NikonGear'23

Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: Øivind Tøien on April 12, 2017, 08:54:22

Title: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Øivind Tøien on April 12, 2017, 08:54:22
Most important gives:
Tilt screen
D500 sensor

Takes:
-1 SD card slot
Apparently it does not support non-cpu lenses any longer, see enlarged image below showing absence of aperture coupling tab.
   :(

https://www.dpreview.com/news/9743513906/nikon-announces-midrange-d7500-dslr (https://www.dpreview.com/news/9743513906/nikon-announces-midrange-d7500-dslr)
http://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/dslr-cameras/d7500.html (http://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/dslr-cameras/d7500.html)

Specification from Nikon's web site:
"Compatible lenses: AF NIKKOR lenses, including type G, E, and D lenses (some restrictions apply to PC lenses) and AI-P NIKKOR lenses and non- CPU AI lenses (M mode only)."
(emphasis by me). So in this respect similar to the 5K bodies and below.

Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on April 12, 2017, 09:28:20
An expected pared-down version of the D500.

Like the D3xxx and D5xxx, it will work with CPU-modified lenses. As the number of controls are limited, you have to set aperture by switching to 'A' mode first, then return to 'M' if that is your preferred mode. AIS lenses would be preferable for the optimum exposure unless an external meter is used.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Jan Anne on April 12, 2017, 09:32:27
And a 50 shot RAW buffer at 8fps, nice.

Kudos Nikon for releasing yet another great camera.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: richardHaw on April 12, 2017, 09:44:01
for that price, it better have an Ai coupling tab. also noticed that the strap lugs were of lower grade style :o :o :o

they probably did this so the D500 line of cameras will not be affected.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Øivind Tøien on April 12, 2017, 10:02:36
An expected pared-down version of the D500.

Like the D3xxx and D5xxx, it will work with CPU-modified lenses. As the number of controls are limited, you have to set aperture by switching to 'A' mode first, then return to 'M' if that is your preferred mode. AIS lenses would be preferable for the optimum exposure unless an external meter is used.

A CPU modified lens should work like any other CPU enabled lens, allowing aperture to be set on the front wheel. Personally I would not have much issues as just about all my lenses have a CPU, and due to my long period with D5100 as my primary body, controlling aperture from the body (in aperture priority)  became my preference for consistency. I assume when it comes to non-CPU lenses with D7500 one will loose metering just like on D5x00 and below, and would set aperture on the lens. It is obviously a cost-saving measure that also helps to distinguish it from D500.  BTW with D40x, aperture in M-mode with a CPU lens is set by pressing the exposure compensation button.

Given the sensor, tilt screen and increased fps and buffer, the gives are likely higher in the case of D7500 than the takes.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on April 12, 2017, 10:10:41
I stand corrected, had the single-control D3xxx/5xxx models in mind.

Thanks for the aperture-setting shortcut info, by the way. Must have missed that, perhaps because I rarely read the manual ?? :D Just tested on my D40X IR and surely, it worked. Evidently one is never too old to learn new tricks. This will speed up my use of D3200 and D5300.

Still, with any camera for which you cannot use the aperture ring for setting the desired aperture, only AIS lenses are recommended for the best exposures.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Øivind Tøien on April 12, 2017, 10:20:17
Thanks for the aperture-setting shortcut info, by the way. Must have missed that, perhaps because I rarely read the manual ?? :D Just tested on my D40X IR and surely, it worked. Evidently one is never too old to learn new tricks.
As I recall it took several years before I discovered it by chance, possibly when I got the D5100...

Quote
Still, with any camera for which you cannot use the aperture ring for setting the desired aperture, only AIS lenses are recommended for the best exposures.
That is certainly true, my period with  D5100 made me choose mostly AIS lenses because of this. AI lenses seem to be popular among forum members so it could be a problem for others.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on April 12, 2017, 10:25:45
My usage of DX cameras tends to be for special applications (UV, IR) thus AI is not a deal-breaker. Others might be less fortunate.

I certainly will have a look into the D7500 when it arrives at my shores. It could be a better model than D500 for the specific job I had in mind.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: chambeshi on April 12, 2017, 10:27:33
Besides only 1 SD slot (also no XQD support) and reduced compatibility with AI lenses compared to D500 (no longer supports A mode), the AF capabilities are reduced to 51 points, but the D7500 retains AF finetuning. All these spec cuts gives a list price  US$500+ less than that for the D500

http://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/dslr-cameras/d7500.html#tab-ProductDetail-ProductTabs-TechSpecs

http://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/dslr-cameras/d500.html
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Øivind Tøien on April 12, 2017, 10:39:20
Besides only 1 SD slot (also no XQD support) and reduced compatibility with AI lenses compared to D500 (no longer supports A mode), the AF capabilities are reduced to 51 points, but the D7500 retains AF finetuning. All these spec cuts gives a list price  US$500+ less than that for the D500

http://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/dslr-cameras/d7500.html#tab-ProductDetail-ProductTabs-TechSpecs

http://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/dslr-cameras/d500.html

They just kept the AF system from D7100 and D7200, with enhancement by coupling to the 180k-pixel RGB metering sensor of D500 and addition of group area AF mode.  It is worth noting though that is has the 9 point dynamic AF that some has complained is absent in D500, and which was reintroduced in D5 though a firmware upgrade. If the AF system had been the same, there would likely not have been enough distinguishing it from D500, and the extra CPU for the AF would likely have increased cost.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Pistnbroke on April 12, 2017, 10:47:22
Well it cannot go in my camera bag ...one SD slot at a wedding ..suicide...20 mp ...thats half way back to a D7000 ..no thanks
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Roland Vink on April 12, 2017, 11:00:26
I can understand only one SD slot and lack of AI support on the budget 3xxx and 5xxx models, but removing these features from the D7500 when the earlier 7xxx models have it, seems a backward step.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on April 12, 2017, 11:01:52
Automated bean counter design. Easier to take away and pretend you get more.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: chambeshi on April 12, 2017, 11:07:47
I can understand only one SD slot and lack of AI support on the budget 3xxx and 5xxx models, but removing these features from the D7500 when the earlier 7xxx models have it, seems a backward step.

Agree with you Roland. On paper specs, this D7500 is difficult to justify as a realistic upgrade to the D7200, which remains a versatile camera. Perhaps the new wifi etc may lure some buyers for uses such as travel. Even with the higher price, the D500 is far ahead in specs and robustness as the best-value investment in the "DX Nikon niche" for wildlife and action, and much more.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: David H. Hartman on April 12, 2017, 11:15:31
I can understand only one SD slot and lack of AI support on the budget 3xxx and 5xxx models, but removing these features from the D7500 when the earlier 7xxx models have it, seems a backward step.

Perhaps the logic is the D7000~D7200 models were not the best replacement for the D300~D300s. Now with a true D300s replacement a lower price for the D7500 was more important.

The D7500 is not the camera for me because of a lack of AI/AIS support. The D500 could be my second camera but as a DX camera it can't be my first.

Anyway the D7500 makes sense to me. It's a lot of camera for a modest price. For someone who wants the features of the D500 there is the D500.

Best,

Dave Hartman

For a fast overview of the D7500 I went to...

http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/d7500.htm (http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/d7500.htm)

...I didn't have my shoe off pounding it on the table by the heading, "Specifications."
No guaranties for the rest of the article.
:)

There are lots of nice big pictures.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: MILLIREHM on April 12, 2017, 12:11:30
Glad that the D500 is existing and that I have got one.
It appears to be not favorable but consequent that different from its preceding 7xxx models the 7500 now has removed the Non CPU support (like 3xxx and 5xxx). Still no AF-DX primes though.

I am in doubt that this body will be commercially successful - as badly needed by this company, we will see.

Certainly it would be disappointing if 100 years anniversary doesnt show more new stuff than this body and limited D5/D500 collectors series in different color
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: simsurace on April 12, 2017, 12:11:39
They must have done one of their incredibly well-designed surveys and concluded that almost none of the users of D7xxx bodies use old lenses.   8)
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Øivind Tøien on April 12, 2017, 12:43:06
Well it cannot go in my camera bag ...one SD slot at a wedding ..suicide...20 mp ...thats half way back to a D7000 ..no thanks

5568 compared to 6000 horizontal pixels is only 7.2% decrease in linear resolution, hardly a deal breaker.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on April 12, 2017, 12:44:18
They must have done one of their incredibly well-designed surveys and concluded that almost none of the users of D7xxx bodies use old lenses.   8)

That wouldn't hardly be surprising ...

Fortunately the D7500 supports GPS. That is something.

Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: stenrasmussen on April 12, 2017, 13:04:11
IMO these days people should be happy as long as Nikon survives. 100th Anniversary ought to mean a new camera model but so far nothing points in that direction. Maybe the 125th will bring modern tech  ;D
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Frank Fremerey on April 12, 2017, 13:34:57
Most important news: no 20k AF but the old 3500DX
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on April 12, 2017, 13:51:37
Well, Nikon's survival is not obvious if instead of improving products, new models have important features removed. It can lead to a situation where the used market product is seen by some users as preferable to the new model.

Nikon should go over their minds to improve each model instead of making it better in some respect and less in others. In this case they risk people going after D7200's on the used market instead of new D7500's. For example if someone wants wifi that actually works, they would likely go for the older model, if they have manual focus lenses without chips, or if they want the safety of dual card writing. I believe the D7200 has been a very successful product for Nikon. Why risk that customer satisfaction by removing important features on the new model? When Nikon included CPU metering support to the D200 and vastly improved the viewfinder, this to me was a show of support from the company that mid-level body should be compatible with manual focus lenses (and give a clear viewfinder image so that focus could be evaluated by eye, to some extent). Now they are taking a step back. Who is not to guarantee that next time around they won't remove these features from the D500's or D750's successor also? I think it's important for Nikon to understand that there are legacy lens users and it's very disappointing that affordable camera bodies now give poor support to their use.

Just yesterday I was thinking about buying a DX camera and it seems likely now that I would go for the old model instead of the new one because replacing some of my non-CPU lenses would be costly and I had trusted that Nikon would keep the current level of support. D500 viewfinder is kind of tight with my glasses and I would not be completely happy with that model because of that reason, although otherwise the viewfinder is excellent. I need to re-evaluate the viewfinders in a shop to see what the situation is. The D7200 eyepoint is 19.5mm, the D7500 18.5mm and D500 16mm.  I know this doesn't tell the whole story (there can be differences in how recessed the viewfinder ocular is and how thick it is) but it's disappointing to me. I miss the F100's and F3HP's good viewfinder ergonomics for eyeglass users. Anyway, it's best to try it out and see how it works in practice.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on April 12, 2017, 14:15:33
Hmm. They included radio-controlled remote flash support in the D7500. This does make it more appealing to me.

Also, I really like auto AF fine tune; I've used it with the D5 (averaging resulting value from several repetitions) and with every lens except one, the resulting value has been the one that works best in practical use. I know some users say it doesn't work well (I suppose this depends on the lens and test conditions), but it has been very helpful to me. For some reason it didn't give the optimal value for the 105/1.4.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on April 12, 2017, 16:08:08
The D7500 specifications do suggest center weighted metering and spot are available on non-CPU lenses:

"Metering Method:
Center-weighted: Weight of 75% given to 8 mm circle in center of frame. Diameter of circle can be changed to 6, 10, or 13 mm, or weighting can be based on average of entire frame (non-CPU lenses use 8-mm circle)
Matrix: 3D Color Matrix Metering III (type G, E and D lenses); Color Matrix Metering III (other CPU lenses)
Spot: Meters circle with diameter of about 3.5 mm (about 2.5% of frame) centered on selected focus point (on center focus point when non-CPU lens is used)
Highlight-weighted: Available with type G, E, and D lenses"


Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on April 12, 2017, 16:35:32
It appears the positioning support holes and electrical connections for a vertical grip are missing from the D7500 base. Also no vertical grip is mentioned in the accessories section so far.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: CS on April 12, 2017, 17:25:50
This thread is my introduction to the D7500, 10 minutes ago I had no idea that it was coming. Having said that. I have to remark on Ilkka's remarks, which hit home for me.

I have a D200, and for me focusing the 105/2.5 ais has been a problem. So much so, that I don't mount the lens on the D200. As Ilkka said, the F100 and F3HP were easy to focus with that lens. Remarks from other DX users have not extolled the virtues of non-cpu lenses on DX models, and AFAIK, that is a major problem. Nikon's non-cpu F mount lenses should not present focusing issues on any Nikon model, IMO.

Ilkka is right again about folks looking at used models when the hobble a D7200 replacement as they have donw with the D7500. No thanks, not for me. In fact, with the bon-cpu lens focusing issue for DX, I'm just not excited about replacing my D200 with a later DX model. Admittedly, I have not shot with any DX model newer than my D200, so I have no personal experience. OTOH, I'm not likely to get any such experience.

The way things are going with Nikon, I'm probably out of the camera buying market.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Hugh_3170 on April 12, 2017, 18:37:43
Maybe this is a new form of Nikon's hobbling of cameras that do not have an aperture coupling tab?

I have also read it to mean that spot metering and a basic form of centre weighted metering will be provided to non-cpu equipped lenses in Manual mode only.  I have always wondered why something along these lines could not have been done before now.  Still I too prefer the way the D7200 does its metering with non-cpu lenses.

The D7500 specifications do suggest center weighted metering and spot are available on non-CPU lenses:

"Metering Method:
Center-weighted: Weight of 75% given to 8 mm circle in center of frame. Diameter of circle can be changed to 6, 10, or 13 mm, or weighting can be based on average of entire frame (non-CPU lenses use 8-mm circle)
Matrix: 3D Color Matrix Metering III (type G, E and D lenses); Color Matrix Metering III (other CPU lenses)
Spot: Meters circle with diameter of about 3.5 mm (about 2.5% of frame) centered on selected focus point (on center focus point when non-CPU lens is used)
Highlight-weighted: Available with type G, E, and D lenses"

Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on April 12, 2017, 19:27:02
Maybe in the future Nikon will add stop down metering of manual lenses to D5600 successor as well; there should not be any hardware reason not to. I am trying to see a silver lining.  :)

It has been expected that cameras and lenses become more expensive in the future because of reduced sales volume. Nikon is just saying that they want D500 money for dual card slot and full Ai metering functionality now.

I wonder why Nikon dropped the 24MP sensor; is it to gain fps or to share costs, or improve high ISO or colour consistency? I wonder if they give up on higher pixel densitities entirely or if they will revisit this in the future. It is a little ironic that the models with the best AF are not the models with the highest resolution now in either DX or FX.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: MILLIREHM on April 12, 2017, 19:51:29
disappointing
Nikon should bring products with fascinating "esprit", not nitpicking lineup changes
thats not the way for the proposed higher quality path for making more revenue
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on April 12, 2017, 20:20:12
Nikon is not focusing on increasing revenue any more (as this is not likely possible in a declining market) rather their focus is on profitability. By removing expensive mechanical parts they can reduce manufacturing cost (and since the camera price is increased a bit, greater profit).  If some previous D7x00 users now feel the need to buy the D500 instead of D7500 to get those features, Nikon also ends up with greater profit (which may or may not be above zero now).

On the other hand, the cost of some features such as high fps and large buffer are going down. 8fps with 50 raw image burst depth has not been available at the D7500 price level in a DSLR before.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on April 12, 2017, 20:46:01
Maybe in the future Nikon will add stop down metering of manual lenses to D5600 successor as well; there should not be any hardware reason not to. ...

Nikon will only be convinced to allow this for E-type lenses.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Roland Vink on April 12, 2017, 22:00:12
It appears the positioning support holes and electrical connections for a vertical grip are missing from the D7500 base. Also no vertical grip is mentioned in the accessories section so far.
No vertical grip, one SD slot, no AI metering, tilt-screen ... the specifications seem closer to the D5xxx line (except it has front and rear command dials). Disappointing for what has traditionally been the "enthusiast" line of cameras.

Quote
Center-weighted: Weight of 75% given to 8 mm circle in center of frame. Diameter of circle can be changed to 6, 10, or 13 mm, or weighting can be based on average of entire frame (non-CPU lenses use 8-mm circle)
[...]
Spot: Meters circle with diameter of about 3.5 mm (about 2.5% of frame) centered on selected focus point (on center focus point when non-CPU lens is used)
This clearly suggests that metering is available for non-CPU lenses, and if the camera does not support AI, surely this can only mean stop-down metering. If so, lack of AI support wouldn't be quite so bad. No AI linkage should also mean pre-AI lenses can fit without modification, so this might be an advantage for some users, although I guess the number or photographers who still use pre-AI lenses is very small.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Nikon makes similar decisions for the D610 replacement

In the end, it makes little difference to me since I am not in the market for an FX or DX camera. My D600 is performing well enough, my wife needs to replace her ageing D50, but we will look for a more compact camera, something like m4/3 with 14-140 zoom or Panasonic ZS100/TZ100.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on April 12, 2017, 22:25:13
Apparently D7500 is not intended as the successor of D7200.  They restarted the D7x00 series, as they had done with D750 which was not really a successor of D700.

Now I wouldn't be surprised if D650 (?) would turn out to be an FX version of D3x00...
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on April 12, 2017, 22:39:50
The D7500 still has things important to me: pentaprism viewfinder (I will never buy a pentamirror model after having such pain with trying to see through the D70 VF); former top of the line AF system enhanced with group area AF mode, AF fine tune (with auto option), focus motor in the body, two command dials, and other high end features such as weather sealing, 8fps with 50 raw image buffer etc.

In many ways it is more advanced than the previous top of the line D300s which could only shoot 8fps in 12 bit mode, equipped by the battery grip. The group area AF mode is extremely useful for action in my experience. Nikon's new radio AWL is superb in my experience.

I don't think supporting all the lens types made in history is realistic at this level of body features vs. cost. Nikon has made just too many different variations of how the body and lens interface.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Roland Vink on April 12, 2017, 22:55:46
Now I wouldn't be surprised if D650 (?) would turn out to be an FX version of D3x00...
.. or D5x00, I think the flip-out touch-screen would be a popular feature
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on April 12, 2017, 23:35:34
I don't think supporting all the lens types made in history is realistic at this level of body features vs. cost. Nikon has made just too many different variations of how the body and lens interface.

Also, the recent release of AF-P lineup should make the (in)compatibility issue even more complicated.

.. or D5x00, I think the flip-out touch-screen would be a popular feature

Yeah, I wouldn't completely rule out the FX version of D5x00, but D3x00 feature would be more realistic as the most cost-effective "entry level" FX body.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: John Geerts on April 12, 2017, 23:50:28
I wouldn't be at all surprised if Nikon makes similar decisions for the D610 replacement
Is the D750 not the D610 replacement looking at the specs.?
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on April 13, 2017, 00:50:45
No, the D610 is still a current model.

The D7500 specifications state that EFCS is indeed available in M-UP mode. Very good.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Øivind Tøien on April 13, 2017, 02:14:41
That is good news. It is going to be interesting to see if they have tweaked even more performance out of the D500 sensor.

There should be less chance of accidental opening of the SD card port than on my D7100. And of course there is no aperture coupling tab that can break...

It looks like the D7500 has an ever so slightly higher grip than my 7100, while weighing 135g less.


http://j.mp/2oud0kP



Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Roland Vink on April 13, 2017, 02:49:34
The new leatherette finish looks nice.

Further thought on the single SD card ... since cards now have more and more capacity, the the 20MP sensor will result in smaller file sizes compared to the D7200, I guess the capacity of one card should be sufficient. That still does not help for those who want two cards for backup in case one fails.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Frank Fremerey on April 13, 2017, 04:41:50
I fear the feature reductions make way for yet another prosumer line 9x00
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: David H. Hartman on April 13, 2017, 04:53:37
Realistically what percentage of potential D7500 buyers will use AI and AIS lenses?

Dave
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on April 13, 2017, 07:21:51
Here are other exciting new products from Nikon: newly designed stainless steel hot shoe covers:

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/1054707.html

 :o :o :o
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Macro_Cosmos on April 13, 2017, 07:25:16
No AI coupling
No joystick
Only 1 SD slot
$1250??????


Yeah, such a great camera. Hope it's a success, so that I can finally get a D7200 used for a reasonable price!
(It's not)
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Fons Baerken on April 13, 2017, 08:01:08
Is Nikon considering to limit its manual focus lenses, ai and non-ai, to maybe a few specialist cameras, the Df2, or rid off it permanently, it has been my fear for some time now?
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Øivind Tøien on April 13, 2017, 08:20:18
"Maybe in the future Nikon will add stop down metering of manual lenses to D5600 successor as well; there should not be any hardware reason not to. ..."
Nikon will only be convinced to allow this for E-type lenses.

To stop the lens down the body needs a preview button, missing on the D5x00 and below...

It is worth noting that the Nikon 1 series bodies (my reference is AW1)  will allow metering with non-cpu lenses with FT-1 (which does not have the aperture coupling tab) both in M and A mode, but then the lens is kept stopped down to the aperture set on the lens the whole time.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on April 13, 2017, 08:40:42
That is the material point. As long as there is a stop-down lever under user control, Nikon goes all the way to prevent metering at working aperture.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on April 13, 2017, 08:43:48
Such "knower's" function like the stop-down metering would not be incorporated on the mid-range or entry-level models, sad to say.

One of the bigger problem with the stop-down metering on the (D)SLRs is the stray light entering from the ocular.  The potential users of (D)SLRs are not likely to aware of the necessity of controlling the stray light.  Also, when the lens is stopped down, the influence of the stray light will be bigger, because the amount of the light from the take-up lens is reduced.

All these problems will only contribute to the higher rate of wrong exposure, which should lead to the increased users' claims.

The mirrorless cameras like Nikon 1 has no such issues from the outset.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: David H. Hartman on April 13, 2017, 08:47:43
Is Nikon considering to limit its manual focus lenses, ai and non-ai, to maybe a few specialist cameras, the Df2, or rid off it permanently, it has been my fear for some time now?

I doubt Nikon would drop non-CPU support entirely at this time. They have to wait for people like me to die first. I would be shocked if the D5s and the D810 and D750 replacements do not continue to offer traditional non-CPU lens accommodation. Given the enthusiasm here for the Df I would consider dropping non-CPU support from the Df replacement to be ritual suicide.

Dave Hartman
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: richardHaw on April 13, 2017, 09:24:31
they are just preventing the D7500 from eating into D500 sales  :o :o :o
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Fons Baerken on April 13, 2017, 09:29:01
I doubt Nikon would drop non-CPU support entirely at this time. They have to wait for people like me to die first. I would be shocked if the D5s and the D810 and D750 replacements do not continue to offer traditional non-CPU lens accommodation. Given the enthusiasm here for the Df I would consider dropping non-CPU support from the Df replacement to be ritual suicide.

Dave Hartman

Not uncommon within Japanese culture, ritual suicide.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: David H. Hartman on April 13, 2017, 09:53:19
I thought that, that was in the past.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on April 13, 2017, 10:20:13
Well, Nikon still have D500, D610, Df, D750, D810/A, D5 with Ai coupling. That's quite many models and used market on top of that. I don't think Ai coupling is going anywhere on the higher end models. D610 successor, if there is one, might be on the table for a similar treatment but surely the user reaction matters.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on April 13, 2017, 11:06:00
Not uncommon within Japanese culture, ritual suicide.

There have been countless cases of wrong business decisions causing the failure of the companies or industries all around the world.  Nothing to do with the Harakiri tradition.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: richardHaw on April 13, 2017, 11:11:06
was with prof Goto the other day and the insights into the Df development is amazing. it was a product born out of pure passion because they know that many people still use non-Ai lenses :o :o :o

this made me conclude that the Ai coupling tab will not get thrown out of the design in higher-end cameras because they know that people still use them and that Nikon still manufactures Ai-S lenses  ::)

I can see that they are trying to put the D7xxx line lower in the product totem pole. ::)
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on April 13, 2017, 11:16:50
I can see that they are trying to put the D7xxx line lower in the product totem pole. ::)

Perhaps they changed their look on the D7x00 series from the highest-end DX model to the upgrade model offered for the D5x00 and D3x00 users.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Fons Baerken on April 13, 2017, 11:39:50
Perhaps they changed their look on the D7x00 series from the highest-end DX model to the upgrade model offered for the D5x00 and D3x00 users.

Before we go completely off topic Akira, i thought of Yukio Mishima.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on April 13, 2017, 12:16:42
Before we go completely off topic Akira, i thought of Yukio Mishima.

I know, but that's nothing to do with the business decision.  Maybe we'd better refrain form going in this direction any further.   :)
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on April 13, 2017, 12:21:39
To resume, my only interest with regard to the release of D7500 would be the capacity of the new EN-EL15a.   ;D
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: simsurace on April 13, 2017, 12:28:06
Back in 2011 I upgraded from D90 to D7000 mainly due to the presence of Ai-coupling on the D7000.
I did specifically not want or need a D300s.
The same is still true today. I don't need the features of a D500 for what I do.
Were I using a DX system for the stuff that I do (which is basically impossible because a full lens line-up does not exist for DX), I would opt for D7xxx instead of D500 the same way I opted for D600/D750 instead of D800/D5 etc.
If there is nothing in-between D5xxx and D500, they are pissing off many people for whom the D7xxx would be the ideal body.
You do not push people to a significantly higher price point and heavier body just because of a single feature (that you previously introduced).
That is a major error I think, and whatever data was used to back up this decision is highly questionable.
Nikon is very out of touch with its user base.

It's not only old-time photographers that are using manual lenses.
I did not have any Ai-s Nikkors when I started, unlike some people that have been using Nikon for several decades.
I bought them each for specific reasons and because they are an amazing value for the money.
The D7000 gave me a possibility to use them much more effectively.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Øivind Tøien on April 13, 2017, 12:37:47
I wonder if D7500 is made with a magnesium alloy in rear part of the body any longer? There is no mention of that on Nikon's site, only carbon fiber composite. Similar text for the D750 mentions magnesium rear and carbon fiber composite front.

Dealing with cameras in very cold conditions, I do not necessarily think that would be a bad thing if the construction otherwise is sturdy. The metal bodies tend to draw heat from one's fingers very quickly... The weakest point where plastic can cause problems is the attachment of the mount to the mirror box, which anyway is carbon fiber composite or other plastic material on all but D800 and single digit series. The modified strap attachment could be a consequence of the need for a different design than the traditional lugs due to use of carbon fiber composite. D80/90 also had somewhat similar strap lugs.

D750:
"Another first for a Nikon full-frame DSLR, the D750 employs a compact, lightweight and slim monocoque body design. The front body and front cover are constructed from carbon-fiber reinforced thermoplastics, while the rear and top covers are magnesium alloy, for a balanced combination of nimbleness and ruggedness. This slim styling and ergonomic layout allows for ample grip space and comfortable handling."

D7500:
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on April 13, 2017, 12:58:04
I've been using D750 about 14 months and haven't have any negative impression about the composite matarial compared to the magnesium alloy part of the cover.  The monocoque body feels noticeably more solid than D7000 or D610 whose outer shell squeaked when I squeezed the grip.

Aside from the concern about the "bite" of the screws that fix the mount in place, I don't see any necessity to be particular about the magnesium alloy aside from the electro-magnatic shielding function.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on April 13, 2017, 15:02:23
Well, Nikon cannot make money (remember, their profit was in the negative last year) by competing with second hand manual focus lenses that sell for a fraction of the cost that they cost new (inflation corrected). To have this support of old lenses in new cameras, there is an additional cost (due to the components required) and for each camera body that is not at the very high end, Nikon must ask the question: which features the users of this particular body want to use their money on? In this case Nikon increased the buffer size, fps rate, processing speed, provided the additional motor to control aperture during live view and video, added the high resolution matrix meter to facilitate subject recognition and autofocus, etc. Quite a lot of things that didn't exist in the D7200 were included in the D7500. I think most users of manual focus lenses prefer FX for the larger viewfinder. There are of course exceptions such as macro or astrophotography, where one might prefer to use manual focus lenses but in the former case, the Ai coupling is not necessary, and in the latter case, metering isn't really useful, so for either of these applications the D7500 would seem to work even with manual focus.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on April 13, 2017, 15:47:39
Wow, the flicker reduction feature for still images is included, so the camera will adjust timing of shots subtly to synchronize with the 100Hz (or 120Hz) flickering of artificial lights so the exposure is made at the peak moment of the lighting intensity.  The anti flicker feature should not only reduce noise but improve colour consistency across shots.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: David H. Hartman on April 13, 2017, 21:13:49
The D7500 looks to me like a very well thought out camera. It probably has the features needed by its target buyers. Maybe the rest of us should not expect a camera with all the features of a D500 for $500.00 to $700.00 (USD) less than a D500.

I hope Nikon sells a lot of these. I think Nikon should.

Dave

To help Nikon next time you see someone taking a picture with a cell phone camera you might politely tell them that should be taking that picture with a Nikon D7500. :) You'd be doing them a great favor.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: arthurking83 on April 14, 2017, 01:56:21
I'm just wondering if the reason for the D7500 being moved down the product features totem pole, that this could be a way for them to amalgamate the D5xxx and D3xxx line, or simply remove one of them entirely?
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: FGAng on April 14, 2017, 05:46:17
If we go back to earlier DSLR history, with D50, D70, D100, D1 in the line, non-CPU support only existed in D1.  I had the D70 and that caused me to sell some of my Ai lenses as I thought there would not be support for Ai lenses within my price range.  Then support came back in D200, and D300, so Nikon gave thoughts to professional and semi-professionals on backward compatibility.  I think the non-CPU was added to D7000 because Nikon had decided then that the D300 series would not be continued, perhaps it was eating into D3 sales.  I see the present move as affirming that the D500 and its successors will be made available and that DX compatibility with non-CPU will start at D500.  So there is a real danger, that the D610 successor will not have this feature.  Likely D750 successor might, or only the professional and semi-professional bodies would have, Df successor would be the exception.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Hugh_3170 on April 14, 2017, 06:46:43
If I and others on this thread are reading the D7500 specifications correctly, it does in fact provide some limited metering support for non-cpu lenses  -  just spot and basic centre weighted metering support in Manual exposure mode only.

What I am saying here is that Nikon has not completely left users of non-cpu lenses in the lurch in terms of metering with the D7500 .

It also provides me with a very tantalising question:  could Nikon offer such non-cpu support for cameras such as the present D3xxx and D5xxx families via a firmware upgrade? 

I realise that I am just day dreaming, but I have never been able to figure out why such basic metering support could not have been provided for camera bodies without the aperture follower tab.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on April 14, 2017, 07:59:57
... It also provides me with a very tantalising question:  could Nikon offer such non-cpu support for cameras such as the present D3xxx and D5xxx families via a firmware upgrade? 

I realise that I am just day dreaming, but I have never been able to figure out why such basic metering support could not have been provided for camera bodies without the aperture follower tab.

The issue here is the Nikon thinking on this question not the hardware per se. Or, to be entirely correct, the way the camera influences the actual aperture through the aperture control lever.

In Nikon's universe, any stop down metering is confined to situations in which there is no lens - camera linkage.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: simsurace on April 14, 2017, 09:32:44
The aperture follower is only needed for controlling the aperture via aperture ring. The camera could still control the aperture with the lens aperture ring set to the smallest setting, at least for AU-s lenses. But those older DX cameras that did not have a follower also did not allow any metering. The non-CPU menu and metering functionality does not require an aperture follower, at least in principle.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Hugh_3170 on April 14, 2017, 11:02:07
It will indeed be interesting to see how Nikon have implemented the non-cpu lens metering in the new D7500 - whether for example it is done along the lines of what is provided on the Df (when its aperture follower tab is folded away) or whether it is implemented using some other approach or paradigm.  I guess that we will find out one way or another once either the camera or its user manual becomes available.


The issue here is the Nikon thinking on this question not the hardware per se. Or, to be entirely correct, the way the camera influences the actual aperture through the aperture control lever.

In Nikon's universe, any stop down metering is confined to situations in which there is no lens - camera linkage.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Daniel Bliss on April 14, 2017, 14:42:51
Feels like it's been designed by a committee at war with itself.  The AI removal simply doesn't make much sense to me.  Why would Nikon toss away a key advantage?  The one card thing, worse.  The consumer-grade strap eyelets, ugh.  And then the huge buffer and the general system-wide speed-up.  And yet no UHS-II card support to support that speed-up.  Go figure. 
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on April 14, 2017, 15:29:02
From what I've read, the aperture readout seems to be quite a complicated part and easily broken with even the slightest impact (this happened to my D700; the mechanical readout stopped working).  I am sure having it results in tangible costs and takes some space inside the camera. And most likely if you are buying this camera for action (8fps, buffer, the very nice group area AF), you're better off using AF lenses for such subjects. The market for the D610 is different and old fast primes are relatively for use with that camera (originally intended angle of view, larger viewfinder).

From the user's point of view the fact that this camera achieves a 50-image burst depth (14 bit lossless nef) with UHS-I cards is a good thing as those UHS-II cards are quite expensive and making users upgrade to UHS-II cards to gain acceptable burst performance could easily result in hundreds of Euros of additional cost. Yet SD UHS-II cards seem to share the fragile housing and tiny size of UHS-I while costing as much as the robust XQD cards. Several of my SD cards have stopped working far before their time and I would not want to pay a lot of money for any SD card. I think Nikon should go with dual XQD card slots in high end models and UHS-I is fine for consumer priced models since the cost differential between the I and II cards is so large. I think it is great that the D7500 achieves 50 image burst with existing, affordable cards. With the D500, if one wants to dual write and get maximum performance, one may end up buying two sets of expensive cards and two new readers. I can understand the use of mixed cards in a transition phase but XQD is fully mature and in my view, better value than UHS-II.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: David Franks on April 14, 2017, 15:30:11
Have to admit that I'm very confused by this release. The title of this thread says it all.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Peter Forsell on April 14, 2017, 17:34:44
I think the feature mix of D7500 means two things. First, there will be a D500 successor. Second, there will not be a D5700 successor.

Back in the day the D70/D80/D90 did not have the AI-indexing tab. It was added to the D7000 when Nikon didn't think the D300 series would continue. So, at that time the D7000 was the top DX model. Now that The D500 is the top dog and has the AI-tab, they decided to remove it from the lower model again. This means that there will be another top DX in the future, D510 ?

Since the feature set of the D7500 is so close to the D5600, I think the 5000 series is dead. No grip, no AI-tab, no second card slot but tilt screen added. Sure, Nikon could name the next 3000-series camera D5700 but I doubt it.

So the Nikon camera lineup is now D5, D810, D750, D500, D7500 and D3400. Three FX and three DX. All the other models are discontinued, but unfortunately for Nikon, thousands upon thousands of them lie in warehouses unsold. I think the Df is also discontinued long ago.

Nikon manufactures cameras in batches and we can be assured they will not re-tool their assembly lines to make another run of D7100 or D7200 or D3200 despite those being still present in price lists. Nikon has way too many of those, no need to make a single one more. This can easily be evidenced by the current financial turmoil in Nikon.


Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: chambeshi on April 14, 2017, 17:38:26
Here's a table comparing D500 vs D7500 vs D7200

http://nikonrumors.com/nikon-d500-vs-nikon-d7500-vs-nikon-d7200-specifications-comparison/
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on April 14, 2017, 18:31:56
We simply don't know which model lines will be discontinued, if any. The D5x00 and D7x00 are best sellers. I have understood that the D3400 is selling poorly and it would not be surprising to me if it were discontinued soon. There has not been adequate progress in that line to make people want it.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: benveniste on April 14, 2017, 20:05:11
I can understand only one SD slot and lack of AI support on the budget 3xxx and 5xxx models, but removing these features from the D7500 when the earlier 7xxx models have it, seems a backward step.

I don't think it's a bad camera, nor even a bad set of technology choices, but why Nikon Marketeers chose to slap a D7xxx badge on it I'll never understand.  It won't be the first time I've been baffled by Nikon marketing nor is it the worst marketing decision I've seen them make.  What bothers me is that they've made this same mistake before.  The N/F80 (and by extension the D100) should have had AI support as well.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Roland Vink on April 14, 2017, 20:27:54
Well, Nikon cannot make money (remember, their profit was in the negative last year) by competing with second hand manual focus lenses that sell for a fraction of the cost that they cost new (inflation corrected). To have this support of old lenses in new cameras, there is an additional cost (due to the components required) and for each camera body that is not at the very high end, Nikon must ask the question: which features the users of this particular body want to use their money on? In this case Nikon increased the buffer size, fps rate, processing speed, provided the additional motor to control aperture during live view and video, added the high resolution matrix meter to facilitate subject recognition and autofocus, etc. Quite a lot of things that didn't exist in the D7200 were included in the D7500. I think most users of manual focus lenses prefer FX for the larger viewfinder. There are of course exceptions such as macro or astrophotography, where one might prefer to use manual focus lenses but in the former case, the Ai coupling is not necessary, and in the latter case, metering isn't really useful, so for either of these applications the D7500 would seem to work even with manual focus.
I can't disagree with this ... yet it feels like design by bean-counters: attract customers with some nice new features but otherwise give the very minimum that will be acceptable and no more. The risk of this strategy is that the customer feels they do not get value for money and decide not to buy Nikon at all. Surely it is better for Nikon if a customer buys a camera and uses old second hand lenses on it, than the customer not buying the camera at all.

But I'm not really the best to argue this case, I waited until an affordable FX camera appeared (D600) until I bought a DSLR for my manual focus lenses. I would have never bought the D7500 or any predecessors to use with my AI and AIS lenses. I suspect many other photographers with arsenals of manual focus lenses did the same.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: chambeshi on April 14, 2017, 20:42:21
As many commentators have noted repeatedly in discussions on the theme of this thread, a new DLSR has to cater to a wide spectrum of user categories. Each has niche requirements - e.g. compatibility for MF lenses, travelers with Wifi communications; fast AF; Dual SD cards for backup etc. Any mid level camera has to sell in volume. Besides being competitively priced, a mid range DSLR as in the D7500 will logically target emerging photographers seeking to upgrade from their entry level DSLR or smaller format digital camera (or cellphone).
Nikon cameras lacking backward compatibility with the legendary F mount (well at least to AI lenses) antagonize older users who started with MF lenses on the F2, F3, FM Series etc. Today, G and E lenses are set to dominate current models. While many emerging users expect AF, they may consider D lenses obsolescent, because they lack VR. Hence, besides AI/AIS, the in-camera focus is an expendable cost cutting option on some DSLRs.
It will be interesting to see what market research will tell us about the proportional use by Nikonians of the different lens categories, and why they first selected their particular DSLR(s) and how they use the camera in practice (especially as their photographic interests evolve...)

Quote from: Roland Vink on April 12, 2017, 11:00:26
I can understand only one SD slot and lack of AI support on the budget 3xxx and 5xxx models, but removing these features from the D7500 when the earlier 7xxx models have it, seems a backward step.
I don't think it's a bad camera, nor even a bad set of technology choices, but why Nikon Marketeers chose to slap a D7xxx badge on it I'll never understand.  It won't be the first time I've been baffled by Nikon marketing nor is it the worst marketing decision I've seen them make.  What bothers me is that they've made this same mistake before.  The N/F80 (and by extension the D100) should have had AI support as well.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: David H. Hartman on April 14, 2017, 20:49:18
I don't think it's a bad camera, nor even a bad set of technology choices, but why Nikon Marketeers chose to slap a D7xxx badge on it I'll never understand.  It won't be the first time I've been baffled by Nikon marketing nor is it the worst marketing decision I've seen them make.  What bothers me is that they've made this same mistake before.  The N/F80 (and by extension the D100) should have had AI support as well.

I've wondered what Nikon was thinking about a number of camera model designations. They don't seem to have a plan except for the single digit series.

The D80 was based on the mechanical components of the F80/N80 and since these did not support AI and AIS metering it's no surprise the D80 didn't. The D80 was a volume selling entry model and a success. I found the viewfinder in it the worst I've seen in a Nikon dSLR or fSLR for that mater. There may have been others but none I tried.

Dave Hartman
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: David H. Hartman on April 14, 2017, 21:20:10
Anyone: does the D7500 meter in Manual Mode with AI/AIS Nikkors? I'm under the impression that the D7500 gives center-weighted and spot in M.

Dave
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on April 14, 2017, 23:03:01
Anyone: does the D7500 meter in Manual Mode with AI/AIS Nikkors? I'm under the impression that the D7500 gives center-weighted and spot in M.

That's what the specifications say. That's all any one of us knows.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on April 14, 2017, 23:49:35
I just realized that D3400 cannot "meter" with AF-D lenses.  It can only be used in "M" mode without meter.

Obviously Nikon is abandoning the legacy lenses for the simpler future compatibility.  I won't be surprized if D7500 cannot meter with the MF lenses.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on April 15, 2017, 00:01:13
Many of my Nikon using friends do use older lenses along with the new. Backwards compatibility is a benefit.  However, be that as it may, many DX consumer DSLRs do not have full backwards compatibility and some 35mm film SLRs also were like this (F-401 series to my knowledge could not be used with non-CPU lenses). So the train went long ago if you wanted all Nikon bodies to support all old lenses (mid-1980s).  What we can do is select for our purposes a camera body which is fit for the purpose and not get emotional about features on other cameras that are for someone else. By buying an appropriate camera for our needs, we also inform Nikon on what their users need.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on April 15, 2017, 00:38:07
Yeah, but D3400 seems to be the first DSLR that cannot meter with the lenses even with the CPU (AF-D).
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: bjornthun on April 15, 2017, 03:45:21
Yeah, but D3400 seems to be the first DSLR that cannot meter with the lenses even with the CPU (AF-D).
That piece of information surprises me, but I had a look at a detailed picture of the mount on the D3400, and you're absolutely right. There is a tab/lever missing in the lower left part of the mount on the D3400, that would be needed for the camera to know that the aperture ring is set to the smallest aperture/highest number.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on April 15, 2017, 05:07:26
The fact that AF-"D" doesn't work would suggest the aperture ring is no more relevant?  I'm not sure if D3400 can meter with the AF-D or full manual lenses in video mode.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on April 15, 2017, 08:40:26
Does the D3400 have an aperture stop-down lever? If so, the limitation of not metering with AF-D lenses is purely by design.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: chambeshi on April 15, 2017, 09:04:13
Many of my Nikon using friends do use older lenses along with the new. Backwards compatibility is a benefit.  However, be that as it may, many DX consumer DSLRs do not have full backwards compatibility and some 35mm film SLRs also were like this (F-401 series to my knowledge could not be used with non-CPU lenses). So the train went long ago if you wanted all Nikon bodies to support all old lenses (mid-1980s).  What we can do is select for our purposes a camera body which is fit for the purpose and not get emotional about features on other cameras that are for someone else. By buying an appropriate camera for our needs, we also inform Nikon on what their users need.

Agree fully, and do not overlook the cost effectiveness of Used digital Nikon bodies that will continue be available for quite a few years hence. This will include superseded top models : as it stands D2, D3, D4, D600, D700 series, together with those older DX cameras supporting AI, AIS, D lenses. These bodies still work well and have their niche roles
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Øivind Tøien on April 15, 2017, 09:34:20
Does the D3400 have an aperture stop-down lever? If so, the limitation of not metering with AF-D lenses is purely by design.

Nikon's classic way of thinking. To save on parts they removed the sensor that checks if a lens is at minimum aperture. Ergo one cannot be sure that the user is clever enough to make sure that the lens is set correctly - so disallow the user to potentially operate the camera incorrectly.

A firmware hack could do away with this limitation, as there really is no physical reason the body cannot meter correctly with an AF lens and control aperture as long a the user operates the lens correctly. It would be easier to stay away from the D3400 altogether though.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on April 15, 2017, 13:40:43
Wow, it looks like the metering of non-CPU lenses has now disappeared from the specifications at least on Nikon USA page. So, apparently no stop down metering, then.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on April 15, 2017, 13:56:36
Does the D3400 have an aperture stop-down lever? If so, the limitation of not metering with AF-D lenses is purely by design.

No, it doesn't.  It is designed NOT to meter with AF-D.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: MILLIREHM on April 15, 2017, 14:44:19
... yet it feels like design by bean-counters: attract customers with some nice new features but otherwise give the very minimum that will be acceptable and no more. The risk of this strategy is that the customer feels they do not get value for money and decide not to buy Nikon at all. ...
+1
I had similar thoughts
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Matthew Currie on April 15, 2017, 15:29:17
No, it doesn't.  It is designed NOT to meter with AF-D.
I had not noticed this, and it really surprises me.  The D3200 and 3300 have a minimum aperture switch, which allows full metering with AFD, AF and AIP lenses, and I can't understand why that simple and cheap feature was dropped on the 3400.  With a chipped lens no AI follower is needed.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on April 15, 2017, 15:49:57
No, it doesn't.  It is designed NOT to meter with AF-D.

The picture does indeed show the opposite, viz.  a stop down lever in the camera throat ... thus there is obvious the D3400 could have metered with the older lenses if Nikon had not prevented this option,

However, if a lens with a 'G' CPU is attached, this constraint is circumvented. Meaning you will be able to meter even with manual focus lenses.

The conclusion is that the D3400 and its ilk are designed exclusively for 'G' (and, by extension, 'E')  lenses.

Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: CS on April 15, 2017, 18:34:31
If anyone is interested Thom Hogan had a few words about the D7500 in his announcement of the model. He mostly gives it a thumbs up, and yes, some of use disagree with that. http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/nikon-introduces-the-d7500.html

First 4K video is a yawner for me because I don't care about video, I'm a still shooter. I'll trade the video capabilities for non-cpu metering, which appears to be a very generous offer on my part.  ;D

Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: bjornthun on April 15, 2017, 19:01:44
If anyone is interested Thom Hogan had a few words about the D7500 in his announcement of the model. He mostly gives it a thumbs up, and yes, some of use disagree with that. http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/nikon-introduces-the-d7500.html

First 4K video is a yawner for me because I don't care about video, I'm a still shooter. I'll trade the video capabilities for non-cpu metering, which appears to be a very generous offer on my part.  ;D
Without video capabilities, Nikon DSLRs would be a much tougher sell. You wouldn't want that to happen.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on April 15, 2017, 21:45:27
The picture does indeed show the opposite, viz.  a stop down lever in the camera throat ... thus there is obvious the D3400 could have metered with the older lenses if Nikon had not prevented this option,

Okay, I thought you meant the minimum (maximum?) aperture ring position detector.  D3400 does have the stop-down lever and is compatible with AF-S and later lenses.  So, it is incompatible with Ai AF, AF-D and Ai-P chips?
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on April 15, 2017, 21:48:44
Without video capabilities, Nikon DSLRs would be a much tougher sell. You wouldn't want that to happen.

I don't really care about 4k either, but for a different reason.  NHK (Japan Broadcasting Corporation) is starting the experimental broadcast of 8k.  They are striving for the official start of 8k broadcasting in 2020 in synch with the Tokyo Olympic games.  I guess the shelf life of 4k video machines will be shorter than the 1080/60p ones.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on April 15, 2017, 23:22:29
Well I struggle with the processing demands of individual frame 36MP images, let alone a 24 or 60 fps stream of them.

I have a 4K TV (55") but apart from the smoothness of the fonts in the text that is added to the footage, I can't really tell the difference between HD (nationally broadcast, netflix or blu-ray) and 4K footage (from Netflix) from a normal viewing distance where I would watch this size of a TV. Furthermore I am not in the slightest bothered by SD material on DVD compared to broadcast FullHD; if the content is good, either works fine for me (even excellently). For nature shows such as those made by BBC, FullHD is advantageous, as well as for some sports where there are many players visible at the same time, but for movies, I'm fine with DVD quality. I just don't see a purpose in going from FullHD to 4K or beyond even if the material was available to me. It's a different situation with photographs which can be printed large and viewed and studied for a long time, and let the details "sink in"; when watching films, I'm interested in the plot mainly, and wouldn't pay much attention to how much detail there is since the images are changing.

I can see the idea of using a 4K or higher TV set for slide-showing photographs though I prefer the permance of prints. Even for stills I find 24MP or 36MP adequate for any need I might have, and mostly shoot 20MP nowadays. 12MP was a little too little though. I think adding pixels is largely just a waste of storage space, computing power and thus also electrical power and natural resources. The internet is already consuming a large chunk of our energy and increasing the amount of data would necessarily entail increased need for the production of electricity that might exceed all other uses (and thus result in increased pollution and global warming).

Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Øivind Tøien on April 16, 2017, 00:03:35

Along the same lines an 8K sensor in a DSLR 2:3 aspect ratio would be about 43 MPix...
Obviously pretty excessive for normal  live broadcast.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on April 16, 2017, 00:07:57
Okay, I thought you meant the minimum (maximum?) aperture ring position detector.  D3400 does have the stop-down lever and is compatible with AF-S and later lenses.  So, it is incompatible with Ai AF, AF-D and Ai-P chips?

This model can *only* handle 'G' and 'E' lenses. However, as long as the aperture mechanism is linear (ie. AIS), the 'G' might be equivalent to 'P' CPUs. Meaning one could mount any 'F' mount lens and have it fully operational as long as the chip in it is 'G'.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on April 16, 2017, 00:13:26
I'm just talking about the plan of NHK.

Personally I would totally agree with Ilkka and Øivind.

I'm pretty much satisfied with the SD quality movies rented at iTunes Store viewed on my 19" computer monitor.

I saw a slide show of the images of various Nikon DSLRs, from D200 to D810 at the Nikon Showroom in Shinjuku shown on a 4K display.  The "lowly" D200 image looked no inferior to those from D810 in terms of resolution.  Yes, 4k is a 8MP image which is still outperformed by the 10MP D200.

So far as the quality of still image on a display is concerned, the bit depth may be more important.  I'm not sure if the professional 10bit 4:2:2 is adequate for stills.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on April 16, 2017, 00:18:29
This model can *only* handle 'G' and 'E' lenses. However, as long as the aperture mechanism is linear (ie. AIS), the 'G' might be equivalent to 'P' CPUs. Meaning one could mount any 'F' mount lens and have it fully operational as long as the chip in it is 'G'.

I see.  So, D3400 has gone one more step further to abandon the compatibility.  Now it (officially) only supports G, E and P lenses.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on April 16, 2017, 00:21:59
Not 'P' as in Ai-P or 'P'-type CPU. However, AFS/AF-P are all 'G' and the 'E'  is equivalent in terms of metering.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on April 16, 2017, 00:32:17
Not 'P' as in Ai-P or 'P'-type CPU. However, AFS/AF-P are all 'G' and the 'E'  is equivalent in terms of metering.

I meant AF-P as "P".  Apparently Nikon created another confusion by simplifying the compatibility.   :o :o :o
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: CS on April 16, 2017, 01:10:23
I'm just talking about the plan of NHK.

Personally I would totally agree with Ilkka and Øivind.

I'm pretty much satisfied with the SD quality movies rented at iTunes Store viewed on my 19" computer monitor.

I saw a slide show of the images of various Nikon DSLRs, from D200 to D810 at the Nikon Showroom in Shinjuku shown on a 4K display.  The "lowly" D200 image looked no inferior to those from D810 in terms of resolution.  Yes, 4k is a 8MP image which is still outperformed by the 10MP D200.

So far as the quality of still image on a display is concerned, the bit depth may be more important.  I'm not sure if the professional 10bit 4:2:2 is adequate for stills.

And a good thing that is, since the "lowly" D200 is my only DSLR.  ;)

I have been looking at the D300/D300s for the better viewfinder, AF, etc. More likely I'd go with the D300s to get away from CF cards and into the more readily available SDs, and for the S model's other upgrades. I don't normally print large enough to require 24-36 MPs. Not only that, but if I move up to a model with more MPs then I would have to look at upgrading a couple of lenses too, plus deal with the larger file sizes.

I've got a pro friend that shoots with 36 MPs, but he prints large, and has work hanging in museums and private collections, while my stuff just generally collects dust!  ;D
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on April 16, 2017, 01:42:50
And a good thing that is, since the "lowly" D200 is my only DSLR.  ;)

I have been looking at the D300/D300s for the better viewfinder, AF, etc. More likely I'd go with the D300s to get away from CF cards and into the more readily available SDs, and for the S model's other upgrades. I don't normally print large enough to require 24-36 MPs. Not only that, but if I move up to a model with more MPs then I would have to look at upgrading a couple of lenses too, plus deal with the larger file sizes.

I moved from D200 to Df and am very happy with it. No need to upgrade old lenses.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: David H. Hartman on April 16, 2017, 02:34:57
First 4K video is a yawner for me because I don't care about video, I'm a still shooter. I'll trade the video capabilities for non-cpu metering, which appears to be a very generous offer on my part.  ;D

I would think many dabble with video who might buy a microphone and not much more. They might shoot home movies and edit a bit with free Nikon software. These will want the video feature. I think today leaving video off most models would be a major error.

Dave who needs a focus puller. ;)
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on April 16, 2017, 04:09:32
And a good thing that is, since the "lowly" D200 is my only DSLR.  ;)

I have been looking at the D300/D300s for the better viewfinder, AF, etc. More likely I'd go with the D300s to get away from CF cards and into the more readily available SDs, and for the S model's other upgrades. I don't normally print large enough to require 24-36 MPs. Not only that, but if I move up to a model with more MPs then I would have to look at upgrading a couple of lenses too, plus deal with the larger file sizes.

I've got a pro friend that shoots with 36 MPs, but he prints large, and has work hanging in museums and private collections, while my stuff just generally collects dust!  ;D

Carl, you could then even skip D300/s unless your D200 fails.  I enjoyed the characteristic look of CCD even on the 4k screen that I mentioned.

As I often do panos, the 24MP files are burdensome.  I'm looking at a 28 or 35mm prime to use the 16MP 1.2x crop mode of D750.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: CS on April 16, 2017, 05:36:01
Carl, you could then even skip D300/s unless your D200 fails.  I enjoyed the characteristic look of CCD even on the 4k screen that I mentioned.

As I often do panos, the 24MP files are burdensome.  I'm looking at a 28 or 35mm prime to use the 16MP 1.2x crop mode of D750.

Well, I have been skipping the D300 for several years now!  ;)

However, it is the body that I wanted the D200 to be, so I may get one yet. As for 4K, yeah it's good for displaying still shots, I have a friend that bought a 52" to display his D7200 work on inhis living room. The shots go to the 4K TV  from one his Macs via a Raspberry Pi on a rotating basis. But, I'm with Ilkka on the 4K video stuff, not enough difference between that and a decent HDTV to matter, AFAIC. The difference that is  is easy to see is when you get HDR, and better color management can make a visual difference too. Of course all of the new models are going to be 4K, like it or not. I watch TV for content, and if that's good, I'm not paying that much attention to IQ.



Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: David H. Hartman on April 16, 2017, 07:07:15
I've got a pro friend that shoots with 36 MPs, but he prints large, and has work hanging in museums and private collections, while my stuff just generally collects dust!  ;D

Carl,

Don't sell yourself short: your work may not hang in museums but I've seen it over the years and I've enjoyed it.

I think a 16MP camera would be a better choice. The D300s is pretty nice but 12MP isn't much of a step up. 36MP was more than I wanted but I wanted the control set of the D300s with image sensor of the D4s but I couldn't have it. You might consider the Df as many here really like it. You might also consider the D700. It's the FX version of the D300 if you will. Anyway l recommend an FX camera for wide angle lenses and background rendition.

Dave
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: CS on April 16, 2017, 18:20:01
Carl,

Don't sell yourself short: your work may not hang in museums but I've seen it over the years and I've enjoyed it.

I think a 16MP camera would be a better choice. The D300s is pretty nice but 12MP isn't much of a step up. 36MP was more than I wanted but I wanted the control set of the D300s with image sensor of the D4s but I couldn't have it. You might consider the Df as many here really like it. You might also consider the D700. It's the FX version of the D300 if you will. Anyway l recommend an FX camera for wide angle lenses and background rendition.

Dave

The D300/300s provide the upgrades that interest me while not creating much larger files than my D200. For wide stuff I can get down to 18mm with my 12-24, although it's better at the 36mm long end. I've also had decent results from my 18-200 that would not serve as well mounted on a higher MP model. As I understand it some 18-200 copies were better than others, and I got a good one, as far as that type of lens goes. At 20 MPs and beyond my 12-24 f/4 would not be looking so great either.

FX is nice, but to get a body comparable to a D300/300s the costs are prohibitive for me. I prefer the size of the D300/300s over the D700, not to mention other differences.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: MILLIREHM on April 16, 2017, 22:06:33
I meant AF-P as "P".  Apparently Nikon created another confusion by simplifying the compatibility.   :o :o :o

So you are not meaning "Series E" lenses ;-)
Just increasing the confusion
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on April 16, 2017, 22:16:20
Series E lenses are Nikon not Nikkor .... They are AIS though.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on April 16, 2017, 22:18:03
So you are not meaning "Series E" lenses ;-)
Just increasing the confusion

Hope Nikon won't release another K...
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: MILLIREHM on April 16, 2017, 22:26:33
Series E lenses are Nikon not Nikkor .... They are AIS though.
I know, I was just kidding
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: David H. Hartman on April 17, 2017, 08:27:40
To make clear what type of lens one is referring to it's best to use the "term" as Nikon uses it: AF-P for a lens that focuses with a stepper motor and AI-P for a manual focus lens with a CPU.

I try to use Nikon's terms when writing as one must use them if doing an advanced search in Adobe Reader on a Nikon PDF user guide. It helps me when I search and I hope this helps others when they search. As an example searching for "slave" in the SB-800 manual got me zero hits. The term Nikon used in that manual was "remote." Unlike Google, Adobe Reader doesn't try to read your mind, "Did you mean..." Google search is my spelling checker off choice due to this feature.

Dave Hartman
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Asle F on April 17, 2017, 09:55:40
To make clear what type of lens one is referring to it's best to use the "term" as Nikon uses it: AF-P for a lens that focuses with a stepper motor and AI-P for a manual focus lens with a CPU.


P is also used before the cpu-age as in Nikkor-P, where the P is just telling there are 5 elements.

S is used in the same combinations, Nikkor-S, AI-S and AF-S

PC also means two very different things in PC-Nikkor and Nikkor-P·C
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on May 02, 2017, 13:59:45
Today I went to Nikon Showroom in Shinjuku, and found D7500 on display.

AF is fast and reliable, which is not surprising.  My D750 uses essentially the same AF sensor, and I can say that it is the very first reliable AF system of Nikon DSLR with denser sensors I have used so far.  The AF of two D7000s and a D610 I used was not as reliable.

The shutter sound of D7500 was simple and pleasing.  It felt like a quieter version of D500 sound.  The tilting mechanism of LCD felt a bit flimsy compared to that of D750 and D500.  I didn't feel the Sereebo (the carbon enforced thermo-plastic) shell cheap, but some may feel it otherwise.  The grip felt a bit small, and I would prefer the grip of D7200/7100.  Personally I have felt the grips of the monocoque bodies better than the conventional bodies, but D7500 could be the first exception.

My general impression of D7500 was that it could be placed between D5X00 and the conventional D7X00.  The difference between D7500 and D500 might be better defined than that between D7200 and D500.

Incidentally, the "OK" button can be re-programmed as the 100% magnification button in the review mode, which is a (deep) relief.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: David H. Hartman on May 02, 2017, 21:41:08
It sounds like the D7500 is a vsry nice camera for its market position. I do think Nikon's model naming is really out of whack.

Dave Hartman
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Hugh_3170 on May 03, 2017, 04:16:09
Hi Akira, thank you for your post re the D7500.

Did you get a chance to confirm/deny whether or not the D7500 can meter with manual focus non-CPU lenses and if it can in fact meter with them what your impressions were?

Thanks in anticipation.


Today I went to Nikon Showroom in Shinjuku, and found D7500 on display.

AF is fast and reliable, which is not surprising.  My D750 uses essentially the same AF sensor, and I can say that it is the very first reliable AF system of Nikon DSLR with denser sensors I have used so far.  The AF of two D7000s and a D610 I used was not as reliable.

The shutter sound of D7500 was simple and pleasing.  It felt like a quieter version of D500 sound.  The tilting mechanism of LCD felt a bit flimsy compared to that of D750 and D500.  I didn't feel the Sereebo (the carbon enforced thermo-plastic) shell cheap, but some may feel it otherwise.  The grip felt a bit small, and I would prefer the grip of D7200/7100.  Personally I have felt the grips of the monocoque bodies better than the conventional bodies, but D7500 could be the first exception.

My general impression of D7500 was that it could be placed between D5X00 and the conventional D7X00.  The difference between D7500 and D500 might be better defined than that between D7200 and D500.

Incidentally, the "OK" button can be re-programmed as the 100% magnification button in the review mode, which is a (deep) relief.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on May 03, 2017, 07:10:12
It sounds like the D7500 is a vsry nice camera for its market position. I do think Nikon's model naming is really out of whack.

Dave Hartman

Dave, maybe you should only look at the future, not the past.   :o
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on May 03, 2017, 07:20:15
Hi Akira, thank you for your post re the D7500.

Did you get a chance to confirm/deny whether or not the D7500 can meter with manual focus non-CPU lenses and if it can in fact meter with them what your impressions were?

Thanks in anticipation.

Hugh, I'm afraid I haven't confirmed if D7500 can meter with the non-CPU lenses.  According to the spec. sheet on Nikon website, non-CPU lenses can only be used in M mode, and non-Ai lenses cannot be used.

If D7500 could meter with the non-CPU lenses, M mode as well as A mode should be able to be used.  There seems to be no high hope for the meter working with non-CPU lenses...

When I will have chance to go to Nikon showroom before the user's manual become downloadable (not yet), I would be willing to ask about it and report the result here.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: richardHaw on May 03, 2017, 16:02:15
http://richardhaw.com/2017/05/03/review-nikon-d7500/

Played around with the D7500 this afternoon  :o :o :o
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on May 03, 2017, 19:59:17
Hmm. I'm wondering why you used the quiet continuous (Qc) drive mode to test for buffer? Qc is about 3fps in all Nikon DSLRs that I'm aware of that support this mode.  CH is the high speed continuous setting (up to 8fps on the D7500).
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: richardHaw on May 03, 2017, 20:47:35
Hmm. I'm wondering why you used the quiet continuous (Qc) drive mode to test for buffer? Qc is about 3fps in all Nikon DSLRs that I'm aware of that support this mode.  CH is the high speed continuous setting (up to 8fps on the D7500).

I mistook it for Ch!!!!  :o :o :o
been shooting film for too long!
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on May 06, 2017, 16:09:53
Today I revisited Nikon showroom in Shunjuku, Tokyo, and confirmed the (in)compatibility of D7500 with the manual lenses.  In short, it doesn't meter with the manual lenses.  If you want to use an MF lens (Ai or Ais or any adopted ones), you have to switch the camera to M mode and set the shutter speed on the camera and the aperture on the lens.  The only way to make sure of the exposure is to review the image and check out the histogram.

I also confirmed that D3400 doesn't meter even with AF-D Nikkors.  It doesn't have the switch that detects that the aperture ring is set to the highest value, and thus there is no way for the camera to know the setting of the aperture.  D3400 is the first Nikon DSLR that won't meter even with the lens with CPU.  You can, however, set the shutter speed on the camera in M mode, set the aperture on the lens and check out the exposure with the histogram in the review mode.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Hugh_3170 on May 06, 2017, 16:48:52
Akira, thanks for providing us with this feedback, even though it is unfortunately as I feared.

It is really quite sad that the D7500 pre-release documentation implied that there may be some metering support for non-cpu lenses, only for the reality to be different.  Maybe I should save up for a D500 or track down a good D7200.  The story about the D3400 seems even more of a dog in the manger situation (not that I am personally interested in buying that camera).

The whole Nikon lens compatibity issue is really quite a sordid mess.

Today I revisited Nikon showroom in Shunjuku, Tokyo, and confirmed the (in)compatibility of D7500 with the manual lenses.  In short, it doesn't meter with the manual lenses.  If you want to use an MF lens (Ai or Ais or any adopted ones), you have to switch the camera to M mode and set the shutter speed on the camera and the aperture on the lens.  The only way to make sure of the exposure is to review the image and check out the histogram.

I also confirmed that D3400 doesn't meter even with AF-D Nikkors.  It doesn't have the switch that detects that the aperture ring is set to the highest value, and thus there is no way for the camera to know the setting of the aperture.  D3400 is the first Nikon DSLR that won't meter even with the lens with CPU.  You can, however, set the shutter speed on the camera in M mode, set the aperture on the lens and check out the exposure with the histogram in the review mode.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on May 06, 2017, 16:55:26
High, you are welcome.  Apparently Nikon is going back to the ancient era when the camera had no built-in meter.   :o

Now I fear that the D620 (meaning: the entry level FX model) would offer the same (in)compatibility with the MF lenses...
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on June 05, 2017, 07:32:59
I just found that D7200 was marked as "obsolete item (discontinued)" on Nikon's Japanese website.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Øivind Tøien on June 07, 2017, 05:00:32
Yesterday I had to make a quick flight to Anchorage, our closest city, and the site I was to visit on this day trip prohibited bringing any cell phones or cameras, so I had to travel without. There is a good brick and mortar photo store in Anchorage, and they had just gotten the D7500 in - still in its plastic wrapping. I got very tempted..., having not been able to bring my own camera with me..., but resisted - party due to the let down it would be in transitioning from Capture NX2, and also torn between that body and D500. To begin with they did not want to take it out of the wrap, but when I had problem handling it within, they guy at the counter gave in. They also had a D500 and the comparison was between them and purely physical - so no picture taking or playing with menus or comparing images on screen.

Observations: D7500 ergonomics is improved in that shutter button has moved to where the finger tip is, not the middle of the outer finger segment as my D7100. There little space between grip and lens - not sure if it is less than D7100 though. I wish I had brought my gloves to check it out. The body felt neat with with its low weight, and somehow smaller than my D7100 (but I use my D7100 with an L-bracket permanently mounted). Plastic in rear part of body is no issue (with one possible reservation to follow), it feels quite sturdy and I did not really think about what the material was. If anything it will be an advantage when it is cold. I did not even think about the changed strap lug design.  I am not sure if there is a  change in weight distribution that affects the balance - I only handled it with a 20mm f/1.8 mounted, and most of the time there was no battery in the chamber - should be investigated further by others. When it comes to it one really does not have the full impression of balance before the L-bracket is mounted, which I think improved balance on my D7100.

The viewfinder is noticeably better on the D500. It is larger and perhaps brighter than the D7500. It felt easier finding the right manual focus with the 20mm (which has pretty smooth manual focus by the way). The AEL lock button has an OK position as an AF-On button. However the focus selector seemed quite low to be able to quickly move the focus point with eye to the viewfinder. (This was not checked with camera "alive") The stick on the D500 is very well located. Thinking back to my Iditarod photography, I think the sports shooter will will be better off with a D500.

The viewfinder eyepiece is located very close to the edge of the screen. I wonder if there will be a conflict with my adapted DK-17M with round eyecup. Of course DK-17M mounts directly to the D500 and more securely without need for the modified plastic adapter. The hinge for the screen on the D7500 is mounted lower, and looks flimsier. I am not sure if this is just appearance. There was no slack/wiggling to be noticed. It seemed to be able to be pulled out further - could be an advantage for astrophotography when pointing the lens vertically. The frameless design looks somewhat more "modern" but less robust.

Both seem to be very nice cameras and with acceptable ergonomics, but physically I think the D500 is clearly distanced from the D7500 even when not considering Nikon's "takes". The taller grip on the D500 does not compromise space for the little finger that is not completely comfortable on the D7000 series grip, nor under the grip like on the 5000 series bodies. The light weight of the D7500 is very attractive though when one are not into big heavy lenses...
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Valerie S. on June 08, 2017, 09:27:52
I think the new AF module in the D5/D500 might be beyond a good percentage of the people that have bought the D500. The Dynamic AF modes seem to be giving some people a lot of grief if they aren't used to trying to keep the primary AF point on the target with using Dynamic. The D7500 has an older system which is more forgiving in this aspect and is probably a better fit for the "average enthusiast". I'm old school and used to trying to keep the selected AF point on target, and not comfortable with one of the outer points running away with the focus selection. I have two D5s, a D500 and haven't upgraded my D500 (I use two D5 for work, the D500 being a backup in case of failure) to a D4s because I prefer the new AF module behaviour. Judging from the very, very limited of number of complaints on FM and DPR, it seems like many want an easier AF camera rather than a more precise system which requires a dedication in advancement of technique for some.
,
Had the D7500 been released at the same time as the D500, I think it would've been the more logical progression for many D7xxx users. The price point, the reluctance of enthusiast consumers to move onto XQD cards, the same sensor on both cameras, etc...
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on June 08, 2017, 14:04:45
I don't think the Multi-CAM 3500 is easier to use (I spent countless hours fine tuning cameras using that module to get them to focus fast primes properly, whereas the D5 has been a breeze with most lenses thanks to its auto AF fine tune) but it seems to be that cameras employing Multi-CAM 3500 have programming that has been helpful to some users and that has been changed in the new module. The dynamic area mode on Multi-CAM 3500 cameras seems to switch to and hold onto a closer subject if presented one momentarily, but the system doesn't switch as easily to a subject that is further away, so it has some preference for closer subjects. This can help when the subject is close to a complex detailed background but it makes it more difficult to focus on a subject which is not in the front but behind another subject (think of three runners approaching, if you want to focus on the one in the middle, this would be more difficult using the Multi-CAM 3500 dynamic). I've tried this many times and I could never figure out what the dynamic area modes were doing in the old cameras, until recently there have been these threads where the topic is discussed in depth.

With the Multi-CAM 20k cameras dynamic seems to do what the manual and sports AF technical guide says it does. The tendency to prefer a closer subject seems to have been removed from the programming of dynamic area AF and Nikon recommend the use of group area AF for situations where the subject is small in the frame, to avoid confusion with a complex detailed background, and they recommend the use of dynamic area AF for closer subjects which are large in the frame (in this case the background is less likely to be caught by the camera). This is discussed with quite many examples in the Sports AF technical guide and NPS tips pages. I think also auto area AF can be used to photograph distant subjects against complex backgrounds, in my experience both group area and auto area work reliably in such situations.

When I'm photographing a group of long distance runners, I may have a specific runner that I want to focus on and follow and I would prefer to be able to start shooting as early as possible, using a large aperture to isolate the subject at distance and then take a sequence of shots. For this the old dynamic area AF would not be of help because of its hesitation to focus on a subject behind another; my experience trying to do this with the D810 was frustrating. In the D5 there is no such problem and the camera obeys the photographer and focuses on the subject at and slightly around the primary point, without preference to a closer subject. If you do want closer subject priority the group area AF and auto area AF seem to handle those situations quite well.

Furthermore thanks to the cross-type points in the outermost columns of the Multi-CAM 20k sensor array, focusing on a face in a vertical shot where the subject is placed near the top is reliable with the D5 which it never was with Multi-CAM 3500 series sensors which have all the cross type points concentrated in the middle of the frame. A lot of the time the Multi-CAM 3500 cameras would focus on the hair instead of the face in such situations,  even with single point the area of sensitivity was too broad especially for backlit subjects (where the hair was bright and contrasty). The additional cross type points in the Multi-CAM 20k have been the biggest help for me as a lot of my photography involves vertical shots of people and the smaller area of coverage of each point and the cross-type nature of the sensors means I can really focus on the face. I think for users of f/2.8, f/4 and smaller aperture lenses the newer generations of Multi-CAM 3500 (Advanced and Advanced II) have been excellent already but for f/1.4 and f/2 shooting the Multi-CAM 20k really does help a lot.

For DX I think the positioning of the additional cross-type columns is not ideal as they're quite close to the edge of the frame and at least I wouldn't place the face so close to the edge. But there are few complaints about this so I guess users are happy with the broader coverage.

Anyway I think the D7500's AF system choice is as expected, as Nikon likely wanted the D7500 and D500 to be clearly different from each other. Likely Multi-CAM 20k would have made the camera bigger and I think they want to please people who want a compact, less expensive option with still quite high performance.

For those who have problems with dynamic area AF in Multi-CAM 20k cameras, some strategies may help. First, choose group area AF or auto area AF for subjects small in the frame if there is a complex background. If the subject is large in the frame and a complex detailed background not directly behind, dynamic area AF should work if used with single point technique. I typically choose the area size according to my precision in holding the primary point over the subject and the size of the desired target area in the subject (face of the subject in people photography). I think some practice may be necessary to get used to the differences - for me it wasn't difficult once I got the thought "make every effort to hold primary point on the subject's face" in my head.

On Nikon's side, they could provide some assistance in the way of offering a closest-subject priority mode as a custom function option (ON/OFF) in dynamic area AF (to mimic Multi-CAM 3500 dynamic area AF behavior),  add 9-point dynamic to the D500 as it is on the D5, and provide better documentation of AF right in the manual with some other examples outside of sports photography (it seems most of the complaints come from bird in flight photographers, so some advice for those photographers on settings to use would probably help).
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: ArendV on June 08, 2017, 14:46:58
Thanks a lot Ilkka for your clear and practical explanation (as usual) of the different way of working of the two AF modules, really appreciated !
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on June 13, 2017, 14:03:20
Dpreview have a quite positive account on Dan Bracaglia's experience shooting with the D7500.

It is interesting to see how experiences differ on the use of Auto AF Fine Tune. I personally have had mostly very positive experience with it on the D5; only one of my fast AF-S lenses produced a result which was clearly not correct but it was easy to find the correct setting in practical shooting with that lens, and I've been very happy with the settings Auto AF Fine tune found for my other lenses (I do repeat the process several times to see how much variability there is and to find the mean). With the 70-200/2.8E FL and TC-20E III the Auto AF Fine tune didn't work at all (it gave an error message and I proceeded to fine tune that combination with earlier methods).  I got great results with Auto AF Fine Tune with the same zoom lens and TC-14E III at 280mm.  Maybe the maximum aperture of the lens has something to do with it.

Occasionally some users on forums have complained that auto AF Fine Tune doesn't work for them. In Dan Braglia's account on the D7500 he seemed happy with its performance on prime lenses (e.g. 85/1.8D). Anyway for me this has been a great feature which saved a lot of time when starting to use the D5.

Bracaglia seems to like Nikon's 3D Tracking and goes on and on about it in the article. I guess it greatly depends on the subject matter, how well it works; in my experience it doesn't work well in situations where the main subject being tracked is temporarily occluded by another person or when the subject turns away from the camera; in those cases the tracking can slip from the target. However, it is easy enough to restart tracking. Otherwise it seems to work well and has reached a level of maturity where it has become a  reasonable tool to use when it fits the situation.

There appears to be tap to AF in the live view now, in the D7500. I wonder how precise it is and if it finds the closest face to focus on if face priority AF is on.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on June 17, 2017, 02:28:30
Sidenote:

Yesterday I confirmed the difference between EN-EL15 and EN-EL15a which comes with D7500 and has replaced EN-EL15.

EN-EL15a is the same as the Li-ION 20 version of EN-EL15 that fixed the shorter life problem with D500.  Nikon changed the name to EN-EL15a to avoid the confusion of the Li-ION 05 and -20 versions under the same name.

The capacity of EN-EL15a is 1,900mAh which is the same as that of EN-EL15.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: David H. Hartman on June 17, 2017, 04:20:46
One down side I recently noticed is USB2 rather than 3. I find it difficult to understand any newly released camera that only offers USB2.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on June 17, 2017, 10:09:38
One down side I recently noticed is USB2 rather than 3. I find it difficult to understand any newly released camera that only offers USB2.

Maybe it's a space thing; an USB 3 port requires a wider connector? Sony A9 also uses USB 2 instead of 3.

I think  that it's safer to use a card reader to transfer data (imagine camera falling off a table when pulled from the USB cord) but if you want wired tethering then USB 3 would be great to have. Furthermore in an environment where the photographer is shooting from a fixed position, a fast cabled connection to laptop seems a reasonable way to go.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 17, 2017, 12:16:03
Akira, thanks for providing us with this feedback, even though it is unfortunately as I feared.

It is really quite sad that the D7500 pre-release documentation implied that there may be some metering support for non-cpu lenses, only for the reality to be different.  Maybe I should save up for a D500 or track down a good D7200.  The story about the D3400 seems even more of a dog in the manger situation (not that I am personally interested in buying that camera).

The whole Nikon lens compatibity issue is really quite a sordid mess.


I do not know how far away you are from the target D500. After one year I can say she is a real winner. Is there no used market of these yet?

The only caveats are:

Take your time to learn the complex but ingenious AF

And take your time to learn post processing the files.

I am not perfect in either, far from it, but the results I get already are absolutely stunning.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 17, 2017, 12:32:34
Thank you Ilkka for you post #134.

I can confirm that the multi cam 20k is the best AF System I used so far and I use 1.4 and 1.8 lenses in 99% of cases.

I do not complain about the AF point position of the D500 also in Portrait mode Portraits
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Hugh_3170 on June 17, 2017, 17:17:07
Frank, thanks for your feedback.  Also Ilkka and others on this thread for their useful inputs.

Prices here for the D500 have come down by about 10%, where as the D7500 is still up at its introductory price, so the D500 is the way I will go.

I do not know how far away you are from the target D500. After one year I can say she is a real winner. Is there no used market of these yet?

The only caveats are:

Take your time to learn the complex but ingenious AF

And take your time to learn post processing the files.

I am not perfect in either, far from it, but the results I get already are absolutely stunning.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: chambeshi on July 02, 2017, 13:15:55
Review of the D7500
https://nikonrumors.com/2017/07/01/nikon-d7500-real-life-review.aspx/#more-113065
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: David Franks on July 10, 2018, 14:24:06
Ended up buying a D7500 and for all the negatives surrounding this camera I do have to say one thing - it takes one hell of a fine photo. I really like it - its like a D7200 on steroids and the missing 2nd memory card really doesn't bother me. I've owned plenty of cameras that only had one CF or one SD slot and never had a an issue. It feels great in my hand, the view finder is big bright and awesome, the raw buffer kicks butt, the back LCD panel can finally be configured to operate the way I like, and the list goes on... I just might finally retire my D300s and buy another one.  8)
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: David Franks on July 10, 2018, 15:41:33
A few from the kids ball practice using the D7500 and Nikon 70-200mm F/4.0

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/973/27254775177_4b38d558af_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/HwpR7R)T-Ball (https://flic.kr/p/HwpR7R) by Images by David Franks (https://www.flickr.com/photos/flightlevelphoto/), on Flickr

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/947/27254794177_1877cb9c57_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/HwpWLr)T-Ball (https://flic.kr/p/HwpWLr) by Images by David Franks (https://www.flickr.com/photos/flightlevelphoto/), on Flickr

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/908/28252693418_0500227539_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/K3ArrL)T-Ball (https://flic.kr/p/K3ArrL) by Images by David Franks (https://www.flickr.com/photos/flightlevelphoto/), on Flickr
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on July 10, 2018, 16:02:01
I am glad to hear that you're happy with it.

I would get the D7500 but find the no metering without CPU a difficult to swallow compromise. I notice the price has come down and perhaps I will consider it one of these days.

I think for many users the D7x00 is ideal especially if shooting some telephoto action on a "normal" budget. The 70-200/4 is also excellent.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: David Franks on July 10, 2018, 17:53:38
...no metering without CPU...

Not sure I understand, can you explain?
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Peter Forsell on July 10, 2018, 18:01:16
Not sure I understand, can you explain?

I'm not Ilkka, but he is referring to the fact that the exposure meter is not functional in D7500 when used with manual focus lenses that lack the lens cpu. There is more discussion about it further up in the thread.

It is a moot point for people who don't possess any legacy non-cpu lenses.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: David Franks on July 10, 2018, 18:28:49
Ok, thanks. Is the same true for other new bodies? Just wondering.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on July 10, 2018, 19:19:10
Ok, thanks. Is the same true for other new bodies? Just wondering.

D5x00 and D3x00 bodies won't meter with non-CPU lenses, and the current D3400 won't meter even with AF, AF-D or AiP lenses with CPU, due to the omission of the tab that detects the aperture ring set to the minimum.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on July 10, 2018, 22:57:52
D500, D850, D5 all meter with Ai(-S) lenses as well as when there is no meter coupling.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Tejpor on February 20, 2019, 23:29:14
Can somebody tell, if the EFCS works from LiveView?
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Akira on February 21, 2019, 07:14:02
D500, D850, D5 all meter with Ai(-S) lenses as well as when there is no meter coupling.

All three models has aperture coupling tab.  They should be designed to detect the minimum setting of the aperture rings.  D5x00 or D3x00 don't even have the aperture coupling tab.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on February 21, 2019, 10:44:12
Can somebody tell, if the EFCS works from LiveView?

I don't know about the D7500 specifically, but in the D810 EFCS works in the following way in LV: you still have to have the custom function for EFCS set and the drive mode in M-UP mode. You press the shutter release twice, in and out of LV the process is the same. The first button press doesn't apparently do anything but they made it so that the usage is the same ... the second activates the electronic shutter and closes via mechanical shutter. Outside of LV, the first button press opens the mechanical shutter and the second the electronic shutter (where the exposure begins).

In the D850 this is different; you can use EFCS either in Q, Qc or M-UP modes, and in Q, Qc mode you only have to press once (viewfinder or LV mode), and in M-UP mode you have to press twice in viewfinder mode, and once in LV. So now it works more closely as you'd expect, there is only one button press in LV.

I use MC-30A remote cord in conjunction with LV when I need EFCS. In viewfinder photography, I sometimes use Qc to get the benefits of EFCS, e.g., when using the 300 PF hand held. If I don't have the MC-30A packed in the bag for some reason, and if I'm using a tripod, I turn on Qc and exposure delay mode and press the shutter button with my finger. However, Qc uses EFCS only with the D850 (of the Nikon DSLRs), as far as I know.

I don't know whether one or two button presses are required with M-UP in LV mode in the D7500. But for sure you can use EFCS in LV, but you might argue that it's not the most convenient if you don't like to use remote control.
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Matthew Currie on February 21, 2019, 18:11:46
All three models has aperture coupling tab.  They should be designed to detect the minimum setting of the aperture rings.  D5x00 or D3x00 don't even have the aperture coupling tab.

On the D3200, and I assume others of its ilk, when a manual lens is installed, it returns a "lens not attached" error in all but manual mode, where the meter is entirely switched off.  I believe this is the same on the D7500.

The D7100 (which I think is a pretty typical AI-compatible DSLR) detects the minimum, but not by number, only relatively.  It meters by offset from the minimum, but only the "non-cpu lens" setting, which does not affect the meter, states what that minimum is. 

It will meter correctly with an uncoupled lens only if that lens does not have an auto aperture. 
Title: Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
Post by: Tejpor on February 21, 2019, 23:14:40
I don't know about the D7500 specifically, but in the D810 EFCS works in the following way in LV: you still have to have the custom function for EFCS set and the drive mode in M-UP mode. You press the shutter release twice, in and out of LV the process is the same. The first button press doesn't apparently do anything but they made it so that the usage is the same ... the second activates the electronic shutter and closes via mechanical shutter. Outside of LV, the first button press opens the mechanical shutter and the second the electronic shutter (where the exposure begins).

In the D850 this is different; you can use EFCS either in Q, Qc or M-UP modes, and in Q, Qc mode you only have to press once (viewfinder or LV mode), and in M-UP mode you have to press twice in viewfinder mode, and once in LV. So now it works more closely as you'd expect, there is only one button press in LV.

I use MC-30A remote cord in conjunction with LV when I need EFCS. In viewfinder photography, I sometimes use Qc to get the benefits of EFCS, e.g., when using the 300 PF hand held. If I don't have the MC-30A packed in the bag for some reason, and if I'm using a tripod, I turn on Qc and exposure delay mode and press the shutter button with my finger. However, Qc uses EFCS only with the D850 (of the Nikon DSLRs), as far as I know.

I don't know whether one or two button presses are required with M-UP in LV mode in the D7500. But for sure you can use EFCS in LV, but you might argue that it's not the most convenient if you don't like to use remote control.

Thank you Ilkka! I believe the D7500 is from the same generation as the D500 and D810, so you are likely correct. Did I understand you correctly? One must activate shutter release twice in MUP release (that is ok) but: (1) the mirror hopefully never cycles during LV shooting combined with MUP? (2) is blackout minimal during the shutter release presses in that MUP mode?