NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Processing & Publication => Topic started by: elsa hoffmann on April 21, 2017, 13:47:02
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I am editing a pic for printing - LARGE - 3m x 1m - print directly onto dibond® with a brushed aluminium finish (metal print)
Question - has anyone have specific experience with this kind of printing?
It appears that one has to do an exessive amount of contrast and perhaps sharpening as this medium doesn't fancy mid tones too much.
I got my first test prints - and the mid tones are quite flat. (Image 1)
2nd image - In this image I added a LOT of contrast
any comments please?
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Following with interest - would like to do smaller size same type prints in the 60x90 cm area or so.
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I cannot say anithing technical in this area. But apparently the detail of the clouds in the second image are lost. Does it look like that only on my (uncalibrated) monitor? Is there any legitimate reason for the treatment?
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You are right - but thats kind of the idea. Anything white will not be printed - meaning that area the brushed aluminium will be the "white"
As soon as you add detail - or colour - it prints - and comes thru as a lighter tone - and becomes flat. The Metal is "shiny" (albeit brushed) whish gives it a 3D look. mid tones doesnt add anything to the printing - according to my experience and what I got back on my test prints. Hence my post- I think only someone who has had exact experience with this will fully understand the implications of the process - and I cant keep printing test prints forever as it costs a LOT. I am planning on doing 2 more test prints with the more contrasty image. But since I have little experience - I am a bit in the dark also
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Please post the results of the new samples. What I see currently is that image number 2 looks like some of the highlights are blown, and some of the shadow detail has been lost. Now, let me qualify that with the admission that I don't know squat about metal printing, but, you asked for opinions using those 2 images, so that's all I have to base comments on.
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Printing is a highly qualified trade.
I hate the fact that the place from where you print doesn't give you any insights. Shouldn't they know best?
I had the exact same problems when I printed on canvas and on plexiglass! Whatever you see on your screen usually has nothing to do with the printed result.
How come the printing shop is not liable for the result that they produce? Why is it that you need to pay for the testing? You should show them your photo on your screen and then challenge them to produce the same result on which ever medium :)
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Printing is a highly qualified trade.
I hate the fact that the place from where you print doesn't give you any insights. Shouldn't they know best?
I had the exact same problems when I printed on canvas and on plexiglass! Whatever you see on your screen usually has nothing to do with the printed result.
How come the printing shop is not liable for the result that they produce? Why is it that you need to pay for the testing? You should show them your photo on your screen and then challenge them to produce the same result on which ever medium :)
Well, matching prints to a display is not child's play, and that's if you're printing on paper where profiles are available for most papers. You can still have a profile made, but it's not inexpensive, and again that's with paper. I believe that Andrew Rodney, The Digital Dog, charges $100 per profile for papers. There used to be Kathy's Profiles ($60) here in the USA, but the last I heard she was no longer in business, and that was several years ago.
When you start printing on other media then all bets are off, unless you want to fund any necessary profiling.
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unless you have seen the test prints to be able to match it with my image - it is impossible to see the result. Posting the test prints here wont work either as it is on brushed aluminium - impossible to accurately reproduce here. What I have seen on the test prints - my white are not white enough - and when printed - it doesnt give detail - it gives a flat tone - due to the metal. The clouds are too whispy to give detail on metal. The blown highlights shows up quite nicely because it is on brushed aluminium. I need comments from someone who has in fact done this. the print shop will a test print for me - in fact that have done 2 already - and will do 2 more - which I wont pay for if I do proceed with printing. But I don't expect them to keep doing unlimited tests prints for me. It costs them money too. The situation is quite challenging as well because it is such a large print. smaller prints are totally different and prints differently. DPI is also different on metal. Adding to that - the test prints they have available in the shop is of buildings - and bridges - totally different to a mountain and whispy clouds
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Seems to me that a profile comes in. Their white ink is reacting to the aluminum differently than other ink colors? In the wispy areas is the metal showing through the ink?
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Elsa, thanks for the explanation. Then it is tricky to judge the appropriate image on screen, just as you say. But I want to see the final print!
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Sorry I thought you knew CS - it's a black and white image. White doesnt print. Where there should be white ink - its brushed aluminium (textured) a light shade (whispy cloud) prints a faint grey - making it flat. hence the pushed blacks and whites
Akira - you and me both - it's a huge assignment - I want to get it as best I can
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An amateurish theoretical approach: (thinking in RGB-colors): Your brightest white on the Al is not a 255,255,255 but perhaps a mere 160,160,160.
So you have to optimise the picture to that reduced “dynamic grey space”. I think increasing contrast on your screen (which shows almost all the way from 0,0,0 to 255,255,255 then is the wrong way? (Instead, optimise the picture to a max white level of 160,160,160 or to whatever grey level the Al surface has) Or would this be the task of a printer profile?
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Alaun - you get the idea - questions.... and then more questions...
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Sorry I thought you knew CS - it's a black and white image. White doesnt print. Where there should be white ink - its brushed aluminium (textured) a light shade (whispy cloud) prints a faint grey - making it flat. hence the pushed blacks and whites
Akira - you and me both - it's a huge assignment - I want to get it as best I can
Thanks for the explanation Elsa, I did not understand.
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I have had a print made on aluminium once. It was a picture of a high-rise building with metal facade, so the picture matched the material. The result is quite good.
I ordered from whitewall (do you have them in SA?). They have ICC-profiles for the aluminium prints. I was able to soft-proof in Photoshop on my Eizo monitor. Applying the profile made a big difference, but I was able to correct for the different contrast. When I got the print, it was exactly as expected.
Regarding other printing stuff, there are many printers that don't even support profiling. Or so it seems. See the recent thread of mine in this board.
I cannot say that I would recommend the aluminium print for this kind of picture. You want bright whites, which is best done on paper. But I guess if the client demands an aluminium print, try to download the ICC profile from whitewall and see whether it matches what you see in your test prints:
https://static.whitewall.com/ICC/WhiteWall_ICC_Direct_Print_Dibond_Brushed.icc (https://static.whitewall.com/ICC/WhiteWall_ICC_Direct_Print_Dibond_Brushed.icc)
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I wonder how the final print is made? Is there any special emulsion applied on the brushed aluminium? Or the aluminium will be etched? Or is it still a kind of ink jet print?
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The ink is applied and then hardened using UV light. I don't know the exact details. The prints are very durable and waterproof.
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I should add the recommended settings for soft-proofing with the linked ICC profile:
Rendering intent: Relative colorimetric, black point compensation on
Simulate paper color: Off
Preserve RGB numbers: Off
Set the background in Photoshop to middle gray
Monitor brightness: 80-90 cd/m²
Color temperature: 6500° Kelvin
Gamma 2,2
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Is there such a thing as 'white ink' in photo inkjet printing?
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Thank you Simone - much appreciated. I will be sitting with the printer this week.
Agreed that architecture seems very suitable for metal prints.
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First thing I always do, is importing the relevant ICC Profile from the printer / finisher, and work from this profile (screen proofing) to optimise the output file.
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Mr Floyd - I am hoping to do that this week.
All retouching done - just now to get it print ready
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OK Elsa, but I noticed that simsurace already answered the question. I'm working with White Wall Berlin and they provide an ICC profile for every product they have.
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Mr Floyd - you would be surprised to find how many of the printing companies have staff that doesn't have a clue as to what a printer profile is.
We simply don't have the amount of feet many other countries have - so it's a struggle at times to find people who know more than you (me) do. And I don't know half as much about printing as I would like to.
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Printing is very often "unknown territory", also for many photographers. And it's not easy matter. 😊
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Thanks for understanding. I feel like a royal idiot when it comes to printing at the best of times.
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The ink is applied and then hardened using UV light. I don't know the exact details. The prints are very durable and waterproof.
Simone, thanks for the explanation. Perhaps the ink is some sort of dyed UV cure plastic?
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Elsa,
Adding contrast as in the "Brightness and Contrast" is not going to work. Brightness and Contrast are "lousy" and throw out data. A curve is needed as in "Levels and Curves" as the brightest and darkest values you want in the print need to be saved.
When you use "Contrast" it will push values out the top leaving larger pure white areas. The most you want are tiny pure white areas such as specular highlights. Usually you want a hint of detail in the darkest parts of a print but "Contrast" will push this hint of detail out the bottom so you end up with large areas of pure black. "Contrast" causes clipping in both the highlights and shadows unless the original image was quite flat.
This might be the suspect:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BTF1fD9BKiE/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/BTF1fD9BKiE/)
http://russellbrown.com/ (http://russellbrown.com/)
...who said "Brightness and Contrast" was included in Photoshop for amateurs.
Instead of using brightness and contrast use "Levels and Curves." These are sometimes separate and sometimes combined depending on the program in use. The object is to keep generally keep the high and low points and modify the contrast in between. You generally want good mid tone contrast. A straight line from dark to light give a very flat, chalk and soot appearance.
Now wild guessing: I'm thinking you are having trouble with highlight contrast so perhaps it should be steep. You might draw down the 1/4 tone with one point in curves thus compressing the shadow contrast. The contrast will build giving useful contrast in the mid tones and even more in the highlights.
Printing profiles: I think this is something like matching a negative to a sheet of printing paper. I'm pretty sure they are applying a curve to image to fit it on the printing media in an attractive way.
A profile and soft proofing should take care of a lot of trial and error. It sounds like a printing profile is like the quest for the Holy Grail.
Best,
Dave Hartman
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An advantage with soft proofing with e.g. Lr, is that you can ascertain what is within the gamut of the print medium, and adjust accordingly.
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David - I use curves to add contrast (sometimes Levels) but never the Brightness and Contrast adjustment.
I have been re-thinking the editing somewhat. (Been sleeping on it as we say) and I think my second edit (with extra contrast) is overdone. I have placed the test prints in different places (light-wise) and looking at it from different distances - and it actually isnt bad at all.
I wont touch a re-edit till I sit with the printer. Except THAT is on hold since a Crane Truck decided to make it's acquaintance with my vehicle this afternoon. And since it's bigger than my vehicle... The hook when right thru my back window.
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David, if I understand correctly the idea here is to purposefully blow the highlights so that nothing is printed in that area of the picture and the metal shows through. The brushed aluminum surface becomes the highlights adding its own effect. If you were to leave the highlights under the 255 white point (or 250 or where ever the cutoff point for printing is) then the brushed aluminum will be completely printed over and the effect of printing on aluminum in the first place would be diminished.
I could see strong graphic images that are well suited to high contrast working best in this style of printing. The sky detail in your shot Elsa has very delicate highlight detail transitions and once lost the sky is much less interesting. Blowing the highlights in the sky for the sake of the print could be to the detriment of the overall image. The city scene below however I think lends itself to high contrast where there are sharp lines dividing the shadows and highlights. What if you were to keep detail in the sky and mountain and only do the high contrast effect in the city/buildings below?
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charlie - blowing the highlights is needed to get the clear metal coming thru - it is what gives the print that special 3D look. As said - it doesnt like mid tones too much - as something like 200 200 200 puts down a thin layer of ink which takes the luster of the metal away. Remember the metal is highly textured - so it looks like there is detail there. I am very happy with the blown whites - I need to reduce my blacks on the mountain I think. Still sleeping on it.
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Elsa,
Perhaps your shop has a print profile for the aluminum medium ?
I have printed only a few times, because the experience was disappointing, a printer came to give a talk to the photo club and offered the service to:
1. calibrate your working screen (although I have a spyder and I do my own calibration every 4 weeks)
2. install the proper printer profiles so you can proof the images before sending them to the printer
During the talk it was also explained the advantages and limitations of different mediums
I have not printed on any fancy medium like canvas or aluminum , but what I have sent to them , looks exactly as I wanted it
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Armando - funny you should say that - I have been meaning to get Orms (our B&H) to arrange a advance talk on printing.
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And, no doubt, enjoy their superb coffee :D
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And, no doubt, enjoy their superb coffee :D
no question about that.
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I assume that oxidation is a non-issue with the aluminum, and if so, how is that prevented?
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I assume that oxidation is a non-issue with the aluminum, and if so, how is that prevented?
Aluminium will lose its shininess over time. So, some sort of protection should be necessary.
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Aluminium will lose its shininess over time. So, some sort of protection should be necessary.
Indeed, and sometimes that time is pretty short. I'm guessing that the oxidation issue has been overcome with these prints. but I don't know how. No experience here with printing on aluminum, but I have plenty of experience with polished aluminum, although, that was some years ago, and I have not kept pace with it.
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Carl, as explained by Simone, the ink appears to be of UV cure type and durable. So, it can be an effective protection.
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Carl, as explained by Simone, the ink appears to be of UV cure type and durable. So, it can be an effective protection.
Okay, but Elsa said that there was no ink where white would be in an image, so that's the area where I was wondering about oxidation.
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As I understand it, the print is actually on a polymer film which gets bonded to the metal. As such it likely prevents the aluminum from oxidizing.
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As I understand it, the print is actually on a polymer film which gets bonded to the metal. As such it likely prevents the aluminum from oxidizing.
That makes sense, thanks Jack.
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I see. Thanks, Jack, for the additional info. Even with the UV cure ink, there would be some way for the protective coating.
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I went down to my local dealer today, and stopped by the Lab while I was there. The Lab guys told me that they don't do printing on metal, beyond using metallic papers. So much for my effort to see an example. I was surprised that they din't do it, because this it is the local lab preferred by pros, but they said that it's not for everyone, as it doesn't always turn out the way people expect.
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I skimmed this thread quickly so apologies if I missed anything. Basically you are printing black on brushed aluminium, so the image is not "black and white", it's "black and aluminium". That gives you the reduced range of tones, and printing any light detail in the cloud has to be in black ink, which covers the aluminium and results in a flat image.
Could you consider printing black and white on aluminium? Of course the image will be different, no brushed aluminium will show because any white parts will be white ink. Is that an option? That would at least give you a wider range of tones to play with...
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Roland - well explained.
The print is in question as the client is moaning over the costs and I am not budging on my price.
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I went down to my local dealer today, and stopped by the Lab while I was there. The Lab guys told me that they don't do printing on metal, beyond using metallic papers. So much for my effort to see an example. I was surprised that they din't do it, because this it is the local lab preferred by pros, but they said that it's not for everyone, as it doesn't always turn out the way people expect.
Carl - thanks for taking the time to check. I believe it's a relatively new medium to print on - and believe me - nothing beats the right print on metal - it's in another class altogether.
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OK, so no white ink.
You are currently aiming for a photo-realistic print. Given the limitations of the medium you might consider a more "graphical" rendering:
Maybe by posterizing the image (using only a small number of different tones)
Or by using halftone like black and white pictures in newspapers. I'm sure I have seen this used effectively on metal prints - light detail such as the wispy clouds would be rendered as very small discrete dots so you still get the aluminium showing through. Viewed from a distance the dots are too small to see so you still get a photo-realistic image.
Hope that helps.
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Roland - well explained.
The print is in question as the client is moaning over the costs and I am not budging on my price.
Here's a 20, or so, minute video on metal printing that I thought had a lot of good info. I knew that I didn't know much about metal printing, but I didn't know how much I didn't know until I watched this video. The difference in quality from various printing sources was eye opening.
https://www.bayphoto.com/wall-displays/metalprints/
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from what I could see the guy was talking about printing on gloss or mat metal. (video bombed out 2.3 thru) And the stuff they show is colour. Mine is a B&W image. My print shop prints Di-bond on brushed Aluminium. That makes a really really big difference - as the brushed effects gives texture. As you know - white falls away and shows the brushed Aluminium effect. I have looked at a couple of videos now - and not a single one is able to show the true effect on video. By it's nature it is not suitable for being filmed.
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from what I could see the guy was talking about printing on gloss or mat metal. (video bombed out 2.3 thru) And the stuff they show is colour. Mine is a B&W image. My print shop prints Di-bond on brushed Aluminium. That makes a really really big difference - as the brushed effects gives texture. As you know - white falls away and shows the brushed Aluminium effect. I have looked at a couple of videos now - and not a single one is able to show the true effect on video. By it's nature it is not suitable for being filmed.
I know that video didn't address your particular B&W image process, but, it did show that there's a night and day difference in finished quality between aluminum print sources. it also mentioned that they have 5 different choices for the finish on the metal itself.
Anyway, I posted the link to that video to show more about metal printing in general than as remedy for your image efforts. Didn't mean to hijack the thread, it just seemed to me that it fit in.
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Carl - you didn't hijack the thread at all - and I am quite pleased you posted the link - as I then got on to other links as well. Hoping to find my process - only to see that I couldn't - well not that I could find anyway. It is disappointing that one cant' really see the final effect as I really would have liked you to see it. I was really impressed with the sample they had up on their wall in the print room. Wish I could share that - showign what I saw.
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Just to clarify:
There are many different products of prints on metal that you can buy.
- Direct printing on Alu Dibond
- Direct printing on brushed aluminium
- Mounting a paper print to aluminium
- Metalprint
The last seems to be a fairly new dye sublimation technique (I think it wasn't available when I ordered my print, but I may simply not remember). There is a coating on the aluminium. The photo is first printed on a transfer paper which is laid onto the coated aluminium (I think the coating is polyester). Then heat is applied. EDIT: after reading some more, it seems to be a fairly old technique actually, much older than inkjet printing.
Metalprint and direct printing on brushed aluminium do show the metal texture in the highlight areas. The others show white, either because of the paper or a white base layer.
On Whitewall there are some videos showing a glimpse of the process. Unfortunately, they are in German. But you can see some stuff.
Direct printing on alu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9aqc2l9nBk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9aqc2l9nBk)
Direct printing on brushed alu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFdgiWfUCVk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFdgiWfUCVk)
Paper on alu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9aqc2l9nBk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9aqc2l9nBk)
Metalprint: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGMdbp73PWs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGMdbp73PWs)
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Thanks, Simone, very helpful.
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A caution regarding mounting a paper print directly on unfinished aluminum. I mounted two fiber base prints using a water based adhesive. All went well for a couple of decades in dry Southern California homes but finally the aluminum blistered a bit so there are little bumps distributed across the prints. The aluminum is 6061 T6 and untreated. It was really slick if only it had lasted. I squeegeed the wet print directly on the aluminum and let them dry in place.
Dave Hartman
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Thanks Simone.
Dave - I assume you wont have those reprinted then?
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Some more info on DiBond -
Half the weight of aluminium, Dibond® is a rigid, durable, aluminium-composite material consisting of two pre-painted sheets of 3 mm aluminium bonded to a solid plastic core. It is an excellent replacement for aluminium, MDF (medium-density fibreboard), plywood, thick gauge plastics and some laminated fluted/solid core sheets.
The above is one of the only methods to achieve a completely flat finish in framing.
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Thanks Simone.
Dave - I assume you wont have those reprinted then?
I did the printing decades ago. l had a business shooting PR and I also printed other PR photographer's negatives. I did the color printing for one high school's year book as the pints had to be printed exact size for paste up. I printed the the color prints 3mm over size and the year book teacher cut them off with a drafting triangle and X-acto knife. I was a semi professional photographer as I made less shooting than printing. The business died when color web printing replaced B&W printing for charities and hospitals. I tried to buy a color scanner and move to supply digital page layout. At that time the work flow was to scan color negatives and do the layout in Page Maker or Venture Publisher.
I still have a full wet darkroom but it lacks sewer line as I had to cut the improvised one on the outside of the house. I'd like to shoot a little B&W in 35mm and 4x5 but I'll have to get brave and cut the concrete floor of my garage to do a proper job of installing a sewer line.
Anyway I've never reprinted those negatives.
Dave Hartman
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The “metal prints” (White Wall, Bayfoto) use a special feature of aluminium: Al is always covered with an Al-oxide layer.
They do not print onto the surface but into the surface. They use anodised aluminium plates and they bring the color into the anodised layer. Actually the anodising process is not finished, when they do the printing. The color is supplied via the print on paper (as in the above referenced video by CS) or they use ink jet printers to directly print on/into the surface.
Anodizing is a kind of electrolytic process, where you increase/grow the layer of Al-oxide, which is always on top of any aluminium surface. After the electrolytic part of the process, this Al-oxide layer (actually a Al-hydroxide-layer) is not yet very dense but a kind of porous. They print (or sublimate) the color into this oxide layer. Then there is a final step (kind of cooking in water) where this surface layer is densed/hardened, you get an almost corundum like Al-oxide layer with the picture inside. This layer is far more stable (time, UV, scratching) than any lacquer. E.g. this printing process is used to make signs, which are resistant against abuse in public areas. This process is a kind of further development of what you might know as coloured anodized aluminium (or Eloxal).
I looked for a reference for the printing and prints, it seems the prints are called “sub-anodizing prints”.
http://www.directcolorsystems.com/applications/anodized-aluminum-printing/
By the way, he Dibond plates use 0.3mm Al-sheets (not 3mm), which are made from rolled 5005 alloy (AlMg1) in H44 (heat treating condition).
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Thanks Alaun - you and especially Carl has been very helpful and provided interesting links.
I wonder how well our local process compares to the ones in your and Carl's links.
The fact that all AL prints are not equal - seems to be a mine field.
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Thanks Alaun - you and especially Carl has been very helpful and provided interesting links.
I wonder how well our local process compares to the ones in your and Carl's links.
The fact that all AL prints are not equal - seems to be a mine field.
Yes, minefield indeed. My lab gave me 4X6 metallic print just so i could see what they look like.
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Yes, minefield indeed. My lab gave me 4X6 metallic print just so i could see what they look like.
and??
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and??
It was different, and I could see where some images would look very nice printed that way. But it wasn't printed on metal.
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was it metalic paper?
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was it metalic paper?
Kodak metallic paper. I mean looking at the printed side it looks like what you would expect a print on metal to look like. But turn it over and it looks like the backside of photo paper, and there's no metallic feel to it. It has a high gloss finish, and a 1/16th" border.
It's a promotional print with the name (Tempe Camera Imaging Center) and contact info for my lab on the lower left, and on the lower right is www.http://www.lightcatchersstudios.com, and their contact info. Light Catchers is here in the Phoenix area, and their website is affiliated with https://www.smugmug.com.
All of this stuff might be old hat to many folks here, but it was my first look at a metallic print. I didn't think that I've been living in a cave, but maybe I have. :-\
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it is not old hat for me - I have seen metallic prints, but they are very expensive and not normally done here because of that. I have considered doing metallic paper prints tho- I think they will be very suitable for my B&W nudes
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it is not old hat for me - I have seen metallic prints, but they are very expensive and not normally done here because of that. I have considered doing metallic paper prints tho- I think they will be very suitable for my B&W nudes
Expensive, okay, they sure aren't cheap. OTOH, as we saw in the Bay Photo video, when you consider printing, framing/mounting costs to get a standard print on the wall, the difference in investment costs between the standard and metal versions is not so much.
I took one of my images to my lab to have them print and frame it, and by the time I was done I was in it for over $100, and this was a 9X17 size. Oh, they did a good job, but it was not inexpensive. To be fair, I have not inquired about how much it would cost to do it on metal. But, that thought lingers. ;)
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One thing to consider - you dont have to frame a metal print. It comes with a hanging frame at the back (costs a bit extra though) and in my experience - framing can be very expensive
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One thing to consider - you dont have to frame a metal print. It comes with a hanging frame at the back (costs a bit extra though) and in my experience - framing can be very expensive
That was more or less my point as to why the finished costs between metal and paper are closer than many think.
My wife does oil painting, and we've been down the framing costs road. Yikes! One of her tricks is to shop thrift stores and yard sales for used frames, and she has found some genuine bargains with used frames, most often they're filled with something that is easily removed. While not all are suitable, some are really useful.
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Well some photographers own their own professional printing studios and I know of a few who also do their own framing. This wont work for me thought - but each to his own. I have printed on canvass as that saves framing, and I have also used recycled frames. But I don't print often - my clients have their own images printed. I do a number of coffee table books though.
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I should have added that our son-in-law does water colors, many times I've heard him complain about people that want to hang one of his paintings in a POS (an obviously cheap) frame. It really gets his hackles up.
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Well lets face it - we think our images / art is stunning - so why would we be happy skimping on the frame. But we do
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Well lets face it - we think our images / art is stunning - so why would we be happy skimping on the frame. But we do
I should be the first to admit that I might be the last person to ask about what frame is best for what. Framing is out of my wheel house, as they say, although I am allowed to pay for it. ;)
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I dont print and frame much - have no space to hang anything :)
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I dont print and frame much - have no space to hang anything :)
There are two reasons why I left woodworking. One, the Summer heat here in Arizona made working in the shop more about pain than pleasure, and the second reason was that I was out of room for more "projects" in our home.