Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews

[Frank Fremerey]

You are both right, all li-ion batteries label the resting voltage (3.6-3.7V per cell) and not its max voltage when fully charged (4.2V per cell).

The EN-EL18a uses three li-ion cells so the volt range is between 9 and 12.6V.
- 3 x 3.6V = 10.8V on the sticker
- 3 x 4.2V = 12.6V when fully charged
- 3 x ca 3V = 9V when empty

The EN-EL15 uses two li-ion cells so the volt range is between 6 and 8.4V.
- 2 x 3.6V = 7.2V on the sticker
- 2 x 4.2V = 8.4V when fully charged
- 2 x ca 3V = 6V when empty

With 8 AA NiMH batteries, the volt range is between 6.4 and 11.6V
- 8 x 1.2V =  9.6V on the sticker
- 8 x 1.45V = 11.6V when fully charged
- 8 x 0.8V = 6.4V when empty

So the EN-EL18a starts at 12.6V and keeps it well above 9V which is above the 8.4V maximum of the EN-EL15. The AA pack starts in the volt range of the EN-EL18a but midway will drop below 9V into the lower volt range of the EN-EL15, so the camera should still work but the lower voltage isn't enough to drive the higher FPS.

Thank you. Very interesting. Yet I see that Nikon bodies report my Eneloop Pros to be empty much earlier. I never saw them reach 1.2V, so their full capacity is never used up. When do Nikon cameras switch to the internal battery? If this is not documented, I guess I have to measure.

THX also for the one who posted the battery knowledge link!

[Ilkka Nissilä]

Although there have been problems with the D600/D750 shutters, I don't think the shutter of a Nikon professional camera is likely to be poorly tested.

Of course none of us have any personal experience on the failure rate of this particular shutter but the MTBF should give an idea. 

[chambeshi]

Thanks very much for your valuable advice
So.... To tabulate a partial summary. Confirms [and if needed justifies to fiscal police :-) ] the benefits of owning BOTH the D500 and D850

            D500                                                                                                D850
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 DX Sensor (24×16) image area: 5568×3712 = 25mp (max)                   FX BIS sensor (36×24): 8256×5504 = 45.4 mp (max)
                                                                                                                         DX mode (24×16): 5408 × 3600 = 19.4 mp
   ISO 100 to  51200                                                                                                     ISO 64 to 25600
      Clean prints up to ISO 20 000                                                                          Clean prints likely up to ISO 40 000
     ~1.0× 98% Viewfinder                                                                                                 ~0.75x 100% Viewfinder
     10fps max writes 200 frames to buffer                                                   9fps max writes 51 frames RAW to buffer but requires MB-D18
                                                                    -----------------------------------
 D5 AF system but lacks 9-Point dynamic-area                                                              Adds d9 area (as in D5)
                                                                                                            smaller d9 coverage area complements Single-Point AF
                                                                                                                                     PinPoint AF in D850
   AF points cover wider area in D500 Viewfinder                             
                                                                                                               D850 has Improved LiveView - Adds Focus-Peaking
                                                                                                                               Focus-Stacking in D850     
                                                                    -----------------------------------
                                                                                                                                  Silent Shutter Mode in D850
  Shutter/mirror more Compact in D500                                                       Counter-Balancer to minimize vibration of D850 shutter
                                                                                                                                   Better Video in D850
                                                                    -----------------------------------
Camera [alone] weighs ~760 g/1 lb 10.9 oz                                                        Camera [alone] weighs ~1005 g/2 lb 3.5 oz
                 Price 1/2 of FX                                                                                cost of MB-D18 +ENEL18b + charger
             Refurbished/Used options                                                                             New only (8 Sep 2017 release)
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kind regards

woody

Not exactly, the D500 can do 10fps and is about half the price of the D850 + grip + D5 battery and charger required to get to 9fps. The viewfinder magnification of the D500 is 1x vs. 0.75x for the D850. The smaller mirror and shutter of the DX model very likely create less sound and vibration.

Exactly. The D500 makes smaller files at faster pace. It has a unmatched AF point distribution and other features of interest. A D850 and D500 in my bag give two meanings to any prime in my bag. And I always work with two bodies. Only advantages.

The other point is that at same final print size the D850 more than doubles the amount of light collected compared to the D500. So: I can get clean prints from the D500 at ISO 20.000, so I expect to get clean prints of the same site at ISO 40.000 from the D850. Comparing apples to apples means: same print size.

[chris dees]

I'm defenately getting a D850 (early next year or so).
I'll keep the D500, it's such a good camera, but it will be my backup body and/or when I need the speed.
The grip, battery and charger will cost an additional €1000

[David H. Hartman]

Comparing apples to apples means: same print size.

What if the apples are different sizes. It happens you know...

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My opinion is the D500 and D850 are two difference cameras with different uses. Sure there is overlap. If one can only own one then comparing is necessary to make a choice. If a photographer owns both deciding which camera to use for which purpose if not obvious will come quickly with use.

Carrying two camera for personal use is a drag. Carrying two camera for a paid gig is required.

---

In days of film...

Small Apples...

35mm = 8x10 often cropped to about 7x10
6x6 = 8x10 cropped or not, any which way but loose

Medium Apples...

35mm = 11x14 often cropped to about 9 x 14 (largest and preferred size for Tri-X)
6x6 = 11x14 cropped or not (What's this mean? Square 4:3, 3:2 and many others...)

Jumbo apples...

35mm = 16x20 almost never (could be done quite well from Kodachrome II/25).
6x6 = 16x20 cropped or not

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In comparing body to body, format to format I'm going to agree with Frank on comparing same size prints. My preferred size in film days was to print on 11x14 paper. 8x10s were usually test prints. That's printing for myself. I printed untold quantities of 8x10 B&W for publication, mostly PR. 

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I don't usually crop to standard print sizes. I crop for the best appearance of the subject.

Dave Hartman who's hair needs to be cropped but won't

4x5? About the same as 6x6 but larger prints were an option.

[Les Olson]

So: I can get clean prints from the D500 at ISO 20.000, so I expect to get clean prints of the same site at ISO 40.000 from the D850. Comparing apples to apples means: same print size.

That depends what the final print size is.  The D850 prints 27 x 18 at 300 dpi.  The D500 cannot print larger than 18 x 12 at 300 dpi.  So at 27 x 18 you get the expected benefit from the D850 because the D500 has to use (roughly) half the dpi so noise is more apparent.  To print a D850 file at 18 x 12 you can increase output resolution and down-sample or just down-sample, and how much difference there is at 18 x 12 will depend on the details of how you do it.  But for an 8 x 10 print at 300 dpi you only need 7.2MP, and you can't squash either 20MP or 45MP into 8 x 10 by increasing print resolution.  The degree of down-sampling is greater for the D850 the noise will be effectively masked in both cases and you may not see much benefit.   

[David H. Hartman]

I thought most inkjet printers wanted 240 dpi while some art books need 360 or 400 dpi. [My knowledge of inkjet printers is out of date. ]

[Frank Fremerey]

Output the resolution you need and optimize for the output media. Noone needs the native resolution. Noone pixel peeps on Billboards. I have a 1 Meter Print of a Sports Photo on my wall, heavily cropped from a D70s file to 960*1120 qpixels. If you pixel peep there are some aliasing artifacts. I do not give a ...

Agencies want max resolution. True. It sells.

PS: for trade fair booth I print in 150 or 72 ppi

PPS: more pixels is the weakest argument for me to buy the camera. If I use the D600 and lose shots that I would have easily nailed with the D850 I think: pity. So I want her on day one!

[Les Olson]

Epson's higher level inkjet printer heads have 360 ink nozzles per inch and Canon printers 300.  So their native resolutions are 360 and 300 dpi.  A printer with fewer nozzles per inch would have a lower native resolution.  Printers quote much higher resolutions because the ink droplets are much smaller, but you can't actually have that once the drops go splat on the paper.  If you set a lower resolution than 360/300, the density of ink nozzles doesn't change, the driver performs an interpolation so some adjacent nozzles do the same thing, which is usually not as good as the alternative, which is to get Lightroom or whatever to up or down-sample the image file so you can print at the native printer resolution at the size you want.  There are several different algorithms to do that and exactly what you get depends which you choose.  Down-sampling will always reduce noise, however.

[Ilkka Nissilä]

Here is some information about the topic regarding the Epson 3800:

https://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/faq.html#native_res

If I printed on glossy paper (I normally use Premium Luster and print using Epson 3880) I would probably use Finest detail for small prints and set the print resolution to 720. For practical printing times and reducing unnecessary extra processing I've settled on 360ppi as the resolution I use in Lightroom's Print tab.

When I had a printer which was optimized for glossy printing, the R1800, I could see that the premium glossy paper can hold very fine detail which is great for small prints but the K3 series inks do not seem well suited for glossy printing in color (due to metamerism). For black and white on glossy paper I might try Finest detail and set the resolution to 720ppi.

[chambeshi]

Thom Hogan's views of the D850 vs D500, and updated lists of top lenses

http://www.dslrbodies.com/cameras/the-d850-blog/

[Frank Fremerey]

I am counting the days! Today I did an event job. The D500 nailed the most difficult AF situations, impossible to do by hand, hectic children in a crowd, only split seconds in the open, the D600 wrecked super easy situations like slowly moving children in front of a crowd backdrop. The photos that came out just right are superb, but for super shallow DOF 1.4/105E I need the fifth generation AF to match the blade of sharpness that is but so thin. The D600 is clearly not made fir the task.

[chambeshi]

Fairly comprehensive review of the D850 with respect to Wildlife Photography by Richard Peters
https://www.richardpeters.co.uk/nikon-d850-review-the-best-wildlife-photography-camera-ever-made/

NR just posted on D850 Autofocus including short videos:

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/09/01/nikon-d850-camera-autofocus-af-coverage.aspx/#more-115697

More Comparisons - high ISO performance in D800E and D850
https://nikonrumors.com/2017/08/31/nikon-d850-vs-d800e-high-iso-comparison.aspx/#more-115752

More Coverage
https://nikonrumors.com/2017/08/30/nikon-d850-additional-coverage.aspx/

[David H. Hartman]

...so now everyone knows I haven't touched a modern inkjet printer or even read a review in over a decade. 

[Frank Fremerey]

Suffering through last week with thousands of pictures taken on 4 major events I have an intuition that the 1.4/58G will shine on the D850. I feel the lens by far outperforms the 24MP of my D600 and even outperforms the pixel density of the D500. I am really looking forward to the NeoNoct / D850 combination. The Noct is already great on the D600, but...