NikonGear'23

Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: RobOK on September 04, 2017, 16:27:06

Title: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: RobOK on September 04, 2017, 16:27:06
With all the talk of the D500 and the D850, the Df concept seems to not be moving forward? Smaller, lighter, full frame, emphasis on external controls? I don't frequent all the rumor sites, so maybe there have been things posted -- is there any sign of this coming?

Thanks,
Rob.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: gryphon1911 on September 04, 2017, 16:41:43
I hear nothing, not even an upgrade. My guess is that the current DF is a 1 off and will most likely not be replicated.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: RobOK on September 04, 2017, 17:57:57
I hear nothing, not even an upgrade. My guess is that the current DF is a 1 off and will most likely not be replicated.
I fear you are right. How do you compare the D500 and Df, in handling and low light focus ability ?

I am tempted by Fuji but then I am DX then why not stay Nikon.

Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on September 04, 2017, 18:06:12
D500 vs Df is a typical apple to orange comparison. Not very meaningful in my opinion. I have both, but seldom use them concurrently.

The D500 is OK with AFS lenses and Df is superb with manual focus lenses.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: RobOK on September 04, 2017, 20:30:19
D500 vs Df is a typical apple to orange comparison.

Of course. Luckily I like most fruit! The comparison came to mind as I think they are about the same weight and size although have not looked it up exactly. I was wondering how much the D500 had closed the gap on low light imaging. I love the Df sensor, but have long had problems with low light AF on the Df.

The real point of the thread was whether another Df is coming. Maybe they are stuck on what to name it.... Df10 or Df50 ?   ;D
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Roland Vink on September 04, 2017, 22:10:37
Df2 would be my guess for the name.

I think the Df has been reasonably successful for Nikon, a little more popular than expected, so there is hope they might bring out a successor.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Bent Hjarbo on September 04, 2017, 22:30:34
The Df and the D500 is two very different "animals" I have both, but they are for very different purposes. The Df is better than the D500 at low light by far, but I would never shoot sports with the Df ;)
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: gryphon1911 on September 05, 2017, 01:03:35
I fear you are right. How do you compare the D500 and Df, in handling and low light focus ability ?

I am tempted by Fuji but then I am DX then why not stay Nikon.

I use the D500 and DF for 2 very different applications.  The D500 is a work tool and the DF is a very deliberate image making machine that I use to shoot for my own pleasures.

As Bjorn stated, the DF excels at manual focus glass and lens adaptability.
AF wise, the D500 would outclass the DF in almost every metric. 
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: richardHaw on September 05, 2017, 04:59:08
there will be none. I talked to the people in charge of the Df team  :o :o :o

the Df is the last of its kind due to poor sales overseas. it is popular here, tho...
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on September 05, 2017, 05:21:52
there will be none. I talked to the people in charge of the Df team  :o :o :o

the Df is the last of its kind due to poor sales overseas. it is popular here, tho...

I really like mine. Will be sad not to see a version with the latest in available light quality.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: richardHaw on September 05, 2017, 05:34:15
it was affected by low sales overseas and also by internal restructuring :o :o :o
this is what I understood  ::)
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Harald on September 05, 2017, 09:44:21
Hi Richard,

i am sure there will be a new version: A mirrorless FX-camera is announced. D850 is released and a new 6xx or 7xx will not be mirrorless, A classic DF2 with mirror will not be released. Let us wait for 2018. ;) But i will not by a mirrorless version: Need the OVF!

Harald
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 05, 2017, 11:06:48
there will be none. I talked to the people in charge of the Df team  :o :o :o

the Df is the last of its kind due to poor sales overseas. it is popular here, tho...

What is the most important aspect of the Df to owners here at NikonGear? Is it the control layout or is it the image sensor, pentaprism and focus screen?

Why would sales be poor "overseas?"

Dave Hartman
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on September 05, 2017, 11:09:08
I meet a lot of people using the Df, thus "poor sales" must be on some relative scale ....

The Df is a totality concept and has to be approached as such. It brings enjoyment and pleasure back into one's photography.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: richardHaw on September 05, 2017, 11:17:13
many people also buy used so this is also contributing to the "poor sales". ::)
it includes me  :o :o :o

definitely relative to other cameras like the D750 which is a blockbuster.
the Df is still selling steady now here in Japan where lovers of older Nikkors are plenty  8)

Nikon's biggest market is north america.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: MFloyd on September 05, 2017, 11:18:26
A friend, who is a NPS distributor, confirmed me the relatively poor sales figures of the Df in Switzerland.  Personally I had a Df on loan for a fortnight or so: it gave me some muscle memories back from my old F2s or Nikkormats; but I'm not a nostalgic person.  The Df, certainly a very good camera, is not my cup of tea.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Bent Hjarbo on September 05, 2017, 12:44:18
I meet a lot of people using the Df, thus "poor sales" must be on some relative scale ....

The Df is a totality concept and has to be approached as such. It brings enjoyment and pleasure back into one's photography.
I agree on the enjoyment part, I am new to the Df, but it is my main camera for when action is not part of the "job".
I have found fun in all my MF Nikkors after I got the Df.
The asking price may well have something to do with the poor sales ;) It is mostly a D600 with a super sensor and a better viewfinder, and some will not like the ergonomics, but not me ;)
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on September 05, 2017, 13:05:40
I didn't buy the Df because 1) I don't like the Multi-CAM 4800 AF, it's not especially fast and has too small coverage for the FX sensor size, 2) just one focusing screen offered by Nikon, 3) doesn't use EN-EL15 series batteries which I otherwise have used in many cameras. I love the user interface. I would like to see a second version with the focusing addressed in a better way. I think also some potential buyers would have preferred a heftier, more metal build.

I do love the concept, the viewfinder, and the controls. I feel sad to hear that there isn't going to be a second version.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Airy on September 05, 2017, 13:54:58
I bought the Df as a second body (next to D800) and it became first, essentially because of the relative ease of using MF lenses. Or, reversing causality links, the Df made me like MF lenses (I already had several before, but acquired many more since then).

Manual focussing remains tricky using the Df (not that much better than using the D800), but as I am only an amateur, I can live with a few misses. Pros cannot.

To me, the successor will be any camera that will further ease the use of MF lenses. It may well be Nikon's future mirrorless. Unlike a Sony A-something, I'd expect an adapter tailored to AI(S) lenses, so these could be used in normal or stopped-down metering mode. Normal is useful in low light; stopped-down is useful for AF preview and for getting rid of possible focus shift. With sensors ever improving, only stopped-down could become fully acceptable (this is how my old Canon FD lenses work on Olympus m43).

Alternative could be some sort of D850, if indeed the viewfinder as good as advertised in another thread. Or any DSLR with MF assistance that would be better than the AF confirmation dot, and of course head-up style (I hate to look away at the focus confirmation dot, especially with the indispensible DK-17M that will move it further from the axis)
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Akira on September 05, 2017, 15:03:28
I don't want to sound like a wet blanket, but considering Nikon's business situation, a Df follower isn't likely to materialize.

Df enabled the use of old, even non-Ai, Nikkor lenses, but that doesn't contribute any increase of the sales of the current, brand new lenses.  As the more limited compatibility of the latest D3400, D5600 and D7500 indicates, Nikon is more into selling lenses of the current lineup.  I wouldn't be surprised if D610 follower, the entry-level FX model would be incompatible with all MF lenses including Ais/Ai.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on September 05, 2017, 16:57:24
They can't have it both ways. If they advertise compatibility as a salient feature separating Nikon from their competitors (as they did for a long time) they should then stand behind their words and offer compatibility across the lineup. There will be other brands who offer cameras that offer better functionality with Ai and Ai-S Nikkors if Nikon drops it. Those who want autofocus will buy autofocus lenses anyway, but there are situations where manual focus is better and Nikon should support it both in the body (offering focus aids, etc.) as well as by adding better manual focus in autofocus lenses.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Airy on September 05, 2017, 17:28:01
Precisely. And buying an A7 in the future is, for me, an option (see my "what if my Df dies" thread)

That being said, if Nikon sends me a D850 as a Xmas present, I won't say no.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Kenneth Rich on September 05, 2017, 18:32:12
I enthusiastically read all posts re the Df, like most Df lovers do, I assume.  I care not about a new Df model, though I'd happily purchase a new old Df, if I had the money.  Heck, if I had the money, I'd buy a new one a month.  I am no longer insanely happy about my Df; that madness is gone, replaced by a more rational abiding love for this unbelievably wonderful camera Nikon gave us.  For me, and, I suspect for many other Df owners, a  Df2 would be surprisingly like the one we have now.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: chambeshi on September 05, 2017, 19:05:02
On the other hand, in all of its impressive legacy, the F mount is Nikon's biggest corporate strength, however Nikon casts this in marketing lingo.

A synthesis of its core innovations into a Df2 DSLR will strengthen customer loyalty and morale. D5 AF, D810 sensor for highest DR, tilting screen with focus stacking and focus peaking. AF fine-tune yet full pre AI thru AIS compatibility. In fact, a mirrorless Df2 is achievable so complementing the DSLR Df2 as the definitive Retro-Pair

This will complement the pro D850, D500, D750 and D5 models and the prosumer D750 with consumer level & travel DX models

it will only sell more FX cameras, even if the Df2 costs US$3000 / 2500 quid

I don't want to sound like a wet blanket, but considering Nikon's business situation, a Df follower isn't likely to materialize.

Df enabled the use of old, even non-Ai, Nikkor lenses, but that doesn't contribute any increase of the sales of the current, brand new lenses.  As the more limited compatibility of the latest D3400, D5600 and D7500 indicates, Nikon is more into selling lenses of the current lineup.  I wouldn't be surprised if D610 follower, the entry-level FX model would be incompatible with all MF lenses including Ais/Ai.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Hugh_3170 on September 05, 2017, 19:26:13
A Df Mark II would be nice, especially with a decent AF and a better handgrip with the card door included in it (i.e. not on the bottom).. 

However what is more important to  all of those that use Nikon cameras is that the company builds new models that sell in large numbers and are profitable.  As a company, Nikon is not doing it easy at the moment.  That said, it is producing some excellent new lenses and cameras, so let us hope that it does turn its fortunes around in the near term and that a Df upgrade will eventuate.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on September 06, 2017, 06:40:04
If the future is for EVF, then I can dream of a Ds. No mirror, no pentaprism. Focus peaking in the rangefinder. Full frame.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Airy on September 06, 2017, 09:33:42
A Df Mark II would be nice, especially with a decent AF and a better handgrip with the card door included in it (i.e. not on the bottom).. 

However what is more important to  all of those that use Nikon cameras is that the company builds new models that sell in large numbers and are profitable.  As a company, Nikon is not doing it easy at the moment.  That said, it is producing some excellent new lenses and cameras, so let us hope that it does turn its fortunes around in the near term and that a Df upgrade will eventuate.

There are lots of high (or less high) prestige, full frame (of course), MF lenses produced by, inter alia, Zeiss, Schneider-Kreuznach, Voigtländer, Samyang and a few others. These companies do not manufacture camera bodies. What should these lenses be mounted on?

From the Nikon range, Df comes to mind; a mirrorless in the future.
From the Sony range, the Alpha 7 and 9.
From the Canon range, nothing specific.
etc.

Question is, since there is apparently a healthy (niche?) market for such lenses, there should also be matching cameras?
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Akira on September 06, 2017, 10:49:04
As for the full frame (or whatever) mirrorless Nikon, I'm curious if they learned from the apparent failure of Nikon 1 by disabling the meter with the old MF lenses via simple adapters.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 06, 2017, 11:20:34
My guess is that the mirrorless offering will feature the D850 or D5 sensor and will be available in F3 style, similar to Fuji. Combined time and iso wheel like in the X100S and, originally, the FM-2 and Aperture by aperture on a new series of lenses.

This would be much better than having two UIs cramped into one body like the DF.

PS. Now that I think more about this: what about compatabiility with AFS (mirror style) lenses?
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Bill Mellen on September 06, 2017, 12:29:46
I want to know how well the new D850 does with manual focus using the viewfinder before wishing for a new DF type camera.

Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on September 06, 2017, 12:36:20
The Df concept is about much more than just focusing manually ...
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 06, 2017, 13:02:47
The Df concept is about much more than just focusing manually ...

Focus manually, set time, aperture and ISO more consciously, cater to "slow photography", a concept many feel to have lost with digital photography and even auto everything in film days.

I feel very much reminded of the old days when I use my X100T which is roughly the same size and a little less weight than the Nikon FG. The FM-2 is bigger, see photo
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Airy on September 06, 2017, 13:50:14
The Df concept is about much more than just focusing manually ...

Yes, and reciprocally there are features that you would expect from a MF camera that the Df does not have.
It is nonetheless my favorite, in conjunction with old Nikkors and new Zeiss.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Kenneth Rich on September 06, 2017, 16:57:21
And reciprocally reciprocally, The Df is a MF camera that has some features I 'd prefer it not to have. I measure all cameras against my F2SB.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Steven Paulsen on September 13, 2017, 22:22:31
Yup......Got one bouncing on my car seat.

I got my hands on a G1 X, and shoot it with the lid closed. (It even has a "Smells like leather, NeverReady" case.)

Us bottom feeders like to improvise.

 :) 8) :)
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: richardHaw on September 16, 2017, 03:33:10
https://nikonrumors.com/2017/09/15/new-interview-with-tetsuro-goto-from-nikon-full-frame-is-the-trend-if-nikon-will-go-mirrorless-it-must-be-full-frame.aspx/

just like what i said. no Df due to poor sales. :o :o :o
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: MFloyd on September 16, 2017, 09:40:29
Thank you Richard for the article. I forgot to mention that I hated the "plastic" - lack of cold metal - feeling. I only learned later that the Df was nearly all metal. But, in my mind, the damage was done.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: richardHaw on September 16, 2017, 11:11:49
yes, plasticky  :o :o :o

and expensive ::)
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Airy on September 16, 2017, 11:23:23
Indeed. Then again, I have been lugging that camera around for three years. It went for repair in August, I missed it a lot. There must be a reason.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 16, 2017, 12:24:51
many people also buy used so this is also contributing to the "poor sales". ::)
it includes me  :o :o :o

That must mean many buy the Nikon Df and then want a different camera. They sell or trade their Df in and others buy it used.

Richard, to make the Df market healthy you need to buy another Df but this time new from an authorized Nikon dealer. Then since you don't need two Df(s) you would send the first one to me! :)

The benefit to you is you would soon buy a used Nikon Df2 and the cycle would continue. :D

Dave
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Roland Vink on September 16, 2017, 21:42:02
I hoped for a "digital FM3a" for many years. I had ended buying the D600 before the Df appeared, but I probably wouldn't have bought the Df anyway - it was much too expensive, I preferred the 24MP sensor of the D600, and the Df overall design wasn't right for me - bulky compared the FM3a and an odd hybrid of manual controls on the top deck, but looks like a normal digital camera from behind. The low-end D600 AF module wasn't a big deal for me but I'm sure that put off some buyers too.

I'm sure Nikon could make the camera less bulky today and overall specifications would be much better, but even when it was released 4 years ago I think they could have done better, the price and specifications meant they missed a large segment of the potential market. So it is cheeky for them say we need to buy Df cameras before they consider making another... :o
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: richardHaw on September 22, 2017, 06:08:54
http://richardhaw.com/2017/09/22/retrospect-nikon-df-after-4-years/

found some old pictures from the Df launch almost 4 years ago  :o :o :o
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Kenneth Rich on September 22, 2017, 16:52:43
Two important thoughts come to mind when I read all this negative/positive stuff on the most controversial camera Nikon have ever produced: First, I'm glad Nikon produced it, and second, that I bought one.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Airy on September 23, 2017, 10:58:32
... so am I. Adding a chapter to "lovers vs. spouses", this one falls into the spouse category.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on September 23, 2017, 13:21:01
The Df brought back pleasure and enjoyment in my photography. As with anything you love, there are downsides, but these you learn to live with. No difference to a spouse in that respect.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: FGAng on September 23, 2017, 13:58:51
Reading Thom Hogan's report I too think that there will not be a follow up for Df.

When it came I was, as most were, alarmed at the price, although the D4 sensor gave it a little credence.  So most thought of the Df as either an expensive D600 with retro look with a D4 sensor, or getting the D4 cheap and in a manageable package, less all the frills that I don't use.

Nostalgia got the better of me, so I bought one new, as a maybe I will like it camera and within a short time became the camera, putting the D800 into the dry cabinet almost for good - I have to continue to use the D800 for UW shooting as there is no underwater housing for the Df, and it is very expensive to replace the UW housing.

Since a year ago I bought a third party split-image screen and had almost never used AF lenses on my Df.  I also acquired a D500 recently for birding, which I am using almost exclusively on a 300/4D AFS + TC-14EII.   

If my Df dies it would be time to hunt for another in the used or NOS market.  I am not holding my breath waiting for Df2.   The rumored mirrorless, I will wait and see.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on September 23, 2017, 15:14:40
For me a plastic/rubber surface on a camera is much better than metal as a metal camera is very uncomfortable in very cold conditions (say -25C). I also find metal surfaces less comfortable to squeeze and quite slippery.
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: richardHaw on September 23, 2017, 15:19:15
 :o :o :o
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: richardHaw on September 23, 2017, 15:21:41
here is my Df with the bazooka  :o :o :o

the Df is like durian or that stinky swedish canned fish shoestroming whatever that's called. you will hate t first but you will like it later ::)

i digress, i just cannot stand that swedish fermented fish
Title: Re: Any signs of a Df-like camera?
Post by: Airy on September 23, 2017, 16:01:06
Then why don't you try kæstur hákarl ? (Icelandic variant)