Author Topic: Where companies are in the market (per Thom Hogan)  (Read 11916 times)

RobOK

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Where companies are in the market (per Thom Hogan)
« on: January 25, 2017, 02:23:33 »
I liked this article:

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/what-camera-would-you-pick.html

It's a hypothetical what would you chose if you were starting from scratch. For me it would be a toss up between Nikon and Fuji. If I had no lenses (i.e, really starting from scratch), probably Fuji for me.

Rob.

MFloyd

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Re: Where companies are in the market (per Thom Hogan)
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2017, 09:28:05 »
Very interesting article. Personally ? If I would do it again ? Nikon for sure, although all this started more than 40 years ago, almost by accident, as most of my friends where on Canon. If I would, at that time, bought a Canon, I would probably still be on Canon .... 😊
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John Koerner

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Re: Where companies are in the market (per Thom Hogan)
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2017, 18:39:55 »
Don't like Thom Hogan's tone.

I just switched to Nikon ... after 7 years shooting Canon.

I was less concerned with Canon's "marketplace position" than I was with its sensor position ... always behind everyone else.

I replaced my two 7Ds with a D810 and a D500 ... and it's nice knowing I am shooting the best I can do (sans the D5).

As a wildlife shooter, Fuji doesn't have anywhere near the options of Nikon.

Sony was attractive, but the full-functionality of its cameras is still way behind. (Plus I don't want to have to spend extra for adapters.)

Nikon offers the best image quality, plus the most options.

Canon offers the same multitude of options, but not the best possible image quality.

That and the fact I really like the idea of being able to purchase and try elder lenses with Nikon ... that can't be done with Canon (Fuji, or anyone else).

MILLIREHM

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Re: Where companies are in the market (per Thom Hogan)
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2017, 23:28:54 »
Fortunately i don't have to start from scratch any more
Wolfgang Rehm

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Re: Where companies are in the market (per Thom Hogan)
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2017, 23:53:35 »
Don't like Thom Hogan's tone.

I just switched to Nikon ... after 7 years shooting Canon.

I was less concerned with Canon's "marketplace position" than I was with its sensor position ... always behind everyone else.

I replaced my two 7Ds with a D810 and a D500 ... and it's nice knowing I am shooting the best I can do (sans the D5).

As a wildlife shooter, Fuji doesn't have anywhere near the options of Nikon.

Sony was attractive, but the full-functionality of its cameras is still way behind. (Plus I don't want to have to spend extra for adapters.)

Nikon offers the best image quality, plus the most options.

Canon offers the same multitude of options, but not the best possible image quality.

That and the fact I really like the idea of being able to purchase and try elder lenses with Nikon ... that can't be done with Canon (Fuji, or anyone else).

I like what you wrote.
And, I would add the D4 or D4s for sure to the list of amazing cameras. (I would grab it from a bag before the D810 or D500, but that's just me).
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elsa hoffmann

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Re: Where companies are in the market (per Thom Hogan)
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2017, 09:25:49 »
Fortunately i don't have to start from scratch any more

I am with Wolfgang here :) Fortunately I don't have to start from scratch - again.

Been there done that - Nikon - Canon - Nikon : and lots a LOT OF $$$$$ in the switching back especially. No one wanted my Canon gear!

However - I will never tell someone to switch - each to his own and what suits his hand and eye.

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rosko

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Re: Where companies are in the market (per Thom Hogan)
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2017, 13:15:06 »
Canon offers the same multitude of options, but not the best possible image quality.

John, are you sure you don't regret your MP-E 65mm as macro photographer ?

There is no equivalent in Nikon system and unfortunately no compatibility or adaptability between Canon lenses and Nikon body. ::)

No Nikon bashing intended, though ! ;)
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Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Where companies are in the market (per Thom Hogan)
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2017, 13:24:03 »
Every system tends to have a particular 'gem' not found elsewhere. If that particular item is of vital importance, one might consider buying it with a matching camera to which it is literally glued.

The Canon MPE-65 might be such a lens, the UV-Nikkor is another example for Nikon aficionados. I'm sure there are many more.

No harm looking over the fences once in a while. However, "switching" back and forth constitutes a heavy financial drain.

MILLIREHM

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Re: Where companies are in the market (per Thom Hogan)
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2017, 13:44:32 »
I am with Wolfgang here :) Fortunately I don't have to start from scratch - again.

Been there done that - Nikon - Canon - Nikon : and lots a LOT OF $$$$$ in the switching back especially. No one wanted my Canon gear!

However - I will never tell someone to switch - each to his own and what suits his hand and eye.
:-)

Feeling lucky having started with Nikon and never switched.  Most of the time i did not regret it (except when Canon brought USM, VR and advanced AF and nikon did not move and then again when the 70-200/2,8 was released as G-design.
Wolfgang Rehm

MILLIREHM

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Re: Where companies are in the market (per Thom Hogan)
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2017, 13:56:15 »
It is a fact that Canon bodies have it easier to use other lenses than Nikon. Bjørn mentioned the gems that come to mind at first. I would add the 10 mm OP fisheye or the 200-400 and 14-24 mm Nikkors that had nothing similar in the Canon system for years and the Canon 17 mm T/S the other way round (we have the 19 now). Nothing against a dedicated body for a specific lens, dont like the Canon menus and interfaces personally.

The Canon MPE-65 is something I'd wish to have from Nikon, lets see what future brings
Wolfgang Rehm

RobOK

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Re: Where companies are in the market (per Thom Hogan)
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2017, 15:26:57 »
Don't like Thom Hogan's tone.


I can appreciate that, he writes in a more critical tone. I do think it is important to understand how your chosen company supports customers and thinks about product development.

He's pretty positive on Nikon:

Nikon FX (with a caveat). There's simply no questioning how good the D750, D810, and D5 are. Don't even bother. That's despite the fact that the D750 and D810 are two years old and are due for replacement soon; they're so good that at the end of their life they still kick butt. If you gravitate to a full frame DSLR, the case can be made that these three models are "best in class." Coupled with Nikon's deep and broad F-mount lens lineup, there shouldn't be anything you can't do. The caveat this time has to do with Nikon support. There's been clear erosion in the company-to-customer relationship with Nikon.

Rob.


John Koerner

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Re: Where companies are in the market (per Thom Hogan)
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2017, 15:34:06 »
John, are you sure you don't regret your MP-E 65mm as macro photographer ?

You are an insightful person, Rosko :)

It was the MP-E 65mm that actually kept me with Canon for so long ... did not want to abandon this lens :'(

The trouble was, my 7D was sooo far behind, in sensor technology, that I began to grow impatient for a replacement

When Canon came out with the 7D Mk II ... I was underwhelmed. It did literally nothing excellent.

Brand new, the 7D Mk II was already mediocre. All it did was burn so-so images faster than its predecessor to the memory card.

I figured I would wait for Canon's next 5D ... and the 5DSr came close to tempting me ... but it, too, was (essentially) a giant, high-res, but (ultimately) mediocre sensor.

That was when I ditched my Canon cameras and moved to Nikon.



There is no equivalent in Nikon system and unfortunately no compatibility or adaptability between Canon lenses and Nikon body. ::)

No equivalents, true, but there are workarounds.

For one thing, the MP-E 65mm isn't a truly high-quality optic; it is only convenient. For another, it is useless for anything but macro.

In discovering Nikon still had the AI and Ai-S manual lenses, that could be reversed and still retain aperture control, I found my solution to the problem of "how to do" high-mag macro  work ... just use Ai-S lenses, reversed ;D

The glass quality of the better Ai-S lenses is at least as good as the MP-E, and I can orient them properly and have decent wide-angle lenses.

Here are a couple shots I took with a 28mm, reversed, for 2.4x lifesize:





Even when I had the MPE, I rarely went over 3x lifesize ... I was usually in the 1.5 to 3x lifesize range, so between my 50mm and 28mm  AI-S lenses, reversed, I am good.

(Beyond 3x, you need a studio, really).



No Nikon bashing intended, though ! ;)

I do bash Canon a little bit, because I was a big fan of theirs. When the 7D first came out, it bested Nikon's D300.

However, Nikon quickly came out with the D3x, and then the D700. When it came out with the D800/D810, Canon sensors were pretty obsolete ... and a lot of people switched.

I eventually switched too 8)

Sony was a very, very attractive alternative, offering greater lens interchangeability than either ... but I really don't want to fool with adapters.
(By themselves, Sony doesn't have much in the way of lenses; Fuji even less options.)

The reason I went with Nikon is their virtually-limitless options ... and everytime they come out with something new, they set a new precedent.

When it first came out, the D810 blew everything away.
2.5 years later, the D810 still has the best base ISO capability.
The Nikon D5 and D4s lead in high ISO capability.
The D5 and D500 both have industry-leading 3D AF tracking.

Every single FL super-telephoto lens Nikkor has made beats every single Canon equivalent.

Unlike the 7D Mk II, Nikon's D500 is a benchmark pretty much everywhere in its class.
When the 7D II came out, it won a Silver award at DP Review.
When the D500 came out, in won a Gold award, Best High-End DSLR, and Best Overall Product, period, for the whole year.

Nikon's technology is exciting ... not disappointing.

Companies like Sony and Fuji pretty much appeal to folks shooting "normal" stuff (landscapes, portraits), as all these companies offer are "normal" focal length lenses and that's it. Fuji has nothing to offer a serious wildlife shooter. Nothing. (Sony's does have some super-telephoto lenses, but they are ultra-expensive, and totally inferior, to Nikon and Canon super-telephotos. Sony super-telephotos are based on the elder Minolta designs and are junk by comparison to Canon and Nikon's best.)

For sports and wildlife, Canon and Nikon are the only truly complete options.

Canon and Nikon have equivalent super-telephotos, but Nikon has the edge.
Nikon also has the better sensors as well as better AF systems.

Every edge goes to Nikon over Canon for wildlife shooting ... except the 1DxII has better 4K video.

Canon's MP-E 65 was a definite edge, as a lone tool, over Nikon ... but Nikon's other macro lenses are better than Canon's, and Nikon's sensors are better than Canon's, and (by reversing AI-S lenses) I can get the same "beyond 1:1 macro shots" as I could with the MP-E ... and I get to capture my efforts on a better sensor.

Cheers,

Jack

MILLIREHM

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Re: Where companies are in the market (per Thom Hogan)
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2017, 17:12:30 »
There are a lot of Macro Options an Micro nikkors
Nikon had its old set of 4 Macro Nikkors (Multiphot) as well but they are not too easy to apply to field work
Nikon should consider bringing a new option - When the Canon lens is mediocre then Nikon has a chance to do better
Wolfgang Rehm

rosko

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Re: Where companies are in the market (per Thom Hogan)
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2017, 17:31:05 »
I eventually switched too 8)

Thanks for all these explanations !

So, we both gave up with Canon, but not for the same reasons :

When I did, about 40 years ago, I was really pissed off because they decided to change their mount from FD to EF, making my FD range obsolete as I wanted to upgrade my body. This is how I came in ''Nikon galaxy'' with the F4... :)

I don't regret it but I have to admit that I got some (minor) disappointments with the Df mostly mechanical.

I just hope Nikon isn't tempted to reduce the quality of the material to save money or going deliberately toward ''planned obsolescence''.

I haven't encountered such issues with my D70, D300 and D700 before.

I am still happy with Nikon, but these changes in quality/reliability alters my trust for Nikon...However, I didn't read any complaint about the D810 so far. ;)



Francis Devrainne

John Koerner

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Re: Where companies are in the market (per Thom Hogan)
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2017, 18:19:19 »
Thanks for all these explanations !

So, we both gave up with Canon, but not for the same reasons :

When I did, about 40 years ago, I was really pissed of because they decided to change their mount from FD to EF, making my FD range obsolete as I wanted to upgrade my body. This is how I came in ''Nikon galaxy'' with the F4... :)

I would have been pissed off, too, if every lens I had purchased from a company became instantly obsolete.

Lenses are the heaviest investments; camera backs come and go.

The fact I have an "open door" to Nikon's elder lenses is another reason why I am glad I switched; fascinating history :)



I don't regret it but I have to admit that I got some (minor) disappointments with the Df mostly mechanical.

I just hope Nikon isn't tempted to reduce the quality of the material to save money or going deliberately toward ''planned obsolescence''.

I haven't encountered such issues with my D70, D300 and D700 before.

I am still happy with Nikon, but these changes in quality/reliability alters my trust for Nikon...However, I didn't read any complaint about the D810 so far. ;)

If anything, Nikon seems to be gravitating to producing the finest-quality they can (D5, D500, D810, Flourite lenses, 105 f1/4, etc.)

Saving money is good, but not at the expense of quality. My D500 freezes every-so-often, when it can't read the card, but it is still a great camera.

Have never had a single issue with my D810 ... I absolutely love it.

I am 100% happy that I made the switch, and none of these "new" companies are at the head of anything, really.

They come up with some interesting stuff, but have nowhere near the depth, and breadth, of what Nikon offers ... in either cameras or lenses.

Again, they only really appeal to folks who walk around with standard 24 - 100mm lenses.

(Have seen some amazing macro work on the Pentax K1, but again it's just too limited overall for me to take the plunge into Pentax.)

I appreciate the efforts of these new companies, as well as fringe older companies, but the grass isn't truly greener "over there" IMO ... it's as green as it gets right here ;D

Jack