NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: jpgrahn on November 14, 2018, 21:43:04
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Maybe this is a very basic problem. And if so, please point me in the right direction.
If I go out with just one camera body it is no problem. I go back, ingest the files and work on them as best I can.
But if I bring more than one body it is easy to notice the differences even though pictures were taken very close to each other.
How to best deal with this?
Today I tested the same setup. Outside a cloudy day so the lighting was extremly similar between the shots.
My five bodies were V1, V3, D2Hs, D700 and D800.
On the V1 and V3 I used a 32 mm lens.
On the other bodies my 58 mm lens. D700 and D800 were set to Dx format.
White balance se to auto on all cameras.
I realize that it is very hard, if not impossible, to get exactly the same result between such different camera bodies. Different sensor size and different ages of course. But I would like to get a bit closer.
What is the best course of action?
Thanks!
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Start by getting color calibration right. Get a Macbeth color checker and figure out how to use it. You should strive to make your images match reality as closely as possible rather than trying to make them match one another.
As you mentioned, differences in cameras and lenses will make it nearly impossible for results to match between cameras, so perhaps get rid of some of the older ones and trim down to two cameras which complement each other and give similar results. Sometimes this is two identical bodies, but could be two different cameras each with a distinctive use. Or finally, get rid of all of them and get a single good all around camera like D850.
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This could be a tall order when one takes into account the wide range of cameras involved!
Assuming that this is a question of how to get raw files to match upon conversion, I'd probably start with Jack's suggestion. If you use Lightroom or ACR, it is very fast to do the calibration with the Color Checker. Save each camera's calibration as a 'User Preset', which can be applied at the time of import into ACR/Lightroom.
Without the Color Checker, I'd shoot an identical scene all with cameras. Cameras would be set to a fixed white balance, like Daylight.
Then I'd process the test shot from one of the cameras, and then take them all through processing to match the first. Save the settings of your raw converter manually or if the converter allows, as a user preset applicable to that camera's files upon/after import.
If you are shooting JPEGs, you can try the laborious process of adjusting the Picture Control of each camera, shooting, reviewing, adjusting again.
Most will probably agree that you've got a better chance of matching all the cameras by shooting raw, since JPEGs have much less processing latitude.
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I used to set up specific calibration profiles for my D610, D4s, D5’s combined with some specific lenses. To finally notice that their color rendition is very similar. A a result, I abandoned the use of these profiles. And I only make a specific calibration set, in the very rare occasions I need a precise (calibrated) color rendition.
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Capture One has a tool called Normalize, with it you can sample the exposure and/or white balance from one image and apply it to another image. In theory it should do what you are seeking.
Lightroom has a function called Match Total Exposures, it will equalize exposure between different images but not color/white balance.
You might try auto settings in the software you are using seeings how all of the image are being processed through it. Otherwise you're relying on 5 cameras auto settings to come to the same conclusion.
Other than tools such as these it would be a manual procedure as already mentioned. Shooting color cards and/or noting exposure and white balance differences between cameras and compensating in the field.
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Thanks for all your helpful suggestions!
I understand it is my lack of knowledge that is the biggest problem.
And I did not believe I could get exactly the same output from the cameras.
It was just that the differences were so striking.
The first thing I will try is to set cameras to daylight white balance.
That is easy.
I also suspect that LR might be doing something to the photos when I import.
I used a setup with a color checker passport included in the pictures. Thought that I could set the white balance this way.
It was overcast and I believed that WB would be the same. Probably wrong.
Thanks again! Will try again.
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And remind that a color checker can do more than adjust WB. You can adjust the whole photo for a set of specific colours e.g. skin tones.
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Tried again today.
All cameras set to WB Daylight.
Exposure according to camera. It varies slightly.
V3 stands out I am trying to learn why.
How can I do to make the output closer to the other cameras?
Some time ago Nikon changed the motherboard in my V3 and after that change the color also changed.
So, is there a way to adjust this?
Thanks for any idea you might have!
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Are all camera set to the same white balance? same colour space?
That V3 really is off.
Are the RAW files processed in the same software, too?
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Are all camera set to the same white balance? same colour space?
That V3 really is off.
Are the RAW files processed in the same software, too?
Color space is sRGB and WB is daylight for all cameras.
I can make it look much better in LR but I am hoping to find a way to make it happen automatically.
These are jpgs directly from the cameras. No processing in LR.
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Your V3 must be faulty. Return for repair. A daylight exposure should never look like this.
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Thanks,
next is to contact Nikon.
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Your D800 image looks flat compared to the others, I wouldn't be surprised if it had a different picture control setting applied than the other cameras. Since you're dealing with out of camera JPG's check to make sure all picture controls are set to similar settings across the different cameras. Personally I'd start with the Neutral setting on all cameras and then go from there. If you don't plan on shooting NEF's Picture Controls are where you can make adjustments to get the images more similar to one another, for example the older D2Hs has lower dynamic range than the newer D700 & D800, so reducing the contrast in the D2Hs might help in equalizing it with the newer cameras.
As for the V3 you may want to try doing a factory reset on it before anything else, just to be sure there are no in camera settings out of whack to give it the color cast you're seeing.
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Thanks for the help. I messaged Nikon and started to think...
I guess that is something I should have done at first.
Good suggestion to reset the cameras!
Back to basics. Read the manual.
Which I did.
The V3 is now significant closer to the others and I think the diffences are now just the fact that the cameras have different sensors and that they were manufactured at different times.
So I will live with this.
As for the suggestion to get rid of all these old clunkers and get a D850 instead. As much as I would like to do this it is unfortunately not possible at this time!
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The last V3 image seems to perhaps lean towards magenta. The auto white balance on Nikon 1 and DSLR bodies can be tweaked under the WB menu item (on my AW1 I press right when the Auto WB is marked in the menu), both in the blue-yellow and green-magenta direction. (All of the last images were exposed with auto WB). This setting needs to be used with caution as I do not think it is registered in the file, just affects the outcome of the WB measurement. It is easy to forget that one ever made a change or even that the WB tweaking option exists.
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The last V3 image seems to perhaps lean towards magenta. The auto white balance on Nikon 1 and DSLR bodies can be tweaked under the WB menu item (on my AW1 I press right when the Auto WB is marked in the menu), both in the blue-yellow and green-magenta direction. (All of the last images were exposed with auto WB). This setting needs to be used with caution as I do not think it is registered in the file, just affects the outcome of the WB measurement. It is easy to forget that one ever made a change or even that the WB tweaking option exists.
Importing images in LR with no adjustment during import gives me these numbers for WB and tint.
Camera: WB / Tint
V1: 5400 / -2
V3: 6600 / +77
D2Hs: 5300 / -8
D700: 5150 / -6
D800: 5400 / +2
V3 is still different from the others.
Øivind, are you saying I can change the WB setting in my V3 to make it come out more like my other cameras?
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Also note that the lenses you use will create subtle (sometimes not so subtle) differences compared to each other .. unless you're using the exact same 5 lenses on each camera.
The difference in contrast between the tamron 24-70 cf Nikon 24/2 is huge! .. same with the differences between Nikon 50/1.2, Sigma 50/1.4 and Yongnuo 50/1.8 .. not the apertures .. just the colour and contrast rendering.
Have you tried using a preset WB for all cameras+lens systems .. instead of setting a manual WB setting?
Do you have a white/grey or even a black target you could set preset WB with?
eg. to repeat the daylight WB test, instead of setting daylight WB in camera, do a 'PreWB' in camera for each combination(camera/lens).
Only cameras I have to test with are D70s, D300 and D800E, and they all come up pretty close in output, in terms of colour once preset WB has been done.
Obviously they have differences in tone/contrast rendering .. can't be helped, but colour can be made close enough to not make a huge difference.
if you do this in daylight, obviously be sure that the lighting conditions remain close to the same(ie. no clouds passing overhead to spoil things .. etc.)
Once you've done this, then use your raw converter to determine what differences in actual WB values the cameras have chosen for their respective preset values.
ps. never had a Nikon1, but I assume they allow preset WB setting too?
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Importing images in LR with no adjustment during import gives me these numbers for WB and tint.
Camera: WB / Tint
V1: 5400 / -2
V3: 6600 / +77
D2Hs: 5300 / -8
D700: 5150 / -6
D800: 5400 / +2
V3 is still different from the others.
Øivind, are you saying I can change the WB setting in my V3 to make it come out more like my other cameras?
Yes, that should work, although I am not familiar with LR and to which degree it uses the Nikon generated data. At least it should work on JPG's and images processed with Nikon software.
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Yes, that should work, although I am not familiar with LR and to which degree it uses the Nikon generated data. At least it should work on JPG's and images processed with Nikon software.
Yes, LR takes into account the settings in the camera and I started to experiment with different settings yesterday. Will update with some examples.
My childish belief was that with a setting of white or black on the photo I would get the same whitebalance on to photos. This does not seem to be the case.
For instance V1 and V3 does not show the photo the same way. It doesn't help to enter the same Kevin temperatur and tint. Still different.
I will have to do more testing I guess. Yesterday I tried lots of different settings adjusting the automatic white balance on my V3. I believe it is the right way to go but it will require more testing for me.
My guess is that will not be a linear function. What I mean is that maybe I can get an almost perfect, good enough, setting for lets say daylight (which of course is the most useful one).
If the condition is different, indoor light, the same setting is probably doesn't work. The response to red light between different sensors must different.
But I will do more testing.
Tried to find something in the internet on this but no luck sofar.
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Also note that the lenses you use will create subtle (sometimes not so subtle) differences compared to each other .. unless you're using the exact same 5 lenses on each camera.
The difference in contrast between the tamron 24-70 cf Nikon 24/2 is huge! .. same with the differences between Nikon 50/1.2, Sigma 50/1.4 and Yongnuo 50/1.8 .. not the apertures .. just the colour and contrast rendering.
Have you tried using a preset WB for all cameras+lens systems .. instead of setting a manual WB setting?
Do you have a white/grey or even a black target you could set preset WB with?
eg. to repeat the daylight WB test, instead of setting daylight WB in camera, do a 'PreWB' in camera for each combination(camera/lens).
Only cameras I have to test with are D70s, D300 and D800E, and they all come up pretty close in output, in terms of colour once preset WB has been done.
Obviously they have differences in tone/contrast rendering .. can't be helped, but colour can be made close enough to not make a huge difference.
if you do this in daylight, obviously be sure that the lighting conditions remain close to the same(ie. no clouds passing overhead to spoil things .. etc.)
Once you've done this, then use your raw converter to determine what differences in actual WB values the cameras have chosen for their respective preset values.
ps. never had a Nikon1, but I assume they allow preset WB setting too?
Yes, all my cameras have settings to adjust white balance.
I know about the lenses. My experience is that Nikon lenses are pretty similar and I was not expecting to get exakt equivalent pictures. Just hoping to get them closer to each other.
Luckily the weather have been mostly cloudy recently. All my cameras showed fairly similar measurements except the V3.
Thanks for helping!
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Yes, all my cameras have settings to adjust white balance.
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Just to be 100% clear .. I wasn't referring to adjusting WB.
I was specifically pointing out the Preset WB feature, where you shoot each camera at a neutral target(grey or white both work), with the lens you want to 'equalise' the camera/lens combos with.
Once a Preset WB shot is taken, the camera loads that into memory area(it can store 4 or 5 options of Preset WB settings), but if you've never used WB Pre, then you will only have the one option which you just created.
Have to agree with others that the V3 seems to be wayyy off, but of course we don't know the specifics of how all images were captured either.
It'd be interesting to see the differences between the V1 and the V3 using Preset WB values .. using the same lens on both cameras.
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Just to be 100% clear .. I wasn't referring to adjusting WB.
I was specifically pointing out the Preset WB feature, where you shoot each camera at a neutral target(grey or white both work), with the lens you want to 'equalise' the camera/lens combos with.
Once a Preset WB shot is taken, the camera loads that into memory area(it can store 4 or 5 options of Preset WB settings), but if you've never used WB Pre, then you will only have the one option which you just created.
Have to agree with others that the V3 seems to be wayyy off, but of course we don't know the specifics of how all images were captured either.
It'd be interesting to see the differences between the V1 and the V3 using Preset WB values .. using the same lens on both cameras.
OK, I will try that as well. Thanks.
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Just so there should be no doubt, below is the WB tweaking screen I am talking about. This fine tweaking is available for each of the WB settings. Note that this is not a screen shot from a Nikon 1, but it looks similar.
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Just so there should be no doubt, below is the WB tweaking screen I am talking about. This fine tweaking is available for each of the WB settings. Note that this is not a screen shot from a Nikon 1, but it looks similar.
Yes, that is what I thought.
I have been experimenting with the settings a lot but not reached a conlusion yet.
Will let you know my "findings".
The replies from Nikon does not indicate that they have any useful information to share. If Nikon's support doesn't know, then who knows? Mayby NikonGear? :-)
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Preset WB. White balance set against card on top of Totoros head.
My greycard was not so big. New one is on order.
Here are the results.
Looks good now. Not such big differences anymore.
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Preset WB. I tried with white paper instead.
This time it becomes more yellow.
I think Totoros belly influenced the result.
But this time as well the results are similar between the camera bodies.
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Preset WB. I tried with white paper instead.
This time it becomes more yellow.
I think Totoros belly influenced the result.
But this time as well the results are similar between the camera bodies.
For doing preset WB, fill the frame with gray card or white object oriented in the light same way as your subject. You can then use that white balance to shoot the whole scene.
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For doing preset WB, fill the frame with gray card or white object oriented in the light same way as your subject. You can then use that white balance to shoot the whole scene.
Yeah, that's it.
First make an exposure of the neutral object, doesn't have to be in focus, but like JD said, fill the frame.
Just needs to be the same light conditions .. that is, don't take white paper or grey card inside to expose it.
If you're shooting on tripod, even better.
eg. hold paper in front of lens, make sure if sunlit day, then sunlight on paper too, if cloudy .. even better.
hold paper about an arms length from lens, shoot the PreWB exposure, then you're set.
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curious what software (raw conversion) you use too?
Only reason I ask is the anomaly with the exif in the D800 images.
It says 58mm lens, but then 87mm, 35mm equivalent!
The other question, not yet asked(again re software used) .. do you have whatever software to automatically set some image/camera related parameters?
eg. say in Lr, you may have a setting where it renders images from certain cameras in some pre defined preset?
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Yeah, that's it.
First make an exposure of the neutral object, doesn't have to be in focus, but like JD said, fill the frame.
Just needs to be the same light conditions .. that is, don't take white paper or grey card inside to expose it.
If you're shooting on tripod, even better.
eg. hold paper in front of lens, make sure if sunlit day, then sunlight on paper too, if cloudy .. even better.
hold paper about an arms length from lens, shoot the PreWB exposure, then you're set.
That's what I did. At least tried to do.
Result is quite similar. Maybe as similar as it ever will get with such different sensor.
I am satisfied with this.
Next is to try to find a WB setting for the V3 that will compensate for the difference compared with my other bodies.
But already now I am much closer than at the start. Thanks to you and others on the forum.
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curious what software (raw conversion) you use too?
Only reason I ask is the anomaly with the exif in the D800 images.
It says 58mm lens, but then 87mm, 35mm equivalent!
The other question, not yet asked(again re software used) .. do you have whatever software to automatically set some image/camera related parameters?
eg. say in Lr, you may have a setting where it renders images from certain cameras in some pre defined preset?
Ingestion with LightZone (think I got the name right). It has a clever function that automatically makes folders for every day pictures were taken.
From there I browse photos and select with FastRawViewer.
Finally import to LightRoom.
It is possible to automatically adjust images during import to LR but I turned it off now.
In LR I can se the Kelvin temperature and the tint value. I don't know how to get those values from another program. Do you?
The jpgs I have shown here comes straight out of the cameras. They have not been handled in LR.
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Sorry, forgot to answer you other question!
On the V1 and the V3 I used a 32 mm lens. Works out close to a 85 mm on an FX body.
On the D2Hs I used a 58 mm lens. Which works out as close to a 85 mm on an FX body.
To keep same distance on all pictures I set my D700 and D800 to DX format and used my 58 mm.
I don't currently own an "true" 85 mm lens.
As much as I could I wanted to make things as simple as possible. This was one way.
I did not take into account the "equivalent factors", focal length and aperture, when comparing different kameras.
Mostly I was interested in trying to understand how the WB changed between the bodies.
Same ISO, same shutter speed and same aperture for all photos.