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews  (Read 85395 times)

golunvolo

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Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
« Reply #270 on: September 24, 2017, 23:32:43 »
Please Frank, you are so generous.

    Iso 9000 @1.4 an still this quality. I wanna try!  ;D

Frank Fremerey

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Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
« Reply #271 on: October 09, 2017, 07:39:13 »
You are out there. You and your camera. You can shoot or not shoot as you please. Discover the world, Your world. Show it to us. Or we might never see it.

Me: https://youpic.com/photographer/frankfremerey/

richardHaw

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Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
« Reply #272 on: October 09, 2017, 16:33:13 »
https://richardhaw.com/2017/10/09/update-nikon-d850-negative-digitizer-mode-pt2/

here is an updated post on the negative digitizer mode  :o :o :o

this time, with audio!!!  ::)

this feature is so damn quirky, looks like Nikon wanted this out before anybody else.

arthurking83

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Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
« Reply #273 on: October 10, 2017, 17:25:06 »
 That negative digitizer feature sounds like a typical handy feature made completely stupid by Nikon's engineers!  ::)

I think they could have easily done the exact same thing, much more simply by simply adding a Picture Control type that does colour reversal as well as luminance reversal.
At the moment they only offer a luminance reversal option if you use their Picture Control software.

back in the good old D700 days(can't remember exactly what year that was, but back then anyhow), they had a few Nikon created Picture Controls you could download and use on compatible cameras.
Then they created the Picture Control Utility(for ViewNX2(and now ViewNX-i) and it seemed like some progress was being made.
But using the Picture Control Utility, you can only adjust reversal of tones on a luminance basis, and not colour, so for digitizing negatives you had to use software(I use CaptureNX2).

So as it stands: It appears to be an exercise only for the sake of marketing, in that the marketing folks have another line of useless info to fill in on their advertisement pages.
Almost makes one feel like their is no direction(or leadership) when it comes to actual engineering management for their products.
Arthur

richardHaw

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Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
« Reply #274 on: October 10, 2017, 17:57:46 »
that's what i do and I am writing an article on that this weekend.  :o :o :o

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
« Reply #275 on: October 10, 2017, 19:25:49 »
It is typical that the first implementation is crude and then they improve it in subsequent iterations until it is good. It’s a business model.

Ethan

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Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
« Reply #276 on: October 10, 2017, 21:35:39 »
https://richardhaw.com/2017/10/09/update-nikon-d850-negative-digitizer-mode-pt2/

here is an updated post on the negative digitizer mode  :o :o :o

this time, with audio!!!  ::)

this feature is so damn quirky, looks like Nikon wanted this out before anybody else.



That negative digitizer feature sounds like a typical handy feature made completely stupid by Nikon's engineers!  ::)

I think they could have easily done the exact same thing, much more simply by simply adding a Picture Control type that does colour reversal as well as luminance reversal.
At the moment they only offer a luminance reversal option if you use their Picture Control software.

back in the good old D700 days(can't remember exactly what year that was, but back then anyhow), they had a few Nikon created Picture Controls you could download and use on compatible cameras.
Then they created the Picture Control Utility(for ViewNX2(and now ViewNX-i) and it seemed like some progress was being made.
But using the Picture Control Utility, you can only adjust reversal of tones on a luminance basis, and not colour, so for digitizing negatives you had to use software(I use CaptureNX2).

So as it stands: It appears to be an exercise only for the sake of marketing, in that the marketing folks have another line of useless info to fill in on their advertisement pages.
Almost makes one feel like their is no direction(or leadership) when it comes to actual engineering management for their products.

Please explain to me how this is "quirky" and how does this make the leadership of Nikon failing the engineering management of their product.

So you have a new camera where by Nikon specifies that digitizing negs or pos should be done with a new device ES-2. Furthermore they are specifying the lens to be used and the Mode to be applied.........and then you have a Johny come lately making a video who uses a different lens plus an extension plus a different digitizing adapter plus Manual mode and gives the cyberworld his take on the failing of the product???????

Really??????

And then we have here two illustrious members jumping on the band wagon to diss Nikon.

Really?

Please enlighten me how you both came to such conclusion as I am an avid learner from my learned peers.

But before that and so we would take you seriously Do you Have:
1- a D850
2- the new digitizing adapter ES-2

I thank you.


arthurking83

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Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
« Reply #277 on: October 11, 2017, 03:03:42 »


Please explain to me how this is "quirky" and how does this make the leadership of Nikon failing the engineering management of their product.

.....

From my point of view, and to be sure this is just my point of view, and nothing else!

I used to think that there was some kind of limitation as to what Picture Controls could or couldn't do whilst doing their internal things in the camera.

ie. I simply assumed that the cameras internal processing simply can't comprehend colour reversal, so using Picture Controls it can't be done.
If you've ever played with the Picture Control Utility(on computer) you'll understand.
It gives you the ability to create creative effects on some images on the computer, then save that Picture Control and upload it to the camera.
one of those creative control options is to play with the levels tool, so you can easily do luminance reversal(amongst other things).
So if you were to digitize black and white negatives, you could easily do this in camera and see the reversal outcome on screen(handy for exposure reasons).
The added bonus is that you maintain the raw(NEF) workflow too.
So if they can do colour reversal in camera, then there is no limitation as to what the camera CAN do in that sense .. so there is no reason why this same process can't be produced in camera simply via the Picture Control system.
Instead they clutter up the menu system with features that are not only regular items(ie. can't imagine users dong negative digitization on a regular basis) .. and that menu item could easily be used for any other purpose that could be more of a regular usage item.

So adding this item into the firmware takes up coding time(for the coding of the firmware) .. when they already have a system whereby this could be implemented(ie. the Picture Control system)
The user doesn't even need the Picture Control Utility to create a colour reversal Picture Control style .. all it requires is one person to do it, and then share the Picture Control freely amongst those that also want to use it.

So, not only does additional coding take time to implement into the firmware for the camera(ie. delayed camera announcement/release) it also complicates the firmware code too .. ie. more likely for bugs, and to ensure it doesn't create bugs, it has to be tested and debugged .. ie. added time delay.

That to me is a leadership issue!(ie. whoever the person in charge of the implementation of the firmware was)
That is, the leader of the software side of the device should have stepped up to the plate and announced that this 'feature' would have been best, and more simply, added as a simple Picture Control style.
Simplifying the firmware(or adding a more useful feature item into he firmware instead) could have resulted, or earlier introductory of the actual device.

The idea is great, and if implemented properly something I'd probably use, even tho not on a very regular basis. But, to not offer raw file capture is pure silly!
You can use a mobile phone to do the same, so as a feature for a $4-5K camera .. it's pretty miserable. In fact now that Android allows raw file capture, it's probably a better feature on a mobile phone!

Why is raw file important(for me) .. simply for the white balance alteration. Hard to achieve with a negative(even with calculated lighting, and I used a high CRI halogen as my light source), but choosing a grey point in PP gave me the best whitebalance outcome for my digitized negatives.

I had a job lot of a few hundred negs and colour slides to digitize a few years back, but it turns out they were all thrown out! So that job lot didn't eventuate. But I did get the PB-4 + PS-4 slide accessory to do that lot.
Setup took some time, but once that was done, I did about 30 test negs in about 30 mins with a lot of due care.
Then used CNX2 to do the conversion on the NEF files, using the levels and curves tool to do the reversal.

As for the hardware:
No D850 yet! (will in a few months once all bugs and issues have been found/sorted.
no ES-2, but as it's a simple dumb adapter(basically a tube) at a ridiculous price. Zero interest in it.
My PB-4+PS-4 setup is not only more flexible but more practical for other uses as well .. and it cost me less to acquire(granted that it was second hand, but in Ex++ condition)

Hope that makes sense.
Arthur

richardHaw

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Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
« Reply #278 on: October 11, 2017, 03:46:37 »
Thanks Arthur for taking care of that :o :o :o

Michael Erlewine

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Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
« Reply #279 on: October 11, 2017, 08:31:08 »
Diglloyd (Lloyd Chambers) finally lays to rest the question of ISO 64 between the Nikon D810 and the new D850. Equally important to my work, he successfully vets the "lo" ISO values for each camera (ISO 31 on the D850 and ISO 50 on the D810), although they are not "real" ISOs. Of all the reports on the D850, this is what I am most interested in hearing about. One has to subscribe, but this report itself is worth the subscription IMO.

MichaelErlewine.smugmug.com, Daily Blog at https://www.facebook.com/MichaelErlewine. main site: SpiritGrooves.net, https://www.youtube.com/user/merlewine, Founder: MacroStop.com, All-Music Guide, All-Movie Guide, Classic Posters.com, Matrix Software, DharmaGrooves.com

chambeshi

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Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
« Reply #280 on: October 11, 2017, 09:23:38 »
See the DxO charts on the parallel thread comparing D850 and D750 - useful to also compare the D810 (with its legendary DR)

"see DxOMark Photographic Dynamic Range Chart." I'll post the screen grab for you:



Moving from Photons to Photos to DxO Mark, you might want to read their latest article. To quote, they say:

  • "The D850’s key strengths are its outstanding color (Portrait score) and dynamic range (Landscape score) at base ISO where it again ranks as the number one among all commercially available cameras we’ve tested for these attributes. Offering outstanding dynamic range of 14.8 EV and color depth of 26.4 bit at base ISO, combined with its massive 45.7Mp resolution, the D850 is a mouthwatering prospect for landscape, studio, portrait, as well as high-end editorial or advertising photographers who are  seeking top-notch image quality for large-scale reproduction and display."

In DxO's comparision, the D850 beats the D750 pretty much across the board. Here are some screen grabs from DxO Mark showing the differences (SNR and Tonal Range are near identical; however, Dynamic Range and Color Sensitivity favor the D850 throughout):








Granted, the D750 is a very good camera, arguably the better value.

However, when you factor in the AF, the sensor-size, the FPS, combined with the absolute best you can do in color/DR, the D850 earns its #1 spot among all cameras available today ... and the D750 its #11 spot.

Ethan

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Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
« Reply #281 on: October 11, 2017, 09:43:20 »
From my point of view, and to be sure this is just my point of view, and nothing else!

I used to think that there was some kind of limitation as to what Picture Controls could or couldn't do whilst doing their internal things in the camera.

ie. I simply assumed that the cameras internal processing simply can't comprehend colour reversal, so using Picture Controls it can't be done.
If you've ever played with the Picture Control Utility(on computer) you'll understand.
It gives you the ability to create creative effects on some images on the computer, then save that Picture Control and upload it to the camera.
one of those creative control options is to play with the levels tool, so you can easily do luminance reversal(amongst other things).
So if you were to digitize black and white negatives, you could easily do this in camera and see the reversal outcome on screen(handy for exposure reasons).
The added bonus is that you maintain the raw(NEF) workflow too.
So if they can do colour reversal in camera, then there is no limitation as to what the camera CAN do in that sense .. so there is no reason why this same process can't be produced in camera simply via the Picture Control system.
Instead they clutter up the menu system with features that are not only regular items(ie. can't imagine users dong negative digitization on a regular basis) .. and that menu item could easily be used for any other purpose that could be more of a regular usage item.

So adding this item into the firmware takes up coding time(for the coding of the firmware) .. when they already have a system whereby this could be implemented(ie. the Picture Control system)
The user doesn't even need the Picture Control Utility to create a colour reversal Picture Control style .. all it requires is one person to do it, and then share the Picture Control freely amongst those that also want to use it.

So, not only does additional coding take time to implement into the firmware for the camera(ie. delayed camera announcement/release) it also complicates the firmware code too .. ie. more likely for bugs, and to ensure it doesn't create bugs, it has to be tested and debugged .. ie. added time delay.

That to me is a leadership issue!(ie. whoever the person in charge of the implementation of the firmware was)
That is, the leader of the software side of the device should have stepped up to the plate and announced that this 'feature' would have been best, and more simply, added as a simple Picture Control style.
Simplifying the firmware(or adding a more useful feature item into he firmware instead) could have resulted, or earlier introductory of the actual device.

The idea is great, and if implemented properly something I'd probably use, even tho not on a very regular basis. But, to not offer raw file capture is pure silly!
You can use a mobile phone to do the same, so as a feature for a $4-5K camera .. it's pretty miserable. In fact now that Android allows raw file capture, it's probably a better feature on a mobile phone!

Why is raw file important(for me) .. simply for the white balance alteration. Hard to achieve with a negative(even with calculated lighting, and I used a high CRI halogen as my light source), but choosing a grey point in PP gave me the best whitebalance outcome for my digitized negatives.

I had a job lot of a few hundred negs and colour slides to digitize a few years back, but it turns out they were all thrown out! So that job lot didn't eventuate. But I did get the PB-4 + PS-4 slide accessory to do that lot.
Setup took some time, but once that was done, I did about 30 test negs in about 30 mins with a lot of due care.
Then used CNX2 to do the conversion on the NEF files, using the levels and curves tool to do the reversal.

As for the hardware:
No D850 yet! (will in a few months once all bugs and issues have been found/sorted.
no ES-2, but as it's a simple dumb adapter(basically a tube) at a ridiculous price. Zero interest in it.
My PB-4+PS-4 setup is not only more flexible but more practical for other uses as well .. and it cost me less to acquire(granted that it was second hand, but in Ex++ condition)

Hope that makes sense.

It does make sense in not making any sense.

Let us recap. The Nikon ES-2 offers the possibility of digitizing film using the Nikon 60/2.8 for an automated or semi automated process.

This is done by specifically using both lens and ES-2 adapter with LV in A mode. Not S or any other mode.

It seems that this video guy did not bother to read the D850 manual which is crystal clear about it in page 53.
Doing a whole video which repeats what Nikon said in the first place is taking the piss.








You can also take full control and choose manual for the lens and manual mode and use S or A or whatever but you will loose the automation.
Subsequently, you could load your "Picture Control" to your heart content in full manual mode.
Not that there is any point going manual as it defeats the purpose of the ES-2 automation and you might as well continue doing what you were doing using the ES-1.

As for the RAW v Jpeg. Obviously the RAW would be a better route, however the Jpeg does offer a Fine mode for a higher res and pixel count.

Nikon has opened a new vista, a new route albeit might not be useful for heavy negs digitizing users, it sure finds solace with the occasional user.
Whether a 60/2.8 can only do the job or not will have to wait for the release of the ES-2.

At any rate, dissing Nikon and it's leadership and management for what you not comprehend or not matches with your "personal" expectations, is uncalled for.

chambeshi

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Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
« Reply #282 on: October 11, 2017, 09:58:09 »
One tester who feels uneasy on the the IQ of the medium RAW campared against the D5

https://neilvn.com/tangents/review-nikon-d850/

This also but still inadequate - https://neilvn.com/tangents/review-nikon-d850-high-iso-test-nikon-d5-d850-d810-d750/

Eddie Draaisma

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Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
« Reply #283 on: October 11, 2017, 13:21:31 »
Review on Photographylife, they spent some time with the focus stacking feature (that only works with AF lenses).

https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-d850

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
« Reply #284 on: October 11, 2017, 17:09:20 »
D850 autofocus tests by dpreview

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d850-first-impressions-review/8

Interestingly their findings seem in agreement with Matt Granger's video testing: 3D Tracking would sometimes lose the subject in a way that was unexpected.  According to dpreview the AF tracking during burst shooting lags behind D5 but is better than D810, A7R II and 5Ds R.

I'm wondering if they used the MB-D18 grip and EN-EL18(a/b) battery in this testing or not. This could affect AF performance.