Author Topic: Effect of sensor size on maximum (numerical) allowable aperture  (Read 3964 times)

ArthurDent

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Suppose I have data on a lens that was tested on a D1 (2.7 megapixel sensor size) and the verdict was the lens is good up to f/16 and after that diffraction became an issue. Now I want to perhaps purchase and use that lens on a D500 (20+ megapixel sensor size). Without redoing the test (and therefore having to buy or rent the lens), is there a quick way to determine at what f-stop diffraction should start limiting the lens?  How does the overall sensor size affect the result (DX vs. FX)? Thanks for any thoughts.

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Effect of sensor size on maximum (numericall) allowable aperature
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2017, 14:48:56 »
16*sqrt(2.7/20) = 5.9 (approximately)

ArthurDent

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Re: Effect of sensor size on maximum (numericall) allowable aperature
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2017, 15:21:03 »
16*sqrt(2.7/20) = 5.9 (approximately)

 Does that holds true for FX cameras like the D810 as well? The equation yields an f-stop value of 4.4 on a 36 megapixel camera.  So, for example, if I wanted to use the 28-105mm, f/3.5–4.5 lens (which Bjorn's database says is good up to f/16 tested on a D1) on the D810, at the long end I'd possibly be diffraction limited wide open? Thanks.

Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Effect of sensor size on maximum (numericall) allowable aperature
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2017, 16:50:08 »
I have doubts about the validity of regarding the format as a critical 'aperture' as such. The resolving power of a given lens will not change when it is mounted on a different camera. However, there will be an interplay between the requirements of the image to be created, [pixel] resolution of the sensor, and what the lens can deliver under given conditions.

David H. Hartman

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Re: Effect of sensor size on maximum (numericall) allowable aperature
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2017, 18:00:16 »
There is a difference between when one can detect a loss of clarity between pixel level inspection and practical use.

An example in film might be when the negative effects of diffraction might be seen with a quality 10x grain focuser in a 4x5" negative and when it will be seen in an enlarged print.

Diffraction will be a problem sooner for DX than FX if the image from DX is enlarged 12x while a similar image from FX is enlarged only 8x.

At pixel level diffraction for DX and FX will be identical if the same lens is used. Almost identical if different lenses are used. In practice I assume FX has about a one stop advantage over DX. My guide is f/8 for DX and f/11 FX. For maximum sharpness try to use f/4.5 to f/6.3 or f/8 with some zooms.

Dave

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I didn't address pixel density. At pixel level more density will make any image fault more obvious. In practice diffraction will be more obvious the greater the pixel density so long as other image faults don't obscure it.

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This thread may be a bucket of live anchovies. The 😈 made me type that.

Dave
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Les Olson

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Re: Effect of sensor size on maximum (numericall) allowable aperature
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2017, 18:33:55 »
A point of light - a star, eg, is not imaged as a point by any optical system, but as a blurred disc.  The smallest that disc can be is when it is affected only by diffraction and not by optical flaws - aberrations.  The blurred disc formed by diffraction is called an Airy disc.  The Rayleigh criterion says that, under perfect conditions, you can just distinguish the image of two point sources if the first dark circles of the Airy disc do not overlap.  The smaller the Airy disc, the closer together two points can be and still be separated: ie, the higher the resolution.   

The diameter of the first dark circle of the Airy disc in microns = 1.22 x wavelength of the illuminating light in microns (green light is 0.55 and that value is often used) x F, the aperture.  So the Airy disc is at its smallest, and the resolution is highest, when the aperture is biggest (this is why astronomers always want bigger telescopes).  Diffraction is reducing resolution every time the aperture gets smaller.  The catch is that some important lens aberrations, that reduce resolution, are also worse when the aperture is larger.  As the aperture gets smaller the Airy disc gets bigger but resolution increases because the improvement in the aberrations outweighs the bigger Airy disc, until an aperture is reached where the aberrations are not getting any better but the Airy disc is still getting bigger, and resolution starts to decline.  A lens with no aberrations is said to be "diffraction limited" (full stop): its blur circles are the size of the Airy discs.  A lens where the bigger Airy disc outweighs the reduced aberrations at (say) f/8 is said to be "diffraction limited at f/8". 

That has nothing to do with the sensor you put it in front of, just with how bad the aperture-dependent aberrations are.

When people say that a particular sensor "needs" a lens that is diffraction limited at (say) f/8 they are talking about something different.

To reconstruct accurately a signal of frequency x cycles per second you have to sample at 2x cycles per second.  The smaller the sensor elements in a sensor ("pixels") the higher the sampling frequency and the higher the resolution.  The D500 has 4.2 micron sensor elements ("pixels"), so it is sampling at 238/mm, so it can reconstruct a signal at 119/mm, or blurred discs 8.4 microns across.  In contrast, a Nikon 1 V3 has 2.51 micron pixels and the P500 has 1.54 micron pixels.  So the V3 is sampling at 398/mm and can reconstruct signals of 199/mm and the P500 is sampling at 649/mm and could reconstruct signals at 325/mm.  But they can only do that if the blurred discs are smaller than 5 microns in the case of the V3 or 3.08 microns in the case of the P500.  The Airy discs are the critical sizes  at f/11 for the D500, f/7.45 for the V3 and f/2.3 for the P500.  So the D500 "needs" a lens that is diffraction limited at f/11 and the V3 "needs" a lens which is diffraction limited at f/7.45 and the P500 "needs" a lens that is diffraction limited at f/2.3, but only in the sense that otherwise you do not take full resolution advantage of the sensor. 

A statement that a lens is "diffraction limited at f/16" means that the measured resolution increased, or was pretty much the same, until f/16 and then got worse.  But everything depends on how good your measurements of resolution are, and if they are made by target reproduction photography they may not be very good at all. 



MFloyd

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Re: Effect of sensor size on maximum (numericall) allowable aperature
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2017, 18:51:56 »
I have difficulties to understand how you can link a relative value such as an aperture e.g. f/16 to a diffraction limit.  Diffraction is in relation to the physical size of the aperture, not it's f-number.  Therefore that you don't have a problem shooting f/64 with a 8x10" camera.
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Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Effect of sensor size on maximum (numerical) allowable aperture
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2017, 19:06:34 »
Overall magnification through the imaging and reproduction chain plays a paramount role. The f/64 capture with the 8x10" will not be very sharp compare to more 'optimal' apertures for that lens, but the requirement for subsequent enlargement is small. Thus one ends with the proverbial 'razor sharp' image or print. For the smaller formats, you'll get 'empty magnification' as soon as the total magnification demands more detail than what the optics and sensor can deliver.

By the way, I sometimes amuse myself with the Ultra-Micro-Nikkor 28 mm f/1.8 on a (modified) Nikon 1V1. That lens is indeed able to outresolve the CX sensor.

dslater

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Re: Effect of sensor size on maximum (numericall) allowable aperature
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2017, 19:14:04 »
I have difficulties to understand how you can link a relative value such as an aperture e.g. f/16 to a diffraction limit.  Diffraction is in relation to the physical size of the aperture, not it's f-number.  Therefore that you don't have a problem shooting f/64 with a 8x10" camera.

Diffraction effects at the focal plane are a function of both the clear aperture and the focal length. Increasing the aperture decreases the size of the Airy disk, Increasing the focal length increases the size of the Airy disk. The result is that the linear size of the Airy disk depends  only of the f-number. Shooting at f/64 on an 8x10 has more to do with the fact that you don't enlarge the negative much when printing compared to using a smaller format.

MFloyd

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Re: Effect of sensor size on maximum (numerical) allowable aperture
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2017, 21:23:06 »
I missed this one. Of course
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ArthurDent

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Re: Effect of sensor size on maximum (numerical) allowable aperture
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2017, 03:03:53 »
I missed this one. Of course

Please feel free to weigh in. I'm interested in learning as much as I can.

Les Olson

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Re: Effect of sensor size on maximum (numericall) allowable aperature
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2017, 10:14:42 »
I have difficulties to understand how you can link a relative value such as an aperture e.g. f/16 to a diffraction limit.  Diffraction is in relation to the physical size of the aperture, not it's f-number. 

The minimum angular separation of two just-resolvable points in object space, as defined by the Rayleigh criterion, is related to the physical aperture, not the F number.  The size of the Airy disc in image space is related to the F number. There is a handy tutorial at http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/lightandcolor/diffractionintro.html

Martin Kellermann

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Re: Effect of sensor size on maximum (numerical) allowable aperture
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2017, 10:45:56 »
The mathematics of diffraction for a circular aperture of a focussed lens simplifies to the equation:
q ≈ 1.22fλ/D where
q = the radius of the Airy disc (centre to the middle of the first dark ring); f = focal length of the lens; λ = wavelength of light; and D = aperture diameter. Most textbooks on optics show how this equation is derived. The Airy disc is therefore dependant on the f-stop (=f/D) of the focussed lens. If the lens is not focussed, the equations become much more complicated.

Martin Kellermann

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Re: Effect of sensor size on maximum (numerical) allowable aperture
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2017, 11:18:05 »
(Previous post continued - finger trouble :)) The Rayleigh criterion in resolvable angular separation simplifies to Δθ ≈ 1.22λ/D because q/f=sinθ≈Δθ, e.g. only dependant on the diameter of the aperture. But now we are talking about seconds of arc and no longer in millimetres.

MFloyd

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Re: Effect of sensor size on maximum (numerical) allowable aperture
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2017, 11:37:51 »
Thank you all for your valuable input and feedback. I will have to dig again in my physics handbooks to refresh old memories, something I always enjoy 😉
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