Author Topic: Sony introduces the a9  (Read 33330 times)

MFloyd

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Re: Sony introduces the a9
« Reply #165 on: May 02, 2017, 22:57:04 »
I'm certainly one who has "sinned" many times, by deviating from the initial subject 😉
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Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Sony introduces the a9
« Reply #166 on: May 02, 2017, 23:12:52 »
We are more interested in content contribution than in sins committed ...

Les Olson

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Re: Sony introduces the a9
« Reply #167 on: May 03, 2017, 12:15:52 »
It is if you're trying to make shots like this:

Well, since our vision has low acuity under low light conditions, it is, from a photographic point of view, an open question whether the greatest possible sharpness is desirable for low light images. 

Leaving that aside, the technical question is where vibration caused by mirror motion ranks on the list of things that might adversely affect an image taken with a 300mm lens at 1/25 sec: atmospheric conditions, your finger on the shutter, vibration from passing trucks, the fact that you have an A9 and the only 300mm lens for it is a slow 70-300 zoom, etc.  The answer is "way down", but if everything else has been controlled and you feel you need to eliminate the effect of mirror motion, fine: the camera is, obviously, on a tripod so you use mirror lock-up if you have it or shutter delay if you don't. 

The question is whether cameras that don't have a mirror have an advantage because they never have mirror slap.  The answer is that they do not, because in any circumstances when mirror slap might have an effect - usual or unusual for an individual as those circumstances may be - it is trivially easy to eliminate it. 

Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Sony introduces the a9
« Reply #168 on: May 03, 2017, 13:16:39 »
Well, since our vision has low acuity under low light conditions, it is, from a photographic point of view, an open question whether the greatest possible sharpness is desirable for low light images. 


That is a very imprecise and hardly poignant description. Many of us live in countries where light levels are pretty low for long periods of the year. Yet we strive for sharp images low light or not, and can be highly successful for cases when vibrations external or internal to the camera/lens are under control. I said it before and it bears repeating, 1/25 sec is often a "fast" shutter speed as far as I am concerned.


MFloyd

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Re: Sony introduces the a9
« Reply #169 on: May 03, 2017, 13:50:47 »
My major sources to low speed blur are tripod instability (I dont have a quality tripod) and VR; for the latter see illustration below: the star trail starts with a hook when the VR is activated:
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Jakov Minić

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Re: Sony introduces the a9
« Reply #170 on: May 03, 2017, 14:03:11 »
MFloyd, that looks more like you tripping the shutter than VR.
Why do you use VR when using a tripod?
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Sony introduces the a9
« Reply #171 on: May 03, 2017, 14:23:16 »
Well, since our vision has low acuity under low light conditions, it is, from a photographic point of view, an open question whether the greatest possible sharpness is desirable for low light images. 

I find a key factor in my interest in photography to be able to record something that our naked eyes can't quite see clearly. Anyway, this is such a common situation in landscape photography (for landscape, acceptable light quality often comes with penalty in brightness) that it would be quite limiting to not have some kind of facility to avoid mirror and shutter shake. If you don't need it you don't need it but where I live, those speeds are normal or a bit on the fast side (many now seem to use filters to get the exposure time to seconds, but I don't like the effect much, so I'll stick to my 1/25s thank you very much). "More often than not" rather than something unusual.

Quote
Leaving that aside, the technical question is where vibration caused by mirror motion ranks on the list of things that might adversely affect an image taken with a 300mm lens at 1/25 sec: atmospheric conditions, your finger on the shutter, vibration from passing trucks, the fact that you have an A9 and the only 300mm lens for it is a slow 70-300 zoom, etc.  The answer is "way down", but if everything else has been controlled and you feel you need to eliminate the effect of mirror motion, fine: the camera is, obviously, on a tripod so you use mirror lock-up if you have it or shutter delay if you don't. 

I don't find that to be correct. When photographing nature, one is typically not affected by passing trucks. Atmospherics can have an effect but all effects which reduce image sharpness are cumulative and I want to eliminate those that I can. The subject may not be so very far away, it could be a rock some 10 meters from shore, with beautiful ice formations that glows nicely in the pre-sunrise light. So in this distance atmospheric degradation isn't such a problem. Yes, almost all my shots that are of static subjects are taken on tripod, even if I can use a fast shutter speed for landscape (rare), since I want to precisely control the composition and use the lowest possible ISO, and stop down the lens. With a tele, hand held shots tend to vary greatly in composition from shot to shot due to the difficulty of holding it precisely fixed. So a tripod solves this problem and many others.

Quote
The question is whether cameras that don't have a mirror have an advantage because they never have mirror slap.  The answer is that they do not, because in any circumstances when mirror slap might have an effect - usual or unusual for an individual as those circumstances may be - it is trivially easy to eliminate it.

It is easy to avoid it but there are some hoops one must go through to avoid mirror and shutter shake in Nikons. In the D810, EFCS is tied to the M-UP release mode and to get precise timing and avoid vibrations you have to use a remote release with it, and for a moment between the two button presses required, you lose both optical view and the LCD  LV of the subject, so timing is based on viewing past the camera with one's eyes. Setting these things up can take a bit of time. For landscape and close-ups, I don't mind going through the hoops but if one is working on living subjects, and want to take advantage of vibration free shooting, there can be an issue. In the D5, LV + M-UP + EFCS can be combined behind a single press of the remote release button, though, but I don't know if it is genuinely delay free. Anyway, Nikon is introducing electronic shutter gradually in their cameras it seems and they're being very cautious about it. There can be rolling shutter effects and uneven exposure in some cases (with PC lenses when movements are used with fast shutter speed) and this may be why Nikon doesn't allow access to the electronic shutter without the hoops. They probably don't want us using it by accident and getting unexpected artifacts. I guess in future cameras we can expect easier to use variants of this feature.

Some users do claim that mirror and shutter vibration shooting does result in sharper hand held captures as well, e.g. dpreview staff wrote an article about it and they indicated that they were able to get better sharpness hand holding the D810 in M-UP mode with EFCS and just pressing twice than in normal shooting mode but of course there is the viewfinder blackout that makes this mode of operation impractical in that camera. Personally I am fine with the limitations of my DSLR setups (including the hoops one must pass through sometimes) and simply prefer to use a wide aperture and fast shutter speed to get a higher confidence of avoiding subject movement effects as well as camera shake - when the subject is of such a nature that it can move. And I love the optical viewfinder for photographing subjects that can, and do move.

Les Olson

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Re: Sony introduces the a9
« Reply #172 on: May 03, 2017, 18:01:47 »
Many of us live in countries where light levels are pretty low for long periods of the year. Yet we strive for sharp images low light or not, and can be highly successful for cases when vibrations external or internal to the camera/lens are under control.

My point was simply that MFloyd had not said why he cared about the sharpness of that image, and since our visual acuity is low in the dark, less sharp images of night scenes are generally perceived to have greater visual fidelity.  Of course, that may not be the aim, but if it was the aim you wouldn't worry about mirror slap, would you?   

If a photographer has photographic reasons for wanting an image as sharp as possible, fine.  But she has to have reasons for that choice, just as she has to have reasons to choose colour or B&W, or print on matte paper or gloss.  The point is to not make sharpness a fetish whose value is independent of the role it may play in helping the particular image convey its meaning.  As Ansel Adams said "... there is nothing more disturbing than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept" (The Camera, p73). 

Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Sony introduces the a9
« Reply #173 on: May 03, 2017, 18:57:52 »
Sorry, I don't follow your train of thoughts at all. Night images in fact can be perceptibly *sharper* because light is less "white". A fact that has been well known among nature photographers for a long time.

However, I agree that sharpness on its own, without other aspects of the image bring taken into consideration, is not tremendously important.  Nevertheless, if it is deemed necessary, there is no reason the photographer shouldn't get sharp images no matter what shutter speed is used. it is all a matter of proper support.

David H. Hartman

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Re: Sony introduces the a9
« Reply #174 on: May 03, 2017, 19:42:20 »
Tripod weight per se has no bearing at all on the issue of movement prevention. The mechanical coupling of the gear to the tripod does, however.

I can't agree with this at all. Mass equals inertia. A balance needs to be achieved. Even air has mass and when it's moving it can move objects. If air had no mass it could not move a feather.  A light tripod is a smart breeze will almost certainly move some.

Now what I'm talking about is lowering the center of gravity. Giving the wind less to catch. Now is the lens is light and long and the hood catches the wind you'll likely have movement. That depends on various things including the lens tripod collar if it's a telephoto with one. If it's a camera body a tight fitting L-bracket will help greatly. For a tripod head I'm using a Sinar 2-way pan-tilt head designed for or as a part of an 8x10" camera.

Even my somewhat flimsy Bogen 3021 tripod is more steady when it's lowered, the last leg sections are not used (they flex, they are "squishy").

I bought the heavy Bogen video tripod because the light and rigged Linhof Expert Twin Shank Profile Tripod, 003317 Tripod is too light to hold a 4x5" monorail tripod when it's pointing down at say a 45 degree angle. It almost toppled forward once but I caught the camera. The tripod head is a 2-way pan-tilt Linhof Prof. Panhead II, 003618. I don't like that head.  The tilt locks very nicely but the pan lock creeps and I think allows movement. Maybe I'll modify it for a monopod as a pan movement isn't needed.

Anyway the weight of a tripod is a factor and it does matter particularly in a smart breeze.

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MFloyd

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Re: Sony introduces the a9
« Reply #175 on: May 03, 2017, 19:55:27 »
MFloyd, that looks more like you tripping the shutter than VR.
Why do you use VR when using a tripod?

Jakov, this was just a small test, to see when triggering the AF (and the VR) there was some impact.  I have the same image without VR.  Short test, for my own, and of which I do not guarantee its scientific thoroughness.
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Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Sony introduces the a9
« Reply #176 on: May 03, 2017, 20:04:16 »
"Anyway the weight of a tripod is a factor and it does matter particularly in a smart breeze. "

Put your camera directly onto the ground. Cannot have a more massive support ... or lower centre of gravity ... Yet the issue of camera vibration is not solved at all.

By the way, even my most massive Sachtler weighs only 4 kg. Yet it readily supports a 1200 mm lens at very slow speeds provided a fluid head is put into use. My travel Sachtler weighs about 1 kg, yet I have shot 800 mm lenses on it.

pluton

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Re: Sony introduces the a9
« Reply #177 on: May 03, 2017, 21:16:41 »
The issue at hand is the unwanted movement of the picture recording apparatus, a problem magnified (ha ha) by the use of lenses with a relatively narrow field of view.
There seems to be a question about the relative importance of large mass and it's accompanying inertia acting to restrain/minimize/slow down movement, versus structural rigidity and it's accompanying prevention of movement.
 It seems to me that, if possible, it would be better to prevent movement than merely reduce it.


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charlie

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Re: Sony introduces the a9
« Reply #178 on: May 03, 2017, 21:19:28 »
David, you make some valid theoretical arguments. It seems the point Bjørn is making however is that good design and manufacturing is of equal if not more importance in tripod stability than weight alone.

You're flimsy Bogen is more stable when lowered not only because of the lower center of gravity but also because of the lower level of design and quality of parts/tolerances used to manufacture it.

Les Olson

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Re: Sony introduces the a9
« Reply #179 on: May 04, 2017, 12:06:00 »
The issue at hand is the unwanted movement of the picture recording apparatus, a problem magnified (ha ha) by the use of lenses with a relatively narrow field of view.
There seems to be a question about the relative importance of large mass and it's accompanying inertia acting to restrain/minimize/slow down movement, versus structural rigidity and it's accompanying prevention of movement.

If you apply a force to an object (ie, hit it) you make it vibrate (ie, you make a noise).  The loudness of the noise is less if the material the object is made from is stiffer, but is unrelated to the mass of the object.  The frequency of the noise is reduced by both more stiffness and more mass (you can test this by walking around the house tapping solid wooden objects: the heavier they are the lower the pitch but the loudness is the same, but if you tap a metal object and a wooden one of the same weight the sound of the metal one is both softer and lower pitched).  The speed with which the vibrations decay is also less if the material is stiffer and if the object is heavier. 

If you put your camera on a tripod you are increasing the mass, if the camera and the tripod are connected tightly enough to form a single mass.  If you have a relatively expensive camera you are probably not increasing the stiffness, because the camera and the tripod are made of the same sort of stuff.  So, on a tripod the shutter sound should be distinctly lower in pitch, and shorter - often heard as "crisper" - but will not be softer. 

Effective mass coupling between the camera and the tripod is not easy to achieve, and a lot of camera gear seems to be designed to make it harder - eg, the quick-release plates with a sheet of rubber on the top.  If your camera does not have a distinctly lower pitched shutter sound on your current tripod you may need a better quick-release plate, not a better tripod.  For the same reason a camera with a metal or carbon fibre frame and one that is tightly assembled will have a lower pitched and crisper shutter sound than one that has a plastic frame or is poorly assembled (like the doors on an expensive car).