Author Topic: underwater kingfisher etc  (Read 9766 times)

elsa hoffmann

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underwater kingfisher etc
« on: January 12, 2017, 22:51:43 »
I really don't know where to post this - but wanted to share.
If you are able to open the photos large - I couldnt - but I saw the big ones on Facebook - of the diving kingfisher underwater.

Custom built hide - which can be rented - or go build you own

truly something different and if you are dutch speaking - you will also understand!

http://www.djhutfotografie.nl/
facebook link: https://www.facebook.com/pg/Djfotografie/about/?ref=page_internal
"You don’t take a photograph – you make it” – Ansel Adams. Thats why I use photoshop.
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John Geerts

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Re: underwater kingfisher etc
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2017, 23:55:59 »
A cabin with underwater glass.  It's rented most of the time.  I have a bit uncomfortable feeling with it.  Feels like 'trained'  Kingfishers.

elsa hoffmann

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Re: underwater kingfisher etc
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2017, 10:56:00 »
Any situation where you make a plan to get closer is up for debate. Feeding the birds in my garden is not natural. Yet the birds are wild and have learned where to find food. The classic shot of a fish eagle fishing with a fisherman is the same thing - the bird learned where to find food.  Putting owl boxes up, building a bat box, building a feeding station. Putting up a perch, cutting branches to have a better view - one can argue about all of this. Personally I wont hire a hide like that - but I am fascinated by the shots he gets.
"You don’t take a photograph – you make it” – Ansel Adams. Thats why I use photoshop.
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Peter Connan

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Re: underwater kingfisher etc
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2017, 17:13:54 »
Personally, I think you can extend the debate right up to allowing tourists into nature reserves.

We as people have destroyed the animal's natural habitats to the point where there are very few places in the world where wild animals can survive without human intervention. And that human intervention ALWAYS come at a price. Privately owned reserves usually have to make at least as much money as the owner/s could make by more traditional farming on the same ground. Governments all over the world are under immense pressure to provide more land for burgeoning populations.
The result is that wild animals are pretty much always exploited to some or other extent.

The question is, what level/types of exploitation are morally acceptable. And after a lot of thought, I have come to the conclusion that the only rational measure AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED is how the animal is affected by our exploitation.

Thus, as far as I am concerned, if the animal is not harmed, then it is not immoral. And in this situation, presuming that, if food is given, it is either given so irregularly that the birds will not come to rely on it, or so regularly that they can rely on it absolutely, I cannot see the harm.

Rant over, I love these low-level photos. I am often found lying on my stomach, but even that does not get close to these hides. I would love to have the use of one.

In recent times, quite a few have sprung up here in Southern Africa. I know of five, although one is not open to the public, and one is designed specifically for elephant and other mamals, being situated further away from a water-hole.

The remaining three are so expensive that only the well-off can consider them As an example, look at this: http://www.irl.co.za/activities/4-night-photography-package/). I wish there was a local sunken hide at the prices this guy is asking!

elsa hoffmann

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Re: underwater kingfisher etc
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2017, 18:17:56 »
Peter - I am working on it.... Perhaps I should make one here at my place :)
"You don’t take a photograph – you make it” – Ansel Adams. Thats why I use photoshop.
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Peter Connan

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Re: underwater kingfisher etc
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2017, 18:36:36 »
Elsa, that would be very cool!

elsa hoffmann

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Re: underwater kingfisher etc
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2017, 18:46:32 »
Peter - it is an excellent opportunity that this guy created with the kingfishers. (and who ever else dreams these things up)
The underwater images are stunning. Had it been on National Geographic - everyone would have gone crazy. For some reason no one else thinks the images are great.

It is possible to get down at water level at my place - but currently that means you have to get in the water :) put your camera on a floating block - and shoot from there. It has been done by someone I know - just down the waterway from me. Really not too difficult. But devising a drum to get into - the only difficult part would be getting in and out of it
"You don’t take a photograph – you make it” – Ansel Adams. Thats why I use photoshop.
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MILLIREHM

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Re: underwater kingfisher etc
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2017, 20:18:15 »
Hi Elsa
I think these are impressive shots - and still not what would require to be called "controlled conditions" (as with trained Tigers or so). There is a whole lot of nature photography ongoing with feeding and such. I prefere these shots over others where an excavator was used to dig a big hide also touching a breeding hole to do nest photography through glass.
Wolfgang Rehm

Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: underwater kingfisher etc
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2017, 20:50:16 »
The problem isn't primarily with the hides offering opportunity to get much closer to the natural subjects of choice. Far worse is the boring sameness of the ensuing images from participants looking at the similar scenery and thinking of the 35 Euro per day paying rate instead of how to turn the occasion into something unique.

We have organised nature events for whales, sea eagles, brown bears, and what have you. On a personal level the photographers visiting these events might have an enjoyable experience, but the photography from these arrangements are getting worse by the year.

MILLIREHM

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Re: underwater kingfisher etc
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2017, 20:59:45 »
Sooner or later it turns out to be just more of the same
Wolfgang Rehm

elsa hoffmann

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Re: underwater kingfisher etc
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2017, 21:49:33 »
Why the negativity. These are damn fine shots - just because 66 people will photograph them from the same hide - now it's going to be more of the same, so it becomes less good? It's not like there are much in the way of award winning images on NG (most of the time) - in fact - it's more of the same. SO best I don't post another bird or wildlife - it's more of the same - and has been done a brazillion times before. Probably you are all just too polite to tell me my stuff is boring too. At least I participate on this forum, not only do I post regularly - but I take an interest in what is posted. I TAKE AN INTEREST IN NG PEOPLE. Unlike some that just post and never bother to look at someone else's images.

I enjoy the stuff posted on Nikongear - not because they are award winning - but because they are special to those who took the shots. Because it brought them joy. And because I can often see that in the images. And I see they achieved what they set out to do. It's not always about ourselves - sometimes it's about other people too.

If it isn't about the experience of the photographer - but about the shots getting worse and worse - best I don't pull out the BORING MORE OF THE SAME images in the forum. You might then consider closing NG down.

I have to admit I am truly disappointed.  None of us know it all. Clearly some do more than others though.
"You don’t take a photograph – you make it” – Ansel Adams. Thats why I use photoshop.
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Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: underwater kingfisher etc
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2017, 22:08:49 »
Sorry to hear your disappointment, Elsa. However, what I described has developed into a major headache in my part of the world. People have so much more money than talent and are led to believe once they pay to get to specific locations, their photography will be fantastic. We all should know this is just a dream and almost never will materialise.

I'm on the applicant  assessment board for the Norwegian Nature photographers association and see this problem becoming worse all the time. A longer lens and more expensive hide will not trump a lack of talent.

MILLIREHM

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Re: underwater kingfisher etc
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2017, 23:03:09 »

I have to admit I am truly disappointed.  None of us know it all. Clearly some do more than others though.

Sorry Elsa that I contributed to your disappointment.
Please keep in mind that I called this shots impressive. And no your shots are not boring neither the old ones nor the expansion to widlife/outdoor
and we dont stop taking pics though virtually every place  and species have been pictured already and there is enough versatility to find

What i tried to adress was (not too eloquent)
Those setting up outdoor studios do a great job. I have seen other people placing branches for the kingfisher to sit on before the dive. Its their right to make money out of this place like Manfred Delpho did in Germany.
But imho if epigons go on repeatedly using the same setup, this will lead to standardization.

Getting joy and also do so enjoying other peoples joy is a good point.
I am doubtful about the joy derived from buying oneself into a setup like the current one
Wolfgang Rehm

Les Olson

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Re: underwater kingfisher etc
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2017, 11:25:15 »
Why the negativity. These are damn fine shots - just because 66 people will photograph them from the same hide - now it's going to be more of the same, so it becomes less good? 

It is not about how many people do it, it is about their attitude.  There is a story about the difference between French cooking and Italian cooking: if you give a French cook a tomato their aim is to show you how good their cooking is; if you give an Italian cook a tomato their aim is to show you how good the tomato is.  It is the same with nature photography: a photograph of a kingfisher underwater ought to be about how amazing the kingfisher is, not about how amazing the photographer is. 

The trouble with photographing a kingfisher in a perspex tank, or using any kind of baited hide, or using a trained animal, or cooling insects to keep them still, is not that anyone can do it, it is that you have affected the animal's  behaviour, so the photograph is not telling the viewer the truth about the animal, so it can't be about how amazing the animal is.

elsa hoffmann

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Re: underwater kingfisher etc
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2017, 13:08:30 »
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"I have a bit uncomfortable feeling with it.  Feels like 'trained'  Kingfishers."
Subjective observation. And not an observation about the photographs. (which actually is what the post was about)

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boring sameness of the ensuing images from participants looking at the similar scenery and thinking of the 35 Euro per day paying rate instead of how to turn the occasion into something unique.

And this is the norm? People all feel like that? BEST NO ONE ever travels again. You might consider how much the trip is costing you rather than trying to have a good time. And anyway - someone else has been there before.

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We have organised nature events for whales, sea eagles, brown bears, and what have you. On a personal level the photographers visiting these events might have an enjoyable experience, but the photography from these arrangements are getting worse by the year.
Funny that we now have a growing amount of photographers producing a stunning amount of brilliant photographs. You can hardly pick out the good photographers anymore as they are a dime a dozen. Especially since everything has been done before- the challenge to get something different, makes the pressure of getting the better shot, huge.
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Boring sameness of images
are subjective and patronising to those who also want to get THAT SHOT. Who cares if it has been done  - if you want to do it - why should you be discouraged by others? Just because someone else has done it - I shouldn't? Just because someone else doesnt like it - no one else should?

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Sooner or later it turns out to be just more of the same

And that's a problem? Maybe we shouldn't post anything online anymore. If Ansel Adams had internet... BTW thank you - I did notice your kind comment about the shots.

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People have so much more money than talent and are led to believe once they pay to get to specific locations, their photography will be fantastic. We all should know this is just a dream and almost never will materialise.

Can you tell us who these people are because I have never heard of that in my LIFE.  Perhaps they can help me out with a couple of locations.

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I'm on the applicant  assessment board for the Norwegian Nature photographers association and see this problem becoming worse all the time. A longer lens and more expensive hide will not trump a lack of talent.

Your post now includes a longer lens. Slight problem with that statement. I have never heard of anyone saying - go to such-and-such a place and your photography will improve. If ANYTHING is a problem - it's that people are forever being encouraged and led to believe buying NEW GEAR will make them better photographers. Buy a DF and a new 105. Or who's buying the new D500. Oh wait what about the new 600. And go for it guys - buy the new mac too while you are at it. There you go. Better pics. Just look at the clarify, sharpness, bokeh, colour rendering, Speed. Look at the threads posted on NG. If anything - it leads people to believe how important gear is.

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But imho if epigons go on repeatedly using the same setup, this will lead to standardization.
You are under estimating photographers. Since when have we just been happy to get the shot everyone else gets? Are you? Those who are happy with shit - are they photographers or person with camera?

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Attitude ..... The trouble with photographing a kingfisher in a perspex tank, or using any kind of baited hide, or using a trained animal, or cooling insects to keep them still, is not that anyone can do it, it is that you have affected the animal's  behaviour, so the photograph is not telling the viewer the truth about the animal, so it can't be about how amazing the animal is.
How do we know what a person's attitude is when he/she makes a photograph?  How do you know that affecting an animal's behaviour is necessarily bad? And let me remind you YOUR presence and camera affects YOUR behaviour and that of your subject! Very few on this forum (and elsewhere) are animal behaviour experts. Have an opinion - fine - we all have one. How can one judge something it you don't have the facts? I don't - do you?

On a photographic forum - you judge a photo. Not the photographer or his subject. You like it or you don't. To make comments about something one knows nothing about - is unfair. I expected more from this community.
"You don’t take a photograph – you make it” – Ansel Adams. Thats why I use photoshop.
www.phototourscapetown.com
www.elsa.co.za. www.intimateimages.co.za