NikonGear

Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: chambeshi on August 24, 2017, 16:36:25

Title: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on August 24, 2017, 16:36:25
The roll out of this eagerly awaited DSLR has generated no lack of conjecture and latterly internet leaks, claiming features that have turned out to be real (but also some pure speculation). Nikon Rumours proved impressive in its accuracy of the leaks it announced.
Some of us are committed to purchasing this camera. When - and How - are operative questions! Besides the boring issue of funds, the answers are contingent on taking the risk of early production glitches. There are also the tactics of trade in offers. Fortunately, Nikon promises the roll-out of the D850 well within a month - 7 September (as the situation stands today!)

Finally, with the official launch on 24 August, 1st hand reports on the D850 have soon begun to flood the internet. Some are useful. Besides the official promotions and specs released officially by Nikon, it will be useful to collate some of the feedback in one thread. So here are a few links to some more informative feedback on the D850 from today's launch. Most of the ones collated below have been posted on NG earlier today but it helps to pull them together in this post.

Dare one say, these specs look impressive, all in all :-)

Tokyo with feedback from interviews with Nikon engineers :
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2017/08/24/the-nikon-d850-is-here-with-exclusive-details-from-nikon-tokyo

DpReview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tJqI3KyftE

B&H https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04HpoPkH7Rw

at UK launch early today 24 August
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wNKoR6e-6A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRIimGFMkdI

http://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/nikon-d850-review-hands-on
also http://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/nikon-d850-specs-release-date-and-price-confirmed

http://www.techradar.com/reviews/nikon-d850

https://www.ephotozine.com/article/nikon-d850-hands-on-review-31314

https://youtu.be/7wNKoR6e-6A

and USA
https://fstoppers.com/gear/nikon-announces-d850-yes-its-amazing-camera-191972

2 price listings in UK with some accessories:
https://www.lcegroup.co.uk/New/nikon-d850-body_17040.html
http://blog.graysofwestminster.co.uk/

And ES-2 Slide Copier for the D850 priced by Adorama at US$139.95  https://www.adorama.com/inkes2.html?utm_source=rflaid63773


Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: jhinkey on August 24, 2017, 17:19:48
Personally going to wait for early production issues to be worked out and technical reviews - especially the DR when using fully electronic shutter - which is very useful for long tele work at sometimes slow shutter speeds in low light conditions (both of which stress the sensor DR).

Let the fun begin.

- J
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on August 24, 2017, 17:48:53
sample photos across a range of ISO - jpg and RAW (CR2) NEF files
http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/nikon_d850_photos/
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: BjÝrn RÝrslett on August 24, 2017, 19:52:12
CR2 - really?? These designate Canon RAW files ...
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: bobfriedman on August 24, 2017, 19:57:35
They are mis-labeled. They are in fact NEFs
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on August 24, 2017, 20:01:45
CR2 - really?? These designate Canon RAW files ...
yes - And cf Comment (!) to that page:
"Jeffrey G. Bank ē 4 hours ago
Lightroom will not open the raw files. Do we have to wait for Adobe to add support for the D850? And Nikon Raw images are not CR2 files, they are NEF. I can't believe I have to tell YOU that."
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: MFloyd on August 24, 2017, 21:02:39
I downloaded one of these files: NEF of course; size 30.8 MB. Nor my Mac or Lr are able to open the file.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: BjÝrn RÝrslett on August 24, 2017, 21:06:28
Photo Ninja opens these raw files, but the pixel dimension is reported incorrectly for 45.7 MPix ?? (says 7104 x 4728 pix, or about 33 MPix). PN possible interprets the file header info incorrectly (??)

All other EXIF including the data on the lens appear to be ship-shape.

With the uncertainty of whether PN actually reads the file correctly, there is an amazing dynamic range available and colours looked pretty good (no software profile in PN for it though, so high colour fidelity is not to be expected (yet).
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on August 24, 2017, 21:38:14
Of course the stacking feature should be tried as soon as the D850 is here; what is currently considered the best software for that (Zerene Stacker, Helicon Focus, ??) ?
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ann on August 24, 2017, 21:59:33
I happen to have software which can open the D850 NEFs and tried it on just this NEF which looks pretty nice to me ó even down-sampled to 25% and as an 80-quality JPG

I think that you can be reasonably confident that when the cameras actually ship, updated software for editing its files will have been released.

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Chris Dees on August 24, 2017, 22:31:39
Just came back from a NPS meeting in the Netherlands.
There was a presentation of a Nikon photographer/ambassador; Little Shao. He's an action photographer and showed some impressive work with the D850.
After the presentation there was a possibility to check the D850 out (they had 4 of them).
I asked if i could put a card in it and to my surprise they said yes. ;D
So now I have some RAW-images but no software to develop.

So Ann please...., which software you're using?

This is an SOOC JPG D850, 28E, @6400 F1.4 just downsized to 900px in PS
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ann on August 24, 2017, 22:38:24
Chris:

My software has not yet been released publicly but I am very confident that it will be released in time for the arrival of the first shipment of D850 cameras.

Meanwhile, you can open and edit JPGs from those cameras — as you discovered.

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Chris Dees on August 24, 2017, 22:40:55
I thought I could import them as a DNG-file, but it doesn't work. :(
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: MILLIREHM on August 24, 2017, 22:43:21
Some of the rumors appeared to become reality, some do not

Would be interesting to examine how big the cache is, and whether switching to DX can make it faster or not
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Chris Dees on August 24, 2017, 22:48:12
Some of the rumors appeared to become reality, some do not

Would be interesting to examine how big the cache is, and whether switching to DX can make it faster or not

51 RAW's (large).
No difference in speed between FX and DX. With the grip you can get 9 fps in stead of 7.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on August 24, 2017, 22:48:57
Just came back from a NPS meeting in the Netherlands.
There was a presentation of a Nikon photographer/ambassador; Little Shao. He's an action photographer and showed some impressive work with the D850.
After the presentation there was a possibility to check the D850 out (they had 4 of them).
I asked if i could put a card in it and to my surprise they said yes. ;D
So now I have some RAW-images but no software to develop.

So Ann please...., which software you're using?

This is an SOOC JPG D850, 28E, @6400 F1.4 just downsized to 900px in PS
Thanks for this interesting feedback. So it appears Capture NX will not work on the new D850 raw files?

here's a couple more summaries
https://nikonrumors.com/2017/08/24/what-others-are-saying-about-the-nikon-d850.aspx/#more-115179

and Little Shao in Prom clips
https://youtu.be/-RD9orbiwgE

https://youtu.be/zVmlMpwqOu4
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ann on August 24, 2017, 22:49:54
DNG will also need an upgrade to access the new camera profiles for the D850.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on August 24, 2017, 22:50:30
D850 compared against D810

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/08/24/nikon-d850-vs-nikon-d810-specifications-comparison.aspx/#more-115275

and presentation slides
https://nikonrumors.com/2017/08/24/nikon-d850-presentation-slides.aspx/
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Chris Dees on August 24, 2017, 22:59:01
The deeper grip of the D850 feels much better for me as I have small hands.
The touch screen is better than with the D500. You can go thru the menus with the touch screen.

The rep demonstrated the silent shooting and I was impressed with the AF in LiveView.
Also the focus peeking is a nice feature in LV.

The camera is very responsive with everything.

Files are large. The ones I have are from 61-75Mb
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on August 24, 2017, 23:17:50
Thanks again! All the more impressive summary (and intimidating files but to be expected!)

The web is swamped with rehashed info - mostly soundbites as the D850 launch stirs the pot.... best to await proper test reports

So a final trench of Previews - the Wex video is revealing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0y9md98rt0

http://www.wexphotographic.com/blog/reviews/nikon-d850-first-look-review--a-high-resolution-force-to-be-reckoned-with/

http://gearopen.com/cameras/nikon-d850-hands-on-review-first-impressions-64476/

http://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/nikon-d850

Today's been a long day in August but stimulating :-)


The deeper grip of the D850 feels much better for me as I have small hands.
The touch screen is better than with the D500. You can go thru the menus with the touch screen.

The rep demonstrated the silent shooting and I was impressed with the AF in LiveView.
Also the focus peeking is a nice feature in LV.

The camera is very responsive with everything.

Files are large. The one I have are from 61-75Mb
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on August 25, 2017, 03:20:28
If my D800 is worth at best $850.00 (USD) then what is my D300s worth? -$850.00?? 

The only thing (stupid phone) that I own that's worth more than $3,400.00 is my house. I asked Satan and he isn't interested in buying my soul. He said he's got it in the bag anyway.

The BSI sensor, 0.75x viewfinder and medium NEF has my attention. The D5/D500 AF would be so welcome.

Dave Hartman who is forlorn...
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on August 25, 2017, 07:40:13
a couple of reports of interest....
https://nikonrumors.com/2017/08/23/thinking-of-upgrading-to-the-d850-this-is-how-much-you-can-get-for-your-current-full-frame-nikon-dslr-camera.aspx/

First Dynamic Range estimates of the D850:
http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D810,Nikon%20D850

from the  D850 Directory collated by NR - a most useful compilation :-)

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/08/24/nikon-d850-directory-the-big-recap.aspx/
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: arthurking83 on August 25, 2017, 08:12:50
Thanks for this interesting feedback. So it appears Capture NX will not work on the new D850 raw files?

.....

CNX-D(version 1.4.3) is struggling to preview the D850 NEF files.
It says generating preview, but doesn't seem to be able too.

ViewNX2(version 2.10.3) can open the NEF file, but with the caveat that you preview the file in JPG mode(making sure the small NEF icon in the upper LH side is not yellowed).
Of course this means that you can only preview the embedded jpg file in the NEF file, but it still gives you an indication as to how the NEF file has rendered.

We now await the release of CNX-D version 1.4.6, which is the version that Nikon seem to have used to generate jpgs from the NEF files.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on August 25, 2017, 09:07:57
Nikon USA has the .pdf brochure online:

http://cdn-4.nikon-cdn.com/e/Q5NM96RZZo-YRYNeYvAi9beHK4x3L-8h09FYyKWnWU6L2l14O7STBw==/Misc/D850_brochure.pdf
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on August 25, 2017, 09:09:07
CNX-D(version 1.4.3) is struggling to preview the D850 NEF files.
It says generating preview, but doesn't seem to be able too.

ViewNX2(version 2.10.3) can open the NEF file, but with the caveat that you preview the file in JPG mode(making sure the small NEF icon in the upper LH side is not yellowed).
Of course this means that you can only preview the embedded jpg file in the NEF file, but it still gives you an indication as to how the NEF file has rendered.

We now await the release of CNX-D version 1.4.6, which is the version that Nikon seem to have used to generate jpgs from the NEF files.
just read feedback to the post of these images that Android RAW2DNG app (free) works converting to DNG [ http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/nikon_d850_photos/ ]
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on August 25, 2017, 09:36:06
Nikon USA has the .pdf brochure online:

http://cdn-4.nikon-cdn.com/e/Q5NM96RZZo-YRYNeYvAi9beHK4x3L-8h09FYyKWnWU6L2l14O7STBw==/Misc/D850_brochure.pdf

One of the (imho) interesting tidbits from the pdf:

"In addition to offering superb autofocus performance, the D850 also makes manual
focusing more precise. Its electronic rangefinder identifies whether a subject is in focus
more accurately than ever before, allowing you to capture sharp images when focusing
in manual mode, or using a manual focus lens."
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: John Geerts on August 25, 2017, 09:44:01
One of the (imho) interesting tidbits from the pdf:

"In addition to offering superb autofocus performance, the D850 also makes manual
focusing more precise. Its electronic rangefinder identifies whether a subject is in focus
more accurately than ever before, allowing you to capture sharp images when focusing
in manual mode, or using a manual focus lens."
That is a very interesting quote.  Makes me wonder how it will be done. With the 'green' dot?
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on August 25, 2017, 09:48:04
That is a very interesting quote.  Makes me wonder how it will be done. With the 'green' dot?

Yes, with the "green" dot. It is mentioned top-left on page 62.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on August 25, 2017, 11:46:25
Already on the D5 I find the focus confirmation dot to have less range where it is lit than on the D810. With the latter I would have to study both ends of the range and make a selection in the middle of the range.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on August 25, 2017, 14:20:23
What I find exciting is that the negative scanner supports in camera conversion to positive. Meaning it is a one-step-process. Plus the 2.8/60 micro is mentioned as the recommended optic for the ES2, so I can have my slide scanning solution and negative scanning solution and can sell all the stuff that I just bought to interested parties...

Plus the D3 and D600 possibly and the 1.4/24G. The beloved  D600 only after a deep test of the tonal response of my D850. The first shots on the net seem more than promising

It is no long wait. If the first shipment arrives here at 7 September it is only 13 days to survive without her.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on August 25, 2017, 15:20:26
I just had a longer chat with an NPS guy and my brick and mortar. The speed option increasing the fps from 7 to 9 will cost roughly 700Ä and consist of the battery pack mb-d18, one D5 battery, one body cap / placeholder connecting the D5 battery with the mb-d18 and a battery charger.

Only the 12.4 Volt of the D5 Battery will make the shutter unit move faster.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on August 25, 2017, 15:24:44
NPS also said that the speed does not increase with smaller size files, because the speed is limited by Voltage and shutter unit, BUT the buffer size increases with M RAW from 51 to 80 frames until the camera gets slower. As I recall this number is for 7fps and Lexar 2933x cards.

I do not care much about buffer size, do not remember a situation where I needed more than 10 fast frames in a row.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on August 25, 2017, 15:32:09


It is no long wait. If the first shipment arrives here at 7 September it is only 13 days to survive without her.

Availability within 2 weeks after announcement is not bad at all, but how do you handle the itching for 13 days??  :o
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on August 25, 2017, 15:55:20
I just had a longer chat with an NPS guy and my brick and mortar. The speed option increasing the fps from 7 to 9 will cost roughly 700Ä and consist of the battery pack mb-d18, one D5 battery, one body cap / placeholder connecting the D5 battery with the mb-d18 and a battery charger.

Only the 12.4 Volt of the D5 Battery will make the shutter unit move faster.

Hi Frank
there has been some discussion of benefits of the ENEL18 on the D500. I plan to get one soon for my D500 as I have the much less expensive Meilke grip, which works and handles perfectly). As with their 2000mAh ENEL15, Hahnel have also cloned the ENEL18  http://www.hahnel.co.za/irish-shop/hlel18/

fyi https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3999603

The DSTE clone with dedicated charger. It has positive recommendations; one I will invest in, as I often spend days 'out there' with no mains power in bushcamps etc. 12v is the viable option including using a portable & compact solar panel:

https://www.amazon.com/EN-EL18A-Replacement-Li-ion-Battery-MB-D12/dp/B00N0E5KZI

There are also 3rd party chargers  for the ENEL18 eg  https://www.amazon.com/Kastar-Charger-Battery-EN-EL18-EN-EL18a/dp/B01LHNNSAM/ref=sr_1_15?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1502535707&sr=1-15&keywords=EN-EL18A+charger (https://www.amazon.com/Kastar-Charger-Battery-EN-EL18-EN-EL18a/dp/B01LHNNSAM/ref=sr_1_15?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1502535707&sr=1-15&keywords=EN-EL18A+charger)
work with mains AC + 12v DC inputs

best

woody
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on August 25, 2017, 16:19:02
How do you know that the third party products will actually increase the fps rate to 9? It could require some chip to allow it to happen. Did the D700 and D300 allow full 8fps with third party batteries and grips?
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Erik Lund on August 25, 2017, 18:20:40
I'm using the D810 with original grip, was included in the price, and using the EN-EL18a - The power it delivers gives great comfort and confidence not to run out of power even during very extensive shooting assignments!
The handling is great although it is a heavy set.

BTW very seldom do I have need for the fast FPS than D810 actually delivers.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on August 25, 2017, 18:47:57
According to the brochure linked above the number of still images that can be taken with the D850 on a single EN-EL15a or EN-EL15 battery has increased to 1840, compared to 1200 with the D810on a single EN-EL15 battery (all in the CIPA Standards test). That is a significant improvement.

The brochure also confirms that the D850 works with the current EN-EL15 batteries (as used in D800, D800e, D810, D500 etc), and not only with the EN-EL15a it comes with.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on August 25, 2017, 19:16:08
The standard battery EN-EL-15 (or two of them) will not increase the Voltage and not increase the speed. It will only extend the range. The range of a EN-EL18 combined with the internal EN-EL15a is said to be more than 5000 shots. Only the EN-EL18a or clones will deliver the 10,8 volt necessary to drive the shutter unit faster, said the NPS guy. I do not know yet if third party batteries are supported or if some chip response is necessary.

I know e.g. that my Eneloops will deliver 10 to 11 Volts (8 x 1.3 to 1.4) to the system but are not allowed for firmware updates, so they might also not be allowed for fps boost.

The NPS guy said that the EN-EL18a delivers 12,4V, I just looked it up. Not true. 10.8V is the real number. I will give it a try.


Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on August 25, 2017, 19:32:12
According to the brochure linked above the number of still images that can be taken with the D850 on a single EN-EL15a or EN-EL15 battery has increased to 1840, compared to 1200 with the D810on a single EN-EL15 battery (all in the CIPA Standards test). That is a significant improvement.

No. In cameras with built in flash, if I recall correctly. the CIPA test requires that the flash is used for every other shot. The D850 has no built in flash which increases the number of shots you can get. But if you performed the CIPA test on the D810 without using the flash you would get a higher number as well.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on August 25, 2017, 20:29:23
I just measured the Voltage eight fresh eneloop pros deliver to my D500: 10.89V (1,36V measured per single cell) and these possess 8 x 2500 mAh (also measured with my chargers). So fps could come.

But: at 10,33 Volt (1,28V measured per single cell) the eneloops potter along and still drive my D500 after some usage.

I guess the EN-EL18a (and clones) has a more stable Voltage supply...
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on August 25, 2017, 20:44:23
According to the brochure linked above the number of still images that can be taken with the D850 on a single EN-EL15a or EN-EL15 battery has increased to 1840, compared to 1200 with the D810on a single EN-EL15 battery (all in the CIPA Standards test). That is a significant improvement.

Please keep in mind that lithium Ion batteries like the battery in your car do not do well when it is fully discharged. If the test says 1840 think 920 as it's best not to deplete the battery more than 50% on a regular basis. Even NiMH batteries should not be regularly discharged below 50%.

If one thinks they need two batteries then buy three or maybe four. At the end of the day recharge any battery that is between 40% and 80%. There is no harm in charging a battery early. Before a major shoot top off every battery you carry.

This is the best place I've found for battery information...

Battery University (http://batteryuniversity.com/)

Dave Hartman
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Bent Hjarbo on August 25, 2017, 20:47:49
How do you know that the third party products will actually increase the fps rate to 9? It could require some chip to allow it to happen. Did the D700 and D300 allow full 8fps with third party batteries and grips?
Yes the D700 with grip and 8 AA batteries will give full fps.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on August 25, 2017, 20:50:12
How do you know that the third party products will actually increase the fps rate to 9? It could require some chip to allow it to happen. Did the D700 and D300 allow full 8fps with third party batteries and grips?
Good question. The EN-EL18a is for the D5 as well as D4 and D4s apparently and also the D500. It is listed to work in new grip of the D850, and also a new EN-ELb Presumably 3rd party batteries eg Hahnel that conform to ENEL18a will work in MB-D18 too as do 3rd party chargers. The EN-EL18 is only listed for D4 and D4s but I've read elsewhere it also works in the D5 and D500. Nikon's guidelines is vague on all this

http://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/batteries/en-el18a-rechargeable-li-ion-battery.html#tab-ProductDetail-ProductTabs-CompatibleWith

http://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/batteries/en-el18-rechargeable-li-ion-battery.html#tab-ProductDetail-ProductTabs-CompatibleWith

http://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/power-packs/mb-d17-multi-battery-power-pack.html#tab-ProductDetail-ProductTabs-Overview

If the D850 works with the new chipped better ie EN-EL18b it would be in the detailed specs of the 90page documentation pdf [link above], where a full adobe search picks out several statements on power requirements eg ...."The D850 captures massive, sharp 45-megapixel images at 9 fps with the optional MB-D18 Multi-Power Battery Pack
(with EN-EL18b/EN-EL18a Rechargeable Li-ion Battery*1) attached, or at 7 fps with the body only."

Unsure if 8 AA batteries will deliver 9fps in the D850
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on August 25, 2017, 20:50:53
Please keep in mind that lithium Ion batteries like the battery in your car do not do well when it is fully discharged. If the test says 1840 think 920 as it's best not to deplete the battery more than 50% on a regular basis. Even NiMH batteries should not be regularly discharged below 50%.

If one thinks they need two batteries then buy three or maybe four. At the end of the day recharge any battery that is between 40% and 80%. There is no harm in charging a battery early. Before a major shoot top off every battery you carry.

This is the best place I've found for battery information...

Battery University (http://batteryuniversity.com/)

Dave Hartman
Bookmarked - Thank You!
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on August 25, 2017, 20:52:07
I guess the EN-EL18a (and clones) has a more stable Voltage supply...

NiMH batteries deliver very stable voltage, 1.2v to 1.25v but when fresh out of the charger they deliver more for a time, 1.3v to 1.4v. They should be warm but never hot when coming out of the charger. They will produce their rated voltage through out their use then drop very quickly.

What I know about batteries comes mostly from Battery U and some from tech sheets from the makers.

Dave
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on August 25, 2017, 21:07:54
No. In cameras with built in flash, if I recall correctly. the CIPA test requires that the flash is used for every other shot. The D850 has no built in flash which increases the number of shots you can get. But if you performed the CIPA test on the D810 without using the flash you would get a higher number as well.

You are right, according to CIPA every other shot requires full power flash. The comparison between D850 and D810 therefore doesn't make that much sense.

Question remains why a new EN-EL15a battery, at least performance between EN-EL15a and current EN-EL15 is claimed to be the same.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on August 25, 2017, 21:11:58
Please keep in mind that lithium Ion batteries like the battery in your car do not do well when it is fully discharged. If the test says 1840 think 920 as it's best not to deplete the battery more than 50% on a regular basis. Even NiMH batteries should not be regularly discharged below 50%.

If one thinks they need two batteries then buy three or maybe four. At the end of the day recharge any battery that is between 40% and 80%. There is no harm in charging a battery early. Before a major shoot top off every battery you carry.

This is the best place I've found for battery information...

Battery University (http://batteryuniversity.com/)

Dave Hartman

Thanks for the link Dave.

Two batteries normally get me through the day with the D800e, I still use the original and spare bought in 2012. They still function well.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on August 25, 2017, 21:12:29
If I recall correctly the new EN-EL15a gives more consistent power in the cold. The capacity is the same.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on August 25, 2017, 21:21:41
If I recall correctly the new EN-EL15a gives more consistent power in the cold. The capacity is the same.

Sounds plausible, looks the same as what happened switching from D70 to D200 when the battery also went from black to grey (EN-EL3 to EN-EL3e). One or two spares it will be, good that they also can be used in both my D800e and D500.

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: arthurking83 on August 25, 2017, 22:20:36
What I find exciting is that the negative scanner supports in camera conversion to positive. Meaning it is a one-step-process. Plus the 2.8/60 micro is mentioned as the recommended optic for the ES2, so I can have my slide scanning solution and negative scanning solution and can sell all the stuff that I just bought to interested parties...

....

I found this interesting too(having previously done it with a PB-4/PS-4 setup too).
The only concern with the new feature is that it appears to be limited to jpg only.

I tried my best to set up a Picture Control(D300 and D800E) to do the conversion, but Picture Control tone inversion process only works on the brightness/tone channels, not on the colour channel.
That is, you can invert the image in camera, but only the brightness, not colour reversal. Close but not close enough.

So I'm now curious as to Nikon's engineering thinking... the camera obviously can do colour reversal(if this new feature works as described) .. so why not just allow the process to work as a Picture Control?
Once again Nikon's thinking process appears to be distorted and backwards!
 
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Chris Dees on August 25, 2017, 22:50:28
A few from last night.
Processed NEFs by Ann (thanks :))

D850, 70-200E, ISO16000, F4.5
No noise reduction
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on August 26, 2017, 01:41:46
I found this interesting too(having previously done it with a PB-4/PS-4 setup too).
The only concern with the new feature is that it appears to be limited to jpg only.

I tried my best to set up a Picture Control(D300 and D800E) to do the conversion, but Picture Control tone inversion process only works on the brightness/tone channels, not on the colour channel.
That is, you can invert the image in camera, but only the brightness, not colour reversal. Close but not close enough.

So I'm now curious as to Nikon's engineering thinking... the camera obviously can do colour reversal(if this new feature works as described) .. so why not just allow the process to work as a Picture Control?
Once again Nikon's thinking process appears to be distorted and backwards!
 

As I recall most color negative are not simply negative but have some orange mask to take into calculation.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on August 26, 2017, 08:43:53
Feedback on dpreview with a few images from sports photographer Andrew Hancock testing a pre-production D850 shooting sports action and portraits in low light

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/2645101104/exclusive-nikon-d850-high-res-samples-and-pro-shooting-experience (https://www.dpreview.com/articles/2645101104/exclusive-nikon-d850-high-res-samples-and-pro-shooting-experience)
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: arthurking83 on August 26, 2017, 09:20:30
As I recall most color negative are not simply negative but have some orange mask to take into calculation.

Not sure what this entails, but when I did my lot of negs, I used CaptureNX2 to process them.
CNX2 didn't have any 'one click' method to reverse negatives, but someone commented that reversing the curve may do the trick.
In CNX2 it did .. perfectly(if exposure was within a decent range), and from that point I saved in CNX2 as a batch process, and applied to all neg to NEF captures.
ViewNX2 didn't have the ability to do tone curves, but it seemingly did via the Picture Control add on.
But what that did, was simply reverse the brightness/tone curve, and leave the colour channels as is. So your darks would turn bright, but your greens wouldn't turn red, or blues turn yellow .. etc.
An interesting Picture Control setting, but definitely not colour reversal. So CNX2 was my only way forward from there.

Never touched any colour masks .. orange or any other colour.

So if the D850 has this one click colour reversal feature, then obviously it can be done in camera.
My assumption when trying to use the Picture Control software was that the camera simply couldn't do the colour reversal.
D850 obviously can, but I would have preferred to see it done as a Picture Control variable.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Jan Anne on August 26, 2017, 10:11:08
The NPS guy said that the EN-EL18a delivers 12,4V, I just looked it up. Not true. 10.8V is the real number. I will give it a try.
You are both right, all li-ion batteries label the resting voltage (3.6-3.7V per cell) and not its max voltage when fully charged (4.2V per cell).

The EN-EL18a uses three li-ion cells so the volt range is between 9 and 12.6V.
- 3 x 3.6V = 10.8V on the sticker
- 3 x 4.2V = 12.6V when fully charged
- 3 x ca 3V = 9V when empty

The EN-EL15 uses two li-ion cells so the volt range is between 6 and 8.4V.
- 2 x 3.6V = 7.2V on the sticker
- 2 x 4.2V = 8.4V when fully charged
- 2 x ca 3V = 6V when empty

With 8 AA NiMH batteries, the volt range is between 6.4 and 11.6V
- 8 x 1.2V =  9.6V on the sticker
- 8 x 1.45V = 11.6V when fully charged
- 8 x 0.8V = 6.4V when empty

So the EN-EL18a starts at 12.6V and keeps it well above 9V which is above the 8.4V maximum of the EN-EL15. The AA pack starts in the volt range of the EN-EL18a but midway will drop below 9V into the lower volt range of the EN-EL15, so the camera should still work but the lower voltage isn't enough to drive the higher FPS.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on August 26, 2017, 12:09:21
compares D850 ISO performance and also against D800

http://www.danvojtech.cz/blog/2017/08/nikon-d850/

Feedback on dpreview with a few images from sports photographer Andrew Hancock testing a pre-production D850 shooting sports action and portraits in low light

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/2645101104/exclusive-nikon-d850-high-res-samples-and-pro-shooting-experience (https://www.dpreview.com/articles/2645101104/exclusive-nikon-d850-high-res-samples-and-pro-shooting-experience)
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: paul_k on August 26, 2017, 12:57:31
Shot a series of high ISO JPG's at the D850 introduction party organized by NPS Netherlands

When I asked if I could put an SD card in the body, to my surprise that was OK, since it apparently already was a full production (so not a pre production, yet to be perfected) copy

Didn't go for RAW's as there I have no software for post processing those files yet, so instead shot a number of JPG from 500 to 12800 ISO

Downloaded with Nikon Transfer, opened in Nikon NX 2.4.6, no postprocessing, no sharpening, no fiddling with contrast etc (guess that amounts to SOOC)

Tried uploading some pictures, but the IQ has gotten compromised in the process,
while pictures are not shown under the below captions, so the links are also included

500 ASA 100% crop
(Shot in A mode, which resulted in a shutterspeed of 1/15th, so sorry for the blurry picture
http://m2.i.pbase.com/g10/20/670620/2/166085592.qttHEWwc.jpg

iso12800 100% crop of 1/500)
http://m8.i.pbase.com/g10/20/670620/2/166085608.dgokb48V.jpg

You can find the whole set (500-1000-2000-4000-8000-12800 ASA, didn't care to go any higher)
of full images, crop of 100% enlargements, and the Exif data over here
http://www.pbase.com/paul_k/d_850
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Akira on August 26, 2017, 13:06:09
When I asked if I could put an SD card in the body, to my surprise that was OK, since it apparently already was a full production (so not a pre production, yet to be perfected) copy

At japanese retailers, D850 is announced to be delivered on September 8th.  So, it would not be surprising that the tested sample was the full production model.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Chris Dees on August 26, 2017, 22:26:41
According to the reps I spoke they where production cameras (I guess that's why I was allowed to put a card in it).
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: bobfriedman on August 26, 2017, 22:35:22
Nikon D850 is made in Thailand

i am definitely waiting until March/April
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ann on August 27, 2017, 00:20:44
For a D5S, Bob?
 ;D
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Hugh_3170 on August 27, 2017, 05:25:58
Nice tutorial Jan Anne - very useful. A "like" or a "+1",  ;D.

Whilst I was aware of the basic numbers/cell  that you used, many are not aware of these and it is good how you have used these to frame your response.


You are both right, all li-ion batteries label the resting voltage (3.6-3.7V) and not its max voltage when fully charged (4.2V).

The EN-EL18a uses three li-ion cells so the volt range is between 9 and 12.6V.
- 3 x 3.6V = 10.8V on the sticker
- 3 x 4.2V = 12.6V when fully charged
- 3 x ca 3V = 9V when empty

The EN-EL15 uses two li-ion cells so the volt range is between 6 and 8.4V.
- 2 x 3.6V = 7.2V on the sticker
- 2 x 4.2V = 8.4V when fully charged
- 2 x ca 3V = 6V when empty

With 8 AA NiMH batteries, the volt range is between 6.4 and 11.6V
- 8 x 1.2V =  9.6V on the sticker
- 8 x 1.45V = 11.6V when fully charged
- 8 x 0.8V = 6.4V when empty

So the EN-EL18a starts at 12.6V and keeps it well above 9V which is above the 8.4V maximum of the EN-EL15. The AA pack starts in the volt range of the EN-EL18a but midway will drop below 9V into the lower volt range of the EN-EL15, so the camera should still work but the lower voltage isn't enough to drive the higher FPS.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Jan Anne on August 27, 2017, 10:38:18
Nice tutorial Jan Anne - very useful. A "like" or a "+1",  ;D.

Whilst I was aware of the basic numbers/cell  that you used, many are not aware of these and it is good how you have used these to frame your response.
Thanks Hugh :)

And thank you for the (hidden) suggestion for the "numbers/cell", I've slightly updated my post so the intro aligns with the rest of the story.

As a general comment, the figures used for the li-ion cells are for the general li-ion cells and might vary based on the used chemistry and technologies.

The ultra safe LiFePo chemistry has a resting voltage of 3.2V and a max voltage of 3.65V per cell, most common application is the lightweight batteries for motor cycles but I also use them in vintage flashlights designed for the 3V lithium batteries.

Some li-ion cells can be charged up to 4.35V, these have a resting voltage of 3.85V. Tesla uses these to cramp in just a little more juice for a little extra runtime at the same weight, DJI also uses them in the drone batteries for the same reason.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: richardHaw on August 27, 2017, 11:52:18
molested a Nikon D850 this afternoon  :o :o :o
for some reasons it felt smaller and more dense than the D800  ::)
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on August 27, 2017, 12:49:14
Yes, the major concern over WHEN to get one's D850 is the risk of teething problems in production. But these might not always be apparent early. The D750 has revealed these can take months to surface, and/or appears as a glitch in one or more production runs. Anticipated high demands for the D850 could stress quality control in production should Nikon struggle to meet consumer demand...

A lower priced D810 will attract many of us but silent shutter [of the D850] will confer a huge +ve for wildlife in many situations. Compared to the D850, the D850 has faster fps with improved ISO and DR.
Associated questions arise as to the role of high performance DX bodies. The  DX bodies become redundant, with only factors being lower cost, and they weigh less than this 1kg FX ($3000 + ) as the D850 specs say it will shoot DX RAW at 25 mp with DoF benefits and cropping factor.
As I understand initial reports and specs, one will also have the - by all accounts wonderful - D850 viewfinder to shoot a cropped DX :-)

So do I trade in my young D500 ?!? Or wait in case D850 has glitches? Oh the agony....

Nikon D850 is made in Thailand

i am definitely waiting until March/April
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: bobfriedman on August 27, 2017, 13:01:14
For a D5S, Bob?
 ;D

i think my D5 is good for awhile..  I would like a resolution upgrade for it, but i don't expect a D5s to do that.

I am interested in a D850.. but i made the mistake of buying a D810 right away and sent it back.. i think i can wait 6 months.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Chris Dees on August 27, 2017, 13:49:56
I now have time reading the brochure I got last Thursday.
There's a kind of "recommended lens list" which I find a little strange

"With their exceptionally high resolving power, which makes full use of 45 megapixels, NIKKOR lenses are a perfect partner for the D850, allowing
photographers in every field to better capture the essence of their vision, and render every delicate tone or nuance. Thanks to Nikonís superb
optical technology, they provide sharp resolution even at the periphery of an image, combined with elaborately designed, beautiful image-blur
characteristics. Many lenses feature the anti-reflective Nano Crystal Coat, which effectively reduces ghost and flare. They are also designed
to reproduce point light sources as point images as much as possible. NIKKOR lenses are powerful tools for professionals looking to ensure
brilliantly sharp images regardless of the subject, environment or lighting conditions."

And then a sum-up with a short description.

AF-S 24-70/2.8E VR
AF-S 14-24/2.8G
AF-S 20/1.8G
AF-S 24/1.4G
AF-S 105/1.4E
AF-S 400/2.8E FL
PC Nikkor 19/4.0E
AF-S Fisheye 8-15/3.5-4.5E

I'm missing a few like AF-S 28/1.4E, AF-S 70-200/2.8E, AF-S 500/4.0E, AF-S 600/4.0E and perhaps a few more.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on August 27, 2017, 14:28:20
Any bets on whether the D850 mirror box is alloy or poly? The brochure only shows the back of the camera.

Dave
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Bent Hjarbo on August 27, 2017, 15:11:12
Any bets on whether the D850 mirror box is alloy or poly? The brochure only shows the back of the camera.

Dave

My bet is poly, as in D810 and D500
Bent
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: richardHaw on August 27, 2017, 15:52:05
i have some RAW files here, but they cant be opened by LR for now  :o :o :o
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on August 27, 2017, 17:12:00
I now have time reading the brochure I got last Thursday.
There's a kind of "recommended lens list" which I find a little strange

"...Many lenses feature the anti-reflective Nano Crystal Coat, which effectively reduces ghost and flare. They are also designed
to reproduce point light sources as point images as much as possible. NIKKOR lenses are powerful tools for professionals looking to ensure
brilliantly sharp images regardless of the subject, environment or lighting conditions."

I'm not certain what you find strange - the lenses or the existence of the shortlist - but I can say that I believe it is motivated as much by ensuring users have a good experience as it is for marketing.

I've been using the Canon D5S R recently and having 50 mpx available is a recipe for disappointment. It isn't that the results are bad, it is that there is the capability to go that much deeper into them that those point light sources may not look so much like a point if you have a bit of motion blur, some coma in the lens or anything else. If we view at the same size as the 16mpx images which come out of the Df, all of that disappears, (well, deficiencies in dynamic range and color rendition don't ..) but in the modern world the results from a new camera are judged and debated through "100% crop" or other attempts at equivalence. In that world, Nikon is trying to make sure their results are with the lenses which work best on the camera. Why would you leave that part of the equation to chance?

For the rest of the photographers in the world who are concerned with whether their vision is realized, the lens list can be taken with a grain of salt. High resolution just gives you more capability to pull what you want out of the camera. I'd use the D5S all the time except that is does not perform as well as the Df in the conditions I tend to be shooting in.

The D850 seems like it will be a great camera for Nikon. Can't wait to see it the real world results over the next few months.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ann on August 27, 2017, 17:12:30
My guess is that upgrades for de-mosaicing software will be publicly released on or just before the same day on which the cameras ship (which I believe is supposed to be on 7th September?).
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on August 27, 2017, 17:25:43
Likely those lenses are what Nikon would like to sell more of while thinking they are among the much larger collection of Nikkors that will perform excellently on the D850. They probably don't mention 70-200/2.8 FL or 28/1.4 because presumably as very new lenses they are selling well without additional promotion... also 200/2, 300/2.8 not mentioned.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on August 27, 2017, 17:36:41
The online brochure does mention the newer Nikkors like the 70-200/2.8E FL, the 28/1.4E, the 8-15 fisheye and the 19/4E PC; does the printed brochure differ from the online??
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on August 27, 2017, 17:49:12
My guess is that upgrades for de-mosaicing software will be publicly released on or just before the same day on which the cameras ship (which I believe is supposed to be on 7th September?).

Also a nice opportunity for Adobe to release lens profiles for the newer Nikkors like the 28mm f/1.4E ED and the 8-15mm f/3.5-4.5E ED fisheye   :)
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: John G on August 27, 2017, 18:19:55
If the arithmatic is correct, a D500 and a D850 have a almost  identical pixel size. So a DX  crop in a D850 is not required to produce a image with the equivalent pixel count as a D500,  the D850  will have a almost identical pixel count in the same size sensor space of the D500. This will allow for a cropping of a image  to be worked down from FX to DX and further with hardly any loss of pixels in the image when comparing to the D500.
The maths above and the anticipated better ISO performance, is the reasoning behind the D500 now becoming obsolete. 
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on August 27, 2017, 18:43:34
Not exactly, the D500 can do 10fps and is about half the price of the D850 + grip + D5 battery and charger required to get to 9fps. The viewfinder magnification of the D500 is 1x vs. 0.75x for the D850. The smaller mirror and shutter of the DX model very likely create less sound and vibration.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: ColinM on August 27, 2017, 18:47:47
The DX bodies become redundant,

Bit simplistic surely?
If you're happy to stay with DX (eg. for telephoto reach) and don't already own a current body, the D500 is a far cheaper option.

Quote from: chambeshi link=topric=6443.msg103428#msg103428 date=1503830954
So do I trade in my young D500 ?!?
Let me know if you want to sell me yours for a good price ;)
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on August 27, 2017, 19:14:20
I now have time reading the brochure I got last Thursday.
There's a kind of "recommended lens list" which I find a little strange

AF-S 24-70/2.8E VR
AF-S 14-24/2.8G
AF-S 20/1.8G
AF-S 24/1.4G
AF-S 105/1.4E
AF-S 400/2.8E FL
PC Nikkor 19/4.0E
AF-S Fisheye 8-15/3.5-4.5E

I'm missing a few like AF-S 28/1.4E, AF-S 70-200/2.8E, AF-S 500/4.0E, AF-S 600/4.0E and perhaps a few more.
Also missing are the 200 f2G and 300 f2.8G, although not badged as E lenses.
 
Thom Hogan rated Nikkors on criterion of peformance on the D800/D810, and now the D850 raises the bar a few notches for optical performance. But technique is no less important with these HR sensors
http://www.dslrbodies.com/lenses/lens-articles/choosing-lenses/rationalizing-lenses.html

Somewhat surprisingly, the D850 + 24-120 f4G is listed as a kit by some retailers in europe
eg https://www.fotoschweizer.de/kameras/digitale-reflexkameras/728/nikon-d850-kit-af-s-24-120-mm-1-4g-ed-vr
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on August 27, 2017, 21:32:53
Thom Hogan rated Nikkors on criterion of peformance on the D800/D810, and now the D850 raises the bar a few notches for optical performance. But technique is no less important with these HR sensors

High resolution media doesn't turn a good lens into a Coke bottle bottom. If the lens was satisfactory for a D800 and a D810 it will be for a D850.

For best resolution one needs high contrast and the image projected should be 200% that of the sensor or film. If at all possible the projected image should be at least 150% of the sensor or film. If the projected image isn't sharper than the capture media then the potential of that media will not be realized. I edited this paragraph. I hope it says what I intended when I first wrote it.

With higher resolution media, better lenses, better technique, better light, better subject detail, etc. will allow greater cropping or larger printing or both.

We all probably pixel peep but there is more to life than this. There are reasons good, practical and not so practical for pixel peeping.

I'm glad to see standards rise. I'm not glad to be so poor. :(

Dave Hartman

For a sharp image lighting that reveals texture is extremely important. I remember photographs of bird shot under flat, overcast skies with the AF-S 200-500mm f/5.6E ED VR and concern regarding lens sharpness. If everything else was perfect the light defeated any impression of sharpness.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on August 27, 2017, 21:37:38
With higher resolution media, better lenses, better technique, better light, better subject detail, etc. will allow greater cropping or larger printing or both.
From what we are hearing, D850 has two of those things - higher resolution media, and better light (or at least ability to work effectively in worse light). Technique and subject matter can be worked on.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on August 27, 2017, 21:41:42
From what we are hearing, D850 has two of those things - higher resolution media, and better light (or at least ability to work effectively in worse light). Technique and subject matter can be worked on.

New lenses can also be bought and Nikon wants us to buy them. I do too... :)

Dave

ďGive me your tired, your poor, your huddled lenses yearning to breathe free.Ē
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: armando_m on August 28, 2017, 03:28:53
Just noticed the AE-L AF-L is missing ...

after some searching and finding out the D5 is also missing this button I went to the D5 manual to read how they do it ... it appears the subselector is used for AE-L
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ann on August 28, 2017, 04:47:34
On the D5 you can program the various Function and several other buttons to do different tasks (including AE-L) and I am sure that you will be able to do the same thing on the D850 too.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on August 28, 2017, 07:56:43
Another interesting snippet from the online brochure linked earlier (bottom page 32):

"To ensure durability, the D850ís shutter has been tested for 200,000
cycles while actually loaded in the camera. Itís also designed to
minimize the mechanical vibration that causes image blur. The D850
is the first Nikon D-SLR to adopt a shutter counter-balancer in its
shutter drive, which travels upward during each shutter release to
counteract the vibration caused by the front curtainís downward
motion
."

Just out of technical curiosity it would be interesting to see how this is implemented, and how accurate this counter-balancer counteracts the change of momentum created by the accelerating first curtain. If done exactly right, there is effectively no force exerted to the rest of the camera, and no need for an electronic first curtain in order to minimise vibrations.

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on August 28, 2017, 10:25:22
Synopsis by Steve Parry on potential of the D850 for nature photography

https://backcountrygallery.com/nikon-d850-thoughts-impressions-specifications-review/#comment-5480
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 28, 2017, 12:18:44
Synopsis by Steve Parry on potential of the D850 for nature photography

https://backcountrygallery.com/nikon-d850-thoughts-impressions-specifications-review/#comment-5480

I see very little about nature photography in that article.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: bobfriedman on August 28, 2017, 12:34:34
i expect that the silent shutter would be quite advantages for wildlife photography.. i have seen wildlife react to shutter actuations.. clearly the quieter the better especially if you are in a blind.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on August 28, 2017, 12:43:34
Another interesting snippet from the online brochure linked earlier (bottom page 32):

"To ensure durability, the D850ís shutter has been tested for 200,000
cycles while actually loaded in the camera. Itís also designed to
minimize the mechanical vibration that causes image blur. The D850
is the first Nikon D-SLR to adopt a shutter counter-balancer in its
shutter drive, which travels upward during each shutter release to
counteract the vibration caused by the front curtainís downward
motion
."

Just out of technical curiosity it would be interesting to see how this is implemented, and how accurate this counter-balancer counteracts the change of momentum created by the accelerating first curtain. If done exactly right, there is effectively no force exerted to the rest of the camera, and no need for an electronic first curtain in order to minimise vibrations.




NPS said: completely new shutter unit. Yes.

Prone to failure? Who knows?
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on August 28, 2017, 12:54:16
Not exactly, the D500 can do 10fps and is about half the price of the D850 + grip + D5 battery and charger required to get to 9fps. The viewfinder magnification of the D500 is 1x vs. 0.75x for the D850. The smaller mirror and shutter of the DX model very likely create less sound and vibration.

Exactly. The D500 makes smaller files at faster pace. It has a unmatched AF point distribution and other features of interest. A D850 and D500 in my bag give two meanings to any prime in my bag. And I always work with two bodies. Only advantages.

The other point is that at same final print size the D850 more than doubles the amount of light collected compared to the D500. So: I can get clean prints from the D500 at ISO 20.000, so I expect to get clean prints of the same site at ISO 40.000 from the D850. Comparing apples to apples means: same print size.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on August 28, 2017, 13:14:03
You are both right, all li-ion batteries label the resting voltage (3.6-3.7V per cell) and not its max voltage when fully charged (4.2V per cell).

The EN-EL18a uses three li-ion cells so the volt range is between 9 and 12.6V.
- 3 x 3.6V = 10.8V on the sticker
- 3 x 4.2V = 12.6V when fully charged
- 3 x ca 3V = 9V when empty

The EN-EL15 uses two li-ion cells so the volt range is between 6 and 8.4V.
- 2 x 3.6V = 7.2V on the sticker
- 2 x 4.2V = 8.4V when fully charged
- 2 x ca 3V = 6V when empty

With 8 AA NiMH batteries, the volt range is between 6.4 and 11.6V
- 8 x 1.2V =  9.6V on the sticker
- 8 x 1.45V = 11.6V when fully charged
- 8 x 0.8V = 6.4V when empty

So the EN-EL18a starts at 12.6V and keeps it well above 9V which is above the 8.4V maximum of the EN-EL15. The AA pack starts in the volt range of the EN-EL18a but midway will drop below 9V into the lower volt range of the EN-EL15, so the camera should still work but the lower voltage isn't enough to drive the higher FPS.

Thank you. Very interesting. Yet I see that Nikon bodies report my Eneloop Pros to be empty much earlier. I never saw them reach 1.2V, so their full capacity is never used up. When do Nikon cameras switch to the internal battery? If this is not documented, I guess I have to measure.

THX also for the one who posted the battery knowledge link!
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on August 28, 2017, 13:15:02
Although there have been problems with the D600/D750 shutters, I don't think the shutter of a Nikon professional camera is likely to be poorly tested.

Of course none of us have any personal experience on the failure rate of this particular shutter but the MTBF should give an idea. 
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on August 28, 2017, 15:57:35
Thanks very much for your valuable advice
So.... To tabulate a partial summary. Confirms [and if needed justifies to fiscal police :-) ] the benefits of owning BOTH the D500 and D850

            D500                                                                                                D850
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 DX Sensor (24◊16) image area: 5568◊3712 = 25mp (max)                   FX BIS sensor (36◊24): 8256◊5504 = 45.4 mp (max)
                                                                                                                         DX mode (24◊16): 5408 ◊ 3600 = 19.4 mp
   ISO 100 to  51200                                                                                                     ISO 64 to 25600
      Clean prints up to ISO 20 000                                                                          Clean prints likely up to ISO 40 000
     ~1.0◊ 98% Viewfinder                                                                                                 ~0.75x 100% Viewfinder
     10fps max writes 200 frames to buffer                                                   9fps max writes 51 frames RAW to buffer but requires MB-D18
                                                                    -----------------------------------
 D5 AF system but lacks 9-Point dynamic-area                                                              Adds d9 area (as in D5)
                                                                                                            smaller d9 coverage area complements Single-Point AF
                                                                                                                                     PinPoint AF in D850
   AF points cover wider area in D500 Viewfinder                             
                                                                                                               D850 has Improved LiveView - Adds Focus-Peaking
                                                                                                                               Focus-Stacking in D850     
                                                                    -----------------------------------
                                                                                                                                  Silent Shutter Mode in D850
  Shutter/mirror more Compact in D500                                                       Counter-Balancer to minimize vibration of D850 shutter
                                                                                                                                   Better Video in D850
                                                                    -----------------------------------
Camera [alone] weighs ~760 g/1 lb 10.9 oz                                                        Camera [alone] weighs ~1005 g/2 lb 3.5 oz
                 Price 1/2 of FX                                                                                cost of MB-D18 +ENEL18b + charger
             Refurbished/Used options                                                                             New only (8 Sep 2017 release)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
kind regards

woody

Not exactly, the D500 can do 10fps and is about half the price of the D850 + grip + D5 battery and charger required to get to 9fps. The viewfinder magnification of the D500 is 1x vs. 0.75x for the D850. The smaller mirror and shutter of the DX model very likely create less sound and vibration.

Exactly. The D500 makes smaller files at faster pace. It has a unmatched AF point distribution and other features of interest. A D850 and D500 in my bag give two meanings to any prime in my bag. And I always work with two bodies. Only advantages.

The other point is that at same final print size the D850 more than doubles the amount of light collected compared to the D500. So: I can get clean prints from the D500 at ISO 20.000, so I expect to get clean prints of the same site at ISO 40.000 from the D850. Comparing apples to apples means: same print size.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Chris Dees on August 28, 2017, 18:00:08
I'm defenately getting a D850 (early next year or so).
I'll keep the D500, it's such a good camera, but it will be my backup body and/or when I need the speed.
The grip, battery and charger will cost an additional Ä1000
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on August 28, 2017, 21:37:42
Comparing apples to apples means: same print size.

What if the apples are different sizes. It happens you know...

---

My opinion is the D500 and D850 are two difference cameras with different uses. Sure there is overlap. If one can only own one then comparing is necessary to make a choice. If a photographer owns both deciding which camera to use for which purpose if not obvious will come quickly with use.

Carrying two camera for personal use is a drag. Carrying two camera for a paid gig is required.

---

In days of film...

Small Apples...

35mm = 8x10 often cropped to about 7x10
6x6 = 8x10 cropped or not, any which way but loose

Medium Apples...

35mm = 11x14 often cropped to about 9 x 14 (largest and preferred size for Tri-X)
6x6 = 11x14 cropped or not (What's this mean? Square 4:3, 3:2 and many others...)

Jumbo apples...

35mm = 16x20 almost never (could be done quite well from Kodachrome II/25).
6x6 = 16x20 cropped or not

---

In comparing body to body, format to format I'm going to agree with Frank on comparing same size prints. My preferred size in film days was to print on 11x14 paper. 8x10s were usually test prints. That's printing for myself. I printed untold quantities of 8x10 B&W for publication, mostly PR. 

---

I don't usually crop to standard print sizes. I crop for the best appearance of the subject.

Dave Hartman who's hair needs to be cropped but won't

4x5? About the same as 6x6 but larger prints were an option.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Les Olson on August 29, 2017, 10:53:28
So: I can get clean prints from the D500 at ISO 20.000, so I expect to get clean prints of the same site at ISO 40.000 from the D850. Comparing apples to apples means: same print size.

That depends what the final print size is.  The D850 prints 27 x 18 at 300 dpi.  The D500 cannot print larger than 18 x 12 at 300 dpi.  So at 27 x 18 you get the expected benefit from the D850 because the D500 has to use (roughly) half the dpi so noise is more apparent.  To print a D850 file at 18 x 12 you can increase output resolution and down-sample or just down-sample, and how much difference there is at 18 x 12 will depend on the details of how you do it.  But for an 8 x 10 print at 300 dpi you only need 7.2MP, and you can't squash either 20MP or 45MP into 8 x 10 by increasing print resolution.  The degree of down-sampling is greater for the D850 the noise will be effectively masked in both cases and you may not see much benefit.   
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on August 29, 2017, 12:23:03
I thought most inkjet printers wanted 240 dpi while some art books need 360 or 400 dpi. [My knowledge of inkjet printers is out of date. :)]
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on August 29, 2017, 12:58:30
Output the resolution you need and optimize for the output media. Noone needs the native resolution. Noone pixel peeps on Billboards. I have a 1 Meter Print of a Sports Photo on my wall, heavily cropped from a D70s file to 960*1120 qpixels. If you pixel peep there are some aliasing artifacts. I do not give a ...

Agencies want max resolution. True. It sells.

PS: for trade fair booth I print in 150 or 72 ppi

PPS: more pixels is the weakest argument for me to buy the camera. If I use the D600 and lose shots that I would have easily nailed with the D850 I think: pity. So I want her on day one!
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Les Olson on August 29, 2017, 13:57:36
Epson's higher level inkjet printer heads have 360 ink nozzles per inch and Canon printers 300.  So their native resolutions are 360 and 300 dpi.  A printer with fewer nozzles per inch would have a lower native resolution.  Printers quote much higher resolutions because the ink droplets are much smaller, but you can't actually have that once the drops go splat on the paper.  If you set a lower resolution than 360/300, the density of ink nozzles doesn't change, the driver performs an interpolation so some adjacent nozzles do the same thing, which is usually not as good as the alternative, which is to get Lightroom or whatever to up or down-sample the image file so you can print at the native printer resolution at the size you want.  There are several different algorithms to do that and exactly what you get depends which you choose.  Down-sampling will always reduce noise, however.

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on August 29, 2017, 14:19:59
Here is some information about the topic regarding the Epson 3800:

https://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/faq.html#native_res

If I printed on glossy paper (I normally use Premium Luster and print using Epson 3880) I would probably use Finest detail for small prints and set the print resolution to 720. For practical printing times and reducing unnecessary extra processing I've settled on 360ppi as the resolution I use in Lightroom's Print tab.

When I had a printer which was optimized for glossy printing, the R1800, I could see that the premium glossy paper can hold very fine detail which is great for small prints but the K3 series inks do not seem well suited for glossy printing in color (due to metamerism). For black and white on glossy paper I might try Finest detail and set the resolution to 720ppi.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on August 29, 2017, 18:23:29
Thom Hogan's views of the D850 vs D500, and updated lists of top lenses

http://www.dslrbodies.com/cameras/the-d850-blog/
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on August 31, 2017, 15:30:58
I am counting the days! Today I did an event job. The D500 nailed the most difficult AF situations, impossible to do by hand, hectic children in a crowd, only split seconds in the open, the D600 wrecked super easy situations like slowly moving children in front of a crowd backdrop. The photos that came out just right are superb, but for super shallow DOF 1.4/105E I need the fifth generation AF to match the blade of sharpness that is but so thin. The D600 is clearly not made fir the task.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on September 01, 2017, 08:33:10
Fairly comprehensive review of the D850 with respect to Wildlife Photography by Richard Peters
https://www.richardpeters.co.uk/nikon-d850-review-the-best-wildlife-photography-camera-ever-made/

NR just posted on D850 Autofocus including short videos:

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/09/01/nikon-d850-camera-autofocus-af-coverage.aspx/#more-115697

More Comparisons - high ISO performance in D800E and D850
https://nikonrumors.com/2017/08/31/nikon-d850-vs-d800e-high-iso-comparison.aspx/#more-115752

More Coverage
https://nikonrumors.com/2017/08/30/nikon-d850-additional-coverage.aspx/
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 02, 2017, 07:49:03
...so now everyone knows I haven't touched a modern inkjet printer or even read a review in over a decade.  ::)
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 03, 2017, 14:09:03
Suffering through last week with thousands of pictures taken on 4 major events I have an intuition that the 1.4/58G will shine on the D850. I feel the lens by far outperforms the 24MP of my D600 and even outperforms the pixel density of the D500. I am really looking forward to the NeoNoct / D850 combination. The Noct is already great on the D600, but...

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: longzoom on September 05, 2017, 19:35:18
Thom Hogan's views of the D850 vs D500, and updated lists of top lenses

http://www.dslrbodies.com/cameras/th(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4442/36636890370_9604d3b233_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XPtD6C)2017-09-04 002-1 (https://flic.kr/p/XPtD6C) by longzoom (https://www.flickr.com/photos/longzoom/), on Flickre-d850-blog/
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4395/36636884910_d5d17e8a87_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XPtBtu)2017-09-04 002-1-2 (https://flic.kr/p/XPtBtu) by longzoo[url=https://flic.kr/p/XPtAtJ](https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4419/36636881560_e03e88086b_b.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/longzoom/)2017-09-04 002-1-3 (https://flic.kr/p/XPtAtJ) by longzoom (https://www.flickr.com/photos/longzoom/), on Flickrm[/url], on Flickr. Clearly technical image, at 400mm, 2 crops - to 1000mm, and to 2000mm. LR used to cropping and converting NEF to JPG ONLY, no sharpening nor any other functions were involved, off camera NEF converted to JPG (so forgive me some darkening and contrast).  So this 80-400G lens is exceptional, especially at its long end, and will cover evenly 60-70 MP future sensor. Any person, who is "recommended" or not, should perform FT as it MUST BE, and, finally, understand his/her responsibility, in the front of Nikon and its loyal customers. My copy of this lens was not assembled for me, but regular copy from E-Bay, nothing more.  THX!   LZ
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: longzoom on September 06, 2017, 03:47:09
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4366/36866708366_c490f4f0e6_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YaMvYS)2017-09-03 010-1 (https://flic.kr/p/YaMvYS) by longzoom (https://www.flickr.com/photos/longzoom/), on Flickr.   Iron, light. At 400mm, f6.7, handheld, minimal distance (almost). This pic is a huge crop, just let everyone see detailing and sharpness.  THX!   LZ
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews : Manual for download
Post by: paul_k on September 06, 2017, 13:54:55
Sorry in case this has already been mentioned

The official manual is available for download, together with a Menu Guide, and a Snapbridge Connection Guide

http://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/products/359/D850.html

as well as an updated (as in fit for D850 NEF's) version of NX D

http://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/download/sw/101.html

Possibly can help answer some questions
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews : Manual for download
Post by: chambeshi on September 06, 2017, 16:45:55
Thank You!

Sorry in case this has already been mentioned

The official manual is available for download, together with a Menu Guide, and a Snapbridge Connection Guide

http://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/products/359/D850.html

as well as an updated (as in fit for D850 NEF's) version of NX D

http://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/download/sw/101.html

Possibly can help answer some questions
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ann on September 06, 2017, 17:15:26
Adobe have just posted an Update for ACR. It has support for the D850 and three new Nikon lenses.

You can open NEFs either through Bridge or directly into Photoshop.

There is no Update at this time for Lightroom, so you will either need to use ACR or Adobe DNG Converter instead.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on September 06, 2017, 18:05:39
This review of the D850 was published earlier today https://www.ephotozine.com/article/nikon-d850-expert-review-31314
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 06, 2017, 21:27:20
Adobe have just posted an Update for ACR. It has support for the D850 and three new Nikon lenses.

Which lenses???
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: longzoom on September 06, 2017, 21:37:29
Frank, what was a festival of happiness you've posted a lot of beautiful pics about, on Flickr?  THX!   LZ
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 06, 2017, 21:49:07
This review of the D850 was published earlier today https://www.ephotozine.com/article/nikon-d850-expert-review-31314

I read through the article although I expect mine tomorrow. I feel, even ISO 100.000 is usable if necessary, color fidelity lacks starting from 51.000
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on September 06, 2017, 21:50:53
Which lenses???

Four of them:

AF-P DX NIKKOR 10-20mm f/4.5-5.6G VR
Nikon AF-P NIKKOR 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6E ED VR

Nikon AF-S Fisheye NIKKOR 8-15mm f/3.5-4.5E ED
Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 28mm f/1.4E ED
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 06, 2017, 21:55:06
Frank, what was a festival of happiness you've posted a lot of beautiful pics about, on Flickr?  THX!   LZ

The feast was carnival in Bonn

Most of them were taken with my D600 and the 1.4/105E ... so MY happiness was in owning and shooting this amazing lens, one of the best I ever shot, possibly the best, apart from the Schneider Digitar for table tops on my sinar p2... BUT: I wish I already had had the D850, the D600 AF is too slow for excited moving people a f/1.4 and 105mm ...

The second body was my D500 with the 1.4/24G. Next to no misses with this combo. The AF is amazingly fast, predictable and precise.

Best viewed chronologically: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ngudu/albums/72157677313649654
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 06, 2017, 21:57:03
Nikon AF-S Fisheye NIKKOR 8-15mm f/3.5-4.5E ED

Thank you!. So builtin corrections for my fish??? Good.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on September 06, 2017, 22:01:57
Thank you!. So builtin corrections for my fish??? Good.

Yes, zoomfish and 28E corrections work. The default zoomfish distortion and vignetting corrections make little sense at 8mm however.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: armando_m on September 07, 2017, 05:08:51
ACR and CNXD have been updated for the D850

I've been playing with some of the sample files from http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/nikon_d850_photos (http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/nikon_d850_photos)

It is interesting to play with an ISO 25600 file, but I struggle to find a balance between sharpness and noise reduction, I guess it depend on the final size that will be used
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ann on September 07, 2017, 05:52:07
Reducing Luminance Noise does reduce image detail ó it turns details like fur and feathers mushy.

My personal choice, when dealing with high ISO images, is to live with the Luminance Noise (reducing it by the minimal possible amount or not reduceing it at all) but to reduce Colour Noise and use the Colour Smoother slider too.

Shooting at these very high ISO settings is a more journalistic approach to photography and I am loving the new freedom that high ISO gives me to shoot at high shutter speeds and in near darkness.

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 07, 2017, 14:28:53
Reducing Luminance Noise does reduce image detail ó it turns details like fur and feathers mushy.

My personal choice, when dealing with high ISO images, is to live with the Luminance Noise (reducing it by the minimal possible amount or not reduceing it at all) but to reduce Colour Noise and use the Colour Smoother slider too.

Shooting at these very high ISO settings is a more journalistic approach to photography and I am loving the new freedom that high ISO gives me to shoot at high shutter speeds and in near darkness.

I feel similar with the D500 files and turn off NR in NX-D. Only in rare cases I use "reduce color noise".

My D850 just arrived. I will use her to shoot some horses this afternoon.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on September 07, 2017, 16:19:02
An unexpected phone call from the local brick and mortar store, a shiny gold-coloured box was waiting for me. So it is real and here... 
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 07, 2017, 16:28:00
An unexpected phone call from the local brick and mortar store, a shiny gold-coloured box was waiting for me. So it is real and here... 

Same here, only that I expected it to happen ;-)

Off in the country, taking photos!!!
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: marco on September 07, 2017, 18:52:36
Curious to know how the camera is Frank! i have a copy waiting for me that i can pick up tomorrow.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 07, 2017, 19:45:37
Curious to know how the camera is Frank! i have a copy waiting for me that i can pick up tomorrow.

First impression: Very much like the D500, but full frame, so basically what I wanted as perfect companion to the D500. After some hours I would say that the color fidelity seems even better than the wonderful color fidelity of the D500 and the camera behavior is very much like the D5: you point the 1.4/105 into a dark hole where you can barely see the outline of a horse and the result is a horse picture with all details perfectly focussed on the eye (if you choose "eye detection"). What I mean with D5 like behavior is that the scene on the display by far ourperforms my visual power.

File size is large: NEFs between 47 and 67MB per click (lossless compressed), JPEGs between 18 and 33MB, a developed NEF tuns into a 250 to 300MB 16-Bit-TIFF.

The horse is ISO 5600, the other files are ISO100 and 110. These five feature the fine tonality I love from my D600 plus a flood of details that makes the software and hardware take their time. I can see every musle and scar on the man's arm, I can see all the traces that water drops left on the steel of the caroussel.

PS: My first film format digital, the D3 arrived in 2008, the D600 in 2013, the D850 replaces both of them. It can do what they can do plus more abd I got the powerworkhorse D500 as a second body. Ideal!

PPS: Now I know what all these HighRes lenses are really made for and why I leared and keep learning proper technique.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on September 07, 2017, 20:11:00
Compared to my 5-year old D800e it is the autofocus accuracy that is immediately evident. E.g. the D800e struggles with the 28/1.4E full open, but D850 focus seems always spot-on with this lens (and no calibration needed).
As Frank already mentions, a lot is D500-like but a little better. Grip, AF, AWB, exposure, colour rendition in both Capture NX and ACR and high ISO performance all a significant step beyond my D800e. Maybe the time has come to convert the D800e for IR...
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: arthurking83 on September 07, 2017, 22:48:08
Compared to my 5-year old D800e it is the autofocus accuracy that is immediately evident. E.g. the D800e struggles with the 28/1.4E full open, but D850 focus seems always spot-on with this lens (and no calibration needed).
As Frank already mentions, a lot is D500-like but a little better. Grip, AF, AWB, exposure, colour rendition in both Capture NX and ACR and high ISO performance all a significant step beyond my D800e. Maybe the time has come to convert the D800e for IR...

Thanks Eddie. What about viewfinder upgrade? It's is a big difference, a minor difference .. no difference at all. This is one key area I'm interested in(over the D800E). How would you rate the vf differences between the two.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 07, 2017, 23:02:57
Thanks Eddie. What about viewfinder upgrade? It's is a big difference, a minor difference .. no difference at all. This is one key area I'm interested in(over the D800E). How would you rate the vf differences between the two.

Type B BriteView Clear Matte Mark VIII with AF Area Brackets in the D850, D800, 800e, D610, D600, Df etc. kind of okayish for manual focus

Type B BriteView Clear Matte Mark III screen with AF area brackets in the D750, do not know good enough

Type B BriteView Clear Matte Mark II screen with AF area brackets in the D500 and F6 and D7200/7500, much better in my opinion for manual focus. Coarser, much more "snap" when hitting focus.

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on September 07, 2017, 23:24:25
Thanks Eddie. What about viewfinder upgrade? It's is a big difference, a minor difference .. no difference at all. This is one key area I'm interested in(over the D800E). How would you rate the vf differences between the two.

Arthur, there is a difference. The combination of higher magnification and a little more contrast makes manual focus imho easier and more accurate on the D850 (compared to the D800E). Also, the selectivity of the focus dot is much better (as was promised in the D850 brochure).
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on September 08, 2017, 13:45:43
Has anyone had a chance to test the focus shift feature?

I read a user who received their D850 report (on the dpreview forum) that the minimum step size is 0.33mm with 105 VR (instead of 3.3mm on a 100mm lens as reported in the imaging resource interview). This is a good thing! 3.3mm is really too long for close-ups and especially macro.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on September 08, 2017, 18:43:05
Has anyone had a chance to test the focus shift feature?

I read a user who received their D850 report (on the dpreview forum) that the minimum step size is 0.33mm with 105 VR (instead of 3.3mm on a 100mm lens as reported in the imaging resource interview). This is a good thing! 3.3mm is really too long for close-ups and especially macro.

I got approximately 2 / 2.5 mm shift on a ruler at 45 degrees between first and last shot in a 10 shot sequence with minimum step size, with the 105VR Micro at close range. Per step indeed much closer than 3.3mm.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on September 08, 2017, 21:57:22
Although the brochure picture does not show the front view, it appears the mirror box is surrounded by metal also on the front side in the D850 instead of composite. There is a set of teardown pics on NR.

So they went back.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 08, 2017, 22:35:12
Yes in deed unless Nikon Rumors painted some parts with aluminum paint. :)

I hope they toughened up the whole body casting to make problems found in the base of the D800/e where it cracked a bit too easily. I'm not on board the lighter is better craze quite as much as many others. I'm a "Form Follows Function" type. The object needs to full fill it's purpose first, it needs to be durable and then it also needs to look good.

Dave

(https://nikonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Nikon-D850-DSLR-camera-teardown-18.jpg)
Nikon Rumors

Just in case this hasn't been posted before...

English Nikon D850 manuals for the Americas, Asia/Africa and Europe (http://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/products/359/D850.html)

Please check Nikon in your region for other languages.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on September 08, 2017, 22:44:14
Well, the brochure wording also includes "the inside body structure, are made of robust magnesium alloy" which does imply a different construction from that of the D810.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 08, 2017, 22:46:47
Well, the brochure wording also includes "the inside body structure, are made of robust magnesium alloy" which does imply a different construction from that of the D810.

I missed that when I scanned the brochure.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Akira on September 08, 2017, 22:53:41
The metal construction may contribute to the better heat dissipation.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: longzoom on September 09, 2017, 00:07:21
Not much, in this case, Akira. It is ease technologically, but more sensible  to shake and knock from the side, less so from the front. But what is really nice, the new shutter unit. Very smart shocks absorptions finally included, so, the biggest Nikon's problem with stable shutter inconsistency of 1/90 - 1/180 is , finally, addressed. At least I believe it now, so painful was it for half of the century.  Yeah, very smart shutter, almost equal to the one of D5.  Let me be sure its DR is, at least, equal to the D810 one, and I will take a very close look at it.  LZ   
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on September 09, 2017, 00:20:26
I got approximately 2 / 2.5 mm shift on a ruler at 45 degrees between first and last shot in a 10 shot sequence with minimum step size, with the 105VR Micro at close range. Per step indeed much closer than 3.3mm.

The first and the tenth shot in the ten-shot stacking sequence with smallest step size; the difference thus covers 9 steps. The (metric!) ruler is approx. 45 degrees to the lens axis.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 09, 2017, 09:32:10
I will open a new thread and post RAWs for your examination. I took shots of a running horse in full steam to show impressive AF performance even at f/1.4. pity I have so much work waiting to be done that I cannot give you more. So bare with me. The most important stuff I already wrote in #124: the Color rendition an differentiation of tones. Unbelievable. Now I can add that the AF is even better than the AF of the D500 and that silent shooting is useful only on more or less static subjects, because it cannot even follow the slowest movement of a horse. Children's movement? Unthinkable. In a wedding ceremony with f/4 or f/5.6 and sitting or standing or kneeling people. F/1.4  with a blade of 2mm sharpness? No way.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Michael Erlewine on September 09, 2017, 09:49:05
Nikon Rumors as a VERY instructive and totally illustrated teardown and look inside the D850. Toshiba manufactured the sensor, for example.

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/09/08/nikon-d850-dslr-camera-teardown-more-durable-design-significant-improvements-in-many-areas.aspx/#more-115955
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on September 09, 2017, 10:21:14
Toshiba manufactured the sensor, for example.

With Toshiba's sensor business bought by Sony, Sony can claim there is a Sony sensor inside...  ;D

A quick scan with up to now 9 of my AF-S Nikkors, I haven't found one yet with which AF calibration is needed. Good, I hate to do AF calibration  >:(
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on September 09, 2017, 10:32:39
They say the CPUs are made by Toshiba but I can't find anything about the sensor. Not that it matters.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on September 09, 2017, 10:55:29
All the more reassuring to read this dissection of a D850. One minor factor is "magnesium is not always perfect, it is more prone to salt water and shock." Besides the slow performance of the AF in Silent-Mode, there seems little to find fault in this new Nikon!


Nikon Rumors as a VERY instructive and totally illustrated teardown and look inside the D850. Toshiba manufactured the sensor, for example.

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/09/08/nikon-d850-dslr-camera-teardown-more-durable-design-significant-improvements-in-many-areas.aspx/#more-115955
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on September 09, 2017, 11:14:47
Well, there is the matter of wifi being locked down under Snapbridge still. I would like to have proper size jpgs automatically transferred to my iPad for display during studio shoots so that I can show the subjects where we are going and we can better interact. The small camera display can give a misleading idea.

I don't want a large 1000Ä WT-7 with usb cable to be able to do that nor any cables dangling from the camera. Where there is a cable, someone someday will pull from it, causing potentially expensive damage. The tiny WT-6 for the D5 has the right idea - so why can one not plug that into the D850? Yes, I understand that the D5 has the communication electronics to support the WT-6 inside whereas the D850 does not but why not? This should work the same way in every camera. And not the Snapbridge way. Full control, fast transfer, no glitches.

I am happy to hear that people are finding the D850 AF to work well. My experience with the D5 AF is that it's fantastic but I did have to use fine tuning (a comparatively painless process on that camera).
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on September 09, 2017, 11:38:16
New camera, new l-plate; the one-piece RRS design that I have for the D700 and the D800E is replaced by a two-piece design, not my piece of cake. Bummer.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Akira on September 09, 2017, 12:40:23
For the wifi connection, Toshiba's new FlashAir SD card could be a better option.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 09, 2017, 12:56:43
An SD WiFi card in the camera can transmit to a device in the pocket for much greater range. I can't think of the name of the earlier WiFi card or the repeater thing. I'm going to eat my chips and queso blanco and be off to bed.

Dave
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: MFloyd on September 09, 2017, 13:06:52
All the more reassuring to read this dissection of a D850. One minor factor is "magnesium is not always perfect, it is more prone to salt water and shock." ...

We should more talk about "magnesium alloy".  The oxydation characteristics of magnesium (alloy) are very well known.  Magnesium parts on my bikes / cars are covered with a thick layer of paint, and are due for frequent inspection; chipped paint, exposing bare magnesium, makes that the magnesium turns into white powder; so, one could imagine, what this could do to the structural integrity of a wheel, or frame ....
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on September 09, 2017, 13:45:49
We should more talk about "magnesium alloy".  The oxydation characteristics of magnesium (alloy) are very well know.  Magnesium parts on my bikes / cars are covered with a thick layer of paint, and are due for frequent inspection; chipped paint, exposing bare magnesium, makes that the magnesium turns into white powder; so, one could imagine, what this could do to the structural integrity of a wheel, or frame ....

It would be unlikely for the interior of a D850 to experience corrosion unless it got wet - really very wet. This would be a disaster for any DSLR. There has been NG discussion beginning of this year about how metal vs polycarbonate lenses survive impacts and other abuse:
http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php/topic,5262.0.html

this article was cited wrt plastic lenses : https://wordpress.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/12/assumptions-expectations-and-plastic-mounts/
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Akira on September 09, 2017, 13:52:01
An SD WiFi card in the camera can transmit to a device in the pocket for much greater range. I can't think of the name of the earlier WiFi card or the repeater thing. I'm going to eat my chips and queso blanco and be off to bed.

Dave

Eye-Fi is now defunct, but the new FlashAir is compatible with Eye-Fi.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on September 09, 2017, 13:57:14
If you expose the interior to water I'm sure the electronics will be fried before the body shows signs of corrosion.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 09, 2017, 14:23:13
My D500 shows significant wear on the roof after only one year of usage. Looks like a F5 coming back from war...
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on September 09, 2017, 14:46:58
I've shot half a million frames on digital cameras over the years and I don't think any of them got a visible mark on them from use. Sometimes the shooting happens in intense circumstances. Not war, but events ;) Getting sticky on the outside from sweat is the worst that has happened.

So if I get this wifi SD card, what kind of software do I use to download images and control the camera from e.g. ipad? Would the images be stored also on that card, or in the XQD card? What kind of transfer speeds would be realistically expected? Thanks.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 09, 2017, 15:27:23
Ilkka. None of my other cameras showed this kind of wear, except maybe for the FM2, which I used in rough circumstances esp outdoors and I had her from 1988 til 2004. I guess there is something wrong with the coloring on mine
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: BjÝrn RÝrslett on September 09, 2017, 15:53:16
Most if not all my cameras have this kind of wear, often even more pronounced. Nothing to bother about in my opinion.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on September 09, 2017, 16:16:32
I guess there is something wrong with the coloring on mine

Are you using the same bag with the D500 as with your other cameras? There can be differences in how rough the bag padding material is on the surface.

Rough ones tend to be safe in that the gear rarely drops out by accident, but they can cause some surface wear.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 09, 2017, 16:53:57
Are you using the same bag with the D500 as with your other cameras? There can be differences in how rough the bag padding material is on the surface.
Rough ones tend to be safe in that the gear rarely drops out by accident, but they can cause some surface wear.

I bought the ThinkTank Stret Walker Hard Drive together with the D500 (~52.000 clicks), yet the D600 has been in there all the time and used quite as often. The D600 (+79.000 Clicks) does not show comparable wear and I use her since 2013. The D3 (~126.00 clicks) does not show this kind of wear and I use her since 2008.

It can be that the Camera strap has an influece though: The D500 is the only one I use on a quick acces strap by Optech/USA, which means the roof points to my body. All the others worn on a normal strap, sometimes three cameras at a time, meaning the roof points upwards
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: armando_m on September 09, 2017, 17:50:19
It can be that the Camera strap has an influece though: The D500 is the only one I use on a quick acces strap by Optech/USA, which means the roof points to my body. All the others worn on a normal strap, sometimes three cameras at a time, meaning the roof points upwards

When I saw the image seem to me the camera is being rubbed on something while transported, and with your descriptions it seems to be the case
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on September 09, 2017, 17:59:40
These look to be thorough Reviews based a few days intensive shooting - especially on the Sensor performance  -Part 2

https://gwegner.de/review/nikon-d850-review-teil-1/

https://gwegner.de/review/nikon-d850-praxis-test-und-review-teil-2-bildqualitaet-vergleich-mit-d750/

Google Translate works fine
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 09, 2017, 19:09:58
Nikon has been using magnesium alloy in cameras for years. The Nikon F5 use it. It's a proven technology. 
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 09, 2017, 19:40:12
These look to be thorough Reviews based a few days intensive shooting - especially on the Sensor performance  -Part 2
https://gwegner.de/review/nikon-d850-review-teil-1/
https://gwegner.de/review/nikon-d850-praxis-test-und-review-teil-2-bildqualitaet-vergleich-mit-d750/
Google Translate works fine

I know the reviews of this guy, I like to read them, because they are well written, but in my eyes they are more PR work than actual reviews featuring the necesary distance like we know them from BjÝrn RÝrslett
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on September 09, 2017, 23:14:19
A quick scan with up to now 9 of my AF-S Nikkors, I haven't found one yet with which AF calibration is needed. Good, I hate to do AF calibration  >:(

Well, of course too good to be true and in the meantime I found a few Nikkors that really need fine tuning. The built-in AF tuning procedure does not always give proper results, so each lens has to be checked and rechecked carefully for truly accurate focus worthy the high-res sensor. I know, in return for this one-time hassle and frustration we get that gorgeous, big OVF that is even beter in this iteration.

Also, a conclusion of today is that despite being more selective, the AF "green dot" is still not accurate enough for truly precise MF. Live view or a golden eye still needed for that.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Airy on September 10, 2017, 08:52:09
Quote from: Eddie Draaisma
Also, a conclusion of today is that despite being more selective, the AF "green dot" is still not accurate enough for truly precise MF. Live view or a golden eye still needed for that.
... so I'll pass on the D850, as tempting as it is (no doubt a significant upgrade from my D800). Accurate MF has been of growing importance to me in the past few years, and the Df remains my camera of choice.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 10, 2017, 09:56:19
... so I'll pass on the D850, as tempting as it is (no doubt a significant upgrade from my D800). Accurate MF has been of growing importance to me in the past few years, and the Df remains my camera of choice.

I am already looking for a replacement focussing screen
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on September 10, 2017, 12:53:10
... so I'll pass on the D850, as tempting as it is (no doubt a significant upgrade from my D800). Accurate MF has been of growing importance to me in the past few years, and the Df remains my camera of choice.

It is a significant upgrade to the D800/D800E, no doubt about that. I do not have experience with the Df, so cannot compare MF capabilities between the two. I don't have a golden eye either, but on the D850 I can focus the MF lenses with reasonable accuracy. Better than on the D800E.
The green dot  "follows" AF rather consistently and accurately; one can only wonder if it would make sense to be able to fine tune the dot for MF lenses...

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: longzoom on September 10, 2017, 15:10:24
Thanks God, there is no extra room for flash. So using the  shift lenses will be much more convenient! So far, step-by-step, this one looks very good. DR, let me be sure...  LZ
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on September 12, 2017, 20:01:43
Yet another review but a report of initial field tests - link to full Report [I value this guy's tests of exotic telephotos & the D500, D5 etc ]

http://www.naturalart.ca/voice/blog.html#anchor_blog_archive

11 Sept 2017: Nikon D850 - Very First Impressions...

OVERALL ONE-SENTENCE SUMMARY: The Nikon D850 is an EXCEPTIONAL high-resolution, low-ISO DSLR.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on September 12, 2017, 20:44:18
I don't understand why he'd compare D850 image noise with the D5 at pixel level. A D5 pixel is much bigger in area than a D850 pixel and thus if the subject and application are the same, those smaller pixels occupy a smaller area and thus the impact of the noise is less. It makes more sense to compare the image noise at equal presentation size of the whole image.

When comparing D850 with D500 images there is some sense in comparing DX crops and using the actual pixels since the pixel size is approximately equal. And one can evaluate how the quality of cropped images compare. However, in normal applications one would seek to maximize quality and fill the frame with the subject close to the optimal composition and end up using only some of the resolution in a typical application.

Most sites which compare noise do not consider the per pixel noise the primary metric of interest.

I do like Brad Hill's analysis and he gives useful information. However I think the noise analysis is a bit too subjective and not really well defined methodology.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Les Olson on September 12, 2017, 21:23:46
I don't understand why he'd compare D850 image noise with the D5 at pixel level. A D5 pixel is much bigger in area than a D850 pixel and thus if the subject and application are the same, those smaller pixels occupy a smaller area and thus the impact of the noise is less. It makes more sense to compare the image noise at equal presentation size of the whole image.

No, because one would not use a D5 and a D850 for the same subject and application.  There is no reason to have all those pixels if you do nothing with them.  And what else are they for but to print much larger than you can with a D5?   

Measurements of noise are superfluous, let alone massaged measurements.  Read noise and dark noise will be (near enough to) the same in sensors of the same generation, but they will not be zero.  Smaller sensels must have smaller full well capacity and lower maximum signal to noise ratio, and at any given light intensity each D850 sensel captures fewer photons than a D5 sensel.  The photon noise is the square root of the number of photons captured, so below FWC the D850 and the D5 have the same signal to photon noise ratio for each sensel but the absolute signal is lower in the D850, and then the same absolute read and dark noise are added, so the final SNR must be lower for the D850. 

Whether that is photographically important is another question, but answering it needs a photographic argument, not one about noise metrics.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on September 12, 2017, 22:24:33
If the task is not the same any comparison between performances of two products is invalid. You would not compare the fuel costs of driving a car 20km vs. flying an airplane 100km would you, and then complain how the airplane trips cost more in fuel. You'd at least make a fair comparison and divide the costs by the length of the journey. Which is why noise comparisons within the same format are better carried out after resampling to the same pixel count.

Lots of people are going to buy the D850 for other reasons than the high pixel count. It's half the price of the D5 and that may be all they can justify, this is a very good reason to buy it. Some are like myself who will buy it mainly because of the low ISO dynamic range (which is exhibited in images which are not necessarily printed large; all you need is contrasty light in the scene and the need to do local adjustments to display it well), the AF, and the flash control system, and the fact that I need several camera bodies to reach the necessary redundancy in case a piece of equipment fails and the backup should closely mimic the primary in functionality so that the necessary routine exists. But the D5 has a very different performance profile in terms of the ISO range than the D850 which is why the the two cameras would complement each other nicely. The D850's pixel count gives some extra range with the subject which can be useful when working with primes and shooting subjects that can be at different distances in bright light. If you are shooting at high ISO then there is really no extra detail to talk about since to make an acceptable print you'd need to do something to the noise which then cancels what detail you might have had if you had had enough light to give the sensor. So a high ISO comparison really isn't about pixel level noise but noise that is relevant in the final presentation (which is application, not camera determined).

A photographer who uses both D850 & D5 is likely to choose to shoot different subjects with the two cameras but a person reading an evaluation of the D850 is interested in how the same subject would be rendered by the different cameras. If the subjects are different or the magnification is different then there can be no valid comparison since it's all flown to pieces by uncontrolled parameters. If you make an A3 print from the D850 and an A4 print from the D5 then compare noise at the same viewing distance obviously it is a ridiculous comparison since the visual impact of a twice-as-large print is totally different. Normally one scales the viewing distance so that one can appreciate the whole image - which renders any comparison at different scales irrelevant. The maximum print size is not really related to pixel count. You can make practically any size print from any size original. Large prints are typically made because the viewer is some distance away. You set it up so that the image fills much of the visual field of the observer.

However, as I said if the intention is to use the D850 cropped in place of a D500 then a pixel level comparison is valid and relevant. But only because the pixels happen to be close in size.

Quote
below FWC the D850 and the D5 have the same signal to photon noise ratio for each sensel 

That's not correct. Per area, not sensel, the two have approximately the same signal to noise ratio (if we consider only photon shot noise).
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: armando_m on September 12, 2017, 23:22:15
I do not quite agree with the  last review regarding noise

After editing a few D850 files I disagree the D800E will have a similar level of noise than the D850, a D800 iso 12000 is near useless and has ugly colors, and that is not my observation with the D850 files
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Erik Lund on September 13, 2017, 10:17:17
The first and the tenth shot in the ten-shot stacking sequence with smallest step size; the difference thus covers 9 steps. The (metric!) ruler is approx. 45 degrees to the lens axis.

This is not a valid af target at all!

The af target must be parallel to the sensor! Not at 45 deg.

the ruler can be in the back ground off center,,,
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on September 13, 2017, 12:03:37
This is not a valid af target at all!

The af target must be parallel to the sensor! Not at 45 deg.

the ruler can be in the back ground off center,,,

It is not an AF target, it is meant to show the smallest stepsize of the D850 stacking feature when used with the 105VR.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Les Olson on September 13, 2017, 20:09:34

A photographer who uses both D850 & D5 is likely to choose to shoot different subjects with the two cameras but a person reading an evaluation of the D850 is interested in how the same subject would be rendered by the different cameras.

Per area, not sensel, the two have approximately the same signal to noise ratio (if we consider only photon shot noise).

So the person reading the evaluation is not a photographer?  What you seem to be saying is that evaluation is an end in itself, quite apart from how the camera will be used.

Sorry, I was careless about the SNR.  You are quite right.  For the D850 sensel and the D5 pixel to have the same SNR they must capture the same number of photons, meaning that the D850 sensel must be exposed to more light because its area is smaller. But why should we assume that light exposure is equal?  After all, we don't care about the SNR approaching FWC, because it is very high in both cases, and at the opposite end, where the number of captured photons is zero, we can't do anything about the SNR - and it is not dependent on area. In between, why shouldn't we change the exposure to equalise SNR?  Another way to put this is that the smaller your sensels, the more you need to think about ETTR.

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 14, 2017, 05:26:22
Concerning ETTR in practice:

I do not see that over exposure with the D850 (which is still possible, though it should not be) is well contained. There is only a small headroom and then the area posterizes. I still have to check whether this is a problem of NX-D and highlight recovery works better in ACR or PhotoNinja

Also the test says color noise sets in earlier compared to other cameras. Yes, I see that, but I need time before I can put my finger in it.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on September 14, 2017, 15:19:22
So the person reading the evaluation is not a photographer?  What you seem to be saying is that evaluation is an end in itself, quite apart from how the camera will be used.

I'll try to explain it from my applications perspective. I realize that a wildlife photographer would have a different perspective.

I photographed an event in old 14th century castle ruins a few weeks ago. The organizers had had a competition for a light art installation that would be displayed on the castle outer walls and there was various musical performances inside, dancing, costumes, illustration for kids, the opportunity for kids to lay coloured LED lits floating on the water etc. Lots of activity of different kinds and they had a lot of visitors far beyond expectations. The event took place  from 7pm to midnight.

All the material I shot would be resized for printing up to A4 size and uploaded for the organizers. I didn't need the extra pixels from a higher resolution camera for this. However, to choose which camera to use for which task does to some extent depend on how the image quality is dependent on ISO and what the requirements for a particular part of the event are. For the light art show I wanted to include the lights in the hands of the visitors as well as the lit castle but there was a dynamic range problem. The light show included elements of the history of the site and the figures were moving and changing quickly so I ended up shooting at f/2.8, ISO 2000, and a shutter speed around half a second if I recall correctly. I was concerned about the story being blurred, which happened to an extent but not too much, but in reality I got a problem because of the large difference in the brightness of the light art show and the visitors.  The choice between camera would be best made with knowledge of the dynamic range at the ISO I would be using. In this case the D5 has a bit better PDR than the D810 at ISO 2000 (7.9 vs 7.1) but the PDR of the new D850 and the D5 are equal at ISO 2000.  In this case although the D850's pixel level noise at ISO 2000 is no doubt greater than that of the D5, the D850 image resized for the application likely is as good or a bit better than the image from the D5.

Similarly for the indoor part I was using ISOs from 2000 to 102400 and to make the right choice of camera the pixel level quality was not a criteria. There is no way to make details at individual pixel level from D810 images at (say) ISO 25600.  I still want to have a camera that excels in low ISO dynamic range as sometimes events occur in bright sunlight and I may want the lower ISO of 64 to be able to shoot at a wide aperture. If there are two performers on an outdoor stage one is in the front the other in the back, there can be a large difference in brightness of the two in the final image. To bring them into the same print I may need to do a local adjustment, and for this a camera like the D810 (or D850) excels.

Personal feelings about image quality can always be reported but they tend to be dependent on the observer and even differ from day to day or image to image. Another person using different software or different subject matter could come to different conclusions. I'm not saying measurements should not be validated with real world experience but in the absence of strongly differing real world evidence from multiple accounts I will trust the numbers derived from the raw data first. This is especially because they eliminate the effect of the algorithm used for raw conversion from the evaluation.

In the end, in actual use I pick the equipment to use based on my own experience. However, prior to actually owning and using the camera there is no possibility to have the benefit of that experience. Camera choice has a lot to do with other parameters than sensor image quality but I try not to be burned too badly by not being aware of what I'm getting also in the sensor characteristics. 

 
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 14, 2017, 21:08:52
The D5 is the best high ISO Nikon, the D850 the best low an mid ISO Nikon, so a great combination. The D500 has the best AF point coverage and is great for fast action when edge or corner points are needed and for lenses that perform better in the center than the periphery. So all three cameras have their merit and if one is in the lucky position to have all three in the bag, good for her/him. For me super high ISO performance would be nice to have but does not pay my bills, so the D5 can not be justified economically. The D850 plus D500 is currently the  best combo for my purpose. Shall Nikon make a D5 Sensor in a cheaper and slower housing like a D650 or D780 or Df2 I might go for it though...
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 15, 2017, 03:28:03
The D5 is the best high ISO Nikon, the D850 the best low an mid ISO Nikon, so a great combination. The D500 has the best AF point coverage and is great for fast action when edge or corner points are needed and for lenses that perform better in the center than the periphery. So all three cameras have their merit and if one is in the lucky position to have all three in the bag, good for her/him.

Does Charles answer prayers or only preyers?

Dave (who resents being named after an ungulate).

----------

I'd like to see Nikon drop a D5s image senor in a D850 body. Nikon could call it the D850h.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ethan on September 15, 2017, 09:03:51
Does Charles answer prayers or only preyers?

Dave (who resents being named after an ungulate).

----------

I'd like to see Nikon drop a D5s image senor in a D850 body. Nikon could call it the D850h.

1- Who is Charles?

2- Thank you for the vocabulary lessons. I learned two new words today: Preyers and Ungulate.

About the only two things I learned so far in this thread.

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: elsa hoffmann on September 15, 2017, 12:24:19
1- Who is Charles?

2- Thank you for the vocabulary lessons. I learned two new words today: Preyers and Ungulate.

About the only two things I learned so far in this thread.

tsk tsk.... frustration... what kind I might wonder.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 15, 2017, 13:20:48
1- Who is Charles?

2- Thank you for the vocabulary lessons. I learned two new words today: Preyers and Ungulate.

About the only two things I learned so far in this thread.

Darwin? Preyer as one who preys? I'm confusing myself now. :)
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: golunvolo on September 15, 2017, 17:28:51
And now we are at page 13. I like it
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Jakov Minić on September 15, 2017, 17:37:42
And now we are at page 13. I like it

hahahaha Paco, Paco, Paco...
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: armando_m on September 15, 2017, 17:51:18
hahahaha Paco, Paco, Paco...

++1
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Thomas G on September 15, 2017, 18:59:44
And now we are at page 13. I like it
Did page 13 find you or vice versa?
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: golunvolo on September 15, 2017, 19:38:58
 ;D ;D ;D 8)
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 16, 2017, 00:39:20
Good.

Someone interested in the topic still?

Tonight I experienced in important shots that my eye on the ground glass was reliable, but the green dot was completely off. Even if I positioned it in the eye of the person.

I got really great shots that will pay lots of bills but there is something wrong with the VF and green dot. They have always worked in sync till D850. Strange!

Technical: D850 & 1.4/35mm Ai-S
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 16, 2017, 00:42:51
BTW: I am on page four and that is consistent over all my hardware, browsers and operating systems.

What is wrong with you guys?
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 16, 2017, 00:51:53
BTW: I am on page four and that is consistent over all my hardware, browsers and operating systems.

What is wrong with you guys?

Nay, what's wrong with Frank?! Frank is missing out on pages 5 through 13.

Try a Hard Refresh or some Mexican (https://s14-eu5.ixquick.com/wikioimage/4ebba20b67cb647661e08251b0ca92e1.png).

Dave Hartman (who doesn't like Coke made with high-fructose corn syrup).
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: golunvolo on September 16, 2017, 00:57:18
Im very interested and in page 13th.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Akira on September 16, 2017, 01:50:20
BTW: I am on page four and that is consistent over all my hardware, browsers and operating systems.

What is wrong with you guys?

Frank, your post is on the page 13...on my browser...
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Thomas G on September 16, 2017, 08:25:16
Frank, your post is on the page 13...on my browser...
true for me as well. On every device I use.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 16, 2017, 11:36:45
I display 50 posts per page, so another 8 posts to go before page 5 is due.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 16, 2017, 11:38:29
Back to the topic.

My solution was to put on my reading glasses, zoom in on the live view, focus and shoot fully silent bursts. Great results.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 16, 2017, 12:16:12
Frank is probably using some secret page style.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on September 16, 2017, 12:41:40
Good.

Someone interested in the topic still?

Tonight I experienced in important shots that my eye on the ground glass was reliable, but the green dot was completely off. Even if I positioned it in the eye of the person.

I got really great shots that will pay lots of bills but there is something wrong with the VF and green dot. They have always worked in sync till D850. Strange!

Technical: D850 & 1.4/35mm Ai-S

Strange indeed.

IMHO the "green" dot is more accurate on MF lenses than ever before, given proper lighting conditions (not too dark). I notice a very good sync between OVF and dot.

There is no popup flash anymore obstructing the aperture scale on MF lenses when looking "from above", this may sound as insignificant chatter from another internet nitwit, but imho it makes working with the old MF lenses just more convenient and fun.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 16, 2017, 14:07:13
I will check how the green dot reacts to different AF settings

Currently AF is set to af-s single point sharpness priority and it seems to work. I cannot get focus peaking to work WITFM???
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 16, 2017, 16:08:33
Ok page issue solved.

Go to profile / modify profile / look and layout / display topics per page & display posts per page.

Forum default is 20, mine are set to 50 both, I do not mind scrolling but I hate  loading new pages every few seconds. Must have set that long ago and then forgot about it...
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 16, 2017, 16:13:44
Impressions after 9 days of intense work: great analogue look of the files. Very responsive camera in all aspects. View finder not good for manual focus I certainly need a replacement screen.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: golunvolo on September 16, 2017, 16:15:59
Frank, Im very interested in the silent mode. It will be very useful for live shows. Can you elaborate some about how it works in real life, strength and shortcomings?
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 16, 2017, 17:27:58
I do not see shortcomings yet. Because of the viewfinder problem with my MF lens yesterday I have used it as plan b and it works so well that I might turn into plan a for certain applications.

Live view is very responsible, transparent I would say. Earlier implementations were a tad delayed video show. This is gone. Now I have enabled focus peaking which seems to work pretty well. Yesterday live view silent shooting was the only way to get the pictures I needed, now I found it is a powerful tool. I use mode one which means three frames per second at full quality. Mode two is many more frames per second but only jpeg normal no raw.

You do not get an acoustic feedback though
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: golunvolo on September 17, 2017, 00:13:34
Thanks Frank. I'll have to try myself to see how useful it will be for me but sounds very promising.
  How about shutter lag in silent mode? Timing is crucial for dancers
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 17, 2017, 10:35:14
No lag if focussed. The camera is fast in all modes. Only the life view AF is very very slow.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on September 17, 2017, 16:07:37
After more than a week in use some tidbits:

- Typical file size (for 14-bit lossless compressed raw) varies between 47.1 MB and 74 MB

- All my AF-S Nikkors can do without AF fine-tuning except the 58/1.4G; the value needed (+13) for this lens doesn't inspire confidence  ;).


- The Snapbridge connection (I use it for location data and time syncing only) with my iPhone 6s seems reliable until now (hurray),  hopefully it stays that way after we all upgrade to iOS11 next Tuesday  :).
Be aware that it takes a few seconds (after power-on or sleep) for the connection to establish (set f9 to lcd backlight and info, a simple flick of the power switch to the right will then bring up the info on the monitor, the bluetooth icon can be checked top-left).

- I really like the performance of the new 28E on this body, very very nice. The zoomfish does very nice too.

- The older MF Nikkors I tried until now do well too (e.g. 24/2.8Ais, 35/1.4Ais, 50/1.2Ais, 105/2.5Ai, 180/2.8ED Ais), no reason not to use them on this body  8)
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 17, 2017, 22:52:18
Also the loved 1.8/85G does very well:
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on September 17, 2017, 23:09:42
At dusk - D850 @ 800 ISO  28/1.4E @ F/1.4
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Michael Erlewine on September 19, 2017, 05:28:01
Got a notice today that B&H has shipped my D850. A very long wait for a new camera from when I first ordered the Hasselblad X1D in June (I believe) of 2016. And now for the moment of truth: will I like it?
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 19, 2017, 07:44:27
Michael: we wait in awe. Your case scenario is different from all others I guess and I wish your work will profit from the low ISO performance!
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: schwett on September 20, 2017, 07:13:12
my d850 arrived today. i ordered from b+h perhaps 20 minutes after they opened the orders.

i had a very busy day at the office and just one lens in my bag (105 f/1.4), so my impressions are quite brief. it does feel slightly bigger and heavier. very solid, the grip is very nice, the screen is very nice, and the enlarged finder is beautiful. setup took just a minute or so to match up to my other nikons. i really wish nikon would include GPS.

i took about 45 minutes to shoot on my walk home from the office.

hard to say much about the image quality - it's great, i was shooting handheld without much discipline, the autofocus was dead to nuts accurate with any focus point or subject i selected. some pics follow.

(apologies if these don't belong here, mods, feel free to edit.)

(http://www.431.org/ng/850/0550-oneCali-2048.jpg)

(http://www.431.org/ng/850/0497-califSt-2048.jpg)

(http://www.431.org/ng/850/0455-reflection-2048.jpg)

(http://www.431.org/ng/850/0404-cableCar-2048.jpg)

(http://www.431.org/ng/850/0360-parkingTrees-2048.jpg)

(http://www.431.org/ng/850/0329-ferrari-2048.jpg)

(http://www.431.org/ng/850/0236-aquaHair-2048.jpg)

(http://www.431.org/ng/850/0193-bofa-2048.jpg)

(http://www.431.org/ng/850/0155-hotel-2048.jpg)

(http://www.431.org/ng/850/0121-stRegis-2048.jpg)

(http://www.431.org/ng/850/0094-tree-2048.jpg)

(http://www.431.org/ng/850/0065-345cal-2048.jpg)

(http://www.431.org/ng/850/0049-contraLight-2048.jpg)

(http://www.431.org/ng/850/0007-contraLight-2048.jpg)
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Fons Baerken on September 20, 2017, 07:30:30
Good to see the images, Schwett.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 20, 2017, 07:55:25
Schwett. Great to see your SF pictures. I always loved your work. Hope to see you next time around. My brother will have moved into their house in Fremont by then, so easy pleasy
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 20, 2017, 08:21:15
One downside. She is a reliable workhorse so I get many more keepers although I also get more picky. First event with D850/500 combo. I took the 1.8/85 plus 1.8/20 and interchanged lenses on the fly, so I had 20, 30, 85 and 127mm FOV wise. Great set. Great results
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: BjÝrn RÝrslett on September 20, 2017, 08:34:28
Despite the obvious enlargement and clarity of the D850 view finder, I could not reliably focus a Noct-Nikkor with it under realistic indoors conditions. That was a let-down from my point of view. The Df still is much better with the Noct. Perhaps a split-image screen would do better with the D850?
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on September 20, 2017, 09:15:57
As it turns out, even with a reliable connection between D850 and iPhone, Snapbridge is useless for GPS data. At least if one does not want to have the same location recorded for two hours  :-[

From the D850 Menu Guide, page 179:
"Select Yes to download location data from the smart device and embed them in pictures taken over the next two hours ...". Another proof that wonders never cease to exist  ;D

I wonder how much collective effort would be needed to convince Nikon to make the built-in BT connection to work with BT GPS mice (aka GPS trackers). Pending that, question is if a Foolography Unleashed '09 dongle (with the D800 modification) will fit.

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: BjÝrn RÝrslett on September 20, 2017, 09:34:50
" Pending that, question is if a Foolography Unleashed '09 dongle (with the D800 modification) will fit."

It will.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: BjÝrn RÝrslett on September 20, 2017, 11:25:19
Nikon assigned the task of acquiring the required material for D850 presentation videos and campaign posters to 4 photographers, one of whom is David Yarrow (from Scotland). I was invited to a preview of the upcoming presentation of the very large prints Nikon intend to use for their advertising of the D850. Here is the massive print of a South African lion (taken with the AFS 200/2 David informed me) about to be added to the exhibition.

I have to admit the quality of these photos, technically and otherwise,  were excellent. Apparently the D850 is a camera model to be reckoned with.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 20, 2017, 12:27:26
Despite the obvious enlargement and clarity of the D850 view finder, I could not reliably focus a Noct-Nikkor with it under realistic indoors conditions. That was a let-down from my point of view. The Df still is much better with the Noct. Perhaps a split-image screen would do better with the D850?

Comparably unhappy with the MF Quality as mentioned before I'd like Nikon to offer a replacement for the focussing screen, be it as a paid for service or better as an act of generosity.

The D500 is much better in the MF department!!
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on September 20, 2017, 12:30:07
I wonder if it a question of the focusing screen used, or the optical design of the viewfinder itself that causes this difference?

One possibility which I've been thinking about is that the Df mirror could be designed to reflect more of the light to the viewfinder and less to the AF module whereas to get top AF performance the D850 may divert more of the light hitting the mirror to the AF module instead of the viewfinder. It would be interesting to measure the transmission/reflection coefficients for the main mirrors of the different cameras. Certainly the Multi-CAM 20k AF module covers a larger area of the image so the semitransparent section of the mirror could be larger than with cameras using Multi-CAM 4800.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 20, 2017, 12:35:09
The same 20k AF module sits in the D500 and she has a smaller mirror. But both cameras have roughly the same VF brightness. Only difference I see is that the ground glass in the D500 is coarser and thus MF has much more "snap". No wonder it is the focussing screen of the F6
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on September 20, 2017, 12:38:28
Can the F6 screen be fit into the D850?
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 20, 2017, 12:41:15
I hope so. The question is: will you get the right shim or how long will you need for calibration? Is it better to wait for third party offers?
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on September 20, 2017, 14:09:33
I hope so. The question is: will you get the right shim or how long will you need for calibration? Is it better to wait for third party offers?

I believe focusingscreen.com have offered F6 screens modified to fit newer cameras and I would think they'd offer it for the D850 as well. I have not used their products. I'm wondering which company Tetsuro Goto was referring to when they mentioned that a Taiwanese company makes them.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: BjÝrn RÝrslett on September 20, 2017, 14:28:11
Focusingscreen.com is based in Taiwan.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 20, 2017, 15:55:38
I believe focusingscreen.com have offered F6 screens modified to fit newer cameras and I would think they'd offer it for the D850 as well. I have not used their products. I'm wondering which company Tetsuro Goto was referring to when they mentioned that a Taiwanese company makes them.

I like a coarse full matte to help focussing my AF-S lenses if the AF does not what I want it to do. The 1.4/105 has 2mm of DOF at portrait distance and I cannot focus and reframe
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on September 20, 2017, 20:30:12
Recent Test... video

https://youtu.be/A_OMIRHXynQ
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Michael Erlewine on September 20, 2017, 23:00:27
Itís been since about June of 2016 when I ordered the new Hasselblad X1D and waited. Then I ordered the Fuji GFX... and waited. I sent both of those back for various reasons along with a lot of lenses, etc.

Then I ordered the Nikon D850 and waited just a little.

I received my copy today and have only had a couple of hours of time in on it. There may be some deep-dark flaw, but I have not seen it yet. Some of our techsperts will have to check that out. My initial impressions, so far, are:

(1) The ISO 64 seems to be there.

(2) The extra Mpx are definitely worth it. Very much a difference that counts.

(3) The new LiveView screen is better than the D810 by a lot, but also perhaps a little more difficult to focus, not to see, but to adjust focus.

(4) The sharpness of older lenses like the photo here taken with the Voigtlander 125mm APO-Lanthar push this lens to a higher state of us. The camera makes sharpness... sharper, IMO.

(5) The color on the LiveView screen looks different than the D810, but the end result (color-wise) is excellent. No complaints.

I donít use auto-focus and I still have not got the camera set up properly, but Iím working on it. So my initial impression is that this camera is as good or even better than I had hoped and at a HUGE savings in cost, not to mention that I have so many great lenses in the Nikon F-mount. If I have a single doubt, and I am not done checking this out, the highlights may clip... slightly more easily than the D810, but I will wait for gear guys to test this.

So far, so good.

Photo by the D850 and Voigtlander 125mm APO-Lanthar lens.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Fons Baerken on September 20, 2017, 23:03:34
Wow!
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: armando_m on September 20, 2017, 23:19:51
Michael, I was looking forward to your first image taken with the D850, beautiful !
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Jakov Minić on September 21, 2017, 00:18:44
Michael, you have posted many wonderful images, but this one trumps them all!
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ann on September 21, 2017, 00:47:27
A superb photograph, Michael.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Jacques Pochoy on September 21, 2017, 01:14:25
Re-Wow... :-)
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 21, 2017, 02:23:03
Software/WiFi hiccup
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 21, 2017, 02:25:04
Love the colors! As usual every other aspect is excellent.

Thank you,

Dave Hartman
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on September 21, 2017, 06:03:51
Michael,

Looks spectacular. Hope to see more from you with the camera.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Airy on September 21, 2017, 07:23:42
Michael, Nikon owes your something here. Not only is this a superb picture, but also a big piece of ad (or GAS-triggering artefact).
Since I'm broke, I'm immune, fortunately so to say.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Akira on September 21, 2017, 07:32:53
Michael, my monitor cannot discern the image quality of D850, 810, X1D or GFX50S.  :D  Nevertheless I'm looking forward to your share of the impression of your new toy!
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: schwett on September 21, 2017, 07:48:33
gorgeous shot michael. glad that you're happy so far.

i think you may be right that the highlights can't be recovered quite as deeply. hard to say without technical exploration, which i'm both unsuited to and uninterested in doing. ;)

the silent shutter combined with "touch to focus and shoot" on the live view screen is pretty useful, actually. great for candid shots of kids, seated people, etc, like all the mirrorless folks have been doing for so long!
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Fons Baerken on September 21, 2017, 09:04:35
gorgeous shot michael. glad that you're happy so far.

i think you may be right that the highlights can't be recovered quite as deeply. hard to say without technical exploration, which i'm both unsuited to and uninterested in doing. ;)

the silent shutter combined with "touch to focus and shoot" on the live view screen is pretty useful, actually. great for candid shots of kids, seated people, etc, like all the mirrorless folks have been doing for so long!

Reminds me of the D500, highlights are similarly less recoverable.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 21, 2017, 09:18:51
After two weeks I can say that the ISO64 IQ is superb under controlled lighting, but: I shot a brass band in bright sunlight and I must say that neither the highlights nor the shadows are as recoverable as they are using the D600/610/750 sensor.

My way of using the camera is to expose the way I would expose a good low ISO slide film if I want to use the picture as it is.

 In case I need all the highlights and shadows in a scene with movement I would underexpose for the highlights, use the RAW converter to exploit ISO invariance to make TIFFs for different parts of the picture, delete the EXIF and feed the result to a HDR program. I will do that right now, have lots of proof. And show results of course.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 21, 2017, 09:22:09
Itís been since about June of 2016 when I ordered the new Hasselblad X1D and waited. Then I ordered the Fuji GFX... and waited. I sent both of those back for various reasons along with a lot of lenses, etc.

Then I ordered the Nikon D850 and waited just a little.

I donít use auto-focus and I still have not got the camera set up properly, but Iím working on it. So my initial impression is that this camera is as good or even better than I had hoped and at a HUGE savings in cost, not to mention that I have so many great lenses in
So far, so good.

Photo by the D850 and Voigtlander 125mm APO-Lanthar lens.


You are a genius and I adore your work. Thank you.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ethan on September 21, 2017, 11:13:15
Itís been since about June of 2016 when I ordered the new Hasselblad X1D and waited. Then I ordered the Fuji GFX... and waited. I sent both of those back for various reasons along with a lot of lenses, etc.

Then I ordered the Nikon D850 and waited just a little.

I received my copy today and have only had a couple of hours of time in on it. There may be some deep-dark flaw, but I have not seen it yet. Some of our techsperts will have to check that out. My initial impressions, so far, are:

(1) The ISO 64 seems to be there.

(2) The extra Mpx are definitely worth it. Very much a difference that counts.

(3) The new LiveView screen is better than the D810 by a lot, but also perhaps a little more difficult to focus, not to see, but to adjust focus.

(4) The sharpness of older lenses like the photo here taken with the Voigtlander 125mm APO-Lanthar push this lens to a higher state of us. The camera makes sharpness... sharper, IMO.

(5) The color on the LiveView screen looks different than the D810, but the end result (color-wise) is excellent. No complaints.

I donít use auto-focus and I still have not got the camera set up properly, but Iím working on it. So my initial impression is that this camera is as good or even better than I had hoped and at a HUGE savings in cost, not to mention that I have so many great lenses in the Nikon F-mount. If I have a single doubt, and I am not done checking this out, the highlights may clip... slightly more easily than the D810, but I will wait for gear guys to test this.

So far, so good.

Photo by the D850 and Voigtlander 125mm APO-Lanthar lens.

It is pleasantly surprising that the vintage Voigt 125/2.5 is still strong as ever when used on a high megapixel camera. Unbelievable!

Is the pic from a Jpeg or RAW?

Which software are you using for the D850 NEF processing?
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Bill Mellen on September 21, 2017, 16:47:51
Itís been since about June of 2016 when I ordered the new Hasselblad X1D and waited. Then I ordered the Fuji GFX... and waited. I sent both of those back for various reasons along with a lot of lenses, etc.

Then I ordered the Nikon D850 and waited just a little.

I received my copy today and have only had a couple of hours of time in on it. There may be some deep-dark flaw, but I have not seen it yet. Some of our techsperts will have to check that out. My initial impressions, so far, are:

(1) The ISO 64 seems to be there.

(2) The extra Mpx are definitely worth it. Very much a difference that counts.

(3) The new LiveView screen is better than the D810 by a lot, but also perhaps a little more difficult to focus, not to see, but to adjust focus.

(4) The sharpness of older lenses like the photo here taken with the Voigtlander 125mm APO-Lanthar push this lens to a higher state of us. The camera makes sharpness... sharper, IMO.

(5) The color on the LiveView screen looks different than the D810, but the end result (color-wise) is excellent. No complaints.

I donít use auto-focus and I still have not got the camera set up properly, but Iím working on it. So my initial impression is that this camera is as good or even better than I had hoped and at a HUGE savings in cost, not to mention that I have so many great lenses in the Nikon F-mount. If I have a single doubt, and I am not done checking this out, the highlights may clip... slightly more easily than the D810, but I will wait for gear guys to test this.

So far, so good.

Photo by the D850 and Voigtlander 125mm APO-Lanthar lens.

Fantastic!  I am looking forward to seeing more.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Michael Erlewine on September 21, 2017, 20:29:04
May not interest many. Two shots, one with the D810 and the other with the D850, both photos labelled, with the D850 first.

Each photo is a short stack, 3 shots, each focused on the flower centers.

Shot on the Cambo Actus with the APO El Nikkor 105mm lens

Not much post, aside from making them look OK. Nothing in the color changed.

To me, shows the value of the larger sensor in resolution.

Your thoughts?
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on September 21, 2017, 20:51:11
You had to wait a little longer, but apparently it was worthwhile.

The D850 picture is sharper, especially the left flower, the D810 picture is in some (green) areas visibly more yellow.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 21, 2017, 21:27:48
The Color differentiation is much better than everything I have seen before. Great example. Even the small difference between 810 and 850 clearly shows!

Now I really must take my Sinar out to the Botanical Gardens and see what the Autumnal Light will help me show.Thank you for your motivation.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Akira on September 21, 2017, 23:39:24
Yes, the purple color of the petals seems to be better rendered on D850, which is well discernible even on my uncalibrated monitor...
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Bill Mellen on September 21, 2017, 23:43:18
On my iPad the color and contrast of the second image are better looking to me.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 21, 2017, 23:46:59
One my primary Win7 computer the purples look better (more gradations, less yellow). I don't think any firm conclusions can be made on just two samples. Maybe this is just my expectations.

Dave
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: charlie on September 22, 2017, 06:03:43
The D850 shot definitely looks better but the D810 shot appears to have either soft focus, motion blur, or stacking alignment issues. Yes no?

 
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 22, 2017, 08:34:04
One my primary Win7 computer the purples look better (more gradations, less yellow). I don't think any firm conclusions can be made on just two samples. Maybe this is just my expectations.

Dave

I can say it is my experience over a period of two weeks daily use.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Michael Erlewine on September 22, 2017, 19:23:16
Starting to get more of a handle on the Nikon D850.  I like it! I can see I will learn to even love it.

Turning off all sound in the camera as part of LiveView is way more wonderful than I would have imagined. Silence. Great for stacking photos and progress is as easy as watching the Live View screen visibly changing. I will use it ALL the time.

The tilt-able screen in LiveView is helpful, but would be more helpful if it moved four ways instead of two, but not any real worry.

To me, it looks like Nikon came out of the closet and threw everything they had this baby in an attempt to reinstate themselves. IMO, it works. I have (at least for now) lost ALL interest in medium-format cameras and ALL need for the mirrorless cameras with their  EVFs. The improved LiveView of the D850 is enough EVF to allow me to do what I need to do until.... someday... something much superior comes along.

And what an incredible bargain in price! Compared to the 15-20 thousand dollars to properly tool up for Hasselblad X1D or the Fuji GFX, spending about $3400 for the D850 (with a couple of extra batteries) is a steal. And have not even begun to explore this cameraís use in sports or nightclubs, which I will use for music acts, since I am around them a lot.

Not owning many AF lenses, the little focus-stacking option (which I think just produces JPGs!) is a non-starter for me. I like to roll my own stacks, thank you, and use the best lenses I have, many of which are not Nikkors. And without a raw option for this, I would never use this feature. But some I imagine will.

The D850 seems a tad heavier than the D810, but not enough to consider. The new more deeply-indented grip is nice, but I am always on a tripod, so not important to me. The batteries are said to last longer than those for the D810, but even these empty too fast for my taste.

I have an L-Bracket coming soon from RRS, so until then I am using the one for the D810. Works well enough for now. I never used the on-board flash on the D810, so would much prefer to have the larger OVF viewfinder, but will never use that... Well, maybe sometimes.

There are a great many features I have yet to try out, but my bread & butter settings are all there. The additional joystick I have no use for, already using the multi-selector button to move around. And, of course, setting my multi-selector-center button to magnify is the first thing I did. Works fine.

Iím sure readers know all of this, so Ií am just confessing my Yes for this camera.

Here is a shot with the APO-El Nikkor 105mm on the Cambo Actus of some New England Asters.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Jakov Minić on September 22, 2017, 22:56:02
Michael, it's good to hear that you are enjoying the camera, while I am enjoying your images.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 23, 2017, 00:25:48
Today I had a long chat with my brick & mortar vendor. He has a long waiting list of people ready to buy but no product is showing up at his door since I left the building at 7th September with my piece of cake. He also cannot get his hands on any MB-D18 which I preordered with the camera, let alone the ES-2, which is due in October.

Any better news concerning availability from other places?
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: BjÝrn RÝrslett on September 23, 2017, 00:48:58
My Nikon rep told me yesterday there are 7-8000+ units backlog in Europe for the battery grip alone. The back order list for the camera itself must be significantly longer. :(
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Michael Erlewine on September 23, 2017, 13:58:47
I am liking the new D850 the more I get used to it. For my work, it is about perfect.  Here are a few shots taken yesterday, two with the Nikkor CRT lens and one with the legendary Noct Nikkor. They are marked.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Airy on September 23, 2017, 21:24:06
what aperture did you use with the Noct ?
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: BjÝrn RÝrslett on September 23, 2017, 21:52:01
what aperture did you use with the Noct ?

Assuming I was the intended person, f/1.2
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Michael Erlewine on September 23, 2017, 21:59:17
Assuming I was the intended person, f/1.2

If your asking about my shot, it was wide open.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Airy on September 23, 2017, 22:59:51
Thank you both :)
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 24, 2017, 14:21:33
I tested low light capability in bad mixed light conditions yesterday, shot very nice portraits under ugly lighting conditions. My verdict: Superb color rendition and grain like luminance noise mixed into the skin tones. I have no permission of the people I took the photos from to show these one the net. Pity.

I changed picture style from "auto" to "standard" and I like the JPEG-results much better.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: golunvolo on September 24, 2017, 15:28:37
A shame as I will be very interested in low light real images from you. Im still going planing on getting one. Thanks please, share if you have another samples.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 24, 2017, 16:20:55
A shame as I will be very interested in low light real images from you. Im still going planing on getting one. Thanks please, share if you have another samples.

I can send them to you via private message, no problem. But I cannot post them to the public, because there is no model release. ...
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frode on September 24, 2017, 16:50:26
Itís been since about June of 2016 when I ordered the new Hasselblad X1D and waited. Then I ordered the Fuji GFX... and waited. I sent both of those back for various reasons along with a lot of lenses, etc.

Then I ordered the Nikon D850 and waited just a little.

I received my copy today and have only had a couple of hours of time in on it. There may be some deep-dark flaw, but I have not seen it yet. Some of our techsperts will have to check that out. My initial impressions, so far, are:

(1) The ISO 64 seems to be there.

(2) The extra Mpx are definitely worth it. Very much a difference that counts.

(3) The new LiveView screen is better than the D810 by a lot, but also perhaps a little more difficult to focus, not to see, but to adjust focus.

(4) The sharpness of older lenses like the photo here taken with the Voigtlander 125mm APO-Lanthar push this lens to a higher state of us. The camera makes sharpness... sharper, IMO.

(5) The color on the LiveView screen looks different than the D810, but the end result (color-wise) is excellent. No complaints.

I donít use auto-focus and I still have not got the camera set up properly, but Iím working on it. So my initial impression is that this camera is as good or even better than I had hoped and at a HUGE savings in cost, not to mention that I have so many great lenses in the Nikon F-mount. If I have a single doubt, and I am not done checking this out, the highlights may clip... slightly more easily than the D810, but I will wait for gear guys to test this.

So far, so good.

Photo by the D850 and Voigtlander 125mm APO-Lanthar lens.

The colors and bokeh; magic!
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: charlie on September 24, 2017, 21:01:13
I can send them to you via private message, no problem. But I cannot post them to the public, because there is no model release. ...

I get not posting portraits to the web for privacy concerns and out of respect, but model release is only necessary for commercial use where I live. I suspect you did not have model releases for everyone in the outdoor images posted earlier. Is this different because they were in a public space?
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: golunvolo on September 24, 2017, 21:03:54
I can send them to you via private message, no problem. But I cannot post them to the public, because there is no model release. ...

   Thank you Frank!
 
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: golunvolo on September 24, 2017, 22:39:52
Just downloaded the latest nx-d version. Iīm impressed with the 1800 iso and the ability to get +2 ev in post, correct the white balance and still get away with it.The rest is promising too. Thanks Frank
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 24, 2017, 22:57:57
I get not posting portraits to the web for privacy concerns and out of respect, but model release is only necessary for commercial use where I live. I suspect you did not have model releases for everyone in the outdoor images posted earlier. Is this different because they were in a public space?

More or less the answer is: YES, but not because it is a public space but because it is a public event. The detailed answer is: it is very complicated.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 24, 2017, 22:59:08
Just downloaded the latest nx-d version. Iīm impressed with the 1800 iso and the ability to get +2 ev in post, correct the white balance and still get away with it.The rest is promising too. Thanks Frank

what did you think about IQ of the ISO 9 000, ISO 11 400, ISO 25 600 that I sent to you?

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: golunvolo on September 24, 2017, 23:15:46
The one marked 9000 is actually iso 1800 (dsc_2171) Thatīs the one I pushed 2 stops with very good results.
  I like the 11400. I pushed it 1/3 and touch the wb  a little and I think it will work for me if needed. The high resolution helps a lot.
   25600 not for me.

   After seeing this I think I will comfortably shoot in the 1600-3200 range. It is the same thing Iīm doing with the d500 and the d750 as of today but with that resolution, speed and autofocus, silent shutter, etc...
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 24, 2017, 23:20:55
The one marked 9000 is actually iso 1800 (dsc_2171) Thatīs the one I pushed 2 stops with very good results.
  I like the 11400. I pushed it 1/3 and touch the wb  a little and I think it will work for me if needed. The high resolution helps a lot.
   25600 not for me.

   After seeing this I think I will comfortably shoot in the 1600-3200 range. It is the same thing Iīm doing with the d500 and the d750 as of today but with that resolution, speed and autofocus, silent shutter, etc...

The ISO9000 file I like is underway, sorry I mistook the number!
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: golunvolo on September 24, 2017, 23:32:43
Please Frank, you are so generous.

    Iso 9000 @1.4 an still this quality. I wanna try!  ;D
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on October 09, 2017, 07:39:13
http://zentralkraft.com/8bit_edit_DSC_3635.jpg

A real world portrait after editing an ooc:

http://zentralkraft.com/DSC_3635.JPG
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: richardHaw on October 09, 2017, 16:33:13
https://richardhaw.com/2017/10/09/update-nikon-d850-negative-digitizer-mode-pt2/

here is an updated post on the negative digitizer mode  :o :o :o

this time, with audio!!!  ::)

this feature is so damn quirky, looks like Nikon wanted this out before anybody else.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: arthurking83 on October 10, 2017, 17:25:06
 That negative digitizer feature sounds like a typical handy feature made completely stupid by Nikon's engineers!  ::)

I think they could have easily done the exact same thing, much more simply by simply adding a Picture Control type that does colour reversal as well as luminance reversal.
At the moment they only offer a luminance reversal option if you use their Picture Control software.

back in the good old D700 days(can't remember exactly what year that was, but back then anyhow), they had a few Nikon created Picture Controls you could download and use on compatible cameras.
Then they created the Picture Control Utility(for ViewNX2(and now ViewNX-i) and it seemed like some progress was being made.
But using the Picture Control Utility, you can only adjust reversal of tones on a luminance basis, and not colour, so for digitizing negatives you had to use software(I use CaptureNX2).

So as it stands: It appears to be an exercise only for the sake of marketing, in that the marketing folks have another line of useless info to fill in on their advertisement pages.
Almost makes one feel like their is no direction(or leadership) when it comes to actual engineering management for their products.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: richardHaw on October 10, 2017, 17:57:46
that's what i do and I am writing an article on that this weekend.  :o :o :o
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on October 10, 2017, 19:25:49
It is typical that the first implementation is crude and then they improve it in subsequent iterations until it is good. Itís a business model.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ethan on October 10, 2017, 21:35:39
https://richardhaw.com/2017/10/09/update-nikon-d850-negative-digitizer-mode-pt2/

here is an updated post on the negative digitizer mode  :o :o :o

this time, with audio!!!  ::)

this feature is so damn quirky, looks like Nikon wanted this out before anybody else.



That negative digitizer feature sounds like a typical handy feature made completely stupid by Nikon's engineers!  ::)

I think they could have easily done the exact same thing, much more simply by simply adding a Picture Control type that does colour reversal as well as luminance reversal.
At the moment they only offer a luminance reversal option if you use their Picture Control software.

back in the good old D700 days(can't remember exactly what year that was, but back then anyhow), they had a few Nikon created Picture Controls you could download and use on compatible cameras.
Then they created the Picture Control Utility(for ViewNX2(and now ViewNX-i) and it seemed like some progress was being made.
But using the Picture Control Utility, you can only adjust reversal of tones on a luminance basis, and not colour, so for digitizing negatives you had to use software(I use CaptureNX2).

So as it stands: It appears to be an exercise only for the sake of marketing, in that the marketing folks have another line of useless info to fill in on their advertisement pages.
Almost makes one feel like their is no direction(or leadership) when it comes to actual engineering management for their products.

Please explain to me how this is "quirky" and how does this make the leadership of Nikon failing the engineering management of their product.

So you have a new camera where by Nikon specifies that digitizing negs or pos should be done with a new device ES-2. Furthermore they are specifying the lens to be used and the Mode to be applied.........and then you have a Johny come lately making a video who uses a different lens plus an extension plus a different digitizing adapter plus Manual mode and gives the cyberworld his take on the failing of the product???????

Really??????

And then we have here two illustrious members jumping on the band wagon to diss Nikon.

Really?

Please enlighten me how you both came to such conclusion as I am an avid learner from my learned peers.

But before that and so we would take you seriously Do you Have:
1- a D850
2- the new digitizing adapter ES-2

I thank you.

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: arthurking83 on October 11, 2017, 03:03:42


Please explain to me how this is "quirky" and how does this make the leadership of Nikon failing the engineering management of their product.

.....

From my point of view, and to be sure this is just my point of view, and nothing else!

I used to think that there was some kind of limitation as to what Picture Controls could or couldn't do whilst doing their internal things in the camera.

ie. I simply assumed that the cameras internal processing simply can't comprehend colour reversal, so using Picture Controls it can't be done.
If you've ever played with the Picture Control Utility(on computer) you'll understand.
It gives you the ability to create creative effects on some images on the computer, then save that Picture Control and upload it to the camera.
one of those creative control options is to play with the levels tool, so you can easily do luminance reversal(amongst other things).
So if you were to digitize black and white negatives, you could easily do this in camera and see the reversal outcome on screen(handy for exposure reasons).
The added bonus is that you maintain the raw(NEF) workflow too.
So if they can do colour reversal in camera, then there is no limitation as to what the camera CAN do in that sense .. so there is no reason why this same process can't be produced in camera simply via the Picture Control system.
Instead they clutter up the menu system with features that are not only regular items(ie. can't imagine users dong negative digitization on a regular basis) .. and that menu item could easily be used for any other purpose that could be more of a regular usage item.

So adding this item into the firmware takes up coding time(for the coding of the firmware) .. when they already have a system whereby this could be implemented(ie. the Picture Control system)
The user doesn't even need the Picture Control Utility to create a colour reversal Picture Control style .. all it requires is one person to do it, and then share the Picture Control freely amongst those that also want to use it.

So, not only does additional coding take time to implement into the firmware for the camera(ie. delayed camera announcement/release) it also complicates the firmware code too .. ie. more likely for bugs, and to ensure it doesn't create bugs, it has to be tested and debugged .. ie. added time delay.

That to me is a leadership issue!(ie. whoever the person in charge of the implementation of the firmware was)
That is, the leader of the software side of the device should have stepped up to the plate and announced that this 'feature' would have been best, and more simply, added as a simple Picture Control style.
Simplifying the firmware(or adding a more useful feature item into he firmware instead) could have resulted, or earlier introductory of the actual device.

The idea is great, and if implemented properly something I'd probably use, even tho not on a very regular basis. But, to not offer raw file capture is pure silly!
You can use a mobile phone to do the same, so as a feature for a $4-5K camera .. it's pretty miserable. In fact now that Android allows raw file capture, it's probably a better feature on a mobile phone!

Why is raw file important(for me) .. simply for the white balance alteration. Hard to achieve with a negative(even with calculated lighting, and I used a high CRI halogen as my light source), but choosing a grey point in PP gave me the best whitebalance outcome for my digitized negatives.

I had a job lot of a few hundred negs and colour slides to digitize a few years back, but it turns out they were all thrown out! So that job lot didn't eventuate. But I did get the PB-4 + PS-4 slide accessory to do that lot.
Setup took some time, but once that was done, I did about 30 test negs in about 30 mins with a lot of due care.
Then used CNX2 to do the conversion on the NEF files, using the levels and curves tool to do the reversal.

As for the hardware:
No D850 yet! (will in a few months once all bugs and issues have been found/sorted.
no ES-2, but as it's a simple dumb adapter(basically a tube) at a ridiculous price. Zero interest in it.
My PB-4+PS-4 setup is not only more flexible but more practical for other uses as well .. and it cost me less to acquire(granted that it was second hand, but in Ex++ condition)

Hope that makes sense.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: richardHaw on October 11, 2017, 03:46:37
Thanks Arthur for taking care of that :o :o :o
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Michael Erlewine on October 11, 2017, 08:31:08
Diglloyd (Lloyd Chambers) finally lays to rest the question of ISO 64 between the Nikon D810 and the new D850. Equally important to my work, he successfully vets the "lo" ISO values for each camera (ISO 31 on the D850 and ISO 50 on the D810), although they are not "real" ISOs. Of all the reports on the D850, this is what I am most interested in hearing about. One has to subscribe, but this report itself is worth the subscription IMO.

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on October 11, 2017, 09:23:38
See the DxO charts on the parallel thread comparing D850 and D750 - useful to also compare the D810 (with its legendary DR)

"see DxOMark Photographic Dynamic Range Chart (http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/DXOPDR.htm#Nikon%20D750,Nikon%20D850)." I'll post the screen grab for you:

(http://nikongear.online/examples/2017/10-2017/d850.jpg)

Moving from Photons to Photos to DxO Mark, you might want to read their latest article (https://www.dxomark.com/nikon-d850-sensor-review-first-dslr-hit-100-points). To quote, they say:

  • "The D850ís key strengths are its outstanding color (Portrait score) and dynamic range (Landscape score) at base ISO where it again ranks as the number one among all commercially available cameras weíve tested for these attributes. Offering outstanding dynamic range of 14.8 EV and color depth of 26.4 bit at base ISO, combined with its massive 45.7Mp resolution, the D850 is a mouthwatering prospect for landscape, studio, portrait, as well as high-end editorial or advertising photographers who are  seeking top-notch image quality for large-scale reproduction and display."

In DxO's comparision (https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D850-versus-Nikon-D750___1177_975), the D850 beats the D750 pretty much across the board. Here are some screen grabs from DxO Mark showing the differences (SNR and Tonal Range are near identical; however, Dynamic Range and Color Sensitivity favor the D850 throughout):


(http://nikongear.online/examples/2017/10-2017/d8501.jpg)


(http://nikongear.online/examples/2017/10-2017/d8502.jpg)


Granted, the D750 is a very good camera, arguably the better value.

However, when you factor in the AF, the sensor-size, the FPS, combined with the absolute best you can do in color/DR, the D850 earns its #1 spot among all cameras available today ... and the D750 its #11 spot.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ethan on October 11, 2017, 09:43:20
From my point of view, and to be sure this is just my point of view, and nothing else!

I used to think that there was some kind of limitation as to what Picture Controls could or couldn't do whilst doing their internal things in the camera.

ie. I simply assumed that the cameras internal processing simply can't comprehend colour reversal, so using Picture Controls it can't be done.
If you've ever played with the Picture Control Utility(on computer) you'll understand.
It gives you the ability to create creative effects on some images on the computer, then save that Picture Control and upload it to the camera.
one of those creative control options is to play with the levels tool, so you can easily do luminance reversal(amongst other things).
So if you were to digitize black and white negatives, you could easily do this in camera and see the reversal outcome on screen(handy for exposure reasons).
The added bonus is that you maintain the raw(NEF) workflow too.
So if they can do colour reversal in camera, then there is no limitation as to what the camera CAN do in that sense .. so there is no reason why this same process can't be produced in camera simply via the Picture Control system.
Instead they clutter up the menu system with features that are not only regular items(ie. can't imagine users dong negative digitization on a regular basis) .. and that menu item could easily be used for any other purpose that could be more of a regular usage item.

So adding this item into the firmware takes up coding time(for the coding of the firmware) .. when they already have a system whereby this could be implemented(ie. the Picture Control system)
The user doesn't even need the Picture Control Utility to create a colour reversal Picture Control style .. all it requires is one person to do it, and then share the Picture Control freely amongst those that also want to use it.

So, not only does additional coding take time to implement into the firmware for the camera(ie. delayed camera announcement/release) it also complicates the firmware code too .. ie. more likely for bugs, and to ensure it doesn't create bugs, it has to be tested and debugged .. ie. added time delay.

That to me is a leadership issue!(ie. whoever the person in charge of the implementation of the firmware was)
That is, the leader of the software side of the device should have stepped up to the plate and announced that this 'feature' would have been best, and more simply, added as a simple Picture Control style.
Simplifying the firmware(or adding a more useful feature item into he firmware instead) could have resulted, or earlier introductory of the actual device.

The idea is great, and if implemented properly something I'd probably use, even tho not on a very regular basis. But, to not offer raw file capture is pure silly!
You can use a mobile phone to do the same, so as a feature for a $4-5K camera .. it's pretty miserable. In fact now that Android allows raw file capture, it's probably a better feature on a mobile phone!

Why is raw file important(for me) .. simply for the white balance alteration. Hard to achieve with a negative(even with calculated lighting, and I used a high CRI halogen as my light source), but choosing a grey point in PP gave me the best whitebalance outcome for my digitized negatives.

I had a job lot of a few hundred negs and colour slides to digitize a few years back, but it turns out they were all thrown out! So that job lot didn't eventuate. But I did get the PB-4 + PS-4 slide accessory to do that lot.
Setup took some time, but once that was done, I did about 30 test negs in about 30 mins with a lot of due care.
Then used CNX2 to do the conversion on the NEF files, using the levels and curves tool to do the reversal.

As for the hardware:
No D850 yet! (will in a few months once all bugs and issues have been found/sorted.
no ES-2, but as it's a simple dumb adapter(basically a tube) at a ridiculous price. Zero interest in it.
My PB-4+PS-4 setup is not only more flexible but more practical for other uses as well .. and it cost me less to acquire(granted that it was second hand, but in Ex++ condition)

Hope that makes sense.

It does make sense in not making any sense.

Let us recap. The Nikon ES-2 offers the possibility of digitizing film using the Nikon 60/2.8 for an automated or semi automated process.

This is done by specifically using both lens and ES-2 adapter with LV in A mode. Not S or any other mode.

It seems that this video guy did not bother to read the D850 manual which is crystal clear about it in page 53.
Doing a whole video which repeats what Nikon said in the first place is taking the piss.


(https://i.imgur.com/EUAz8Y7.jpg)


(https://i.imgur.com/nC7DTDP.jpg)


You can also take full control and choose manual for the lens and manual mode and use S or A or whatever but you will loose the automation.
Subsequently, you could load your "Picture Control" to your heart content in full manual mode.
Not that there is any point going manual as it defeats the purpose of the ES-2 automation and you might as well continue doing what you were doing using the ES-1.

As for the RAW v Jpeg. Obviously the RAW would be a better route, however the Jpeg does offer a Fine mode for a higher res and pixel count.

Nikon has opened a new vista, a new route albeit might not be useful for heavy negs digitizing users, it sure finds solace with the occasional user.
Whether a 60/2.8 can only do the job or not will have to wait for the release of the ES-2.

At any rate, dissing Nikon and it's leadership and management for what you not comprehend or not matches with your "personal" expectations, is uncalled for.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on October 11, 2017, 09:58:09
One tester who feels uneasy on the the IQ of the medium RAW campared against the D5

https://neilvn.com/tangents/review-nikon-d850/

This also but still inadequate - https://neilvn.com/tangents/review-nikon-d850-high-iso-test-nikon-d5-d850-d810-d750/
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Eddie Draaisma on October 11, 2017, 13:21:31
Review on Photographylife, they spent some time with the focus stacking feature (that only works with AF lenses).

https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-d850
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on October 11, 2017, 17:09:20
D850 autofocus tests by dpreview

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d850-first-impressions-review/8

Interestingly their findings seem in agreement with Matt Granger's video testing: 3D Tracking would sometimes lose the subject in a way that was unexpected.  According to dpreview the AF tracking during burst shooting lags behind D5 but is better than D810, A7R II and 5Ds R.

I'm wondering if they used the MB-D18 grip and EN-EL18(a/b) battery in this testing or not. This could affect AF performance.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Bill Mellen on October 11, 2017, 19:57:51
One tester who feels uneasy on the the IQ of the medium RAW campared against the D5

https://neilvn.com/tangents/review-nikon-d850/

This also but still inadequate - https://neilvn.com/tangents/review-nikon-d850-high-iso-test-nikon-d5-d850-d810-d750/

Viewing his supplied .NEF files in small, medium and large in Capture NX-D is interesting. The large at 50%, medium at 75% and small at 100% are very close in detail. Most of the difference I see seems to be subtle changes in lighting and focus. The medium may have some camera shake or VR artifact that shows in the clock face on the right.

I would like to see more examples.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on October 11, 2017, 21:21:50
Viewing his supplied .NEF files in small, medium and large in Capture NX-D is interesting. The large at 50%, medium at 75% and small at 100% are very close in detail. Most of the difference I see seems to be subtle changes in lighting and focus. The medium may have some camera shake or VR artifact that shows in the clock face on the right.

I would like to see more examples.
Interesting - I have yet to test this function, but I place more credence in the tests (see Part 3) by Nasim Mansurov et al posted last month and still to be updated in their thorough review of the D850 https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-d850

thanks
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Bill Mellen on October 11, 2017, 22:14:00
Interesting - I have yet to test this function, but I place more credence in the tests (see Part 3) by Nasim Mansurov et al posted last month and still to be updated in their thorough review of the D850 https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-d850

thanks

Thanks Woody,

Nasim's review of the small, medium and large raw options is very interesting.  I don't have a D850 yet.  Maybe after the first of the year.  I probably should learn how to use the cameras that I have first  ::)
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on October 11, 2017, 22:16:39
D850 autofocus tests by dpreview

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d850-first-impressions-review/8

Interestingly their findings seem in agreement with Matt Granger's video testing: 3D Tracking would sometimes lose the subject in a way that was unexpected.  According to dpreview the AF tracking during burst shooting lags behind D5 but is better than D810, A7R II and 5Ds R.

I'm wondering if they used the MB-D18 grip and EN-EL18(a/b) battery in this testing or not. This could affect AF performance.
Grip or not, trying to rely on 3D-tracking with any background (let alone clutter) probably explains the glitches they had trying to keep the AF system on an erratic target. Besides differences between users with AF, one reads little if any reports that compare relevant systems directly on repeated trials under standardized conditions (eg D500 vs D850 vs D5). And setting the AF on the top Nikons is complicated. Here again, these rushed off reports seldom spell out what settings-they used.

Based on the past few days comparing the D500 and D850 on small passerine birds flying within clutter, I do not believe these reports. I set AFC with Group-Focus interchanging with Point-Focus (set DoF preview button to Point-Focus to complement Back Button AFC). I use the 300 f2.8G VRII with TC14E II on the D850

I will try and post some examples of the nuptial display by the male Shaft-tailed Whydahs - challenging subjects. Let alone when they are flitting in the clutter of twigs etc and in very challenging light. While waiting for the ideal behaviour of these little birds in the ideal light, I took these sequences deliberately to test the AF performance of the D850. Either harsh backlighting or near sunset (ISO 256 000). So terrible noise etc. Well...i've yet to use a D5 but so far I struggle to detect the differences between the D850 and D500 on AF (except the AF point coverage in respective viewfinders).

The sphingid Macroglossum daymoth is pollinating Plectranthus neochilus - again in clutter. All one can do is try and lock on to the hovering insect - a shimmering target wavering by the flower. And this is also with 300 f2.8 to track this erratic insect (3cm length) flitting between flowers....

With both these Nikons, my misses and failures are due to my own mistakes, as one relies on reflex to grab shots of fleeting events. To conclude so far, I'm impressed with the D850 AF :-)
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on October 12, 2017, 09:25:41
You are so right, Woody. Ability to cope with a very complicated AF system means success. The D850 and the D500 are as good as IT gets
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on October 12, 2017, 14:31:47
I think the reports I've seen are consistent in that group, dynamic area etc. work fine in the D850; the differences that have been reported between D850 and D5 are in 3D tracking a subject that moves across the frame in a zig-zag pattern. I am pretty sure dpreview are using a consistent test ideally they would do it in the same time of day in the same place with the same subject doing a certain routine with the bicycle (how controlled it is I don't know but I know they've been thinking about the procedure for a while before they went public with it). They are smart enough to understand that the test needs many repetitions to come out with conclusions. While I agree a consistent protocol for testing 3D tracking is difficult to achieve but several reports seem to align along the same finding: it is good but not quite as good in 3D tracking as the D5. Ideally this test would be done by a pair of shooters with both cameras at the same time, and then swap cameras between shooters, and repeat, several times until reliable conclusions (or not) can be made.

I don't often use 3D tracking because it tends to lose the subject when another person crosses the line of sight between the camera and the subject. Also if skaters are spinning around each other the selected subject is quickly forgotten. I prefer using D9, group, single point as my main AF area modes in the D5 and auto area and D25 occasionally, depending on the situation. 3D may be useful at times but I'm not used to giving that much control to the camera. I think dpreview give too much weight to this type of AF technique where the camera tracks the subject across the frame. I think it's a fun algorithm to play with but in the end I want to be in control and don't want to have to correct the camera at the (unpredictable) moment when it loses the subject even if focus is not immediately lost. However, of course it is a worthy aim if the method gradually becomes more and more trustworthy. However, I would never choose or avoid a camera because of its 3D tracking performance.

I know some photographers use 3D tracking a lot. I guess subject and environment play a big role in how successful it is.

I use auto area AF for pairs and ice dancing when shooting at f/4. For wider apertures it can focus on the subject facing the camera successfully, but sometimes it does not. So I tend to go for the other modes when shooting these subjects at f/2.8 or f/2. Group area AF seems fantastic for fast moving subjects (provided that the precision afforded by the area is sufficient). Dynamic area AF can sometimes "think" too long but if it is fast enough it gives greater precision than group (since it priorities the selected point when it can).  For precise pinpoint focusing on moving subjects I've had best luck with D9 (on the D5). I used to be single point only shooter for many years and didn't like the dynamic area implementation in Multi-CAM 3500 cameras, but I find D9 on the D5 to be small enough to give enough control and large enough to compensate for wiggle in me trying to position the main point on the subject. Group area gives closest-subject priority within the group area and it is a good choice for large subjects at some distance but when getting close then it can focus on the subject's nose instead of the eyes, and so on. I still think it's one of the most effective AF area modes for fast action especially towards low light.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: arthurking83 on October 12, 2017, 14:51:13
.....
You can also take full control and choose manual for the lens and manual mode and use S or A or whatever but you will loose the automation.
Subsequently, you could load your "Picture Control" to your heart content in full manual mode.
Not that there is any point going manual as it defeats the purpose of the ES-2 automation and you might as well continue doing what you were doing using the ES-1.
As for the RAW v Jpeg. Obviously the RAW would be a better route, however the Jpeg does offer a Fine mode for a higher res and pixel count....

As already said, I don't (YET) have the D850, so I can't offer practical experience on how it works.
But I'm completely failing to see any advantage of the automation process that the ES-2 will offer.
I don't see how your attack on RichardHaw for his video preview has any bearing other than that it's just a blatant attack for no nett result.
He offered his opinion that the lack of customisation control is a major limitation (ie. that the camera is stuck in A mode!!) and your attack in his comments stem from his use of a non recommended lens .. yet Nikon doesn't demand the use of the 60/2.8 AF-S micro, only as a recommendation.
AND they clearly state that "any other micro" lens is suitable, and as far as I remember Rich did use .. ANY OTHER MICRO LENS!

To me the use of the term any other micro lens doesn't implicitly imply that the exemption to that statement is the specific lens and additional accessories(ie. the extension tube and ES-1) that Rich did use .. it literally means ANY OTHER micro lens.
So your attack on Rich is not only unwarranted, it's totally misguided .. and ultimately uncalled for.

The camera is still stuck in A mode no matter what micro lens is used.

.....
You can also take full control and choose manual for the lens and manual mode and use S or A or whatever but you will loose the automation.
Subsequently, you could load your "Picture Control" to your heart content in full manual mode.
Not that there is any point going manual as it defeats the purpose of the ES-2 automation and you might as well continue doing what you were doing using the ES-1.

As for the RAW v Jpeg. Obviously the RAW would be a better route, however the Jpeg does offer a Fine mode for a higher res and pixel count.

At any rate, dissing Nikon and it's leadership and management for what you not comprehend or not matches with your "personal" expectations, is uncalled for.

So here's the issue, you've read my discussion as a personal affront, otherwise you would not have misread what I wrote.

The problem is you CAN'T use a Picture Control to capture a reversed image of a colour negative!
And this is the crux of the issue.
Nikon have made a mess of a feature that even the most basic cheapest smart phone can do much more simply at a jpg setting.
They did it in a complicated manner that could have been simply done using a built in system that they already use(ie. the Picture Controls system).

So as a marketing feature, in effect, it's a massive fail.

So for this so called automation(that is seemingly important to you) as a potential customer, you not only pay US$3200 for the camera, but also need to spend upwards of US$800 for a specific lens and a very basic adapter and accessories for that adapter, just to take a very occasional digitized negative?
Marketing fail!
And to only capture a jpg image .. fail!
Smart phone can do this for free! Find a hand me down smart phone(usually free, I have 4 to offload for free if anyone wants one) load a free negative digitizer for free, and capture jpgs .. once again for free!

I think our respective uses for the NEF format will see us disagree on many things if you think the NEF format is all about the pixel count!.
For me a major use of NEF is white balance, among many other advantages such as dynamic range process ability.
I'd prefer 8Mp raw file with white balance adjustment capability, rather than 47Mp of useless jpg data!

That they didn't see it this way can only be described as a failure on the part of the people involved in the programming of this feature.

** They did the exact same thing with the Live view implementation on the D300 where the mirror flaps up and down multiple times needlessly! massive engineering fail for a feature that may have been useful, but made useless by someone high up in the decision making department at Nikon. That camera should never have been allowed to market with the Lv feature as it was.

Like I wrote earlier .. Coming from the perspective of NOT being a user of the feature, but as an observer of the implementation of the feature .. that and the Lv feature of the D300 are both major implementation fails, when better alternatives exist.
 
As a user, which I will be early in the new year, I won't(can't) use the negative digitizer, simply due to the uselessness of the feature .. but I will without any doubt still digitize some of my old negatives.
As a user of a D300, I just don't use Lv mode to capture images, and my choice of the D300 over the D200 back then was for the Lv feature!
 
Having done a fair bit of film digitization, I think I have a good comprehension of the features we're discussing here.
I'm thinking that you may not fully understand the process and the hardware involved(judging by your comments) in using the products to achieve the desired result of digitizing negatives using a digital camera.

If this is not the case then it would be nice to read your review of this feature and the advantages of using the automation process that the 60 AF-S Micro allows ... as opposed to Rich's method.
Nowhere does it state in the D850 literature that an ES-2 is required, or even recommended!
They only 'recommend' the 60 AF-S Micro, but then  mention the use of any other micro lens ... not require it! .. yet they still impose many needles limitations on using the camera the way most D850 users may find 'usable' .. and you defend this position.
nowhere do Nikon state that using those products offers any automation that would not otherwise be available if using 'any other micro lens'.

Anyhow! .. the right to defend is obviously a right that you have, just as it's my right to highlight the mishandling/mismanagement of the feature!
But if you offer a counter argument as you have, then surely it's incumbent on you to disclose the information you have on why you insist that Rich has not used an appropriate method and that your method, using 'recommended' accessories, is a more correct way?

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ethan on October 12, 2017, 15:54:32
Empirical discussion.

1- Unlike you, I would not and will not take any position to comment theoretically on a feature which is not yet available and hence cannot be tested.

2- I was more referring to the guy who did the video and not necessarily Richard, but inclusively, who is an old hand and would do his own testing.

3- An Attack is different from a comment or in this case two comments that needs to be answered unless you refute the art of discussion and consider an attack for any whom does not agree with you.
An Attack is you dissing Nikon leadership and they are not here nor likely would want to answer you.

Nuance my dear man, nuance.

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: arthurking83 on October 13, 2017, 00:30:32
From this last reply, I still think you don't fully understand or realise the topic or discussion both Richard and I have made on the feature.

Empirical discussion.

1- Unlike you, I would not and will not take any position to comment theoretically on a feature which is not yet available and hence cannot be tested....

And yet you already have! You claim that the ES-2 offers some form of automation on the D850. 

Read the manual. Whilst you are correct in that my comments are made on theory(that is I don't have access to a D850 yet), the manual (as you know) states how the feature works and only mentions the one accessory(60 AF-S lens) as one possible accessory required.
I'm not sure what the automation process is that you referred too when using the ES-2 adapter, but you should know that the ES-2 adapter/accessory wouldn't do anything that any other tube like device can do. There is no electrical or electronic connection to the front of the lens to allow some intricate automation process of any kind.
It's simply an updated version of the ES-1 device with a different design type(namely the slide and strip holders) .. all this ES-2(ie. the tube section) does, is hold the film at a certain distance and the tube doubles as a way to remove ambient light from the front of the lens to the film itself.
Quite important if you want a high quality rendering of the film.
PB-4 + PS-4 attachment does the same thing only that the 'tube' is a variable length bellows.

An easy way to see how silly Nikon's marketing really is, I ask you to view the ES-2 product page on Nikon's website and analyse the info they show under the 'compatible with' tab! ;)
If you can't disseminate this info, I'll tell you that the compatible with info is silly because, on it's own(ie. without the micro lens) .. the ES-2 is totally incompatible with the D850 alone.
How do you mount it, without an F-62mm adapter of some type and a lens to focus it.
The info that it's compatible with the D850 is made even more silly(as it's compatibility is with a lens of some type) in that there is an implication that it's not compatible with any other Nikon camera?
That is, if I have any other Nikon camera that the ES-2 will not work!

... 2- I was more referring to the guy who did the video and not necessarily Richard, but inclusively, who is an old hand and would do his own testing. ...

I'm not 100% sure which video you are referring too, but the one that RichardHaw linked too was done by Richard himself. If you are referring to another video I apologise for my misunderstanding.


....
3- An Attack is different from a comment or in this case two comments that needs to be answered unless you refute the art of discussion and consider an attack for any whom does not agree with you.
An Attack is you dissing Nikon leadership and they are not here nor likely would want to answer you...

The use of the term diss may be a sticking point too tho.
I'd use that term if my comment was something like "I think Nikon engineers are a bunch of buffoons .. no reason just my opinion". A negative comment as such with no reason or explanation is unwarranted.
But they introduced a feature that is far too limiting for the target audience it that the camera is intended for*. ie. simple thing like you can't change shutter speed! .. and need to control shutter speed with ISO if you're aperture limited?
Like I said, if you've done film digitization with a camera you'd understand why such a silly limitation, can be important.

Therefore berating Nikon management is not an attack.. or at least an unwarranted attack. It's a negative comment on their ability to create a feature for sure, but based on empirical data.

1. the camera didn't design itself. If this was the case, then my 'attack' will surely change direction and be targeted at the camera. We both know how silly that last comment is, so not applicable. The camera didn't design/engineer itself.
2. someone or some group had to design the camera. ie. a designer/engineer/whatever.
3. someone or some group had to sign off on the design/engineering/feature set. ie. middle to upper management.

To blame the camera or diss the camera is mistargeting the complaint. And by all other observations is an excellent device, and is why I'm going to get one for myself when I can.
To blame the designer/engineer .. whilst it could be appropriate, I believe that they probably just didn't realise that a better way could be done, and in part is already available** without the need for added complex coding of the firmware.
Considering that this is a feature that some of us may use on a regular basis, and that the implementation is sub par .. blame on it's limited ability has to rest at the middle/upper management team that signed off on the design.
Blaming the CEO or whatever the top person's role is called at Nikon isn't helpful, as they wouldn't be privy to such trivial issues.. not their job role.
But it is the job role of a middle manager that is employed for the purpose of keeping the project as simple as possible, quick as possible and, for us users, to offer the best possible outcome.

* the D850 is not really a device that targets auto mode camera users. This is evidenced by the simple fact that it has no Auto type modes like a consumer model does.
** As I said earlier you can digitise black and white film(which I don't have any to test), using a moderately modern Nikon camera and a self styled Picture Control using tone/luminance reversal. But this reversal doesn't work on colour.
So the colours don't work out when it comes to reversal. It would have taken far less coding effort to redress that one small element in The Picture Control Utility rather than add more complex coding to the camera itself.

On a more personal note, with respect to your comment that Nikon aren't here to respond to my comments, this in itself is another marketing fail. Remember we are the customers, and the old adage that the customer is always right applies to Nikon, as much as any other company that requires customers, for that company to remain a viable entity. It is a provable point that if the company alienates enough customers, they risk their viability as a profitable entity.
Nikon would be best advised to employ more customer relations operatives to absorb and use customer feedback across a wide spectrum of sources. And more so at a time when their market share is slowly dwindling, and their product quality control has been lacking in recent years!
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ethan on October 13, 2017, 13:44:22
From this last reply, I still think you don't fully understand or realise the topic or discussion both Richard and I have made on the feature.

And yet you already have! You claim that the ES-2 offers some form of automation on the D850. 

Read the manual. Whilst you are correct in that my comments are made on theory(that is I don't have access to a D850 yet), the manual (as you know) states how the feature works and only mentions the one accessory(60 AF-S lens) as one possible accessory required.
I'm not sure what the automation process is that you referred too when using the ES-2 adapter, but you should know that the ES-2 adapter/accessory wouldn't do anything that any other tube like device can do. There is no electrical or electronic connection to the front of the lens to allow some intricate automation process of any kind.
It's simply an updated version of the ES-1 device with a different design type(namely the slide and strip holders) .. all this ES-2(ie. the tube section) does, is hold the film at a certain distance and the tube doubles as a way to remove ambient light from the front of the lens to the film itself.
Quite important if you want a high quality rendering of the film.
PB-4 + PS-4 attachment does the same thing only that the 'tube' is a variable length bellows.

An easy way to see how silly Nikon's marketing really is, I ask you to view the ES-2 product page on Nikon's website and analyse the info they show under the 'compatible with' tab! ;)
If you can't disseminate this info, I'll tell you that the compatible with info is silly because, on it's own(ie. without the micro lens) .. the ES-2 is totally incompatible with the D850 alone.
How do you mount it, without an F-62mm adapter of some type and a lens to focus it.
The info that it's compatible with the D850 is made even more silly(as it's compatibility is with a lens of some type) in that there is an implication that it's not compatible with any other Nikon camera?
That is, if I have any other Nikon camera that the ES-2 will not work!

I'm not 100% sure which video you are referring too, but the one that RichardHaw linked too was done by Richard himself. If you are referring to another video I apologise for my misunderstanding.


The use of the term diss may be a sticking point too tho.
I'd use that term if my comment was something like "I think Nikon engineers are a bunch of buffoons .. no reason just my opinion". A negative comment as such with no reason or explanation is unwarranted.
But they introduced a feature that is far too limiting for the target audience it that the camera is intended for*. ie. simple thing like you can't change shutter speed! .. and need to control shutter speed with ISO if you're aperture limited?
Like I said, if you've done film digitization with a camera you'd understand why such a silly limitation, can be important.

Therefore berating Nikon management is not an attack.. or at least an unwarranted attack. It's a negative comment on their ability to create a feature for sure, but based on empirical data.

1. the camera didn't design itself. If this was the case, then my 'attack' will surely change direction and be targeted at the camera. We both know how silly that last comment is, so not applicable. The camera didn't design/engineer itself.
2. someone or some group had to design the camera. ie. a designer/engineer/whatever.
3. someone or some group had to sign off on the design/engineering/feature set. ie. middle to upper management.

To blame the camera or diss the camera is mistargeting the complaint. And by all other observations is an excellent device, and is why I'm going to get one for myself when I can.
To blame the designer/engineer .. whilst it could be appropriate, I believe that they probably just didn't realise that a better way could be done, and in part is already available** without the need for added complex coding of the firmware.
Considering that this is a feature that some of us may use on a regular basis, and that the implementation is sub par .. blame on it's limited ability has to rest at the middle/upper management team that signed off on the design.
Blaming the CEO or whatever the top person's role is called at Nikon isn't helpful, as they wouldn't be privy to such trivial issues.. not their job role.
But it is the job role of a middle manager that is employed for the purpose of keeping the project as simple as possible, quick as possible and, for us users, to offer the best possible outcome.

* the D850 is not really a device that targets auto mode camera users. This is evidenced by the simple fact that it has no Auto type modes like a consumer model does.
** As I said earlier you can digitise black and white film(which I don't have any to test), using a moderately modern Nikon camera and a self styled Picture Control using tone/luminance reversal. But this reversal doesn't work on colour.
So the colours don't work out when it comes to reversal. It would have taken far less coding effort to redress that one small element in The Picture Control Utility rather than add more complex coding to the camera itself.

On a more personal note, with respect to your comment that Nikon aren't here to respond to my comments, this in itself is another marketing fail. Remember we are the customers, and the old adage that the customer is always right applies to Nikon, as much as any other company that requires customers, for that company to remain a viable entity. It is a provable point that if the company alienates enough customers, they risk their viability as a profitable entity.
Nikon would be best advised to employ more customer relations operatives to absorb and use customer feedback across a wide spectrum of sources. And more so at a time when their market share is slowly dwindling, and their product quality control has been lacking in recent years!

This is getting tedious.

The issue is two folds:

1- The viability of the new NIKON D850 feature to digitize Negs
2- Dissing the Nikon Leadership and Engineering Management

You can huff and you can puff, this will not change one iota to your dissing the Nikon Leadership and Engineering Management.

This discussion has now exhausted it's course and I am done here.

You are most welcome to continue the discussion off this thread.

Over and out.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on October 13, 2017, 14:55:37
You can huff and you can puff, this will not change one iota...

No! This is wrong...

The quote is: "Then I'll huff, and I'll puff, and I'll blow your house in."

Dave Hartman

...and don't get me started about furze.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: arthurking83 on October 13, 2017, 14:56:50
...
This discussion has now exhausted it's course and I am done here.

You are most welcome to continue the discussion off this thread.

Over and out.

Fair enough.
So when the focus of the topic does an about face and you've been taken to task to provide some evidence or proof of your comments, or it's made you realise that you have completely misunderstood the discussion, the response is that "you're done with it".

Fair enough and feel free to PM me or start a new thread if you like on why you would assume it to be fair for you to make theoretical assertions (re the automation process that you mentioned but have no evidence of), but that I'm not allowed the same courtesy to offer my assessment of a review/preview of a feature that is clearly substandard in it's implementation.
I'm curious as to why my contributions are less worthy, or that I am in some way discriminated against, relative to your standing on this forum.

And while you're on the topic of dissing, and also in the PM menu system, I think it'd be prudent for you to offer an apology to RichardHaw for your inappropriate dissing of his video review of that same feature.

And thanks for taking the time to elaborate clearly and concisely on the question's I've asked of you too ..  ::)

Oh!.. and 'Roger' to your "over and out"
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: richardHaw on October 14, 2017, 07:16:50
Thanks, Arthur for the educate response  :o :o :o

and now, back to regular programming  ::)

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/interview/1081951.html (use google translate)

some interesting things mentioned here about the sensor (back-illumination). pardon the Engrish, I read Japanese but not well enough for technical translation.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on October 14, 2017, 11:34:43
Good interview. The interviewer asks relevant questions.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: richardHaw on October 14, 2017, 13:56:21
there are some things that didn't translate very well through google translate but it's generally spot-on in most cases  :o :o :o

My Japanese is no match for Akira-san's  ::)
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Akira on October 14, 2017, 21:32:07
there are some things that didn't translate very well through google translate but it's generally spot-on in most cases  :o :o :o

My Japanese is no match for Akira-san's  ::)

I've been quite busy.  This is a two-part interview, and the one Richard linked is the first half.

I'll post the summarized translation after the part 2 is published.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: richardHaw on October 15, 2017, 15:48:55
I've been quite busy.  This is a two-part interview, and the one Richard linked is the first half.

I'll post the summarized translation after the part 2 is published.

I will wait for the 2nd part  :o :o :o

Sato Hauro-san will be giving us a tour on the 27th around lunch and talk about some Nikkor lens design and philosophy. If you have time maybe you will want to join? ::)
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: richardHaw on October 15, 2017, 15:51:12
Going back to the Nikon D850's digitizer gimmick, this is what I use and I think that this is a bit more flexible  :o :o :o :

http://richardhaw.com/2017/10/13/negative-digitization-with-a-nikon-dslr/
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Akira on October 15, 2017, 15:58:49
I will wait for the 2nd part  :o :o :o

Sato Hauro-san will be giving us a tour on the 27th around lunch and talk about some Nikkor lens design and philosophy. If you have time maybe you will want to join? ::)

Unfortunately I have another appointment on the 27th.  Hope you enjoy the tour.

In the 2nd part, they will discuss the new "natural light auto" and the digitizing of the negative films among others.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on October 15, 2017, 20:53:36
Today I had another event with some difficult light situations. An event I know inside out, did it several times with all of my earlier cameras and I can for sure say that the D850 is a much better extension of my mind & soul than any of my earlier cameras.

Only the AF-System is still a tad different that the D500 AF-System and I have to be very careful which settings I chose or I will lose shots that would be easy with the right settings.

Apart from that fine tuning I can highly recommend the camera as the best camera Nikon has built to date. The D850 is as big a step from my D600 as my D3 was from my D70!!!
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on October 17, 2017, 11:17:46
Review in Polish - with some data https://www.optyczne.pl/381.3-Test_aparatu-Nikon_D850_U%C5%BCytkowanie_i_ergonomia.html

google translate works fine
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on October 17, 2017, 23:41:10
very interesting test. had some trouble focussing with tje 1.8/85G in low light just like him. I did in fact think of user error more than camera error, see above. Situations in which the D500 had no trouble at all. Interesting. Further investigation is necessary.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on November 06, 2017, 22:57:01
High ISO is not so bad on the D850 either....

NIKON D850
Nikkor 1.4/105E

    f/1.4
    105 mm
    1/400 s
    25600
    Nov 3, 2017
    fotokontext.de

I decided to leave the chroma noise as is, because it gives the shot a Frankenstein like aura
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: ArthurDent on November 07, 2017, 04:06:35
Very nice shot, Frank.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on November 07, 2017, 08:43:50
thank you Arthur. It was a special night which made the superb responsiveness and dependability of the camera shine. She is up to long bursts but I usually need only short bursts:
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Fons Baerken on November 07, 2017, 08:45:56
fine grain noise like that will make a perfect b/w  ;)
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on November 07, 2017, 08:48:17
fine grain noise like that will make a perfect b/w  ;)

absolutely. Great WB makes it possible to show the color mood as the light designers made it
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Alaun on November 09, 2017, 17:12:47
 :)

nice cropping potential

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Alaun on November 09, 2017, 17:17:27
a further one

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Thomas G on November 09, 2017, 20:47:07
a further one
Zollverein, Essen, Germany? I think I recognize the chain conveyor stacker and the winding tower.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on November 09, 2017, 20:47:17
Hey, Werner! Where did you manage to get one?
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Thomas G on November 09, 2017, 20:52:39
Hey, Werner! Where did you manage to get one?
the fun lot... like them. Looks like you had fun beside filling memory cards.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Alaun on November 09, 2017, 22:03:21
@Thomas: Yes, Zeche Zollverein in Essen

@Frank: Just went into a shop and got one (mid of October, in Aachen) :)
Considered I was lucky, because I had birthday 8)


Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on November 10, 2017, 07:56:56
the fun lot... like them. Looks like you had fun beside filling memory cards.

Perfect responsiveness and dependability add a lot to spontaneous shooting.

And, yes, the memory cards fill fast!!!
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: golunvolo on November 10, 2017, 23:30:57
Frank, thats a big selling image. Love the first one.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on November 12, 2017, 00:32:11
Frank, thats a big selling image. Love the first one.

I wanted to be a professional dancer at age 19
I wanted to be a professional drummer at age 38
Now I am happy to be a professional writer, photographer and project manager at age 51
Hope to hug you in may and go light hunting with you!

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: JohnBrew on November 12, 2017, 03:44:05
Word is that another batch is supposed to be released on the 24th. Kinda wish I had bought one when is was in Italy on the release date. The dealer in Siena had three in stock!
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on November 12, 2017, 18:52:38
After two month and a lot of experience with the camera in private and on assignments in different lighting I can sure say what I said at first glimpse:

the High ISO performance of my D850 is NOT BETTER than the ISO performance of my D500, just the character of the noise is different. More chrominance noise in the D850, more luminance noise in the D500
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: BW on November 12, 2017, 20:07:46
I have used the D850 since the release date and I concur with Frank in that the character of the noise is different. I haven't concluded yet, but I think I find the the D850 noise more pleasing. Just like I find the Olympus noise more pleasing than the D500 noise. Thats really what it boils down to nowadays, what cameras one find the noise and performance to fit ones style of photography. They are all, that good. I'm not sure if we would see any significant jump in ISO-performance or image quality in the foreseeable future. Increments maybe, not jumps.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on November 13, 2017, 09:32:04
With D850 images up to ISO 7000 I'm pleased with editing the noise using Dfine2 (Nik Collection) from within Lightroom.

Steve Perry's recent review lists side by side comparisons of ISO performance of the D850 against D500 (also D5 and D810).....scroll down under the vidoe There is a distinct advantage of the D850 over the D500 in cropping the FX image.

Links in parallel thread, and the resultant guest post by Steve Perry on NR has some interesting commentaries on his images
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on November 30, 2017, 12:50:38
Without the MB-D18 the camera still feels incomplete. I like the One-Digit-Feel, esp with big glass. A D5x would be ideal for my purpose, but a gripped D850 would also not be that bad. Where are all the pre ordered MB-D18s? I already got two EN-EL18 waiting!
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on December 11, 2017, 05:10:26
I just ordered a D850.  I did not read this entire thread and don't have the slightest idea of what it will do better than my D800.  What I do know is my D800 works but is beat up.  It can't be serviced without sending it off somewhere for a minimum 3 week turnaround due to Nikon USA's insane parts policies and a stubborn guy (a great repairman) who refuses to play ball with Nikon or source parts off eBay.  My D800 will be treasured as a backup just in case the D850 needs service.  That might be reason enough.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on December 11, 2017, 20:36:16
Ron: If you find someone who actually has a D850 to sell, you cannot go wrong with her. Note that the D500 ist not worse than the D850. I just prefer to have a DX and a FX body on me...
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on December 13, 2017, 05:50:38
Ron: If you find someone who actually has a D850 to sell, you cannot go wrong with her. Note that the D500 ist not worse than the D850. I just prefer to have a DX and a FX body on me...

The D850 is backordered.  It might show up sometime after the holidays.  It's hard to know when it will ship because many people place multiple orders and cancel after the first one ships.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviewsould
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on December 17, 2017, 17:57:21
I got the D850 on Friday and tested it in figure skating photography using 300/4 PF, 70-200 FL and 200/2 II. I am left with mixed feelings.

The good: images are stunningly detailed. The touchscreen functionality is much more general than in the D5 and works well. Tolerably good images in artificial light at ISO 6400 (with the D810 I was happy until ISO 2000). (Unrelated to figure skating photography: When tested with a stationary subject, he 300 PF hand held in quiet mode give visibly sharper images at 1/50s (with EFCS on) than in S mode: it seems the slower rise of the mirror and the electronic first curtain now are available for hand held shooting and work brilliantly in Q/Qc modes. )

The surprise: Snapbridge worked basically as one would expect if one hadnít read all the bad reports of v. 1.0. I was able to connect to my iPhone 6 without problems and automatic transfer of small jpgs worked fine as long as the camera was set to record both raw and jpg. I didnít try full size image transfer. Also the camera remote control with exposure adjustments worked as well as sending manually selected images. Stopping automatic transfer didnít work immediately - it took hours to clear the buffer of images in the queue it seems and I would appreciate a refinement where automatic transfer is suspended immediately so I can speed up the transfer of priority images selected manually.

The not so good: Well, sometimes the camera would hesitate to focus on the skater. When I lost my patience I lifted my thumb from AF-ON and pressed it again then it would focus. The shots that the camera would take were generally in focus and highly detailed. However, the hesitations happened every once in a while. Sometimes the camera would not respond to controls in image review (playback). It would take some time before it got ĒonlineĒ again. I was mostly using D25 and group-area AF. I think the AF hesitation mostly was in dynamic area mode.

I have some theories/speculation. I suspect either the camera is busy processing the rather large files and this causes bottlenecks / delays in AF processing, or there may be a firmware bug. Switching back and forth between the two cameras left the impression that one was much more responsive than the other.

I am a little disappointed. I understand that a 45MP camera isnít likely to be as fast as a 20MP one especially when the latter is purpose-made for action and more expensive. However I expected the responsivity to be closer. I have no complaints about AF accuracy - after auto fine tuning all my lenses seemed to focus where they needed to (with excellent detail). Itís just that I am used to immediate response when I request the camera to do something and this behaviour was unexpected.

Iíll talk to Nikon about this when I get the opportunity and when I have more experience with the camera.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviewsould
Post by: Frode on December 18, 2017, 16:35:42
I got the D850 on Friday and tested it in figure skating photography using 300/4 PF, 70-200 FL and 200/2 II. I am left with mixed feelings.

The good: images are stunningly detailed. The touchscreen functionality is much more general than in the D5 and works well. Tolerably good images in artificial light at ISO 6400 (with the D810 I was happy until ISO 2000). (Unrelated to figure skating photography: When tested with a stationary subject, he 300 PF hand held in quiet mode give visibly sharper images at 1/50s (with EFCS on) than in S mode: it seems the slower rise of the mirror and the electronic first curtain now are available for hand held shooting and work brilliantly in Q/Qc modes. )

The surprise: Snapbridge worked basically as one would expect if one hadn’t read all the bad reports of v. 1.0. I was able to connect to my iPhone 6 without problems and automatic transfer of small jpgs worked fine as long as the camera was set to record both raw and jpg. I didn’t try full size image transfer. Also the camera remote control with exposure adjustments worked as well as sending manually selected images. Stopping automatic transfer didn’t work immediately - it took hours to clear the buffer of images in the queue it seems and I would appreciate a refinement where automatic transfer is suspended immediately so I can speed up the transfer of priority images selected manually.

The not so good: Well, sometimes the camera would hesitate to focus on the skater. When I lost my patience I lifted my thumb from AF-ON and pressed it again then it would focus. The shots that the camera would take were generally in focus and highly detailed. However, the hesitations happened every once in a while. Sometimes the camera would not respond to controls in image review (playback). It would take some time before it got ”online” again. I was mostly using D25 and group-area AF. I think the AF hesitation mostly was in dynamic area mode.

I have some theories/speculation. I suspect either the camera is busy processing the rather large files and this causes bottlenecks / delays in AF processing, or there may be a firmware bug. Switching back and forth between the two cameras left the impression that one was much more responsive than the other.

I am a little disappointed. I understand that a 45MP camera isn’t likely to be as fast as a 20MP one especially when the latter is purpose-made for action and more expensive. However I expected the responsivity to be closer. I have no complaints about AF accuracy - after auto fine tuning all my lenses seemed to focus where they needed to (with excellent detail). It’s just that I am used to immediate response when I request the camera to do something and this behaviour was unexpected.

I’ll talk to Nikon about this when I get the opportunity and when I have more experience with the camera.

Interesting experience.

I tried a D850 during a Golden eagle ęsessionĽ a couple of weeks ago (good light) and I must say that the AF performance was really impressive! It didn’t have any problems regarding BIF- situations. In fact, I don’t think my D4s would do any better in those situations. I don’t think I had any out of focus pictures during BIF- situations.

Amazing quality of the files!

Must say that I’m considering a D850, but not if your experience turns out to be a general ęproblemĽ.

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviewsould
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on December 19, 2017, 10:36:03
Must say that Iím considering a D850, but not if your experience turns out to be a general ęproblemĽ.

Well, I might not have noticed anything if I weren't used to the D5. Any new camera takes some getting used to before knowing how to operate it in an optimal way.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on December 19, 2017, 17:06:42
I got the D850 on Friday and tested it in figure skating photography using 300/4 PF, 70-200 FL and 200/2 II. I am left with mixed feelings.

The good: images are stunningly detailed. The touchscreen functionality is much more general than in the D5 and works well. Tolerably good images in artificial light at ISO 6400 (with the D810 I was happy until ISO 2000). (Unrelated to figure skating photography: When tested with a stationary subject, he 300 PF hand held in quiet mode give visibly sharper images at 1/50s (with EFCS on) than in S mode: it seems the slower rise of the mirror and the electronic first curtain now are available for hand held shooting and work brilliantly in Q/Qc modes. )

The surprise: Snapbridge worked basically as one would expect if one hadnít read all the bad reports of v. 1.0. I was able to connect to my iPhone 6 without problems and automatic transfer of small jpgs worked fine as long as the camera was set to record both raw and jpg. I didnít try full size image transfer. Also the camera remote control with exposure adjustments worked as well as sending manually selected images. Stopping automatic transfer didnít work immediately - it took hours to clear the buffer of images in the queue it seems and I would appreciate a refinement where automatic transfer is suspended immediately so I can speed up the transfer of priority images selected manually.

The not so good: Well, sometimes the camera would hesitate to focus on the skater. When I lost my patience I lifted my thumb from AF-ON and pressed it again then it would focus. The shots that the camera would take were generally in focus and highly detailed. However, the hesitations happened every once in a while. Sometimes the camera would not respond to controls in image review (playback). It would take some time before it got ĒonlineĒ again. I was mostly using D25 and group-area AF. I think the AF hesitation mostly was in dynamic area mode.

I have some theories/speculation. I suspect either the camera is busy processing the rather large files and this causes bottlenecks / delays in AF processing, or there may be a firmware bug. Switching back and forth between the two cameras left the impression that one was much more responsive than the other.

I am a little disappointed. I understand that a 45MP camera isnít likely to be as fast as a 20MP one especially when the latter is purpose-made for action and more expensive. However I expected the responsivity to be closer. I have no complaints about AF accuracy - after auto fine tuning all my lenses seemed to focus where they needed to (with excellent detail). Itís just that I am used to immediate response when I request the camera to do something and this behaviour was unexpected.

Iíll talk to Nikon about this when I get the opportunity and when I have more experience with the camera.


Try the same in Offline mode.

I switched Offline mode on on day one and never turned back: I guess the background-tasks are not well managed in current firmware.

No hiccups sind 7 September and I use her every day.

d9 AF is great
3D Af in certain situations, like picking a person from the crowd with a fast prime.
Auto AF if I want to have focus on the nearest object
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on December 20, 2017, 13:36:44

Try the same in Offline mode.

Thanks for the tip.

I was trying to reproduce the slight delay in AF that I experienced at the skating event at home and wasn't able to detect any perceptible delay or AF performance issue indoors in low light.  I think it's not something that will show up in normal day-to-day shooting but in intense circumstances. I'll comment on it again when I am shooting some action later on.

Quote
d9 AF is great

D9 is indeed a great AF mode, it's the mode I use most commonly with the D5. In figure skating I tend to congregate to D25 as the movement is sufficiently unpredictable that I can find it hard to hold the 9-point area on the subject and D25 helps with that a bit. At longer distances I use group area AF (activated using the lens buttons). I find it to be the fastest in low light and it can focus in situations where the light is very low whereas at some point dynamic area AF can pause to think for a bit (low light such as ISO 25600, f/2.8, 1/500s). If the movement is more casual and not terribly fast or unpredictable, I find D9 to perform the best under the most common circumstances. It is specific enough to use to focus on the eye of the subject but permits a little bit of wiggle in holding the AF point. I think D9 has given me the best percentages of in-focus shots in event photography with the D5.

Quote
3D Af in certain situations, like picking a person from the crowd with a fast prime.

Right, I agree this is a good application.

Quote
Auto AF if I want to have focus on the nearest object

Yes. I use Auto area for pairs and ice dance if I stop down to f/4 it is precise enough; if I shoot at f/2.8 or faster then I usually find that group area allows me to be more specific.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviewsould
Post by: bobfriedman on December 20, 2017, 18:24:59

The not so good: Well, sometimes the camera would hesitate to focus on the skater. When I lost my patience I lifted my thumb from AF-ON and pressed it again then it would focus. The shots that the camera would take were generally in focus and highly detailed. However, the hesitations happened every once in a while. Sometimes the camera would not respond to controls in image review (playback). It would take some time before it got ĒonlineĒ again. I was mostly using D25 and group-area AF. I think the AF hesitation mostly was in dynamic area mode.

was the camera in AF-S instead of AF-C  ?
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on December 20, 2017, 20:25:10
AF-C.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on December 21, 2017, 02:08:07
What I cannot understand is that an important product like the D850 plus accessoires is not available for nearly 4 months now. Any insight into what might be the problem?
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on December 21, 2017, 11:42:56
What I cannot understand is that an important product like the D850 plus accessoires is not available for nearly 4 months now. Any insight into what might be the problem?

It was the same with the D800. It's a sign of a successful product when demand continues to exceed expectations for some time.

Nikon brought out some products in 2016 which got a cold shower from the customers. I guess it's safe to plan the production of new products conservatively if you don't have a clear idea of whether it will be received favorably.  At least in the European market the D850 is priced higher than the D810 was; the estimation of how many people will tolerate the higher price level must be difficult.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on December 21, 2017, 15:03:06
What I cannot understand is that an important product like the D850 plus accessoires is not available for nearly 4 months now. Any insight into what might be the problem?

Commenting on NR to the post 'Hercules Rising', Thom Hogan suggested the lower yield with the D850 sensor is to blame'
to Quote: "Thom Hogan ē 5 days ago
Look, on a camera like the D8xx, the development is somewhat predictive. Since it would use the D5/D500 stuff, the basic body/controls would have had a full year to be realized by Jan 2017. That part's easy. Thus, mules of the new body would have been ready in late 2016, early 2017.

The sensor is the tougher part. You really need to lock that down at least six months prior to launch, as you need to verify it is what you think it is, and you need a three-month window to get production grade samples out and understand your yield.

Nikon appears to have wanted to launch the D850 in July 2017 with the 100th anniversary. Launch, as in announce in July, ship in August. That would have required the new sensor to be locked back around the start of the year. Which brings all these mentioned dates into play for prototypes.

It's clear that the D850 didn't launch as expected. I suspect that sensor yield has played a part in that delay and the lowish volume of units that have hit the stores. At least that's what I hear from my sources."

"Again, to my knowledge the D850 sensor is done on the old Toshiba fab now owned by Sony. Also, there are rumors that Sony warned Nikon about possible yield issues, though I've not gotten any details about why."
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on December 21, 2017, 16:24:25
Scarcity of the MB-D18 grip cannot be blamed on sensor yield. My guess is still that Nikon expected it not to sell well.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on December 21, 2017, 19:41:19
About the MB-D18 I heared that the production units were faulty and had to be redesigned and production relaunched.

I am happy I got my camera on day one and hope I will get my battery pack in January. I already have two EN EL 18 plus charger by Patona
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on December 21, 2017, 22:09:21
In Finland the grip was available immediately after launch but I skipped since I could not get the camera then. Now I have the camera but there is a few weeks of waiting period for the grip.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviewsould
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on December 22, 2017, 00:32:19
Well, I might not have noticed anything if I weren't used to the D5. Any new camera takes some getting used to before knowing how to operate it in an optimal way.

The image of the young skater in blue is dreamy.

Adorama just sent me an email that my D850 has shipped.  It's only 12 days since I ordered it.  The backlogs must be shrinking.  I had no expectation of getting it before the new year.  Which far flung place should I take it too?  Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Chris Dees on December 22, 2017, 08:53:59
I got mine in 10 days as well (this Tuesday) but no sign of the grip (I think I'm going after a 3rd party one with these prices).
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on December 22, 2017, 10:16:02
The image of the young skater in blue is dreamy.

Adorama just sent me an email that my D850 has shipped.  It's only 12 days since I ordered it.  The backlogs must be shrinking.  I had no expectation of getting it before the new year.  Which far flung place should I take it too?  Any suggestions?

the most significant bonus of the D850 is the color rendition at ISO64. Sheer unbelievable. I would go to Guancaste National Park in Costa Rica, I guess less that  two hours  flight from Houston. Take on the lichens with a tripod!!!
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on December 22, 2017, 14:58:53
the most significant bonus of the D850 is the color rendition at ISO64. Sheer unbelievable. I would go to Guancaste National Park in Costa Rica, I guess less that  two hours  flight from Houston. Take on the lichens with a tripod!!!

United quotes 3 hours, 45 minutes for the flight time.  Not a bad idea.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on December 22, 2017, 15:00:00
I got mine in 10 days as well (this Tuesday) but no sign of the grip (I think I'm going after a 3rd party one with these prices).

No plans for a grip here.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on December 22, 2017, 20:55:46
United quotes 3 hours, 45 minutes for the flight time.  Not a bad idea.

you can even meet Ann Shelbourne from New York State there


http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php/topic,6881.msg110919.html#msg110919

http://www.juancarlosvindasphoto.com/costa-rica/

six seats in the guided photo tour still available
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Wally on December 25, 2017, 11:50:59
Commenting on NR to the post 'Hercules Rising', Thom Hogan suggested the lower yield with the D850 sensor is to blame'
to Quote: "Thom Hogan ē 5 days ago
Look, on a camera like the D8xx, the development is somewhat predictive. Since it would use the D5/D500 stuff, the basic body/controls would have had a full year to be realized by Jan 2017. That part's easy. Thus, mules of the new body would have been ready in late 2016, early 2017.

The sensor is the tougher part. You really need to lock that down at least six months prior to launch, as you need to verify it is what you think it is, and you need a three-month window to get production grade samples out and understand your yield.

Nikon appears to have wanted to launch the D850 in July 2017 with the 100th anniversary. Launch, as in announce in July, ship in August. That would have required the new sensor to be locked back around the start of the year. Which brings all these mentioned dates into play for prototypes.

It's clear that the D850 didn't launch as expected. I suspect that sensor yield has played a part in that delay and the lowish volume of units that have hit the stores. At least that's what I hear from my sources."

"Again, to my knowledge the D850 sensor is done on the old Toshiba fab now owned by Sony. Also, there are rumors that Sony warned Nikon about possible yield issues, though I've not gotten any details about why."
I donít necessarily share Tom Hoganís assessment. Currently in Tokyo and the D850 is available in basically every mom and pop shop. Itís probably a combination of both yield and distribution but rather a supply chain issue. Why Nikon would do that instead of shipping units to markets w high demand is beyond me...
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on January 03, 2018, 04:46:41
My D850 arrived a few days ago.  Hopefully, I have discovered the important differences from my D800.  There is an extra button on the back, WTF?  Cold weather here has kept me indoors, so no results yet.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on January 03, 2018, 11:34:13
I got the battery compartment for my D850 today. I pre-ordered it in August!!!! Still no sign of the BL-5, so I ordered a cheap mock off till the real part arrives.

My brick and mortar is frustrated because many people order in the UK from VAT avoiding companies that are simply not policed by anyone
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: golunvolo on January 03, 2018, 18:23:09
Congratulations Frank. Let us know how it works
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on January 04, 2018, 13:48:20
Congratulations Frank. Let us know how it works

BL-5 arrived today. It is a third party BL-5 for 13 Euros including shipping. The original part is not available for purchase here.

9 Frames feel really, really fast and noisy.

Weight is 1427g with the D5-Battery and 1515g with 8 Eneloop Pro.

The D500 is 1294g with Eneloops and 1211g with D5 battery, a noticable difference to her fat brother.

All parts are interchangable with MB-D12, MB-D17 and MB-D18 or and other 8-Mignon-Nikon-Battery-Pack I might have forgotten.

I would sure recommend the Battery compartment for the D500, not so sure about the D850 yet. It makes the thing really, really heavy!

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: golunvolo on January 04, 2018, 15:01:36
I have found this on the net:

D700 with memory card and EN-EL3e battery + Battery grip with EN-EL3e = 1520g

D700 with memory card and EN-EL3e battery + Battery grip with 8x AA batteries = 1622g


  If it is  accurate the combo is heavy but back to a weight I feel helps in my personal experience. I will line to compare the noise. Still waiting and crossing my fingers for a silent body with full speed
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on January 04, 2018, 15:20:59

Quote
Weight is 1427g with the D5-Battery and 1515g with 8 Eneloop Pro.

Is that with the EN-EL15a removed from the main camera battery compartment, or with both batteries in place?

Quote
It makes the thing really, really heavy!

I would think you can get used to it; for me having the vertical grip when shooting hand held portrait orientation shots with larger lenses is definitely an improvement over having no vertical grip.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on January 04, 2018, 21:15:37
Ilkka: I did now remove the 15a and I notice the difference. Now it is bearable 1353g. With Eneloops and 15a it is way over the top
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on January 05, 2018, 14:52:00
Do you see any difference in AF performance when the grip and EN-EL18(a/b) are used? I would assume some of the louder sound is due to faster movement of the mirror, which would give some reduction in "dead time" between mirror starting to rise and shutter opening, which theoretically should lead to some improvement in autofocus performance when photographing a moving subject. Also the viewfinder should show a bit nicer view at equal fps (provided that the fast mirror movement also applies to slower fps rates). I realize this may not be your typical shooting scenario but it would be nice to hear your thoughts on the matter.

I am mainly interested in the grip for ergonomics when shooting verticals with telephoto lenses, and mostly 7fps is sufficient for those situations I might need to take a rapid series of shots.  I typically use the D5 at 8fps and not 12fps.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on January 05, 2018, 16:03:47
I did not test AF on fast moving subjects yet.

But, please someone verify this:

I feel IQ decreases with longer exposure. No problem with 1,2,3 seconds but for me exposures longer than 20 seconds seem "coarser" than 64ISO shots with shorter exp time Michael E.????

This is only my unscientific observation working with customer files.

Suggested test scenario: artificial scene with stable lighting, tripod,  series of ND Filters, exposure time 1/10s .... 100s
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on January 05, 2018, 16:31:02
I think it's normal that noise increases towards really long exposures. One reason is the sensor can get hotter over time, so you get more thermal noise. As the light is really dim the relative contribution of thermal and dark noise from the sensor becomes larger (compared to the desired signal). There may also be artifacts due to light leaks if the light that you are trying to record is very dim.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: John G on January 06, 2018, 10:11:42
On the Brad Hill Web Site, there is a list of Prime Performance Bursts, before a camera slow down initiates, using differing Image Area,
Bit Depth, and Frame Rates using the  D850 + MB-D18  Battery Pack attached.
A useful list for a D850 owner.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on January 06, 2018, 10:43:09
@JohnG: I remember we had a longer discussion of his findings in a dedicated thread. My conclusion was that even the shortest burst length was longer than the longest I might need for my purposes
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: John G on January 06, 2018, 12:26:55
As the MB-D18 is coming into the discussion in the D850 Previews, Commentary Topic, the achievable burst rates seemed a relevant subject to air.
Its great to know that this performance list identifies the burst rates that can be obtained are far beyond your personal requirements.
   
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on January 06, 2018, 17:35:54
Use of 12-bit lossless compressed to optimize burst depth seems a good option. As far as I know, 14-bit only improves the image quality at the lowest ISO settings and is wasteful of storage at medium to high ISO.

I am finding difficulty using the D850 with gloves on; my fingers donít fit comfortably around the grip and I end up supporting the weight with my fingertips only. I had a similar problem with the D750 but not with other Nikon DSLRs. I guess they mainly test with people with shorter fingers than mine and not so much in winter conditions.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Wally on January 07, 2018, 19:53:10
Use of 12-bit lossless compressed to optimize burst depth seems a good option. As far as I know, 14-bit only improves the image quality at the lowest ISO settings and is wasteful of storage at medium to high ISO.

Ilkka, is this a statement which applies to older bodies like the D800 too?
Thanks for any clarification!
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on January 07, 2018, 21:04:38
Ilkka, is this a statement which applies to older bodies like the D800 too?
Thanks for any clarification!

NŲ, The D800 is slow high resolution, the D850 is fast high resolution. She is the first to support speed increase with grip since the D700/D300 (3rd gen)
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on January 08, 2018, 04:02:20
NŲ, The D800 is slow high resolution, the D850 is fast high resolution. She is the first to support speed increase with grip since the D700/D300 (3rd gen)

Yes, but the D800 has a built in soft focus filter and the D850 doesn't.

Dave
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on January 08, 2018, 06:45:40
Yes, but the D800 has a built in soft focus filter and the D850 doesn't.

Dave

How exactly does the soft focus change burst speed and depth?
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on January 08, 2018, 08:42:26
How exactly does the soft focus change burst speed and depth?
Do not know "speed" and "depth."

DVD
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on January 08, 2018, 09:21:21
Do not know "speed" and "depth."

DVD

Speed means how many exposures per second

Depth means how many exposures the burst lasts

That is the topic you responded to, so you should know
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on January 08, 2018, 09:39:56
The D800 possesses neither "speed" nor "depth" as you explain it.  >:(

...but it has a built in soft focus filter.

Dave

[Sorry, I must remind myself to be more liberal in applying smileys. The D800 has an AA filter.  >:( or frowns.]
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on January 08, 2018, 14:17:35
Ilkka, is this a statement which applies to older bodies like the D800 too?
Thanks for any clarification!

To be honest I never tried that with the D800. In specs 12-bit compressed burst depth is 25 frames, lossless 14-bit is 17 frames, so not a huge difference.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on January 18, 2018, 17:35:18
I managed to find a store which had the MB-D18 in stock and purchased it.

I find the grip very well made and makes a solid joint with my D850. There is no flex whatsover between the two in my copies of camera and grip. I'm happy with the shape of the vertical grip though I find the main grip on the camera itself to be too narrow and deep for my fingers.

I read that there may be flex between the two but this was not experienced in my samples. Perhaps someone did not tighten the joint properly, or there could be some small changes that Nikon may have made to the grip or camera to make a better fit (which would explain the delay in availability, if true). It feels like one piece when mounted and tightened.

I can start to look at the possible effects of the EN-EL18a battery (I don't have the b) on the AF performance, if any. Shorter mirror blackout time should improve tracking.

Tried CH, release priority, flicker reduction off, 14-bit lossless, I got 28-29 shots at 9fps before slowing down (the menu guide says buffer should give 29). I used an EN-EL18a from my D5. However, my image was underexposed to get a 1/2000s shutter speed, and I believe the buffer may fill up faster when doing normal exposures. I will try it outdoors during the weekend.
I didn't find the sound too bad for a high fps sequence.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on January 20, 2018, 10:03:04
I managed to find a store which had the MB-D18 in stock and purchased it.

I find the grip very well made and makes a solid joint with my D850. There is no flex whatsover between the two in my copies of camera and grip. I'm happy with the shape of the vertical grip though I find the main grip on the camera itself to be too narrow and deep for my fingers.

I read that there may be flex between the two but this was not experienced in my samples. Perhaps someone did not tighten the joint properly, or there could be some small changes that Nikon may have made to the grip or camera to make a better fit (which would explain the delay in availability, if true). It feels like one piece when mounted and tightened.

I can start to look at the possible effects of the EN-EL18a battery (I don't have the b) on the AF performance, if any. Shorter mirror blackout time should improve tracking.

Tried CH, release priority, flicker reduction off, 14-bit lossless, I got 28-29 shots at 9fps before slowing down (the menu guide says buffer should give 29). I used an EN-EL18a from my D5. However, my image was underexposed to get a 1/2000s shutter speed, and I believe the buffer may fill up faster when doing normal exposures. I will try it outdoors during the weekend.
I didn't find the sound too bad for a high fps sequence.

Thanks for your first hand feedback, Ilkka. The Mieke grip on my D500 has worked fine since Nov 2016, but I am leery of clones on a D850. Main reservation is a 3rd party copy of the MB-D18 may not enable 9fps. Is the Bl-5 included with the Nikon MB-D18 ?

Here is some useful advice on 3rd party batteries - ie the DSTE to maintain 9fps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8pV4G_lP_o&feature=youtu.be

https://www.amazon.com/DSTE-EN-EL18-Replacement-Li-ion-Battery/dp/B00D6XNWJY/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1516439241&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=dste+en-el18&psc=1

kind regards

woody

PS there is much discussion in forums on these questions - here are 2
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60490011

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60400677

Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Fons Baerken on January 20, 2018, 11:06:15
The battery chamber lock has always been sensitive on nikons often breaking after some years of use.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on January 20, 2018, 11:31:23
The cover that holds the EN-EL18(a/b) has to be purchased separately. It fits the MB-D12 as well so I already had one from D810 days.

I have not managed to break any battery doors in my Nikons.

Ergonomically I find the addition of the grip a big improvement when using medium tele lenses and I am quite happy now, though I would have been happier to spend less money on the D810->D850 transition.

The larger battery increases the pitch and loudness of the camera but a snappy mirror is nice to have for shorter blackout. Qc still offers the soft and more subdued sound so I use that when there is need to be quieter.

AF on walking subjects seemed to work well and I felt it was very similar to use of the D5. I have not yet assessed accuracy.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on January 20, 2018, 15:02:24
Yes, my MB-D18 also fits like a custom made glove. For Four hundred forty Euros I expect no less. But: my gripped D500 is still my favourite when it comes to ergonomics. The gripped D850 is just too big for my taste. This might also be due to the current pain in my joints...

She is also extremely heavy with lenses like the 1.4/105G it is pain.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on January 20, 2018, 16:24:57
Do you need 9 fps with a 105/1.4? I'd think the battery grip would be most useful with a large and heavy super telephoto that's tripod mounted.

When I think of heavy I think of a Linhof Technika IV or V, also a Nikon F2As with MD-2 and MB-1.

Dave
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Ilkka Nissilš on January 20, 2018, 16:44:14
Why not? I find that action looks more dramatic and 3D from a close distance. Also for indoor sports you may find f/1.4 useful.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on January 21, 2018, 02:12:22
Why not? I find that action looks more dramatic and 3D from a close distance. Also for indoor sports you may find f/1.4 useful.

Good point...

In that case exercise and build up endurance so a D850 with power grip and 105/1.4 doesn't feel that heavy. :)

I'm sure it can be done.

Dave 

---

I don't own a D850, grip and 105/1.4 but I do own an F5 and 180/2.8 ED AIS. The 105/1.4 weighs 985g v. 180/2.8 ED weighs 800g. That's 185g, that's not going to break your back or even your wrist. I'll have to check the weight of the D850 w/ grip and battery (1065g) and the F5 (1210g). I still need to find the weight of 8x Energizer L91 batteries.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on January 21, 2018, 13:25:09
The D850 with 1.4/105 ist great for Indoor Sports, esp horses

The weight of the combo with grip and D5-Battery is roughly 2200 gramm

The joint pain has nothing to do with training. It is a biochemical reaction towards medication I had to take for a while
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: David H. Hartman on January 21, 2018, 14:43:49
The joint pain has nothing to do with training. It is a biochemical reaction towards medication I had to take for a while

I'm very sorry to hear that. I hope the problem will reverse and soon. I hope healing will be complete.

Dave
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Kenneth Rich on January 21, 2018, 17:17:52
" The gripped D850 is just too big for my taste," he said.  Frank, go back to your Df, or go out and buy one, and use it until your hands are healed. ;)
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on January 21, 2018, 21:14:17
I'm very sorry to hear that. I hope the problem will reverse and soon. I hope healing will be complete.

Dave

Yea. I am off the medication, but some of the side effects only gradually wear off over time. For a while the pain was so bad that I could only walk, not run, not jog. Even the walking was painful. I do my strict diet and take some additives to heal. A long way
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Tejpor on January 27, 2018, 15:30:40
To the experienced D850 shooters... has anybody tried the silent liveview mode? Is it indeed possible to do hour-long, gapless interval exposures similar to the specialized D810A?

I'm asking beacuse almost all earlier bodies need some time between exposures e.g. beacuse of some processing and possibly mirror movement: 30s exposures need ~33s.

This new feature would be most welcome for startrails...
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on January 28, 2018, 13:04:12
To the experienced D850 shooters... has anybody tried the silent liveview mode? Is it indeed possible to do hour-long, gapless interval exposures similar to the specialized D810A?

I'm asking beacuse almost all earlier bodies need some time between exposures e.g. beacuse of some processing and possibly mirror movement: 30s exposures need ~33s.

This new feature would be most welcome for startrails...
I have only used silent mode for up to a ~15sec on landscapes with MirrorUP, so no long exposures. But I have read that the D850 shutter will remain open indefinitely, and see the info on Multiple Exposures in the Menu Guide (pdf). Works fine once one learns by trial and error which combination of buttons (Info, OK etc) set these functions including the dynamic histogram. IME the D850 on a solid tripod performs flawlessly for shake-prone exposures using silent shutter with touchscreen enabled - trigger the camera with a v gentle finger touch.

This recent comparative review with current FX Nikons for astrophotography mentions "Thirty-minute exposures at native ISO without enabling LENR were clean as a whistle. Native ISO 64 exposures yielded truly extraordinary image quality in both natural and artificial light, but higher ISO images were inconsistent."
https://petapixel.com/2018/01/26/nikon-night-photography-showdown-d850-vs-d750-d810-d5/
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: MILLIREHM on January 28, 2018, 21:20:17
I haven't been able to gain any experience because D850 simply are not available in numbers here in Austria (and probably not only here). My dealer told me there are a lot of complaints and a long waiting list and a few samples he got eventually. Not a great leap forward for Nikon for offering a camera of that potential but not being able to distribute D850 bodies in numbers meeting the demand. Now it is months after it had been announced.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on January 28, 2018, 23:54:20
Wolfgang: I preordered it and got it. If you cannot get it in Austria you can get it somewhere in Europe by mail order if you really want it.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on January 28, 2018, 23:55:14
To the experienced D850 shooters... has anybody tried the silent liveview mode?


I use it all the time but only for series of max 10 Pictures
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on January 29, 2018, 10:32:52
To the experienced D850 shooters... has anybody tried the silent liveview mode? Is it indeed possible to do hour-long, gapless interval exposures similar to the specialized D810A?

I'm asking beacuse almost all earlier bodies need some time between exposures e.g. beacuse of some processing and possibly mirror movement: 30s exposures need ~33s.

This new feature would be most welcome for startrails...

have you seen this review? https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-d850/2

"7) Exposures Longer than 30 Seconds
Unfortunately, Nikon did not add all the custom exposure times that are available on the Nikon D810A, so we still have exactly the same limitations as the Nikon D810. While you donít need a remote shutter release to do longer than 30 seconds of exposure time (since you can still use the Time ďĖĒ (double dash) setting in Manual Mode in order to capture long exposures), if you do not want to touch the camera during long exposures, you have no other option other than connecting a remote shutter release. Fortunately, when doing very long exposures, touching the camera to stop the exposure is not that big of a deal and it wonít mess up your shot due to camera shake. For this reason, I rarely ever take a remote camera shutter release with me now when shooting with the D810 and the same applies to the D850. However, I still wish Nikon added the same long exposure mode options to the D850, or let the user customize the length of exposure via the camera menu. Seems like an easy feature to implement, something Nikon could do through a firmware update. Sadly, given the history of Nikon, I seriously doubt that the company will add any new features to the camera via such firmware updates."
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Tejpor on January 29, 2018, 11:26:31
Thank you all for the replies! Lot of useful info. This is getting closer, but let me further clarify my issue: say I would like to take a series of 30sec shots. In previous Nikons, because of mirror movement and other processing, there is a small delay between each 30s shot (2-3 sec).

When photographing startrails or cityscapes during night, this shows up: there are ugly gaps every 30 seconds.

I'm asking, whether the new D850 with its all-electronic shutter is there a straightforward way to set up the shooting of such timed sequences: e.g. 30 sec exposures - but every exposure begins where the previous ended, with no blackout.

EDIT: of course, these timed shots only make sense if this sequence can be kept up for hours...
EDIT 2: the smaller exposures cannot be substituted with one, lengthy exposure: 100x30s is not the same as 1x3000s. Reasons are "astronomical" :)
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Seapy on January 29, 2018, 11:50:29
Bear in mind, the '30 second' exposure may be longer...

I did several '30 second' exposures of my clock which has a second hand, with my D3, the second hand covered 32 seconds.  I set the intervalometer to 35 seconds minimum for star trails etc. to give the camera time to process and save the image.  Have never seen guidance on this.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on January 29, 2018, 12:50:54
Since I got the Firmware 1.01 I experience flaws in the White Balance and sometimes I can not get into the menu, while I can still take photos. Strange.

I also experience a better high ISO performance, comparable or better than the D500.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: chambeshi on January 29, 2018, 14:16:02
Since I got the Firmware 1.01 I experience flaws in the White Balance and sometimes I can not get into the menu, while I can still take photos. Strange.

I also experience a better high ISO performance, comparable or better than the D500.

Thanks for this Frank
Interesting and very important item of Int! I recently upgraded my D850, so will monitor behaviour and IQ

best woody
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on January 29, 2018, 17:29:46
Thanks for this Frank
Interesting and very important item of Int! I recently upgraded my D850, so will monitor behaviour and IQ
best woody

As there are so few of us who actually use the camera on a day-to-day-basis I guess feedback rates are also low. So I am very interested in your observation.

PS: I am still very happy with the camera, but switched from "Standard" (first ooc) to "Automatic / warm tone" (second ooc).
Yes, other light direction but same colors, only on the other shots of her look so stressed out.
Both photos are bad, it is only to demonstrate the WB issue...
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Tejpor on January 29, 2018, 19:16:42
Exactly that is the issue!!

Now, e.g. the astronomy tailored D810A reportedly does not have this timing issue.
I'm curious what can one expect from the even more modern and electronic D850.

In my experience 33s is fine with modern cameras. At 32s intervals random skippings may occur.


Bear in mind, the '30 second' exposure may be longer...

I did several '30 second' exposures of my clock which has a second hand, with my D3, the second hand covered 32 seconds.  I set the intervalometer to 35 seconds minimum for star trails etc. to give the camera time to process and save the image.  Have never seen guidance on this.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Dlighter on January 31, 2018, 17:06:25
@ Tejpor

Just saw this. Don't know exactly, if this is the point, but if you go to Photo Shooting Menu and set the Long Time Exposure NR to Off than you'll have no delay.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Tejpor on January 31, 2018, 18:12:44
Thank you for the reply. I forgot to add that with LENR off, the delay is still present during 30s exposures (32-33s). With LENR it would be worse, 60s-something...

@ Tejpor

Just saw this. Don't know exactly, if this is the point, but if you go to Photo Shooting Menu and set the Long Time Exposure NR to Off than you'll have no delay.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on January 31, 2018, 20:40:26
I totally love this camera.

Please refer to the* other*life
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on February 02, 2018, 23:59:55
After testing all my lenses on this amazing camera, the 1.8/85G is the one that sure smokes them all.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on February 03, 2018, 09:11:14
power of 46MP!

1 original frame as shot

2 100%
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: golunvolo on February 03, 2018, 11:14:00
Beautiful portrait of the horse.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on February 03, 2018, 16:34:40
Beautiful portrait of the horse.

Wonderful animal!
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on February 03, 2018, 22:27:26
The 1.8/85G is the perfect companion.

"Wolkenschale"
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: ColinM on February 04, 2018, 20:54:59
Lovely horse portrait Frank.
I was trying to work out if there was some subtle movement on its neck by the bridle, or if that's just the pattern in its coat.

And as for the cropped dude, I think it might also work well to include his legs. There's something confident and casually assured about his stance.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Michael Anderson on February 06, 2018, 19:20:09
I have just bought a D850 in the UK, i currently use PE14 and despite downloading Adobe dng converter 9.12.1 i am unable to open the raw file. Do i therefore have to upgrade to ?PE 2018 to be able to open the file?

Any help would be much appreciated.
Title: Re: Nikon D850 previews, commentary - first reviews
Post by: Frank Fremerey on February 06, 2018, 20:19:15
I have just bought a D850 in the UK, i currently use PE14 and despite downloading Adobe dng converter 9.12.1 i am unable to open the raw file. Do i therefore have to upgrade to ?PE 2018 to be able to open the file?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Open the RAW in Nikon NX-D and in it do "open with..." anything