NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: Seapy on November 25, 2018, 20:56:07
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Now the Z's are starting to come on stream the hitherto 'top bodies' are slithering down the pile.
Yesterday I was offered a D800 which is absolutely immaculate, a studio camera, never seen mud or rain, probably not even sunshine! For £600. Seems like a bargain, shutter count ~155,000. Comes from an impeccable source.
Having studied threads here and reviews aplenty, I was leaning towards a D810. But will this do me, or at least provide an opportunity to familiarise myself with the D800 series, I am sure for the majority of my needs it will be sufficient but the astro side may be wanting, noise, resolution and sensitivity.
I want to do macro X2 to X5 focus stacking, slide and negative copying on my PB4 bellows slide copier. The D3 won't mount on the PB4 without an extension tube, which prevents me getting focus with any lens I have. I also want to use it for astro photography, longish stacked exposures, for which I believe the D810 would be better.
I would then mainly use the D3 for action photography like motor racing and sports where the lower resolution is perfectly adequate. I tend to stay away from birding and long lenses.
Also, I have quite a few D200 batteries, will they work the D800?
By next year the D850 might even come within my reach...
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The D200 batteries will not work in the D8xx models. The EN-EL15(x) range works for D800 and Z6/7, plus D500 and a number of the newer Nikons.
For focus stacking I have used both D800 and D810. Not much difference between them for this purpose although the 810 files are a tad bit cleaner for lack of better term. Used in general photography live view is significantly better in the D810 when you need to magnify the view. Otherwise again differences are not large.
I think picking the model according to price asked, not solely by features, would be a sensible approach.
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Thank you Birna, your input is greatly appreciated. :D
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The D800 mounts fine on the PB-4.
I use this setup. The D800 in DX mode is ok for sports if the grip is used with AA batteries.
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The D800 mounts fine on the PB-4.
Thanks for that confirmation Bent.
I use this setup. The D800 in DX mode is ok for sports if the grip is used with AA batteries.
While the D3 is as spritely as it is, it balances well with my 300 f2.8 AI, the lower pixel count will be more forgiving of my manual focus! ;D
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shutter count is very high.. I recently (past 6 months) bought three D800's for $800 USD with shutter counts less than 30,000... one had 12,000 actuations. that said I find that the D810 renders somewhat more pleasing than the D800 (subjective clearly).. for focus stacking you may also prefer the electronic front curtain shutter of the D810.
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Thanks for the input Bob, will take that into account. Was that $800 each or for all three?
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I had D800 and upgraded to D810 when they were introduced. The 810, imo, had enough improvements to be worth it. I don’t treat my gear poorly by any stretch but both models had to be sent in for repairs! First time this had ever happened to me with a Nikon body and I started with an FG 20 (?, not really sure of the model as it was stolen within two months of purchasing and was replaced with an FM2).
The 810 is a wonderful body but I usually just use it on a tripod now. I find the Df more than adequate for anything else.
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Thanks for the input Bob, will take that into account. Was that $800 each or for all three?
each (price aprox near $800).. you need to look. I wouldn't spend more than $900 and I would try for something of a low shutter count.. certainly under 50k actuations. i had a D800E that I used for high volume focus stacking and broke it at 212k shutter actuations. the D800's I have are all converted (one to monochrome sensor and the others to IR). so for focus stacking which I haven't done for awhile I would use my D850 but I wouldn't hesitate to use the D810. so that is why I am recommended investing in a D810. which should also be reasonable priced with low shutter albeit higher price than the D800's.
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D800 shutter life is rated for 200k actuation's if memory serves. Mine failed at 97k which perhaps was a bit of an anomaly. $300 for the repair which seemed reasonable.
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While the D810 in several aspects definitely is a more refined camera then the D800, I skipped it when it was introduced and got a 2nd hand 120K clicks instead as a back up body
Main reason I stuck with the D800 is the better low light AF, for me a major issue since I regularly shoot catwalk (= moving subjects) and events under less then ideal ideal light
Difference in IQ and high ISO IQ were too incremental for my taste to tip the balance
Had a D3 I got it shortly after its introduction in 2008 to replace the D2X I used for shooting catwalk and sports (surf), was smitten with its much better IQ and high ISO
Much to my regret basically stopped using it after I got my first D800 in 2012
Found the D800's AF and high ISO on par with the D3, even if the AF was not as snappy, but since I by that time no longer was shooting sports/surf, that wasn't an issue
Welcomed the extra pixels, more room for cropping afterwards when it had not been possible to take the ideal composition first time round, only too often inevitable when shooting action or catwalk
Based on my own experience and considering the 'age' of the D800 in general, I think 600 Pounds is a bit steep for a body with 155K clicks, even if apart from the number of clicks it has been handled with care
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I had the d800 from new at £2300 and it was the most disappointing camera I ever bought ..Noisy shutter . It lived all its life with a Samyang 14mm photographing church interiors and first dances. I bought two D810 grey at £1400 and that is 100% better ..quiet and much sharper by 25% if you study DXO .. Now have D850 and its back to clunky shutter but I am photographing the birds with feathers rather than those in the white dresses.
Go for the 810 and low count
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low count D810 is a very sensible idea. Currently we see the prices fall like leaves from trees
I checked used prices and new prices. Lowest used was 1010€, lowest new was 1419€ ... compared to that most used prices seem quite ambitious
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Thank you all for a good discussion. It all helps to focus my thoughts and resolve a solution.
Since I got my D3 and realised it has it's limitations especially for repeated night time exposures. I get progressively worse banding using the intervalometer after the first few exposures. I have been trying to plan a solution. The realisation that repeated long exposures lead to noise and banding has now sunk in. With this realisation come a search for a solution. The D3 was the first of a new generation, FX sensor and new standards of high ISO usable range. Things have moved on, I can't afford new kit but have to capitalise on perfectly usable kit becoming affordable.
My enthusiasm for photography is somewhat dependant on getting reasonable results, yet I constantly want to push the boundaries. Achieve new things and to a reasonable standard, the best I can.
To some degree I take a pride in using 'old' gear and getting nice results, I started with a D1 which everybody told me was way too low a resolution but I got some nice photographs with it. Then D200, wonderful camera, but I was never comfortable with a DX, I viewed it as a temporary expedient until Nikon worked out how to make a full frame sensor.
With the D850 I think Nikon have recognised they have indeed figured out how to make a good full frame sensor, so they have turned to the next challenge, Mirrorless. Thats good for me because, as Frank points out the cost of excellent cameras is plummeting.
Since I realised the D3 isn't the perfect solution for astro photography, I have been saving up for something to step up my game. I have got some nice astro pictures with the D3 but I now realise I can do much better.
As a result of this thread I have been offered a really nice very low shutter count D800, at a good price. The spirit of this forum is amazing, I am really grateful for the help and encouragement I receive and the spirit of helpfulness which pervades this place. I want to see how I get on with the D800, it might be joined by a D810 next year. The D800 could be tied up on time lapse duty or focus stacking for extended periods. So a second high res body would be good, as will some larger SSD's!
Sorry if I have been rambling...
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One last thing...
I have quite a number of slides and negatives I want to copy to digital with the D800, none are perfectly flat. Would this be an appropriate task for focus stacking?
If it is, using my PB4 bellows, do I move the camera, the camera/lens assy, or the negative?
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Moving the entire bellows thus having a fixed magnification and altered subject distance would be the better approach. However, as you are round 1:1 magnification, the practical difference against other methods might be slight.
This is a task well suited for an automated solution such as the Stackshot by Cognisys (or similar products).
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Thank you Birna, this is a conundrum I have often considered, not quite the same circumstances as a three dimensional subject but similar.
I tend to very slightly crop the image in camera, or occasionally close in on a detail. I also have quite a few 110 negatives which of course need magnification.
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Thank you all for a good discussion. It all helps to focus my thoughts and resolve a solution.
Since I got my D3 and realised it has it's limitations especially for repeated night time exposures. I get progressively worse banding using the intervalometer after the first few exposures. I have been trying to plan a solution. The realisation that repeated long exposures lead to noise and banding has now sunk in. With this realisation come a search for a solution. The D3 was the first of a new generation, FX sensor and new standards of high ISO usable range. Things have moved on, I can't afford new kit but have to capitalise on perfectly usable kit becoming affordable.
My enthusiasm for photography is somewhat dependant on getting reasonable results, yet I constantly want to push the boundaries. Achieve new things and to a reasonable standard, the best I can.
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Robert, have you tried to stack frames using dark frame subtraction (the latter based on almost as many frames as the light frames)? That should help cancel part of the pattern noise. Also if pattern noise occurs at low ISO, turning up ISO can cause it to be drowned out in other noise (as happens with my D7100). DeepskyStacker (DSS) takes care of these tasks automatically.
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No I haven't taken dark exposures, for star trails, found it didn't work, for time-lapse (the first time encountered banding on the D3 and a huge disappointment) it gets complicated, in fact I don't know how you would apply dark frames to time-lapse, for Star stacking I have tried dark frames but although it seemed to work to some degree, star stacking process actually tends to cancel out the banding naturally, because of the sky rotation.
One of my objectives is to create a time lapse of the tidal flow in the nearby estuary at night with the stars apparently rotating in the sky above the estuary and clouds passing by, possibly illuminated by a full moon. I have tried it but the banding is obvious and intrusive.
According to Ralph Hill
https://sites.google.com/site/starrylandscapestacker/capturing-images-quick-guide
He is now casting doubt on the process of recommending against using dark frames.
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Yes, neither star trails or non-stacked time lapse is a god candidate for using dark frames. For some sensors with good dark current suppression it is best to drop them, in other cases with a sensor more fixed pattern noise, poor hot pixel suppression and inadequate dark current suppression it makes sense to use dark frames. However as it is correct that they can add noise, the number of dark frames should approach the number of light frames to reduce their noise contribution. Sticking to 10 dark frames is way to little if one tracks for one or more hours.
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Mirror/shatter slap, in some cases, could be critical for D800. I was trying to avoid speeds from 1/60 to 1/180, if possible. D810 is much better on this respect, and couple times only, I've admitted it with my D850, on the speed of 1/90, or close to it. So the image to illustrate what I really mean. Crop of 200%. LZ (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48261963631_3a6e0184cd_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwKbne)20161123-2016-11-23 014 (https://flic.kr/p/2gwKbne) by (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48262031042_02539c51f0_b.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photo[url=https://flic.kr/p/2gwKwpu)20161123-2016-11-23 014-3 (https://flic.kr/p/2gwKwpu) by longzoom (https://www.flickr.com/photos/longzoom/), on Flickrs/longzoom/]longzoom[/url], on Flickr
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Seapy- How is the D800 working out for you? Are you satisfied with it, or do you think the D810 might have been a better choice? I ask because I'm thinking of buying one or the other. I wanted a D850, but the prices are just getting too attractive for the 800/810, $800+/- for a excellent used D800 and $1400+/- for a used D810 in excellent condition. I'm also wondering if the extra $600 for the D810 will get me that much extra performance? I'd be using the camera primarily for studio work and portraits/landscape, probably not for astrophotography. Your thoughts and those of the other members would be appreciated.
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I have the D810 and mainly use it for portraits, landscape, and copying work. I use the live view a lot for copying and for critical focus.
Whilst I have neither owned or used a D800/800E, for an extra $US600 second hand I would say that the D810 may be the better option in that more of the developmental issues present in what was back then an all new platform such as the D800/800E was when it was first released are likely to have been worked out of the successor model (aka the D810). The D810 reputedly has a quieter shutter, better live view, and a better strengthened internal structure than the D800/800E. Whether these improvements represent value to yourself is something that only you can decide; for me they certainly do but YMMV. Good luck.
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Seapy- How is the D800 working out for you? Are you satisfied with it, or do you think the D810 might have been a better choice? I ask because I'm thinking of buying one or the other. I wanted a D850, but the prices are just getting too attractive for the 800/810, $800+/- for a excellent used D800 and $1400+/- for a used D810 in excellent condition. I'm also wondering if the extra $600 for the D810 will get me that much extra performance? I'd be using the camera primarily for studio work and portraits/landscape, probably not for astrophotography. Your thoughts and those of the other members would be appreciated.
I am absolutely delighted with the D800, the colour depth, the recoverable shadow detail and even the recoverable highlight detail are far better than I have experienced with the D3 or even dreamt possible. The time lapse feature is very useful because it produces a simple video file instead of thousands of JPEG's which then need processing into a movie. I would have preferred X2 CF slots like the D3, I don't like the SD cards at all, way too picky and fiddly but that's life I guess.
The downsides are, I don't need the resolution, except perhaps for astro photography where it allows greater detail to be recorded. The large file sizes and the increase in astro intervalometer stacks has caused me to have to fit a larger SSD for this current years images, up from a 250Gb, to a 500Gb, which is well over half full already... I am expecting to need a 1Tb drive next year. And I haven't taken a picture with the D800 since mid may in Scotland, I have been so busy with summer projects I haven't had time for photography. I feel the high resolution is inevitable and unavoidable if I am to enjoy the benefits of the better colour depth and greater dynamic range.
Yes, I do plan to get a D810, I believe the IQ is slightly better and there are other items in the specification list which would be good for me. Longer exposure and more flexible intervalometer settings from memory. Although I have just obtained an MC36 remote which will allow me to use bulb on the camera and set longer exposures than I will ever need in practice. I think the image processor is newer on the D810, which probably speeds up the processing but more importantly results in even better images.
An unexpected and wonderful outcome from the D800 is by bracketing the exposure, I have been able to copy many Kodachrome slides from the 1960's which were very poorly exposed, we didn't possess a light meter in those days. Bracketing and using Lightroom HDR together with the 'auto' settings allows the recovery of many slides which were otherwise unusable.
I have seen excellent, very low shutter count D810's for less than you mention. I went with the D800 because it was bargain, I still intend to get a D810, I can't afford nor do I see the need to go the extra mile for the D850.
I am expecting to use the D800 on a bench setup and the D810 for outdoors and astro. I like to do long term time lapse and intend to start image stacking, so it means disturbing the setup when I need the camera outside.
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Hugh and Seapy-
Thank you for your detailed replies. You’ve given me lots to think about and you’ve got me leaning in the D810 direction.
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The downsides are, I don't need the resolution, except perhaps for astro photography where it allows greater detail to be recorded. The large file sizes and the increase in astro intervalometer stacks has caused me to have to fit a larger SSD for this current years images, up from a 250Gb, to a 500Gb, which is well over half full already... I am expecting to need a 1Tb drive next year. And I haven't taken a picture with the D800 since mid may in Scotland, I have been so busy with summer projects I haven't had time for photography. I feel the high resolution is inevitable and unavoidable if I am to enjoy the benefits of the better colour depth and greater dynamic range.
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I don't see resolution much as an issue, there are ways to reduce resolution and Hard-Disc usage.
For instance, D800/D810 have a native maximum resolution of 7360x4912 px (36 MP). You could change to 1.2x format (30x20 mm image area) and drop down to 24 MP. Or, you could use M or S instead of L QUAL mode
L mode: 7360x4912 (36 MP)
M mode: 5520×3680 (20 MP)
S mode: 3680x2456 (16 MP)
This will affect only the jpg, I'm afraid the NEF will stick to the max resolution (but you have an option for taking the NEF at a single lower resolution where it will occupy 9 MBytes instead of 30-40 MB, look it up in the manual).
There are also more ways of using the sensor: 5/4 mode, DX mode. Each selection will allow you to decrease the pixel count and storage.
Ciao from Massimo
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I have not posted on here for a long while, neither have I posted on any other camera forums, so I stuck loyal and maintained my subscription.
I am out of touch, very rusty, and slowly getting on board again.
I bought the D800E as my first step up the ladder from my D80.
I chose this body for multiple reasons, but I recall, one that has stuck, it was reported to be a very good camera at Low Light / High ISO, the noise in the images that I recall viewing were cleaner than some of the images I viewed from a D810, as I was mainly shooting outside of my working hours, low light performance seemed at the time to be of a high priority.
There may be differing views on my recollection of my preparation/investigation to to make a purchase, I'm all ears, as a D850 is a attractive proposition to me.
So receiving some thoughts from others of things that need consideration, will be good to ponder.
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Seapy- I think you are right about the prices. After looking on ebay, I think I could find a good 810 for under $1200, maybe under $1000. I was looking at the prices on KEH and MPB, which are considerably higher, but ebay is probably my best bet. I just need to make sure I’m not buying a grey market body