NikonGear'23

Gear Talk => Lens Talk => Topic started by: Michael Erlewine on July 11, 2019, 21:59:37

Title: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Michael Erlewine on July 11, 2019, 21:59:37
I wanted to compare a group of high-quality APO lenses as used on the Nikon Z7 Camera with the new Voigtlander 65mm and Voigtlander 110mm APO lenses.

I shot both single shot photos at f/8 and stacked images as well, but am only showing here the single-shot images at f/8 since stacked images involve too much color changes, etc. to put folks here through. They all look good too, but take special color handling.

The lenses are:

Voigtlander 65mm APO-Lanthar f/2.0
Voigtlander 110mm APO-Lanthar f/2.5
and
Nikkor “O” CRT f/1.2
Printing Nikkor 95mm APO f/2.8
Lecia 100mm Elmarit-R f/2.8
Voigtlander 125mm APO-Lanthar f/2.5
Schneider Macro-Varon 85mm f/4.5
El Nikkor APO 105mm f/5.6

The Coneflower was photographed in similar natural light. No sharpening, color crunching, or retouching was done on the images.
These are just as they came out of the Nikon Z7, with enough Levels to make them all about equal in light distribution.

What have I learned from this.
I have learned that all of these lenses, including the new Voigtlanders look pretty good. I did note that perhaps the early bellows lenses (APO El Nikor 105 and the Schneider Macro-Varon APO 85mm are not as up-to-date as to color as some of the other lenses. You be the judge and tell me.
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Michael Erlewine on July 11, 2019, 22:01:10
SECOND GROUP

I wanted to compare a group of high-quality APO lenses as used on the Nikon Z7 Camera with the new Voigtlander 65mm and Voigtlander 110mm APO lenses.

I shot both single shot photos at f/8 and stacked images as well, but am only showing here the single-shot images at f/8 since stacked images involve too much color changes, etc. to put folks here through. They all look good too, but take special color handling.


The lenses are:

Voigtlander 65mm APO-Lanthar f/2.0
Voigtlander 110mm APO-Lanthar f/2.5
and
Nikkor “O” CRT f/1.2
Printing Nikkor 95mm APO f/2.8
Lecia 100mm Elmarit-R f/2.8
Voigtlander 125mm APO-Lanthar f/2.5
Schneider Macro-Varon 85mm f/4.5
El Nikkor APO 105mm f/5.6

The Coneflower was photographed in similar natural light. No sharpening, color crunching, or retouching was done on the images.

These are just as they came out of the Nikon Z7, with enough Levels to make them all about equal in light distribution.

What have I learned from this.

I have learned that all of these lenses, including the new Voigtlanders look pretty good. I did note that perhaps the early bellows lenses (APO El Nikor 105 and the Schneider Macro-Varon APO 85mm are not as up-to-date as to color as some of the other lenses. You be the judge and tell me.
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Chip Chipowski on July 11, 2019, 22:44:15
Michael, I thought of you when I saw this local Nikkor posted for sale.  It is a little pricey but sounds quite exotic:

https://portland.craigslist.org/clc/phd/d/vancouver-fax-ortho-nikkor/6924548066.html
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Michael Erlewine on July 11, 2019, 22:49:14
Michael, I thought of you when I saw this local Nikkor posted for sale.  It is a little pricey but sounds quite exotic:

https://portland.craigslist.org/clc/phd/d/vancouver-fax-ortho-nikkor/6924548066.html

Look like a very large and heavy lens. Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: PeterN on July 12, 2019, 10:53:21
Thank you for the comparison. I downloaded the files and compared them. It is not a very scientific approach but to me the VL125 seems to be the sharpest with the VL65 second when I compare this set of photos. The bokeh of the Nikkor 95mm looks wonderful (perhaps because it is also softer?). But in general each lens shows its merits. 
Regarding sharpness: who said that sharpness is a bourgeois concept?
I thoroughly enjoyed looking at your photos.
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Birna Rørslett on July 12, 2019, 11:27:39
--
Regarding sharpness: who said that sharpness is a bourgeois concept? ---

Henri Cartier-Bresson
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Michael Erlewine on July 12, 2019, 12:36:03
Thank you for the comparison. I downloaded the files and compared them. It is not a very scientific approach but to me the VL125 seems to be the sharpest with the VL65 second when I compare this set of photos. The bokeh of the Nikkor 95mm looks wonderful (perhaps because it is also softer?). But in general each lens shows its merits. 
Regarding sharpness: who said that sharpness is a bourgeois concept?
I thoroughly enjoyed looking at your photos.

It's hard when these are little JPGs. Looking at the originals in ProPhoto RGB in Photoshop is a different story. Certainly the CV-125 is not the sharpest of the bunch. Of course, "sharp" has many definitions, IMO. I look at the interstices dark parts of the images. They all are quite sharp and who knows whether f/8 is the same in all of them. LOL. Who can say?

They all can do the job. The Printing Nikkor, to me, is very sharp, if you look at the sharpest part, but it does fall off to the right. Etc., and so on.

If I posted all the stacked photos, they all are very sharp throughout, but the color suffers from stacking, every time.

I use all of these, but tend to have my favorites, which might not be your favorites.

If I had any of these lenses, I could get the job done. LOL.
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Nasos Kosmas on July 13, 2019, 07:34:39
Difficult comparison cause not the same focal distance
I have seen a lot of interesting fotos with CVs from you and I really appreciate this series of lenses
To my eyes as I see from my iPads screen: el Nikkor apo 105
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Dr Klaus Schmitt on July 13, 2019, 11:32:45
Michael, I thought of you when I saw this local Nikkor posted for sale.  It is a little pricey but sounds quite exotic:

https://portland.craigslist.org/clc/phd/d/vancouver-fax-ortho-nikkor/6924548066.html

Nah, only good for very large format (and I mean VERY large); not Apo and not that sharp !! Had a similar one, sold it to an Asian LF shooter who is VERY happy with it!
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Dr Klaus Schmitt on July 13, 2019, 11:35:57
SECOND GROUP

I wanted to compare a group of high-quality APO lenses as used on the Nikon Z7 Camera with the new Voigtlander 65mm and Voigtlander 110mm APO lenses.

I shot both single shot photos at f/8 and stacked images as well, but am only showing here the single-shot images at f/8 since stacked images involve too much color changes, etc. to put folks here through. They all look good too, but take special color handling.


The lenses are:

Voigtlander 65mm APO-Lanthar f/2.0
Voigtlander 110mm APO-Lanthar f/2.5
and
Nikkor “O” CRT f/1.2
Printing Nikkor 95mm APO f/2.8
Lecia 100mm Elmarit-R f/2.8
Voigtlander 125mm APO-Lanthar f/2.5
Schneider Macro-Varon 85mm f/4.5
El Nikkor APO 105mm f/5.6

...

For me, the Apo EL Nikkor 105mm and Macro Varon 85mm wins, then the Voigtlander 65mm APO-Lanthar - and it is about the overall appearance / impression, not just "sharpness" as I'm with Cartier-Bresson about this... ;-)

Thanks for doing that Michael!!
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Michael Erlewine on July 13, 2019, 12:42:01
For me, the Apo EL Nikkor 105mm and Macro Varon 85mm wins, then the Voigtlander 65mm APO-Lanthar - and it is about the overall appearance / impression, not just "sharpness" as I'm with Cartier-Bresson about this... ;-)

Thanks for doing that Michael!!

Yet, the Apo EL Nikkor 105mm and Macro Varon 85mm have the worst color-coatings or whatever, IMO. This becomes clear with stacking.
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Dr Klaus Schmitt on July 13, 2019, 15:16:54
Yet, the Apo EL Nikkor 105mm and Macro Varon 85mm have the worst color-coatings or whatever, IMO. This becomes clear with stacking.

You mean the lens coating? And why is is worse, does it change the natural representation of the true color of that flower?? Certainly the Apo EL Nikkor has an older type of coating, whereas the Macro Varon should have a modern one, as that lens is just a few years on the market.
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Michael Erlewine on July 13, 2019, 16:10:05
You mean the lens coating? And why is is worse, does it change the natural representation of the true color of that flower?? Certainly the Apo EL Nikkor has an older type of coating, whereas the Macro Varon should have a modern one, as that lens is just a few years on the market.

It's more the stacking process messes with the natural color, IMO.
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Macro_Cosmos on July 17, 2019, 12:01:44
It's more the stacking process messes with the natural color, IMO.
1. Make sure you have a very stable setup
2. Uncheck automatic colour and brightness in Zerene Stacker

Zerene Stacker will compare each image to the first one of your stack and adjust the gamma channel in an attempt to equalise the mean and variance in luminance, this will alter colours slightly or drastically depending on how brightness and contrast were being processed.
This should allow the most accurate colours to be preserved, since you are minimising the software's altering on images.
 
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Michael Erlewine on July 17, 2019, 14:33:47
1. Make sure you have a very stable setup
2. Uncheck automatic colour and brightness in Zerene Stacker

Zerene Stacker will compare each image to the first one of your stack and adjust the gamma channel in an attempt to equalise the mean and variance in luminance, this will alter colours slightly or drastically depending on how brightness and contrast were being processed.
This should allow the most accurate colours to be preserved, since you are minimising the software's altering on images.

Thanks! That is helpful. I have never tried and will, although I do a lot of retouching, so have to see how that setting affects retouching.
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Macro_Cosmos on July 17, 2019, 15:57:55
Thanks! That is helpful. I have never tried and will, although I do a lot of retouching, so have to see how that setting affects retouching.
No problem!
To provide further explanation, ZS usually utilise the very first frame of a stack as a reference, and adjusts the gamma of each subsequent image to match luminance.
The problem with this method is that the first frame for most people is usually devoid of much information. It's usually dominated by out of focus smudge. This confuses the algorithm, causing it to potentially adjust falsely since obviously defocus fields lack contrast, and contrast affects the perception of colour. A work around is using a frame with lots of information as the first image or just uncheck brightness adjustment. I assume you use sunlight, so that option isn't really needed either way. People using flash should adopt the former work around.

It will have a positive affect on retouching since we're denying the software's rights to fondle with stuff we'd rather have unaltered. I have some very dramatic examples if anyone wants to see. Basically having brightness handled results in a completely unusable stacked image.
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Michael Erlewine on July 17, 2019, 17:58:41
No problem!
To provide further explanation, ZS usually utilise the very first frame of a stack as a reference, and adjusts the gamma of each subsequent image to match luminance.
The problem with this method is that the first frame for most people is usually devoid of much information. It's usually dominated by out of focus smudge. This confuses the algorithm, causing it to potentially adjust falsely since obviously defocus fields lack contrast, and contrast affects the perception of colour. A work around is using a frame with lots of information as the first image or just uncheck brightness adjustment. I assume you use sunlight, so that option isn't really needed either way. People using flash should adopt the former work around.

It will have a positive affect on retouching since we're denying the software's rights to fondle with stuff we'd rather have unaltered. I have some very dramatic examples if anyone wants to see. Basically having brightness handled results in a completely unusable stacked image.

Wonderful comments. Thanks so much!
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: PeterN on July 17, 2019, 18:32:02
That is indeed very helpful info!
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZE-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Michael Erlewine on July 19, 2019, 18:59:53
Here is a problem.

I just got the Venus Laowa 100mm F/2.8 2X Ultra Macro APO Lens for Sony FE and put the TechArt TZE-01 adapter on it for use on the Nikon Z 7.

The corded remote switch won't trigger the shutter nor will pressing the shutter release on the Z7. I can focus fine (manual) and adjust the shutter speed, etc. But no picture gets recorded. Any ideas?
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Michael Erlewine on July 19, 2019, 19:28:15
Got help from another forum. These adapters will work, I am told.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pixco-Lens-Adapter-for-Sony-NEX-E-Mount-Lens-to-Nikon-Z-Mount-Camera-Nikon-Z6-Z7/401799095215?hash=item5d8d17a3af:g:ssUAAOSwZoBdFwfp

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kipon-Adapter-for-Sony-E-Mount-Lens-to-Nikon-Z-Full-Frame-Mirrorless-Camera/113714945335?hash=item1a79f05d37:g:CJwAAOSw3Jxcz5LN

The Pixco is only $13-$15. It is said to work instead of the TechArt.
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZE-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Macro_Cosmos on July 20, 2019, 14:18:29
Here is a problem.

I just got the Venus Laowa 100mm F/2.8 2X Ultra Macro APO Lens for Sony FE and put the TechArt TZE-01 adapter on it for use on the Nikon Z 7.

The corded remote switch won't trigger the shutter nor will pressing the shutter release on the Z7. I can focus fine (manual) and adjust the shutter speed, etc. But no picture gets recorded. Any ideas?
The F-mount version of the lens has contacts to allow electronic adjustment of aperture, combine it with an electronic adapter for the Z-mount (eh like the one Nikon makes) is the way to go IMO.
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Michael Erlewine on July 20, 2019, 16:51:09
Laowa 100mm F/2.8 2X Ultra Macro APO Lens for Sony FE

Trying to get the above lens to work with the TechArt TZE-01 adapter. It won't fire the shutter release.

I wrote to the company and they responded:

"You may need to select in the manual. Toggle on the "Release shutter without lens."

This may be a generic remark, but I don't know where with the Z7 that can be set. Any ideas?

What I need is a dumb adapter.
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Roland Vink on July 20, 2019, 22:22:22
Tape over the contacts on the adapter...
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Michael Erlewine on July 23, 2019, 16:15:22
I finally received the Kipon adapter for adapting Sony E-Mount lenses to the Nikon Z7. This is a DUMB adapter and works perfectly for allowing the Venus 100mm 2x APO macro to function, i.e. let's the shutter release fire. The TechArt TZE-01 would not let the shutter fire.

As for the lens itself, very short focus throw which is terrible for the close focus that 2x requires. I will keep it for use on very close insect shots, but if I stack anything, I will have to put it on a focus rail. Otherwise the Venus/Laowa 100mm F/2.8 2X Ultra Macro APO Lens for Sony FE seems to work OK. Will check it out.

Sample photo with the Laowa 100mm focused on the very tip of the top. Not too bad, eh?
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: golunvolo on July 23, 2019, 17:44:39
I love it Michael. Just made look it up and there is a f-mount version of the Laowa 100mm APO 2.8 2x coming for around 400 euros?
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Michael Erlewine on July 23, 2019, 18:04:38
I love it Michael. Just made look it up and there is a f-mount version of the Laowa 100mm APO 2.8 2x coming for around 400 euros?

I like it on the mirrorless Z& with a tiny thin adapter.  I got the Sony E version because it has a 13-blade diaphragm.
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: golunvolo on July 23, 2019, 18:13:33
I see. They are the same price and look like same elements but the nikon version will have a 7-blade diaphragm?
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Michael Erlewine on July 23, 2019, 20:00:06
I see. They are the same price and look like same elements but the nikon version will have a 7-blade diaphragm?

Exactly
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: Jan Anne on July 24, 2019, 12:33:26
Ran some quick tests today with the TechArt adapter on the Z6, everything seem to work fine when adjusting the aperture on the camera but for the Voigtlander lenses the aperture is reported incorrectly, the 125/2.5 EF (with Metabones EF-FE adapter) is now reported as an f/1.8 lens wide open and the 15/4.5 FE as f/4.2.

Title: Re: Nikon Z7 with TechArt TZR-01 Adapter and APO Lenses
Post by: adamhodge on August 14, 2019, 16:45:07
Can someone comment on exactly how to update the firmware on this adapter?  When I plug in to the USB I don't get the normal alert that a device is attached.  The firmware updater just says it can't connect.  Doesn't seem like it's getting power?  Thanks!