Author Topic: Downsizing Challenge Part 2: The Siemen's Star  (Read 8185 times)

bjornthun

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Re: Downsizing Challenge Part 2: The Siemen's Star
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2016, 01:27:38 »
When, I look at the result images, the red sircles themselves becoming a part of the patterns created, thus perturbing the result of the Siemens star downscaling slightly. On the other hand I realize their importance as a reference guide.

Does the jpeg compression algorithm affect the visible results?

Andrea B.

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Re: Downsizing Challenge Part 2: The Siemen's Star
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2016, 01:53:23 »
Does the jpeg compression algorithm affect the visible results?

Good question.
My answer:  Not by any amount that I can detect if the JPG is saved at the highest quality.It is difficult to actually illustrate, but I am going to attempt it.I blew up (by 500%) the display of a downsized TIF (made using Bicubic Sharper in PSE11) and made a screen shot of a portion of it. Then I took the same screen shot from that TIF after converting it to a JPG.

When looked as Difference layers in PS, there is no obvious difference between the two screen shots. The extremely minor differences which can be brought out by certain extreme slider settings are mostly very very small contrast changes. There is no difference in detail - no details are lost.(Side Note:  I converted the original PNG created by Simone to a 16-bit TIF before working with it because not all my photo apps will deal with a PNG.)

Photo 1 :: JPG screen shot made from TIF.
Photo 2 :: JPG screen shot made from JPG.

simsurace

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Simone Carlo Surace
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ColinM

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What about Upsizing?
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2016, 11:52:39 »
Hi Andrea, Simone, when you've got downsizing sussed out to your satisfaction, I'd be interested to know your views on Upsizing.

I'm about to prepare some files for an online print service and normally just use PS bicubic - any advice on best options would be appreciated.

charlie

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Re: Downsizing Challenge Part 2: The Siemen's Star
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2016, 18:44:43 »
I've redone the downsize with the new star and this time included Capture One as well as Photoshop Save For Web. This time the stepping down 50%resulted in a final 921 px image so everything was sized to match 921 px.

(1) Photoshop CC Stepped 50% with image size tool - bicubic sharper
(2) Photoshop CC Direct Downsize with image size tool - bicubic sharper
(3) Photoshop CC Direct Downsize with Save For Web Tool - bicubic sharper
(4) Lightroom Direct Downsize no sharpening applied
(5) Capture One 9 Direct Downsize no sharpening applied

charlie

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Re: Downsizing Challenge Part 2: The Siemen's Star
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2016, 18:50:07 »
So.... what is it exactly that we are looking for in all of these anyway  ???

Each one looks a bit different from the others but what exactly makes for a better or worse downsize?

simsurace

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Re: Downsizing Challenge Part 2: The Siemen's Star
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2016, 18:53:30 »
Upsizing is potentially much more complicated. I think bicubic interpolation is a good start.

The 'Save for Web' resize of PS seems to be similar to the direct resize in LR. Not surprising. I wonder why the image size dialog produces a lesser (in my view) result? What was that resize optimized for? Is it a relic from the past?
Simone Carlo Surace
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simsurace

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Re: Downsizing Challenge Part 2: The Siemen's Star
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2016, 19:03:17 »
So.... what is it exactly that we are looking for in all of these anyway  ???

Each one looks a bit different from the others but what exactly makes for a better or worse downsize?

I think there are two features that are appearing again and again in some resizes that I find undesirable:
1) A solid, clearly delineated grey area in the middle,
2) False patterns outside the Nyquist circle (in your factor 8 resize it would be the eighth circle).

The first feature suggests that the low-pass filter (blurring) applied before downsizing is too strong and has a relatively hard cutoff. Therefore we see detail up to a certain point and no detail (also no false detail) beyond that. A real image will likely have some smearing effects, similar as to when too much noise reduction is applied. But this may be tested on an actual image to see whether this intuition is correct. It might look ok with images that are more graphic in nature (no fine textures or none that are interesting), less ok with natural objects where we expect fractal detail (e.g. we are happier to see something that resembles grass, even when the grass is too thin to be resolved, instead of just a green smear. Because the grass is irregular, we are unlikely to see the interference that plagues the Siemens star).

The second feature is due to oversharpening in the detail that can in principle be resolved accurately. In regularly patterned subjects, this will lead to funny patterns that are clearly recognized by the viewer to be fake.

The LR resize and the 'Save for Web' resize of PS don't show either of those two features. The small detail smoothly fades away towards the center and outside circle #8 there are no (or very weak) interference patterns.
Simone Carlo Surace
suracephoto.com

charlie

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Re: Downsizing Challenge Part 2: The Siemen's Star
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2016, 19:53:10 »
It seems the Capture One downsize shows the smoothest fade towards the center and least amount of interference patterns, no?

Akira

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Re: Downsizing Challenge Part 2: The Siemen's Star
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2016, 23:55:06 »
Thanks, folks, for all the effort!

It seems the Capture One downsize shows the smoothest fade towards the center and least amount of interference patterns, no?

Yes, I would agree.  Also, "Save for Web" (bicubic sharper) seems to be handy and fairly efficient, though not as good as C1.
"The eye is blind if the mind is absent." - Confucius

"Limitation is inspiration." - Akira

simsurace

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Re: Downsizing Challenge Part 2: The Siemen's Star
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2016, 00:28:24 »
It seems the Capture One downsize shows the smoothest fade towards the center and least amount of interference patterns, no?
I prefer the other two I mentioned because it is not clear to me what purpose the central blob in the Capture One resize serves. Do you have an idea?
Simone Carlo Surace
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charlie

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Re: Downsizing Challenge Part 2: The Siemen's Star
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2016, 00:35:32 »
I prefer the other two I mentioned because it is not clear to me what purpose the central blob in the Capture One resize serves. Do you have an idea?

I do not have any idea.