NikonGear'23

Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: Stany Buyle on September 14, 2018, 13:08:56

Title: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: Stany Buyle on September 14, 2018, 13:08:56
(This topic is a summary of my Z7 hands-on and field test-topic I posted on my website (http://www.nikonuser.info/fotoforum/viewtopic.php?f=117&t=3697&sid=220c7f652e225145327375b976b468a3).)

Good afternoon everybody!

Last Friday I had the pleasure to handle the Nikon Z7 for a couple  of hours, and it was a surprising positive experience.

(http://www.myphotogallery.name/NikonML/Z7img/20180907-Z7-_002.JPG)

Shooting experience, Z7 compared to D850 and conclusion
After using Z7 in the field for about 1½ hour I will remember it as a very positive experience with the first model out of a new category of photographic tools by Nikon. The very "Nikon" feel and menu, silent shooting, impressive vibration free 9 fps, my best EVF experience until today and last but not least the perfect compatibility of all Nikon lenses trough a engineering masterpiece of a Fmount To Zmount adapter were the highlights, while the lack of some dedicated buttons, the start up lag, one card slot and a rather limited buffer were the less positive points.

While the start up lag is probably inherent to the mirrorless system, I could imagine that the lack of some dedicated buttons, one card slot and a rather limited buffer are decisions Nikon made to protect D850 sales for 2018/2019.
I expect a more pro version of the Z-series to be announced in about a year from now, available end 2019/early 2020.
While talking about a more "pro" version successor of the Nikon Z7, someone might think it would beat D850 on everything. If so, and explicit in relation to action, sports, BIF, insects in flight and wildlife photography, Z serie' AF has still to be improved a lot to become a D850 competitor or replacement.
TMHO, the D5 successor will be a DSLR...

For professional users I see Z6/Z7 more as a complementary camera than as a successor or replacement for DSLRs. Complementary because of silent shooting and professional video opportunities.
For new users who want a compact, silent camera system with very probably the best IQ in its class available today, Z7 is an excellent choice.


Nikon does things right.

Thanks for your attention and kindest regards,

Stany
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: gryphon1911 on September 14, 2018, 18:46:01
Stany,

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.   I was slated to get a hands on with the Z cameras Sept 7, but work got in the way.

One of the things that I am most interested in is how the Z cameras and the FTZ adapter deal with lenses like the older 55/2.8.  Lenses I have like the old 200mm f/4 Q, 55/3.5 macro, and the 105/2.5 AI lens.   If you don't mind can you extrapolate more about how that process works with the Z?

Specifically, do you setup a "non-CPU" lens entry, use the Z in manual or aperture priority?   Does the camera allow this type of lens to function by using a command dial to set the aperture setting for the exposure or does it not even care at that point and just determine exposure based on the light coming in and setup shutter and ISO accordingly?

Why this curiousity?  I want to know if this camera is one that can handle these older lenses same as my Nikon Df or my Olympus PEN-F.
From ancillary reports I could find, I believe it might work just fine.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 14, 2018, 20:04:50
I'd like a double XQD for my D500&D850
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: Akira on September 21, 2018, 01:15:38
Have played with Z7 at Nikon service in Ginza.  Here are small additions to the review here.

The overall built quality seems to be like that of D750, which is very good.

The grip was, kind of sacrificed by the lowering the hight, a bit too short.  My little finger comes just on the bottom edge of the body.

The command dials are made of metal (aluminum?) and a bit too finely knurled.  The grip and operating feel of the rubberized and more jaggy dials on D bodies is much better to me.  The ones on Z bodies can be fiddly to operate especially with the gloves in the winter.
Title: I LOVE the 24-70 F4 S...
Post by: Stany Buyle on September 29, 2018, 11:16:07
Good morning!
To me, the most seductive element in the Z series next to shooting in silent mode... is the 24-70 F4 lens.
Light, compact, silent and fast focusing while delivering top notch IQ is what this lens is and does. I love it.
Used on a high MP body likeZ7 it's like a Swiss knife, a great travel combo, from landscape to limited tele due to the cropping possibilities a high resolution sensor provides, with a very attractive closest focusing distance as a bonus...

(http://www.myphotogallery.name/Z7rev/DSC_0797-1000px.jpg)

(http://www.myphotogallery.name/Z7rev/DSC_1005-1000px.jpg)

(http://www.myphotogallery.name/Z7rev/DSC_0831-1000px.jpg)

and a crop of the image here above:
(http://www.myphotogallery.name/Z7rev/DSC_0831-crop-1000px.jpg)

The above is a summary of what I posted in my Z7 user review (http://www.nikonuser.info/fotoforum/viewtopic.php?f=117&t=3697&sid=892e17d5f929a156613dcfd62f4ef1f2) on my website.

Thanks for your attention and kindest regards,
Stany

Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: Fons Baerken on September 29, 2018, 12:05:11
Quote from: gryphon1911 on September 14, 2018, 18:46:01
Stany,

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.   I was slated to get a hands on with the Z cameras Sept 7, but work got in the way.

One of the things that I am most interested in is how the Z cameras and the FTZ adapter deal with lenses like the older 55/2.8.  Lenses I have like the old 200mm f/4 Q, 55/3.5 macro, and the 105/2.5 AI lens.   If you don't mind can you extrapolate more about how that process works with the Z?

Specifically, do you setup a "non-CPU" lens entry, use the Z in manual or aperture priority?   Does the camera allow this type of lens to function by using a command dial to set the aperture setting for the exposure or does it not even care at that point and just determine exposure based on the light coming in and setup shutter and ISO accordingly?

Why this curiousity?  I want to know if this camera is one that can handle these older lenses same as my Nikon Df or my Olympus PEN-F.
From ancillary reports I could find, I believe it might work just fine.

Thank you.

Will the adapter accommodate for non-ai lenses has been my question since the beginning, so far havent found the answer, 'its been mute on the line' which made me decide for the d850.
Time will tell anyhow.. ;)
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: Stany Buyle on September 29, 2018, 13:17:39
Quote from: Fons Baerken on September 29, 2018, 12:05:11
Will the adapter accommodate for non-ai lenses has been my question since the beginning, so far havent found the answer, 'its been mute on the line' which made me decide for the d850.
Time will tell anyhow.. ;)
Hi Fons,
This in the information I see in the viewfinder while using my (MF) micro nikkor 55mm F2.8. (Focus peaking used for AF.)
(http://www.myphotogallery.name/Z7rev/Z7focusPeakingViewfinder.jpg)
Kindest regards,
Stany
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: Hugh_3170 on September 29, 2018, 16:04:47
Andrew, I had a try out for about 15 minutes today with a Z7 and its FTZ adapter and I was pleasantly surprised.

Chipped AiS lenses:  set to minimum aperture and then operate the aperture via the command dial - all good  :D

Chipped Ai lenses:    expected this to fail due to the non-linear aperture response of the pre-AiS lenses, but the camera seems to do an on the fly exposure compensation, so this is OK also.    ;D;D
Unchipped AiS lenses:  seems to correctly meter, so the linear stop down mechanism of the adapter and the linear lens aperture mechanisms must be working as one - I am guessing on the fly stop down final metering may also play a part here.  I was told  that it is very desireable to manually input the lenses max aperture and focal length to help get the best out of the in-body stabilisation :D

Non-Ai lenses:           Not supposed to support these, but I had to try.  And Ditto they work also. Now this one really does surprise me, but it is this particular case Andrew that seems to say to me that it can indeed behave like the Olympus Pen-F and OMD cameras. ;D ;D ;D ;D

All of which is vey pleasing in respect of the Z7 and the FTZ.  (Also this really annoys me, as Nikon could have done something similar long long ago on its economy bodies such as the D70, D80, D90, 3XXX and 5XXX series of cameras had they really wanted to. Bastards. Aargh!!!!)

Note:  The FTZ does not have an aperture follower Tab as do the more advanced Nikon DSLRs.  It just has a small microswitch at about "7-Oclock" as do the lower priced Nikon bodies.

Quote from: gryphon1911 on September 14, 2018, 18:46:01
Stany,

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.   I was slated to get a hands on with the Z cameras Sept 7, but work got in the way.

One of the things that I am most interested in is how the Z cameras and the FTZ adapter deal with lenses like the older 55/2.8.  Lenses I have like the old 200mm f/4 Q, 55/3.5 macro, and the 105/2.5 AI lens.   If you don't mind can you extrapolate more about how that process works with the Z?

Specifically, do you setup a "non-CPU" lens entry, use the Z in manual or aperture priority?   Does the camera allow this type of lens to function by using a command dial to set the aperture setting for the exposure or does it not even care at that point and just determine exposure based on the light coming in and setup shutter and ISO accordingly?

Why this curiousity?  I want to know if this camera is one that can handle these older lenses same as my Nikon Df or my Olympus PEN-F.
From ancillary reports I could find, I believe it might work just fine.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on September 29, 2018, 22:02:38
Quote from: Hugh_3170 on September 29, 2018, 16:04:47
Andrew, I had a try out for about 15 minutes today with a Z7 and its FTZ adapter and I was pleasantly surprised.

Unchipped AiS lenses:  seems to correctly meter, so the linear stop down mechanism of the adapter and the linear lens aperture mechanisms must be working as one - I am guessing on the fly stop down final metering may also play a part here.  I was told  that it is very desireable to manually input the lenses max aperture and focal length to help get the best out of the in-body stabilisation :D

Non-Ai lenses:           Not supposed to support these, but I had to try.  And Ditto they work also. Now this one really does surprise me, but it is this particular case Andrew that seems to say to me that it can indeed behave like the Olympus Pen-F and OMD cameras. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Note:  The FTZ does not have an aperture follower Tab as do the more advanced Nikon DSLRs.  It just has a small microswitch at about "7-Oclock" as do the lower priced Nikon bodies.

Can you give more information about how non-chipped AI and non-AI lenses work? Of course we set aperture using the aperture ring on the lens, but does the aperture remain fully open during focusing then shut down during the shot, or ...?
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: MILLIREHM on September 30, 2018, 00:40:55
Quote from: Hugh_3170 on September 29, 2018, 16:04:47
Andrew, I had a try out for about 15 minutes today with a Z7 and its FTZ adapter and I was pleasantly surprised.

Chipped AiS lenses:  set to minimum aperture and then operate the aperture via the command dial - all good  :D

Chipped Ai lenses:    expected this to fail due to the non-linear aperture response of the pre-AiS lenses, but the camera seems to do an on the fly exposure compensation, so this is OK also.    ;D;D
Unchipped AiS lenses:  seems to correctly meter, so the linear stop down mechanism of the adapter and the linear lens aperture mechanisms must be working as one - I am guessing on the fly stop down final metering may also play a part here.  I was told  that it is very desireable to manually input the lenses max aperture and focal length to help get the best out of the in-body stabilisation :D

Non-Ai lenses:           Not supposed to support these, but I had to try.  And Ditto they work also. Now this one really does surprise me, but it is this particular case Andrew that seems to say to me that it can indeed behave like the Olympus Pen-F and OMD cameras. ;D ;D ;D ;D

All of which is vey pleasing in respect of the Z7 and the FTZ.  (Also this really annoys me, as Nikon could have done something similar long long ago on its economy bodies such as the D70, D80, D90, 3XXX and 5XXX series of cameras had they really wanted to. Bastards. Aargh!!!!)

Note:  The FTZ does not have an aperture follower Tab as do the more advanced Nikon DSLRs.  It just has a small microswitch at about "7-Oclock" as do the lower priced Nikon bodies.

Good news
Still unclear what the microswitch really does (and was not aware that the lower priced Nikon bodies that do not meter with AI lenses have this switch which is even more mysterious)

Fine to hear that pre-AI lenses also work in principle (but one can expect some not to do)
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: Hugh_3170 on September 30, 2018, 05:40:47
The microswitch on the lower priced bodies such as the various 3XXX and 5XXX models are used to signal to the camera when a chipped non-G type lens has its aperture ring set to the minimum f stop number.  (Actually there is a slight difference between this microswitch and the ones in some of the earlier bodies such as the D70 series, but I won't digress.)

If the aperture is not set to the minimum f stop, the microswitch will not be activated, and the camera shows a FEE error to warn the user that the ring needs to be set thus.  Many lenses, such as my little 50mm f/1.8D lens, have a small latch that enables the aperture ring to be locked at the minimum aperture, thereby avoiding this issue.
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: Hugh_3170 on September 30, 2018, 05:43:27
Remains open and shuts down upon exposure.

Quote from: Jack Dahlgren on September 29, 2018, 22:02:38
Can you give more information about how non-chipped AI and non-AI lenses work? Of course we set aperture using the aperture ring on the lens, but does the aperture remain fully open during focusing then shut down during the shot, or ...?
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: MILLIREHM on September 30, 2018, 09:16:31
Quote from: Hugh_3170 on September 30, 2018, 05:40:47
The microswitch on the lower priced bodies such as the various 3XXX and 5XXX models are used to signal to the camera when a chipped non-G type lens has its aperture ring set to the minimum f stop number.  (Actually there is a slight difference between this microswitch and the ones in some of the earlier bodies such as the D70 series, but I won't digress.)

Hm, i am not convinced. Higher level bodies like the D700 or D8XX dont have the microswitch and despite  that know whether minimum aperture is set or not when a chipped non G type lens (AI-P, AF or AF-D - may it be AF-S or not) is mounted. So this information must be transferred elecrtonicaly. It does not make sense to me not to use this information when it is available electronically and use the microswitch instead.
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: Hugh_3170 on September 30, 2018, 09:59:21
Well the higher level bodies such as the D700 and D8XX that you have quoted do indeed have an aperture follower tab that hooks onto the raised ridge on the aperture ring, so yes they have a very direct electromechanical way of telling what aperture has been selected on the lens of an Ai or AiS lens (or a lens that has been converted to be Ai equivalent by adding or machining a engagement ridge onto the camera side of the aperture ring).

The less expensive Nikon bodies without the aperture follower tab are the ones with the microswitch and the way that their electronics are set up are such that they cannot meter with lenses that are unchipped and one must manual set exposure - usually by making a test shot and looking at the exposure histogram of the test shot enables one to quckly determine an acceptable exposure - but what a pain in the neck!    (Bodies without an aperture follower tab do have the microswitch, wheras the bodies that have the aperture follower tab do not have the the microswitch - it is one or the other.)

Thank goodness that at long last the Nikon Z7 with the FTZ adapter have their electronics set up to meter with non-chipped lenses very much the same way that the current mirrorless cameras from other manufacturers work.  The Z7 body does allow one to specify non-chipped lens parameters, which assists in respect of accurate metadata recording and giving the in-body image stabiliser focal length data to work with.  The the lens aperture stop down lever inside the FTZ is obviously capable of stopping down a precise number of stops from the full open position as determined by the metering systems, and I do strongly suspect that the camera does do a final on the fly exposure correction once the lens is fully stopped down  just immediately before the shutter is fired.  Also the Z7 does have a live expoure histogram displayed in the viewfinder, so one can make and see the effects of exposure changes before firing the shutter.  Once again, this live display of the exposure histogram (and the effects of colour balance settings) is a feature of other mirrorless camera brands as well as the Nikon Z7. 


Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: MILLIREHM on September 30, 2018, 10:20:32
Yes you are right Hugh, i was mislead and focused on CPU and electronic contacts, meanwhile forgot about the AI coupling ridge, so actually the information is still transferred mechanically in this case and converted to electronic information in the camera, wheras the CPU contains information about the maximum aperture.

nine slots for saving non CPU lens data (which is the standard in SLR bodies since the D300) is somewhat limited. Nikon easily could do more if they wanted to. The Z7/Z6 probably wont break with this tradition i suspect.
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: Hugh_3170 on September 30, 2018, 10:42:06
Good news Wolfgang - I recall that the Z7 can accomodate up to 30 slots.  Nine was too few in my opinion.

(BTW, the Z7 user manuals are available for download and an online version is available in most languages.)

EDIT:  Twenty (20) slots NOT 30!  My bad!
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: MILLIREHM on September 30, 2018, 10:56:33
Quote from: Hugh_3170 on September 30, 2018, 10:42:06
Good news Wolfgang - I recall that the Z7 can accomodate up to 30 slots.  Nine was too few in my opinion.

(BTW, the Z7 user manuals are available for download and an online version is available in most languages.)

Thanks Hugh for the good news. Downloaded the manual already but did not study it in all details

(would be fine if Nikon upgrades the SLR line in this respect with the next series of firmware upgrades)
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: Hugh_3170 on September 30, 2018, 12:11:02
We can but hope!  ;D

Given that non-Nikon mirrorless cameras are very versatile in what can be attached to them (i.e. read "lens brand agnostic"), it is good that Nikon has tried to make the transition from their DSLRs to the Z series as painless as possible.  Sony may have had an earlier acceptance of their mirrorless cameras had they worlked harder in this respect.

Quote from: MILLIREHM on September 30, 2018, 10:56:33
..............................................................
(would be fine if Nikon upgrades the SLR line in this respect with the next series of firmware upgrades)
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: arthurking83 on October 05, 2018, 15:02:30
Quote from: MILLIREHM on September 30, 2018, 10:20:32
....

nine slots for saving non CPU lens data (which is the standard in SLR bodies since the D300) is somewhat limited. Nikon easily could do more if they wanted to. The Z7/Z6 probably wont break with this tradition i suspect.

If you want more, then you'd want them to free up more firmware space, as that will be the limiting factor.
That is, they could remove some other feature from the cameras firmware to cater for more address space for more of those non CPU data allowances.
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on October 05, 2018, 16:07:24
Quote from: arthurking83 on October 05, 2018, 15:02:30
If you want more, then you'd want them to free up more firmware space, as that will be the limiting factor.
That is, they could remove some other feature from the cameras firmware to cater for more address space for more of those non CPU data allowances.
Non-cpu data consists of a focal length and an aperture. This can’t be more than a handful of bytes each. It would be really hard to believe that with the huge amount of code for something like face detection or the like that this tiny amount needed would be noticed at all.
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: Asle F on October 05, 2018, 16:21:29
The way it was on D2/D200 worked much better for me, and that could not need more memory than the way it is done later, probably little less.
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: Hugh_3170 on October 05, 2018, 16:40:57
Yes, I also liked the way the D200 handled non-CPU lenses.

Quote from: Asle Feten on October 05, 2018, 16:21:29
The way it was on D2/D200 worked much better for me, and that could not need more memory than the way it is done later, probably little less.
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: pluton on October 05, 2018, 16:55:51
Quote from: Asle Feten on October 05, 2018, 16:21:29
The way it was on D2/D200 worked much better for me, and that could not need more memory than the way it is done later, probably little less.
Agree...weren't you able to enter any focal length, digit by digit, instead of having to select from a canned list?
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: Hugh_3170 on October 05, 2018, 17:29:26
No unfortunately it was also a "canned" list.

Quote from: pluton on October 05, 2018, 16:55:51
Agree...weren't you able to enter any focal length, digit by digit, instead of having to select from a canned list?
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: longzoom on October 09, 2018, 16:04:19
I tried this camera yesterday. 80-400g worked great, with better stabilization. 24-70g2 was not, but will, not a big deal. So what was a show stopper for me - rain. I got a very small drop exactly at the center of the sensor. Did I  do anything wrong while switching the lenses, or this is normal for this machine to keep sensor open? Sorry, I've no time to read menu. THX in advance!  LZ
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on October 09, 2018, 16:34:27
Quote from: longzoom on October 09, 2018, 16:04:19
I tried this camera yesterday. 80-400g worked great, with better stabilization. 24-70g2 was not, but will, not a big deal. So what was a show stopper for me - rain. I got a very small drop exactly at the center of the sensor. Did I  do anything wrong while switching the lenses, or this is normal for this machine to keep sensor open? Sorry, I've no time to read menu. THX in advance!  LZ

Right, when you take the lens off, the shutter is open so you can get dirt or raindrops on it. I guess Nikon think the potential damage of touching the shutter is a greater risk than touching or soiling the sensor where it is easier to clean. But I would definitely hold the camera pointing downwards when changing lenses. I do that with DSLRs, too.
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: longzoom on October 09, 2018, 17:54:13
Yeah, that is what I do automatically, Ilkka. But fingers memory was confused by slightly different angle, so, I've turned the camera a little bit up. Was windy, it was enough. Actually, good camera, (There IS reinforcing ring on the back of mount, thanks God!), but, so far, I'll stay with my D810-850. Time and life will tell. Thank you so much!  LZ
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: pluton on October 09, 2018, 19:30:50
My Fujifilm X cameras, and all other mirrorless cameras that I've seen, keep the sensor exposed at all times except just before and just after exposure. Each single firing of the shutter is a cycle composed of <Close, Open, Close, Open>.
Title: Re: Z7 hands-on and field test
Post by: Asle F on October 09, 2018, 20:09:37
Quote from: Hugh_3170 on October 05, 2018, 17:29:26
No unfortunately it was also a "canned" list.

It was the same list as in later cameras. But there was no bank of 9 combinations of them, and one could assign a button for navigating through the list. On later cameras, one can assign a button for navigating through the bank of 9 combinations. For navigating through the whole list, one has to use the menue.