NikonGear'23

Gear Talk => Lens Talk => Topic started by: Airy on August 16, 2016, 18:34:59

Title: Found a Noct...
Post by: Airy on August 16, 2016, 18:34:59
... AIS, 9-bladed, ser no 190xxx, very good condition, functioning and performance seem ok.
Price tag 3950, talked down to 3000€ (I know the boutique to try and sell at high prices, so I did not hesitate).

Hmmm... still hesitating...

Recent bargains, anyone (apart from the Fierce Bear of the North, who seems to be lucky) ?
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: longzoom on August 16, 2016, 20:15:27
I have 2 of them.  The first one is 7-bladed version, beaten almost to death. I used to fix it myself - loose helicoid, oiled blades, so on...  The second one is brand new 9-bladed last version, never used. Couple years ago have tried them on D800. Put them back, on good dry shelf... Will keep them forever, for nostalgic reason of stone age film era  they were created for... In my private experience, my third-party 50mm 1.4 AF lens is universe ahead, in every measurable department one can imagine. 4x times  cheaper, 2x times bigger and heavier... It is clearly understandable, your way will vary, as well as your experience and look on such things... LZ   
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: pluton on August 16, 2016, 20:34:30
As a recognized connoisseur of the normal lens focal lengths, you should have one.  As long as you can sell it for approximately what you paid for it, you are safe.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Tristin on August 16, 2016, 20:39:45
If it is in excellent condition, the price is typical.  I am certain you are well aware of the Noct and do not need anyone to sell you on it.  I can't blame you for hesitating on the price.  Worst case scenario if you purchase it; you find it not worth the money and re-sell it for negligible, if any, loss.  Let us know how it all pns out. :-)
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Geerts on August 16, 2016, 20:46:02
Price of the Noct knows a downward trend.  Three Ais versions were sold in July on ebay around 2.400 euro. 
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: longzoom on August 16, 2016, 20:54:11
Price is staying unmovable till new version coming. It may happen at any time, as it is with new 105. Nobody predicted such innovation, so old 105/2 is losing 30% immediately, and dropping is not final. LZ
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Danulon on August 16, 2016, 21:03:00
And what is the likelihood of another Noct 1.2?

Afaik the 58 1.4 AF-S already was supposed to be its replacement.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Fons Baerken on August 16, 2016, 21:14:22
The current price in Holland is around €2500, some 5 years it was below 2k, for me that is way too expensive, even for a voigtlander 125, which is much dearer to me.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Frank Fremerey on August 16, 2016, 21:53:15
I have been thinking about the topic for a while: I will wait until I find a Neo-Noct for unter 900€, then get one.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Airy on August 16, 2016, 21:59:03
Thanks all for feedback. Indeed, since I am fond of standard lenses, I am very tempted to add this very special one to the inventory (the last two additions were the 50/2 AI and the Zeiss Milvus 50/2, both second hand, yesss). Problem is, I am not even sure to use it more often, or with more satisfaction, than either of the two aforementioned lenses that only cost a fraction of the Noct. The 50/2 buy is all Fons' fault, by the way, and I do not regret it. The Noct is certainly overpriced, if only imaging qualities matter. We're paying for the legend.

Buying and reselling seems a safe option though, since the likelyhood of any similar MF lens to be produced is close to zero - Zeiss' closest matches have been released twice (Otus and Milvus versions), Samyang released a 50/1.4 that is not bad...

And concerning the MF standard lenses, I have yet to find a long nose 50/1.8 AIS.

I still have the Neo-noct as an option (a second hand one is still available, it seems...), but at 1100€.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: David H. Hartman on August 16, 2016, 22:03:26
Is acquiring a Noct the equivalent of achieving one's philosopher's stone?

Dave the Pauper

Perhaps if I can achieve my philosopher's stone I too could own a Noct...
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Airy on August 16, 2016, 22:35:07
ah ah not really

getting a 50/2 AI and enjoying it also works and costs less

In any case the aim is to achieve something with the lens that other lenses won't do. With the 50/2, the answer is simple, it has got a 6-blade diaphragm with all consequences. With the 50/1.4 SC you get that "toothpaste" bokeh on highlights, etc etc
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Jacques Pochoy on August 17, 2016, 00:07:52
And concerning the MF standard lenses, I have yet to find a long nose 50/1.8 AIS.

Next year, at the first Week End of June, try to get to Paris and to Bièvre's photo-fair (since you won't have the "braderie" this year), you'll find the "long nose" cheap (I got one there, with my 50/2 AI and some other lenses)... :-)
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Airy on August 17, 2016, 00:13:22
Great. By the way, how does it compare with the 50/2 ? (possibly in another thread)
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Jacques Pochoy on August 17, 2016, 00:20:13
I can't really decide... :o I'll do some pictures and post in another thread at the end of the week... :P
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: JJChan on August 17, 2016, 01:21:26
Buying and reselling seems a safe option though, since the likelyhood of any similar MF lens to be produced is close to zero - Zeiss' closest matches have been released twice (Otus and Milvus versions), Samyang released a 50/1.4 that is not bad...

And concerning the MF standard lenses, I have yet to find a long nose 50/1.8 AIS.

I still have the Neo-noct as an option (a second hand one is still available, it seems...), but at 1100€.

Airy - since you've corrupted me to getting the Zeiss 50/2 let me go the other way!

I have the Noct & the Neo- Noct.

For sure the Neo Noct is good - the AF really helps especially as my eyes do not seem as good every year. But the real Noct has some subjective edge in micro contrast and finer details. It has significant field curvature but what is in focus is very sharp and gives high detail. It's like having the really sharp crispness of the Sigma 50ART but with character and presence (Sigma has almost none). The Noct is also really nice to use - it will still be around even when the AF motor of the NeoNoct has died and plastic has cracked.

No one can say whether that is all worth the considerable asking price. I had doubts when I first got mine but now I wish I had bought a spare when they were more affordable! In short, I don't think you will regret it.

I'll try to post some later (v busy this week).

Ps I have long nose 50/1.8 which came with my FE2 thrown in free. Have short nose that came with FG bought at stall. Not sure that long nose is way more special? Will have to investigate when have time!

Good luck JJ
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Akira on August 17, 2016, 01:55:43
Airy, have you considered Milvis 50/1.4?  It's way cheaper than the Noct you are looking at, it's still fast and apparently it's unprecedented at least here in NG (ahhh I miss that devil emoticon!).
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Airy on August 17, 2016, 05:56:56
Thanks JJ, I'm still pondering and you are not helping ;)
Akira, that other Zeiss lens is interesting but big and heavy. Moreover, I've not seen any 2nd hand sample for sale. Not yet.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Fons Baerken on August 17, 2016, 07:12:05
Df 55mm f/1.2 @ f11

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8745/28342253273_f249314960_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Airy on August 17, 2016, 08:21:00
55 or 58 ?
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 17, 2016, 09:21:54
There is a 55/1.2 Nikkor as well, the predecessor to the current 50/1.2. Fons probably used that one. Like most 50-58 lenses, it is pretty sharp once stopped down a bit.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 17, 2016, 09:39:42
I don’t have the neo-Noct, but I do have the original. What I value in the Noct Nikkor compared to the charts I read from the new version is the much greater central sharpness. If you look at the MTF charts, the difference between the two lenses as regard the center is large. The fact that the neo-Noct is flatter and sharper in the corners does not matter to me because I value the field curvature of the Noct. The original Noct has a style that is probably largely caused by its faults, IMO. I like that style. As for its heft, holding one in your hand, well, what’s not to like?
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 17, 2016, 10:12:28
There is much more to the Noct than its score on test charts. One has to use the lens to appreciate how different it really is from the ordinary crowd. If it is always set to very small apertures, its special character is lost and it behaves like any fast 'normal' lens. Open it up wide and play with it there and magic can result provided the photographer can deliver the required ingredients.

It is unfortunate this lens has become a collector's item and price on the second-hand market is disproportionally high. On the flip side, any collector trying to use it will likely be disappointed (due to lack of understanding its character?) and might get rid of the lens, thus there seems to be an endless stream of Nocts for sale.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: longzoom on August 17, 2016, 13:20:04
There is much more to the Noct than its score on test charts. One has to use the lens to appreciate how different it really is from the ordinary crowd. If it is always set to very small apertures, its special character is lost and it behaves like any fast 'normal' lens. Open it up wide and play with it there and magic can result provided the photographer can deliver the required ingredients.

It is unfortunate this lens has become a collector's item and price on the second-hand market is disproportionally high. On the flip side, any collector trying to use it will likely be disappointed (due to lack of understanding its character?) and might get rid of the lens, thus there seems to be an endless stream of Nocts for sale.
. Agree, absolutely. Unfortunately, I have no use for the Noct wide open, for what it was directly created, to work on films. It is not working for me on D800-810 sensors wide open, at all. Much, much better, incomparable better, I would say, is Otus 55. This one is, practically, flat field lens. For the same amount of money, even cheaper, sometimes! It appears on E-Bay, in brand new conditions, for $2700-3000, as from UK right now! It is my own opinion, of course, for what this forum was created, I believe.  THX!  LZ
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on August 17, 2016, 13:24:52
I recall the Noct-Nikkor was extremely expensive when it was still available new, in its last years; the current second hand price is close to the inflation adjusted new price of the mid 1990s.

I like the AF-S 58/1.4 as the autofocus makes it practical for me to use for events and the colours have nice "pop" thanks to the nano coating. I am fairly sure I could not focus the 58/1.2 reliably. Perhaps with the latest viewfinders this might be possible, but the cost of the lens is an issue.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 17, 2016, 13:55:20
One could turn the argument inside-out and claim the acid test for a viewfinder is whether a Noct can be reliably focused with it. Most modern cameras will fail this test as their finders are too fine-grained and bright (designed for AF).

The Df is OK though, and with the K3 screen installed even better. The D500 usually allows a precise focus with the Nocts although there is the occasional glitch. My Fuji S5Pro has not a very bright finder and focusing the Noct is quite easy; however, as my camera is modified to be broad band, final focus might be perfect in finder and off at the film plane (in practice, no LV with the Fuji). I guess recent cameras such as D610, D810, and the D4/5 series will allow LV focusing with a Noct.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Erik Lund on August 17, 2016, 14:31:13
The build quality and feel of the Noct-Nikkor is really nice and it will hold up to most - For a long time it was more or les my standard walk around lens. Highly recommended as it is a joy to use even on the high MP cameras of today - It really shines.

Quite clearly the Noct-Nikkor is a very special lens and there is nothing currently that has the same performance. The 58mm f/1.4 AFS comes close in overall performance and IMHO you would be very hard pressed to see the difference between the two. The curvature of field is still there to some extent up close, sombrero effect - Not an issue for most photographic assignments where you would pull out these lenses... Bokeh is so similar - Outstanding.

The Otus is a clinical correct lens, more similar to the Micro-Nikkor lenses with flat field and high resolution performance.

Noct-Nikkor MF performance is quite OK on a D3 IMHO

The 58mm f/1.4 AFS is a slow focusing lens like the other 1.4 G lenses- except the new 105mm which should be very fast by just looking at the design,,,
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: chambeshi on August 17, 2016, 14:46:21
I recall the Noct-Nikkor was extremely expensive when it was still available new, in its last years; the current second hand price is close to the inflation adjusted new price of the mid 1990s.

There was discussion earlier this year on NG on comparing the two [Noct vs Neo-Noct]. It is unlikely i will ever own a Noct as too many other priorities for wide-angle and telephoto glassware!

Given the precision craftsmanship by Nikon on each lens, one way to appreciate a Noct-Nikkor is as a bespoke lens in its own class. And as argued above, the value of a Noct of decent quality is unlikely to depreciate.

These two tests are useful...and see more background following....

https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-noct-nikkor-58mm-f1-2

https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-58mm-f1-4g

This story was told to me by Ernie Mastroianni, then photo editor of Birder's Worldmagazine, in September 2006:
"About 10 years ago, a photographer at the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (I was a photo editor there for 19 years) offered to sell me his Noct-Nikkor 58mm f/1.2 lens. He knew I was into astrophotography and thought that I might be interested in a high speed lens. He was right. I came up with the $175 that he needed and proceeded to enjoy taking pictures of the Milky Way with 20-second exposures, with no tracking and no star trails. It was an excellent portrait lens too, showing fantastic Bokeh and producing some excellent results for group and family pictures, being sharp from edge-to-edge.
But as I migrated to digital, I found that the lens was a bit too long and it could not be converted to a D-lens. It sat on my shelf until I noticed that someone sold one on eBay for about $1,200, although I was not sure if it was a scam.
So I put my own lens up for sale, hoping I might get a legitimate offer of about $1,000. The bidding immediately passed $1,000, but it was all from folks with new identities or very low bidding histories. One bidder, with a big 0 for a history, kept bidding it up beyond anyone else, until it climbed over $2,000. Too good to be true, I thought, and this looks like a scam.
So I wrote the bidder, and said I was wise to the usual tricks, that he better pay with a money order from a real bank and it has to be for the exact amount. I won't ship to Indonesia and I'll hold the lens till the check clears, blah blah blah.
The bidder wrote back. He was a buyer for the Princeton Particle Physics Laboratory, and he needed the lens for some exotic physics experiment. His scientists said that only the 58mm f/1.2 Noct-Nikkor would work. Not the 55mm, not the 50mm. Just the 58. His story checked out, the lab was real. He needed my 58mm lens and the US government was willing to pay whatever it took. In fact, he needed SIX of the lenses. He was happy to hear from me, because he was getting hounded by scam artists who were trying to sell lenses that they did not have. He had no eBay identity because of government regulations.
So he bought the lens for about $2,100, which financed my Nikon D80 and a high-end pair of astronomy binoculars. I later saw that he shelled out about $2,600 for some other Noct-Nikkors that did not appear to be as pristine as the lens I sold him.
A fun story, and I got some cool stuff out of it, but to tell you the truth, I do miss that lens. There was something about it that always produced sharp, saturated images." source >> http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/58.htm

Nikkor - One Thousand and One Nights:
http://www.nikkor.com/story/0016/

"From manufacturing to inspection, they spent so much time and effort on this lens."
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: JJChan on August 17, 2016, 15:14:56
Df 55mm f/1.2 @ f11


That's beautiful Fons
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Fons Baerken on August 17, 2016, 17:21:06
thank you JJ
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: chris dees on August 17, 2016, 18:21:36
............
The 58mm f/1.4 AFS is a slow focusing lens like the other 1.4 G lenses- except the new 105mm which should be very fast by just looking at the design,,,

The 105E has more or less the same speed as the 85/1.4G.
So a little faster but not nearly as fast as eq. 70-200 (every version).
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Erik Lund on August 17, 2016, 19:48:11
Sounds disappointing, Preproduction or end product?
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: chris dees on August 17, 2016, 20:07:33
Sounds disappointing, Preproduction or end product?

Preproduction.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: the solitaire on August 17, 2016, 21:49:06
I do not expect
Nikon to exchange the AF technology at this stage. Production models will very likely use the same slow AF motors
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 17, 2016, 21:51:03
My experience with pre-production samples and AF is they are quite similar to the later production samples in terms of AF speed. However, cameras can change a lot from pre- to production level. Thus firmware comes into play here as well.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Koerner on August 18, 2016, 20:41:30
I am sure that (at some point within the next year) I am going to pick up a Noct--if, for no other reason, to say I have one :)

What I am most curious about is the difference between the Ai and Ai-S (standardized) version.

According to Roland Vink's page (http://www.photosynthesis.co.nz/nikon/lenses.html), the main difference seems to be the Ai-Noct only has 7 aperture blades but 230° of focus throw ... whereas the Ai-S Noct. has 9 aperture blades but only 140° of focus throw.

I really don't want to buy both of them (but may, eventually), but I am curious as to which is the better lens ... according to those who have used both.

Jack
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 18, 2016, 21:03:32
Except for the number of aperture blades, which could cause some differences in bokeh, there is really very little to tell the two models apart. Plus Nocts tend to be used more or less wide open anyway.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Koerner on August 18, 2016, 21:28:08
Except for the number of aperture blades, which could cause some differences in bokeh, there is really very little to tell the two models apart. Plus Nocts tend to be used more or less wide open anyway.

Do you find the extra 90° of focus throw in the Ai (230°) an advantage over the Ai-S (only 140°) or a disadvantage?

For MF lenses, I tend to prefer the greater over the lesser ...
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 18, 2016, 21:37:34
To be honest, I never thought about the difference at all. So I guess it is not a major issue either way. The Noct either is *in* focus, or not.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Erik Lund on August 18, 2016, 21:45:22
The build quality is different, the Ai is build like a tank,,, the Ais more lightweight
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Koerner on August 18, 2016, 21:58:07
The build quality is different, the Ai is build like a tank,,, the Ais more lightweight

Thanks.

I think I will go for a mint Ai ...
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Roland Vink on August 18, 2016, 22:08:36
AI Noct: 480g, AIS Noct: 465g, so a little lighter but not by much. The build is different (most AI and AIS are mechanically different in spite of the similar appearance) but I wouldn't say one is substantially better than the other...

As for the focus throw, I have the AI 55/1.2 which has a similar form factor and long focus throw as the AI Noct, I find the focus throw is a bit too long, very slow to focus from infinity to close. I think 140° of the AIS Noct should be about right (although I agree that many other AIS lenses have too short focus throw)
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Koerner on August 19, 2016, 01:18:28
AI Noct: 480g, AIS Noct: 465g, so a little lighter but not by much. The build is different (most AI and AIS are mechanically different in spite of the similar appearance) but I wouldn't say one is substantially better than the other...

As for the focus throw, I have the AI 55/1.2 which has a similar form factor and long focus throw as the AI Noct, I find the focus throw is a bit too long, very slow to focus from infinity to close. I think 140° of the AIS Noct should be about right (although I agree that many other AIS lenses have too short focus throw)

Thanks for your feedback, Roland, and thanks also for a great resource in your website. (A lot of work for the benefit of many!)

I still will probably go with the Ai, but maybe not.

I try to use a tripod, as often as possible, with my D810 + MF lenses.

The extra focus throw is always helpful in these instances (though, as you say, not so much if hand-holding).
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Erik Lund on August 19, 2016, 08:27:24
The focus threads of the Ai are longer, contact length and area, i.e. there is a world of difference in the mechanical design.
Someone might not think so looking at the weight or at the apparent identical outer lens casing and if a qualified service lubes the lens focus threads they give the Ai a lighter lube and you wont be able to tell the difference in focus drag,,,
Yes same applies to most AI vs Ais lenses of same focal length and aperture I have see open.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Koerner on August 19, 2016, 14:48:12
The focus threads of the Ai are longer, contact length and area, i.e. there is a world of difference in the mechanical design.
Someone might not think so looking at the weight or at the apparent identical outer lens casing and if a qualified service lubes the lens focus threads they give the Ai a lighter lube and you wont be able to tell the difference in focus drag,,,
Yes same applies to most AI vs Ais lenses of same focal length and aperture I have see open.

As someone who's seen the inner architecture, which version would you say is "made better," internally?
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Erik Lund on August 19, 2016, 20:29:50
"Better" is difficult to comment on since it depends on individual value,,,

For modern cameras especially with a CPU from Bjørn the Ais with the linear aperture movement is better

The Ai is the real old school MF lens design; Strong build

The aperture opening of the Ai is pretty round stopped down slightly maybe 2/3 of stop or so

The Ais is more desirable and as far as I can tell more expensive
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: JJChan on August 20, 2016, 16:27:20
I did some shots to try to show some of the character of this lens - apologies if not great but it was starting to rain and I had to hurry.
Here are handheld (I didn't have tripod) shots at f1.2, f2.8 and f8

One can see wide open that there is well controlled fore and background bokeh - the degree of control means that there is a certain symmetry of the focal plane - leading to a subjectively increased isolation of the subject. This is also amplified by the field curvature and the vignetting. This is particularly so in the close to mid focal distances.

At f2.8, it sharpens up and there is loss of the LOCA and flare around the finer details. The focal plane is also starting to flatten out and vignetting almost gone. At f8, it is sharp and loses a lot of its character.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: JJChan on August 20, 2016, 16:45:49
Continuing:
The character of the Noct is especially so with objects in the centre of the field and less with off centre (eg the tree). Even banal objects can stand out and have a 'look' that is not seen with just the naked eye. This, coupled with the speed (f1.2) make it unique.

The Neo-noct has a lot of these characteristics - but these are absent in many normal and fast lenses including the Nikon 50 f1.2, 55 f1.2 and Canon 50 f1.2. The latest Leica  Noctilux has similar character, again more than just because of the speed (f0.95). THAT lens puts the cost of the Noct into perspective and hence was worth it to me.

But, it is also a nicely balanced lens and has beautiful micro and macro contrast - I like using it, not just in shots that maximise its character.
In short, Airy - I think you will really like it.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Airy on August 20, 2016, 17:26:47
I am sure to like it. But I could like the neo noct even more, given that it is also good at subject isolation, and has less LoCA and haze which are seldom usable features.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 22, 2016, 08:41:53
The original Noct is the one I like. Here it is with a little extension on the Nikon D810 and stacked with Zerene Stacker.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Airy on August 22, 2016, 09:46:10
Makes my NAS (Noct Acquisition Syndrome) come back.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Koerner on August 22, 2016, 14:06:34
I did some shots to try to show some of the character of this lens - apologies if not great but it was starting to rain and I had to hurry.
Here are handheld (I didn't have tripod) shots at f1.2, f2.8 and f8

I honestly don't see anything you've posted here that I couldn't equal, or surpass, wide-open with the Ai-S 50mm f/1.2.

(http://www.thenaturephotographer.club/thumbnails/1/1_thumb_0000001635_large.jpg)

(http://www.thenaturephotographer.club/thumbnails/1/1_thumb_0000001882_large.jpg)

Plus this lens also reverses, for 1:1 macro shots:

(http://www.thenaturephotographer.club/thumbnails/1/1_thumb_0000001295_large.jpg)

(http://www.thenaturephotographer.club/thumbnails/1/1_thumb_0000001599_large.jpg)

With the exception of the last, all were single images hand-held as well.

And, on a tripod, shot at f/16, it is razor-sharp too:

(http://www.thenaturephotographer.club/thumbnails/1/1_thumb_0000001619_large.jpg)

Jack
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: dslater on August 22, 2016, 19:12:13
Hi Jack,
  Here's an example of where the 50 f/1.2 Ai falls down a bit compared to the Noct. Admittedly the stars are elongated a bit due to the length of the exposure, but the coma & flare around the bright stars is obvious. While I don't have a Noct, I'm certain it would perform much better on this subject.

And this is with a crop sensor. A full frame camera would show even more coma near the edges of the field.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Koerner on August 22, 2016, 19:29:22
Hi Jack,
  Here's an example of where the 50 f/1.2 Ai falls down a bit compared to the Noct. Admittedly the stars are elongated a bit due to the length of the exposure, but the coma & flare around the bright stars is obvious. While I don't have a Noct, I'm certain it would perform much better on this subject.

And this is with a crop sensor. A full frame camera would show even more coma near the edges of the field.

Hi.

It's very difficult to rate that photo as I don't know the conditions under which it was taken, nor is there a juxtaposition provided as a measuring stick.
Any lens can take a bad image under bad conditions.

That said, according to Ken Rockwell, some astrophysicist bought like 5 Nocts for that purpose specifically. So I am sure (for certain specific uses) the Noct MUST provide certain key advantages.

Still, does that make a used 58mm f/1.2 Noct worth 5x the price of a brand new 50mm f/1.2 Ai-s?  :o

Also, does the Noct provide **any** advantage over the 50mm Ai-S in standard lighting? :o

I don't shoot astronomy; I shoot in optimal light. (Or try to.)

I am pretty convinced that, in optimal light, the 50mm Ai-S can do anything the Noct can do, anything, for $700 rather than $3,500.

If someone wants to spend an additional $2,800 to remove the coma from astronomy images, that is their choice. But they would have to be heavy into that kind of shooting.

With that said, I will probably buy a Noct at some point, just to take it for a spin, and make/record the differences it makes myself (if any).

But I think, for the most part, the "difference" between the Noct and the Ai-S in normal-light shooting is more myth than reality ... essentially nothing worth talking about ... in all but the most extreme conditions.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 22, 2016, 19:30:32
Just a shot this morning using the Noct with the D810.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Koerner on August 22, 2016, 19:36:09
That is a pretty photo.

I won't have the time until the weekend, probably, but I will take some tripod + optimal light 50mm Ai-S images with the D810 that I am sure will compare quite favorably with anything the Noct can do.

Both are fine lenses.

The difference is, the 50mm Ai-S is **worth** the $700 price tag ... whereas the Noct is, um, well, not so much worth the $3,500 price tag ... unless its few advantages mesh with your night-only specifications ... or unless you have money to burn 8)
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: longzoom on August 22, 2016, 19:58:37
Hi.

It's very difficult to rate that photo as I don't know the conditions under which it was taken, nor is there a juxtaposition provided as a measuring stick.
Any lens can take a bad image under bad conditions.

That said, according to Ken Rockwell, some astrophysicist bought like 5 Nocts for that purpose specifically. So I am sure (for certain specific uses) the Noct MUST provide certain key advantages.

Still, does that make a used 58mm f/2 Noct worth 5x the price of a brand new 50mm f/1.2 Ai-s?  :o

Also, does the Noct provide **any** advantage over the 50mm Ai-S in standard lighting? :o

I don't shoot astronomy; I shoot in optimal light. (Or try to.)

I am pretty convinced that, in optimal light, the 50mm Ai-S can do anything the Noct can do, anything, for $700 rather than $3,500.

If someone wants to spend an additional $2,800 to remove the coma from astronomy images, that is their choice. But they would have to be heavy into that kind of shooting.

With that said, I will probably buy a Noct at some point, just to take it for a spin, and make/record the differences it makes myself (if any).

But I think, for the most part, the "difference" between the Noct and the Ai-S in normal-light shooting is more myth than reality ... essentially nothing worth talking about ... in all but the most extreme conditions.
       In my experience, Noct has some advantage over 50/1.2 wide open, a hair at 2.0, but they both getting equal to 2.8 and up.  New Sigma 50/1.4 is a bit sharper wide open, and contrast/color ratio is higher. Way better is Otus, of every imaginable respect, for the same, or even less, amount of money. But if one wants Noct so badly... LZ
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Koerner on August 22, 2016, 20:04:35
       In my experience, Noct has a little advantage over 50/1.2 wide open, a hair at 2.0, but they both getting equal to 2.8 and up.  New Sigma 50/1.4 is a bit sharper wide open, and contrast/color ratio is higher. Way better is Otus, of every imaginable respect, for the same, or even less, amount of money. But if one wants Noct so badly... LZ

I am sure the Otus is a technical marvel, BUT ... it is *not* a rough-and-tumble lens designed to hike with in the outdoors.

Neither the Sigma nor the Otus has "character"; neither is reversible, where they can take 1:1 macros in nature.

As a hiker and nature photographer, the Nikkor 50mm Ai-S is something I can bring with me, every day, on a hike ... not worry about rain, falling down, scratching it up, etc.

If I see something cool, up close, I can also flip over the Ai-S, in the reverse, and take great 1:1 macro shots with it as well.

IMO, the Otus (and the Noct, for that matter) are too expensive and "niche only" to be considered "hiking" or "nature photography" gear.

The Otus is essentially for sterile, studio shooting ... in perfect conditions ... while the Noct is what it is: a nocturne (not standard use), specialty lens.

For everyday shooting, versatility, plus a character of its own, I think the Nikkor 50mm Ai-S is by far the better value.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: dslater on August 22, 2016, 20:09:51
Hi.

It's very difficult to rate that photo as I don't know the conditions under which it was taken, nor is there a juxtaposition provided as a measuring stick.
Any lens can take a bad image under bad conditions.

That said, according to Ken Rockwell, some astrophysicist bought like 5 Nocts for that purpose specifically. So I am sure (for certain specific uses) the Noct MUST provide certain key advantages.

Still, does that make a used 58mm f/1.2 Noct worth 5x the price of a brand new 50mm f/1.2 Ai-s?  :o

Also, does the Noct provide **any** advantage over the 50mm Ai-S in standard lighting? :o

I don't shoot astronomy; I shoot in optimal light. (Or try to.)

I am pretty convinced that, in optimal light, the 50mm Ai-S can do anything the Noct can do, anything, for $700 rather than $3,500.

If someone wants to spend an additional $2,800 to remove the coma from astronomy images, that is their choice. But they would have to be heavy into that kind of shooting.

With that said, I will probably buy a Noct at some point, just to take it for a spin, and make/record the differences it makes myself (if any).

But I think, for the most part, the "difference" between the Noct and the Ai-S in normal-light shooting is more myth than reality ... essentially nothing worth talking about ... in all but the most extreme conditions.

I think you're missing the point of the Noct somewhat. The reason to use a Noct is for cases where you're not shooting in good lighting. It's primary purpose was for shooting wide open at night - hence the "Noct" designation. If you look further on Rockwell's site, I'm pretty sure he has some night shots that directly compare the Noct to the 50 f/1.2 AiS. The difference in the appearance of the street lights is easy to see. Just checked - his review of the Noct has a direct comparison between the Noct and the 50 f/1.2
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Koerner on August 22, 2016, 20:13:21
I think you're missing the point of the Noct somewhat. The reason to use a Noct is for cases where you're not shooting in good lighting. It's primary purpose was for shooting wide open at night - hence the "Noct" designation. If you look further on Rockwell's site, I'm pretty sure he has some night shots that directly compare the Noct to the 50 f/1.2 AiS. The difference in the appearance of the street lights is easy to see.


I don't think I am missing the point at all.

I think I stated, pretty clearly, that unless you make heavy use of night-specific photography, the Noct offers essentially ZERO advantage over the 50mm Ai-S.

I think the people who are posting "daylight" images with the Noct are the ones missing the point ...

Jack
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 22, 2016, 20:22:02
It is basically very difficult to be certain of something you have never tried ... 

Also do not try to demean people using their Noct(s) for whatever purpose they think suitable, please.

If someone has the money for a Noct at whatever price they accept, it's their choice, not yours.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Koerner on August 22, 2016, 20:23:02
       In my experience, Noct has a little advantage over 50/1.2 wide open, a hair at 2.0, but they both getting equal to 2.8 and up.  New Sigma 50/1.4 is a bit sharper wide open, and contrast/color ratio is higher. Way better is Otus, of every imaginable respect, for the same, or even less, amount of money. But if one wants Noct so badly... LZ

I am sure the Otus is a technical marvel, BUT ... it is *not* a rough-and-tumble lens designed to hike with in the outdoors.

Neither the Sigma nor the Otus has "character"; neither is reversible, where they can take 1:1 macros in nature.

As a hiker and nature photographer, the Nikkor 50mm Ai-S is something I can bring with me, every day, on a hike ... not worry about rain, falling down, scratching it up, etc.

If I see something cool, up close, I can also flip over the Ai-S, in the reverse, and take great 1:1 macro shots with it as well.

IMO, the Otus (and the Noct, for that matter) are too expensive and "niche only" to be considered "hiking" or "nature photography" gear.

The Otus is essentially for sterile, studio shooting ... in perfect conditions ... while the Noct is what it is: a nocturne (not standard use), specialty lens.

For everyday shooting, versatility, plus a character of its own, I think the Nikkor 50mm Ai-S is by far the better value.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: dslater on August 22, 2016, 20:29:23

I don't think I am missing the point at all.

I think I stated, pretty clearly, that unless you make heavy use of night-specific photography, the Noct offers essentially ZERO advantage over the 50mm Ai-S.

I think the people who are posting "daylight" images with the Noct are the ones missing the point ...

Jack

I would agree with that, although instead of ZERO advantage, I'd say SLIGHT advantage. Coma is coma and is independent of lighting. In a side-by-side comparison wide open, I believe you will see a slight sharpness difference at the edges of the field even in optimal lighting as longzoom said. Is it worth the price difference? Probably not. However, much of the high price the Noct commands today is due to its value as a collectors item rather than its photographic value.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Koerner on August 22, 2016, 20:30:37
It is basically very difficult to be certain of something you have never tried ... 

I am certain I have never seen an image posted with a Noct that has been any more impressive than shots taken with other lenses.



Also do not try to demean people using their Noct(s) for whatever purpose they think suitable, please.

Okay, but try not to demean my opinion while you're on the subject ;)



If someone has the money for a Noct at whatever price they accept, it's their choice, not yours.

I am pretty sure I said this, exactly, in Reply #55.

Jack
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 22, 2016, 20:36:36
Please, stop harping on why nobody should buy a Noct. I'm sure your points have come across to us all by  now.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Airy on August 22, 2016, 20:47:29
@John Koerner, @Michael Erlewine :

Thanks for the impressive shots. In both cases, I do not clearly see the drawbacks normally associated with their respective wide apertures (purple haze for the 50/1.2, slight "glow", etc.). Did you do anything special in PP ?

I have been using two copies of the 50/1.2 (AI, AIS) with pleasure and caution for years, but could not get such results "straight out of the camera", at least not by f/1.2. Stopped down, I pointed out several times, also here, that the rendering of the 50/1.2 could be amazingly good especially in high contrast situations (another example below that gives me that strange 3D feeling), but that is of course not the "normal" reason to buy a fast lens.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Koerner on August 22, 2016, 20:52:22
Please, stop harping on why nobody should buy a Noct. I'm sure your points have come across to us all by  now.

Bjørn;

Please stop misreading and trying to control what I say.

I have said nothing inflammatory or bad ... do I not have the right to my own opinion?

I believe people over-exaggerate the qualities of the Noct.

Despite this, I am pretty sure I have said:
What is your problem with a dissenting opinion?

Since the Noct is 5x more expensive, can you show me an image taken in daylight that is "5x better" than what an Ai-S can do?

Like I said, by this weekend I will post "nature" images with my 50mm Ai-S that are easily as good as what anyone with the Noct can produce.

If a person is not posting Nocturne images with the Noct, they're not taking advantage of its uniqueness.

Jack
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Koerner on August 22, 2016, 20:58:58
@John Koerner, @Michael Erlewine :
Thanks for the impressive shots. In both cases, I do not clearly see the drawbacks normally associated with their respective wide apertures (purple haze for the 50/1.2, slight "glow", etc.). Did you do anything special in PP ?


Hi Airy;

No, my Lightroom workflow is minimal, actually.

I had one photo I was going to post, that I decided against, due to excessive CA, but that was it.

I have actually compared the 50mm Ai-S, reversed, against the vaulted Voigtlander 125mm f/2.5 Apo Macro (at 1:1), where the color, bokeh, and clarity of the 50mm eclipsed that of the Voigtlander.

Maybe I will post these findings at a later date.

I have simply found the 50mm Ai-S to be an exceptional, versatile, all-around lens ... well worth its price tag.

Jack
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 22, 2016, 21:00:39
I have said what need to be said on this topic. All view points have been posted here for every one to digest and conclude upon.

There has never  been any correlation between the "value" of a picture and the price of the gear used to take it. The Noct is no exception to this rule.


Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 22, 2016, 21:01:40
Not to fuel the fire, but to bring closure, I have a copy of the Nikkor Ai-S 50mm f/1.2, the one from after 2006, plus I also have the 2nd version of the Noct (not the recent one). Many of us probably have different lenses for different kinds of shooting. I know I do. I love the 50mm f/1.2, but it’s no Noct.

There is other uniqueness to the Noct other than low-light, IMO. I don’t care about low-light shooting, but I do care about very fast lenses that offer a razor-thin DOF, which I do value and f.1.4 (Neo-Noct) for my work is not the same. I stack the razor-thin DOF of the Noct to good purpose. Here is an example. I just like what the Noct does. It also, perhaps due to its curvature, has a style that few other lenses in my collection have.

I have an exceptional copy of the Noct, although I wish I had the earlier one, since I would like the longer focus throw. Perhaps somene wants to trade. I would consider it.

Here is something I do with the Noct that I can’t really do with any other lens, except perhaps the Nikkor-O CRT lens, which is also very fast.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: dslater on August 22, 2016, 21:05:37
We shouldn't lose sight of what technical marvels these lenses are. In both cases, we have a lens where the focal length is a mere 20% longer that the clear aperture. When you consider how fast aberrations increase as the f-number declines, we should be amazed that lenses this fast producing this level of quality exist at all.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: dslater on August 22, 2016, 21:08:45
Not to fuel the fire, but to bring closure, I have a copy of the Nikkor Ai-S 50mm f/1.2, the one from after 2006, plus I also have the 2nd version of the Noct (not the recent one). Many of us probably have different lenses for different kinds of shooting. I know I do. I love the 50mm f/1.2, but it’s no Noct.

There is other uniqueness to the Noct other than low-light, IMO. I don’t care about low-light shooting, but I do care about very fast lenses that offer a razor-thin DOF, which I do value and f.1.4 for my work is not the same. I stack the razor-thin DOF of the Noct to good purpose. Here is an example. I just like what the Noct does. It also, perhaps due to its curvature, has a style that few other lenses in my collection have.

I have an exceptional copy of the Noct, although I wish I had the earlier one, since I would like the longer focus throw. Perhaps somene wants to trade. I would consider it.

Here is something I do with the Noct that I can’t really do with any other lens, except perhaps the Nikkor-O CRT lens, which is also very fast.

Just curious, but what happens when you attempt something like this with the AiS 50mm f/1.2? Also, your example brings another variable to the table - namely close focusing performance.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 22, 2016, 21:11:11
Just curious, but what happens when you attempt something like this with the AiS 50mm f/1.2? Also, your example brings another variable to the table - namely close focusing performance.

Close-focusing is all I care about, and the Noct admits extension (K1-Ring) with no problem. As for the difference, it would be between f/1.2 and f/1.4, enough to actually make a difference. If you can't see it in the previous photo, I don't know what else to say.  :)
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Airy on August 22, 2016, 21:28:44
John, Michael, thanks for your responses, and especially for the actual examples. It is all about pictures after all...
Michael, when you say (apropos 50/1.2) "the one from after 2006", do you refer to a technical change?
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: dslater on August 22, 2016, 21:32:26
Close-focusing is all I care about, and the Noct admits extension (K1-Ring) with no problem. As for the difference, it would be between f/1.2 and f/1.4, enough to actually make a difference. If you can't see it in the previous photo, I don't know what else to say.  :)

So you're talking about the Neo-Noct, not the original Noct which was also f/1.2. Since you only have one photo, there's nothing to compare it to. Also, as I am not familiar with focus stacking, I'm unsure how going from f/1.2 to f/1.4 changes the resulting stacked image. With a focus stack, doesn't the resulting DOF have more to do with how you stacked your images than with the lenses native DOF?
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 22, 2016, 21:38:22
So you're talking about the Neo-Noct, not the original Noct which was also f/1.2. Since you only have one photo, there's nothing to compare it to. Also, as I am not familiar with focus stacking, I'm unsure how going from f/1.2 to f/1.4 changes the resulting stacked image. With a focus stack, doesn't the resulting DOF have more to do with how you stacked your images than with the lenses native DOF?

I made clear that I was not talking about the Neo-Noct, but rather the 2nd version of the original Noct, the one with a shorter focus throw. Think of shallow DOF, razor thin, and then stack it incrementally where you want there to be focus. That is the value of f/1.2 in stacking focus. In a way, I paint focus where I want it. Aside from that, the Noct has a style of its own that I consider lovely as well.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: dslater on August 22, 2016, 21:50:42
I made clear that I was not talking about the Neo-Noct, but rather the 2nd version of the original Noct, the one with a shorter focus throw. Think of shallow DOF, razor thin, and then stack it incrementally where you want there to be focus. That is the value of f/1.2 in stacking focus. In a way, I paint focus where I want it. Aside from that, the Noct has a style of its own that I consider lovely as well.

So where did the f/1.4 you spoke of come from??? I thought you were comparing the AiS 50 f/1.2 to the Nost-Nikkor F/1.2.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 22, 2016, 22:49:30
The "Neo-Noct" is f/1.4.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Akira on August 22, 2016, 23:02:36
According to Nikon's official "1001 Night" and Roland's serial number list, Noct Nikkor was discontinued in 1997 or 98.  So, there shouldn't be any "2006-" version.

The "second version" Michael is referring to should be the later, 9-blade Ais version as opposed to the earlier, 7-blade one.

I used the later Noct, Ais 9-blade version on Kodachrome 25.  It was an amazing lens.  It was not only sharper than 50/1.2 wide open, but its color rendition was noticeably different from that of "usual" Nikkors, thanks to its excellent contrast and acuity.  The 8-milimeter of difference of focal length was larger than you would imagine.  The shallowness of DOF would be well comparable to that of Leica Noctilux 50/1.0.

What I didn't like about Noct was that its huge barrel-shape distortion when used at closer range, maybe 1-2m and closer.  Also, I didn't like the cut-out of the bokeh circle caused by the symbiosis of its huge rear element and mirror box.  The cut-out would disappear in close ranges where the rear element gets further away from the opening of the mirror box, but not in the portrait range.  I thought that a rangefinder camera without the mirror box (in the film era) was more suitable body for such a fast Gaussian design lens.  In this digital era, a mirrorless body should be more suitable for the same reason.

According to "1001 Night", Nikon used specialized equipments to test the optical performance of Noct Nikkor.  I also felt that its mechanical parts like the focusing helicoid and the aperture ring were made under tighter tolerance and their operations was well comparative to that of Leica M lenses.  In short, it was of a different class in every respect.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 22, 2016, 23:15:08
That was my mistake, confusing the f/stops, when I know better. Apologies. The character of the Noct, to my eyes, differs from the 50mm Ai-s f/1.2 enough that although I have them both, I seem to always prefer the results of the Noct. Both are beautifully made lenses. As mentioned, perhaps it is the field curvature that gives it the character that I like. I will look at the 50mm f/1.2 again, when I get a chance. Right now busy packing equipment for a two-week project where I will be shooting still-life. I should stick to my packing and leave this conversation be as it is.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Akira on August 22, 2016, 23:27:32
No worries, Michael!  Hope you enjoy the long-term project.

I've heard that Noct of the earlier version is easier to flare and suffer from low contrast when used in the daytime.  I didn't have any of these problems with my 9-blade Ais.  Thanks to the ISO25 films, I could use Noct even in a sunny day, which is tricky in the digital era.  :)

I haven't used Neo-Noct, but my impression is that the current 58/1.4 is more "general" than the original Noct.  So far as the speed is concerned, there should be no practical difference between f1.4 and f1.2.  But, for the image rendition and the shallowness of DOF, the difference should be bigger than one would imagine.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 22, 2016, 23:32:00
No worries, Michael!  Hope you enjoy the long-term project.

I've heard that Noct of the earlier version is easier to flare and suffer from low contrast when used in the daytime.  I didn't have any of these problems with my 9-blade Ais.  Thanks to the ISO25 films, I could use Noct even in a sunny day, which is tricky in the digital era.  :)

I haven't used Neo-Noct, but my impression is that the current 58/1.4 is more "general" than the original Noct.  So far as the speed is concerned, there should be no practical difference between f1.4 and f1.2.  But, for the image rendition and the shallowness of DOF, the difference should be bigger than one would imagine.

I can use the Noct on a focus rail or manually (with care), but the short focus throw is a problem. I just finished testing some eight or so high-end enlarger (barrel) lenses and they are incredibly good and incredibly inexpensive. If I were looking for a very well-corrected lens (not too fast, however), these represent the best bargain that I have seen to date. The Schneider Digitar Compnon-s (like the 80mm) are approaching the El Nikkor APO lenses in quality, IMO.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Akira on August 22, 2016, 23:45:27
Yes, the shorter focus throw of Ais in general makes it (very) difficult to focus, especially with fast lenses like Noct.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: longzoom on August 23, 2016, 01:11:40
No worries, Michael!  Hope you enjoy the long-term project.

I've heard that Noct of the earlier version is easier to flare and suffer from low contrast when used in the daytime.  I didn't have any of these problems with my 9-blade Ais.  Thanks to the ISO25 films, I could use Noct even in a sunny day, which is tricky in the digital era.  :)

I haven't used Neo-Noct, but my impression is that the current 58/1.4 is more "general" than the original Noct.  So far as the speed is concerned, there should be no practical difference between f1.4 and f1.2.  But, for the image rendition and the shallowness of DOF, the difference should be bigger than one would imagine.                 
.   Yeah, old one flares more with lowering of contrast.  But bokeh looks nicer with old one, especially transition areas. For streets light at dark time, new one 1.2 looks interesting. But if you close it down, all of magic is gone. As I already said, I've no use to both of my Nocts wide open.  Curvature of field is too high for my style, in this case. So I let them stay on the shelf.  THX!   LZ
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Erik Lund on August 23, 2016, 09:55:33
....
I've heard that Noct of the earlier version is easier to flare and suffer from low contrast when used in the daytime.  I didn't have any of these problems with my 9-blade Ais.  Thanks to the ISO25 films, I could use Noct even in a sunny day, which is tricky in the digital era.  :)

I haven't used Neo-Noct, but my impression is that the current 58/1.4 is more "general" than the original Noct. ...

I have never heard or seen anything about low contrast with the Noct-Nikkor 58mm 1.2 Ai  - contrast is as one would expect,,, sure there is a small technical difference in coatings but I think it is far more important how you work with the light - Just like Michael does with his indoor neutral window light scenes. A very good use of the Noct-Nikkor IMHO.

The 58mm 1.4 AFS it is extremely close to the Noct-Nikkor both Ai and Ais for all intended purposes for the image it renders, Noct-Nikkor 58mm 1.2 Ai and Ais has a little more curvature of field up close - There should be a thread somewhere where Bjørn tested this,,, Again here the difference in coatings might give a slight difference in the output image and also here; Work with the light.

The difference that matters for the rendered image between 50mm 1.2 and 58mm 1.2 is the overall optical design and the hand grinded aspherical element. And yes also I my opinion there is a big difference between them,,,

I don't see how the price of the lenses matters here,,, They are different tools for different purposes - Some tools are just more expensive than others.


Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Erik Lund on August 23, 2016, 09:58:55
.   Yeah, old one flares more with lowering of contrast.  But bokeh looks nicer with old one, especially transition areas. For streets light at dark time, new one 1.2 looks interesting. But if you close it down, all of magic is gone. As I already said, I've no use to both of my Nocts wide open.  Curvature of field is too high for my style, in this case. So I let them stay on the shelf.  THX!   LZ

Colour and tone transitions is one of the points where the Noct-Nikkor and the 58mm 1.4 excels.

I have not see the difference to the Ais for this, have you tested this with identical scenes?
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 23, 2016, 10:11:23
Imparting quite high contrast wide open is one of the aspects one associates with the Noct. It also has a limited amount of focus shift. The curvature of field is a blade that cuts both ways as it prevents copy work of flat subjects (at the larger apertures at least), yet adds a nice 3-D feeling for more natural subjects.

A comparison of the Noct (AI) and the "Neo-Noct" in the near range (wide open f/1.2/1.4 and stopped down to f/2.8, respectively). Centre of frame, taken with D800.  The old lens has nothing to be ashamed of vs its modern cousin.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 23, 2016, 10:22:59
Night scenes are of course what one tends to associate with the Noct. It handles such scenery with aplomb, producing extremely smooth tonal gradients and the usual signs of coma and flare at wide apertures are kept well under control.

This is a test shot at 15:15 hours towards the end of November, a time of the year when darkness descends very early. The Noct loves such scenes. I stopped down a little to get everything into adequate sharp focus.

(Nikon Df, f/4, 1/60 sec, ISO 1250).
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Erik Lund on August 23, 2016, 10:45:33
Noct-Nikkor Ai shot in the morning wide open

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1511/24704232129_448de557d5_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/DD2DwH)_EGL4907 (https://flic.kr/p/DD2DwH) by Erik Gunst Lund (https://www.flickr.com/photos/erik_lund/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Erik Lund on August 23, 2016, 10:51:33
Noct-Nikkor Ai at night wide open - Again the colour transitions are very creamy and subtle

(https://c4.staticflickr.com/2/1618/24704252819_2c70a47f8a_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/DD2KFr)_EGL5739 (https://flic.kr/p/DD2KFr) by Erik Gunst Lund (https://www.flickr.com/photos/erik_lund/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Erik Lund on August 23, 2016, 10:53:37
Noct-Nikkor Ai wide open
These are all more or less without any PP on Nikon D3

(https://c6.staticflickr.com/1/603/23171501709_f1c9b56c7d_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/BiA1ba)_EGL5183 (https://flic.kr/p/BiA1ba) by Erik Gunst Lund (https://www.flickr.com/photos/erik_lund/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 23, 2016, 10:54:23
A popular trend appears to be using the Noct for close-ups. One gets butter smooth background and fairly detailed rendition in the plane of focus, though wafer-thin it might be.

A snap of Silene viridiflora, Slovenia; Df with Noct AI + PK-12 at f/1.2 and ISO 320. The character of the Noct comes out quite well. The addition of an extension ring, even so thin as the PK-12 (11 mm), has introduced some axial colour, though. Never think added extension cannot harm the quality because it is "glass-less". Forcing the lens to operate at conjugate distances for which it never was designed always adversely impacts image quality. However, in the case of the Noct, one starts at a very high level thus the slight reduction from the PK-12 is not detrimental.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: richardHaw on August 23, 2016, 11:17:38
NOCT is NOCT  :o :o :o
do not know if you guys realise it but there is a 20% increase in the price lately. being manipulated by the camera mafia ::)
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 23, 2016, 11:22:54
Already own a couple of Nocts thus am not affected :D
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Erik Lund on August 23, 2016, 11:29:20
Here we have the Noct-Nikkor Ai stopped down to f/2 to give some dof to the face

(https://c3.staticflickr.com/1/756/23254260730_d4c542274b_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/BqUaxQ)_EGL9691 (https://flic.kr/p/BqUaxQ) by Erik Gunst Lund (https://www.flickr.com/photos/erik_lund/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 23, 2016, 13:23:48
Here we have the Noct-Nikkor Ai stopped down to f/2 to give some dof to the face

(https://c3.staticflickr.com/1/756/23254260730_d4c542274b_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/BqUaxQ)_EGL9691 (https://flic.kr/p/BqUaxQ) by Erik Gunst Lund (https://www.flickr.com/photos/erik_lund/), on Flickr

Excellent image!
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: longzoom on August 23, 2016, 14:23:11
Colour and tone transitions is one of the points where the Noct-Nikkor and the 58mm 1.4 excels.

I have not see the difference to the Ais for this, have you tested this with identical scenes?
      Absolutely. AIS version looks a little bit more contrast/colored, even a hair sharper to extremes, but bokeh of old AI one was unbeatable. Yes, old AI version with its primitive today coating, is not able to deliver adequate color to sensors. 58  AFS 1.4 is the best on this respect, bokeh is fantastic, almost flat-fielded,  very low CA and distortions,  but its general softness is not what I like. This is a price for low distortions. Otus only and some Leicas have everything improved, but prices...  Please note it is my own opinion, I am not pretending to be the very last instance of truth, but it is working for me. LZ
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Erik Lund on August 23, 2016, 14:40:54
Thanks Michael!
Thanks for the clarification LZ!
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: simsurace on August 23, 2016, 14:49:02
If a person is not posting Nocturne images with the Noct, they're not taking advantage of its uniqueness.
I don't think it is as clear-cut as you put it. Even though, like you, I only own the 50/1.2, I can see that the Noct has a few things more that can be put to use creatively. I'm not buying a Noct because I think the price is inflated by collectors, but if I found a good deal on one, I would grab it without hesitation.

Thanks to everyone for contributing the nice image samples!
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: dslater on August 23, 2016, 15:50:35
Imparting quite high contrast wide open is one of the aspects one associates with the Noct. It also has a limited amount of focus shift. The curvature of field is a blade that cuts both ways as it prevents copy work of flat subjects (at the larger apertures at least), yet adds a nice 3-D feeling for more natural subjects.

A comparison of the Noct (AI) and the "Neo-Noct" in the near range (wide open f/1.2/1.4 and stopped down to f/2.8, respectively). Centre of frame, taken with D800.  The old lens has nothing to be ashamed of vs its modern cousin.

Indeed, to my eye, the both the Noct Images are sharper and have more fine detail than the corresponding Neo-Noct images.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Olivier on August 23, 2016, 16:10:22
So, Airy, beyond the debate, did you buy it?
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Koerner on August 23, 2016, 16:32:18
I don't think it is as clear-cut as you put it.

Few things can be reduced to a one-liner, I'll give you that.



Even though, like you, I only own the 50/1.2, I can see that the Noct has a few things more that can be put to use creatively. I'm not buying a Noct because I think the price is inflated by collectors, but if I found a good deal on one, I would grab it without hesitation.

There are plenty of "deals" on them right now, if you want a banged-up copy.

I searched the web and found this review right here (https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-noct-nikkor-58mm-f1-2) to be the most modern and unbiased.

The reviewer is also the first to measure the Noct on Imatest, directly comparing it to the Neo-Noct.

Jack
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Koerner on August 23, 2016, 17:02:30
I just posted the review on the 58mm f/1.2 Noct.

Here is the review of the 50mm f/1.2 Ai-S (https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-50mm-f1-2-ai-s).

The reviewer is very enthusiastic about this lens also :)

Here are the Imatest scores of the 3 lenses (50mm f/1.2 Ai-S, 58mm f/1.2 Noct, and the 58mm f/1.4 G).

QUOTE:

(http://www.thenaturephotographer.club/forumposts/2016/August/50mmais.jpg)

(http://www.thenaturephotographer.club/forumposts/2016/August/58mmnoct.jpg)

(http://www.thenaturephotographer.club/forumposts/2016/August/58mmg.jpg)

END QUOTE


The results are clear: the Noct is peerless in center sharpness at the widest aperture.
(Its very low mid- and corner-sharpness are doubtless what create its unique look.)

The 50mm Ai-S is the weakest wide-open, but by f/2 it equals the 58mm G, and by f/4 the 50mm Ai-S is the sharpest of the bunch across the frame.

The 58mm is an also-ran, excelling at nothing, until f/8, where it is merely comparable to the others.
(Though it is "pretty good" wide-open, it does not equal the Noct, though its performance does appear more balanced.)


Of the bunch, the 50mm f/1.2 Ai-S is clearly the best value, by far, beating both across the board from f/4 to f/11.

And the 58mm f/1.4G AF seems to be over-priced. It is midway between the 50 Ai-S and the Noct from f/1.4 to f/4, yet excels at nothing at any point, until f/8, where they are all fairly comparable.

In the end, the Noct does own the "wide-open" territory ... it is clearly very unique there.

The Noct's greatest performance lead over everything appears to be at f/2, in center sharpness only.

It is perhaps the great disparity in the Noct's center-to-corner sharpness wide-open that creates its character ... up to f/4 ... to the extent that those people who shoot in this range are willing to "pay to play" there ;)

Jack
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Airy on August 23, 2016, 17:14:11
Pass once again...
1) bank account says "no way"
2) no confidence in selling boutique (boss tells B*shit to justify 3950€ price tag, proposes 3650 and a skylight filter (!?!), and then accepts 3000€ although not compatible with B*shit)
I should resell some stuff to finance this one, but most serious boutique would only accept against purchase of new equipment of at least the same value, and they got no Noct anyway. I have to find other shops.

I consider testing the 58/1.4 more deeply, may well fit my taste.
58/1.2, apart from its demonstrated qualities (see above), definitely has the better form factor and manufacturing quality.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: BW on August 23, 2016, 17:23:52
I hope to "find" a Noct someday, but buying one is out of the question :D
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: longzoom on August 23, 2016, 19:56:51
   It is almost, word-in-word, what I have found inside my own experience. Some reservations, still,  towards 58/1.4 - it should be even softer, than charts suggested. With all due respect to your choice of 50/1.2, but with its max at 4-5.6, why do I, personally, need to pay for  1.2?  Special characters of old Noct or 50/1.2 are not working for me, on this stage. Today I need fully sharp wide open 50 1.2-1.4 AF lens.  Otus is great, but I can't use manual lenses anymore. Sigma is very good, but it is at its max at 2.8-4.0. So I should wait for new REAL NOCT AFS 55-58, 1.2-1.4.  Hope I'll survive till it appears... Thank you so much, Jack!   LZ

Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 23, 2016, 20:01:47
Any reason to quote an entire long post without adding anything of your own, LZ? Either edit it or remove as being a double post, please.

Edited the post as per instructions from JK.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 23, 2016, 20:09:16
The MTF charts show why I use and prefer the Noct. I don't care about corner sharpness with a lens like this; in fact I like it. What I do care about is the much sharper capability of the Noct 1.2 at wider apertures. The AIS f/1.2 is not sharp wide open, which is where I need it to be to stack razor-sharp DOF. The Neo-Noct is sharp wide open, but never gets nearly as sharp as you narrow the aperture.  I would chose the Noct, next the Neo-Noct, and last the AIS f/1.2... for the work I do. I imagine a lot turns on what kind of photography you are doing.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Koerner on August 23, 2016, 20:10:08
Bjorn;

Buried in the quote, LZ said this:


Many people don't know how to use the quote feature ;)
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: longzoom on August 23, 2016, 20:16:40
Any reason to quote an entire long post without adding anything of your own, LZ? Either edit it or remove as being a double post, please.

Edited the post as per instructions from JK.
   Sorry but it was not my fault. LZ
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Koerner on August 23, 2016, 20:17:50
The MTF charts show why I use and prefer the Noct. I don't care about corner sharpness with a lens like this; in fact I like it. What I do care about is the much sharper capability of the Noct 1.2 at wider apertures. The AIS f/1.2 is not sharp wide open, which is where I need it to be to stack razor-sharp DOF. The Neo-Noct is sharp wide open, but never gets nearly as sharp as you narrow the aperture.  I would chose the Noct, next the Neo-Noct, and last the AIS f/1.2... for the work I do. I imagine a lot turns on what kind of photography you are doing.


That is reasonable, and these tests make me want to buy the Noct :)

However, some of what I do is reverse macro shots, and I happen to use f/4-f/5.6 as exactly the aperture I use for these types of shot, where across-the-frame sharpness matters, and is where the Ai-S excels.

(http://www.thenaturephotographer.club/thumbnails/1/1_thumb_0000001685_large.jpg)

I also take single-image nature shots where across-the-frame sharpness matters.

It is nice that that site ran Imatests on all of these lenses, because it puts into perspective the strengths and weaknesses of each :)

The 58mm does appear to be a "poor man's" Noct ... but its very balanced low-end is perhaps why it will never produce the character of the imbalanced Noct.

Jack
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Tristin on August 23, 2016, 20:20:17
I know we are all eager to talk shop, but this horse's remains have been beaten to quite an extreme.   :o
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Koerner on August 23, 2016, 20:27:35
I know we are all eager to talk shop, but this horse's remains have been beaten to quite an extreme.   :o

I disagree.

There is so much similarity and discussion about the 3 lenses, precisely because they are so close in so many ways, that protracted discussion is needed to harvest the differences.

I think the ability to exactly quantify their differences has clarified both the intent, and purpose, of each lens ... where each excels ... and where each is weak ... so the fancier can make a completely-informed decision.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Michael Erlewine on August 23, 2016, 20:29:20
IMO, this is just what this forum is all about. Folks who find it too much, don't have to read it.

Back to business... I don't use the Noct as a "flat" lens, but rather for its curvature and sharpness....and speed wide open. I have other lenses for corner-to-corner stuff.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on August 23, 2016, 20:59:03
Imatest tells us nothing about CA, bokeh, colour, flare, long distance sharpness, or how the characteristics of the lens combine aesthetically for a particular subject. It's like looking at the world through a keyhole.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 23, 2016, 21:05:17
This is what I wrote about the Noct many years ago:

The 'Noct' designation calls attention to the main application area for this super-fast lens, viz. its intended use in low-light and night photography. The front element is hand-polished to give its aspherical shape and this by necessity inflates the price of this infrequently seen optic. Improved control of coma and spherical aberration is the main reason for including the aspherical element in its optical design. This effort pays for itself by giving very sharp pictures even when the lens is used nearly wide open. In fact, performance is good even at f/1.2, really picks up at f/1.4 and simply is marvellous at f/2-f/2.8. Flare control is very good, but some ghosting can occur when extremely bright spots are included in the picture. Unusual for a normal lens, field curvature is readily apparent and focusing it closer exacerbates the situation. The prominent curvature of the field can explain why the 'Noct' scores low in tests: the corners simply are not brought into focus at wide apertures when the lens is focused on a test target. This is not the proper lens for copying or close-up photography. For shooting 3D objects however, the field curvature isn't a big issue. Beyond f/4 the image contrast also begins to decline slightly and there is a significant drop in optical quality beyond f/8. The 'Noct' is built for speed and should be used for its targeted purpose. End users also may be attracted to its special image rendition, the texture of which has an appealing 'creamy' smoothness (nice bokeh).

D2X and D200 mercilessly show that focusing accuracy is critical in order to get the maximum quality from the Noct-Nikkor. The new high-resolution D3X further underlines this fact. With such a bright lens as the Noct, manual focusing is really difficult using these cameras. This is counter-intuitive but unfortunately true.

On the other hand, if the image is properly focused, and you are aware of the strong field curvature and its possible effects on the rendition of your subject, you are rewarded with excellent sharpness and very high image contrast at settings from f/1.4 to f/4. Beyond f/4, image quality declines, after all this is a specialised design not a "normal" lens. This is further witnessed by the very good image rendition at f/1.2.

IR performance: Seems to be equally good to the visible light rendition. At f/16, and under strong contrast lighting, you might just notice the first sign of a hot spot. However, since this stopped-down setting is off-limits territory for the Noct anyway, I haven't emphasized that too much.


Who needs Imatest?
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Koerner on August 23, 2016, 21:09:01
Who needs Imatest?

Who needs Imatest?

I think Imatest actually underscores your subjective impressions.

Rather than knock Imatest, if read properly, I believe it supports your opinion.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 23, 2016, 21:11:57
My point, perhaps not coming through readily enough, is that Imatest is something one has to buy whilst your eyes and observation skills come for free. The graphs and figures all have to be interpreted anyway.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Koerner on August 23, 2016, 21:17:07
My point, perhaps not coming through readily enough, is that Imatest is something one has to buy whilst your eyes and observation skills come for free. The graphs and figures all have to be interpreted anyway.

Subjective opinions always carry an asterisk *

Objective measurements are far more valuable, because people can interpret the data visually, in a graph, far better than they can "think about it" from reading words.

Further, there is no spin of bias to wade through (E.g., people who only shoot wide-open will not say the same things as people who stop down.)

The Imatest graphs allow people to simply look at the facts, and decide for themselves where they want to be, without the unnecessary chaff of "opinions" and "shooting bias" clouding the issue.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 23, 2016, 21:23:06
One can choose to believe facts are always to be quantitative.  I won't argue against that point of view.

However, it is not easy to extract information by wading through charts and tables to find what you need, without losing the wider picture so to speak.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: John Koerner on August 23, 2016, 21:32:54
Imatest tells us nothing about CA, bokeh, colour, flare, long distance sharpness, or how the characteristics of the lens combine aesthetically for a particular subject. It's like looking at the world through a keyhole.

Try clicking the links I provided on page 7 (Reply #s 101 and 102 ;))

(http://www.thenaturephotographer.club/forumposts/2016/August/CA5012.jpg)

(http://www.thenaturephotographer.club/forumposts/2016/August/CANoct.jpg)

The 50mm f/1.2 Ai-S handily beats the Noct, in this regard, from f/1.2 until about f/4.

The other issues of flare, vignetting, bokeh, and build quality are discussed regarding each lens as well.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on August 23, 2016, 22:21:43
John, I've read those articles long ago; it is not very polite to speculate what I do or don't know. You stated "And the 58mm f/1.4G AF seems to be over-priced. It is midway between the 50 Ai-S and the Noct from f/1.4 to f/4, yet excels at nothing at any point, until f/8, where they are all fairly comparable" in your post quoting the Imatest MTF graphs from photographylife.  On the other hand, according to photographylife (and other review sites) the 58/1.4 AF-S has less CA than the Noct, and  on the topic of flare and ghosting the authors say "If you are worried about ghosting and flare, you should avoid the Noct and most other Nikkor classics." Correspondingly they say on the 58/1.4 AF-S: "While Nikon says that Nano coating reduces ghosting and flare, over years I discovered that Nano coated Nikkor lenses also greatly enhance colors and overall contrast. This is especially true when working with back-lit subjects and high-contrast scenes. [clip] As you can see, the lens seems to handle ghosting and flares well, even when pointed directly at the sun."

Personally I like the colours and the fact that the image doesn't wash out so easily when light is coming towards the lens when using the AF-S 58/1.4, and I use this lens often in my photography of events and people (where window light often dominates and would likely wash out images shot with older Nikkors). I also need the autofocus and have very bad experiences trying to focus f/1.2 and f/1.4 lenses manually on Nikon DSLRs (using the OVF). I have many manual focus lenses but none of them are faster than f/2 for this reason, and I typically use those only for landscape and close-up photography, not moving subjects. For tripod based shots of stationary subjects, live view may give the needed confidence in focusing but it doesn't work for kids running around in a room, playing, or people dancing in a dim venue at night.

Every seriously designed lens has its own advantages and disadvantages compared to its peers. "Excels at nothing" is quite harsh and subjective.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 23, 2016, 22:33:30
To all members: this thread has caused some severe contention and become a burden for the moderators. We cannot be ready every minute of the day to moderate posts.

For those in search of a Noct, continue your search. For those owning one, use it. For everyone, go out and take pictures.

This thread will be closed for further posting until the moderators decide when, or if, it can be opened again.



Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 24, 2016, 10:40:34
The 'Noct' thread is opened again.

Do keep in mind the Admins will not accept any further violation of Site Rules in future posts.  Refrain from doubting other members' view points, experiences, or interpreting any personal character, please. 

If you don't understand the view points expressed, ask for clarification, not go directly to personal attacks. Often there is a linguistic issue at hand since most members do not have English as their native language. If you fail to observe this Common Sense Policy, the moderators can AND will restrict your posting privileges.

Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: richardHaw on August 24, 2016, 10:43:32
the Df and the NOCT can stir up quite the discussion   ::)

do you guys think that if a real 58mm f/1.2 AF-S is made, the prices of the NOCT will go down?

itching to overhaul a NOCT. saw one with fungus but it was sold for $1,500~  :o :o :o NO WAY!!!
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Erik Lund on August 24, 2016, 10:48:41
The original Noct-Nikkor Ai and Ais lenses will keep their prices IMHO
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 24, 2016, 10:49:09
Richard: We have noted the commitments, yes. No harm in being enthusiastic, but do adhere to site rules. We will NOT allow a single thread to overload the NG Crew with moderation challenges. Thus any offending posts here will be deleted immediately with no further notice.

Agree with Erik that the original Noct will by and large keep their price. Their numbers can only decline over time, thus the supply for any one wanting one will steadily diminish. The hand-crafted approach to lens making for sure never can return in an an age where bean counters rule the marketing strategies.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: richardHaw on August 26, 2016, 10:57:27
after a long battle, i won an Ai-S NOCT for ¥202,001 :o :o :o
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 26, 2016, 11:02:41
No casualties, hopefully?

Congratulations on your new lens.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: richardHaw on August 26, 2016, 11:06:03
No casualties, hopefully?

Congratulations on your new lens.

well, its from a dead guy's relative :o :o :o

put it up on an auction site. says that there is a black dot somewhere inside. if it turned out to be something that I cannot accept then I will just sell it for the price that I got it after I do a lens tear down of course ::)

it's crazy, the battle went on for almost an hour with ¥1.00 price increments ::)
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: stenrasmussen on August 26, 2016, 11:47:19
Good fight it sounds like. Congrats 😊
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 26, 2016, 12:28:52
...
it's crazy, the battle went on for almost an hour with ¥1.00 price increments ::)

That kind of bidding serves only the interests of the seller .... The selling price will be inflated. Nobody cares about who is the maximum bidder days, hours, or minutes before the auction closes.

Instead, determine for yourself the maximum price you are willing to pay, and enter your bid  one step over current bid + give your maximum 5 seconds before the auction ends. If you are a daredevil, wait until 2 seconds are left.

You can still be outbid even following such strategy, but at least know by somebody willing to pay more than yourself.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: richardHaw on August 26, 2016, 16:48:02
I hope that there is nothing wrong with this thing like a missing or bad element :o :o :o

Yahoo! Auctions is the only option here, it does not have the safety checks of eBay and sniping is sniping is also not possible due to a mechanic in the rules wherein the the timer will be reset to 5-10min when a new bidder bids on it or if the price has not met the seller's expectations. the seller also reserves the right to cancel anything.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 26, 2016, 17:05:54
Too bad these auction constraints exist.

This Noct sample appears to be nearly unused.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: richardHaw on August 30, 2016, 07:17:19
OK, the bigboy has arrived :o :o :o
some specs of dust inside that can be blown away later.
a few scratches here and there but nothing major
a dry helicoid that will be overhauled later when I get home ::)
so far so good. it came from a dead old man's collection. going to send my blessings later tonight with a mini Buddhist ritual. (i used to be a monk's assistant)
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Erik Lund on August 30, 2016, 09:00:13
Congratulations, enjoy working on it ;)
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: richardHaw on August 30, 2016, 09:06:49
Thanks! is there anything that I should be aware of for this thing? :o :o :o
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Erik Lund on August 30, 2016, 09:28:07
I would not open the rear optical cell on this one if only has a couple of small specs inside,,, the tolerances on this one are tight,,,

Also take care when chipping it with one of Bjørs CPU's - There is not much room for it,,, ;)
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: richardHaw on August 30, 2016, 09:39:37
Thank you very much. I will try with a vacuum cleaner if that is the case (it works sometimes. but can be risky).

the helicoids are dry and thirsty :o :o :o
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Akira on August 30, 2016, 14:31:32
Hey, Rick, just to remind you of this thread: "Brain Salad Surgery" of Noct Nikkor by Erik.   :o :o :o

http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php/topic,276.0.html
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: richardHaw on August 30, 2016, 16:30:06
yes, i saw that a couple of months ago :o :o :o

finished overhauling. surprisingly, it is an easy lens to disassemble to it's bare parts ::) (scotch tape, if you see it)

i got rid of some of the junk inside by blowing them away but when i closed it, i reintroduced new junk! now there are a little bit more specs than when i started! 面倒くさい!

the weird feature of this lens is the 2x helicoid keys and the unusual helicoid by nikkor standards. the central helicoid is 2x threaded ::) i guess the 50mm f/1.2 is the same.

wide open, my 50 1.2 is sharper than my noct. my 50 1.2 is exceptionally good even when compared to most of what's available out there because i forced nikon to make it that way by being annoying and persuasive 8)

noct has no CA wide open at infinity wide-open.

still pretty sharp. HS-7 is a must
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 30, 2016, 18:19:12
Try HN-6. It's for the 55/1.2 and fits the Noct perfectly as well. This hood will even reverse over the lens
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: richardHaw on August 30, 2016, 18:27:33
Try HN-6. It's for the 55/1.2 and fits the Noct perfectly as well. This hood will even reverse over the lens
what's the merit of the HN-6 over the HS-7?

i read it here once. somebody said that the Ai-S performed a bit better than the Ai. :o :o :o
i back read everything here but i cant find it
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: richardHaw on August 30, 2016, 18:38:41
by the way, having owned the 50,55&58 i can say that each has it's own unique signature ::)

at 1.2 (my observations):

50: clinically sharp (my sample is a freak). the most boring of the 3. has a nice character. clean but dreamy.
55: sharp where in focus. very dreamy results. surreal. watercolour-like. dreamiest of the 3.
58: sharp but some veiling flare will negate that. beautiful. not as dreamy as the 55 but very "unique". probably the best balanced one. middle ground of the 50&55

lady in bike: f/1.2, this was hard to focus. good thing i hone my focusing skill everyday on the street
bldg: no CA at infinity wide open
umbrella: this is going to be an awesome lens for pre-nuptial photography as it can isolate the couple

some samples of the 55mm f/1.2 inn real world shots to give you an example of what i mean when i say that it's the dreamiest (in my collection, your mileage may vary).
https://richardhaw.com/2016/02/06/repair-new-nikkor-55mm-f1-2/

goldilocks (i am "baldilocks") would choose the 58 in my opinion out of the 3. :o :o :o
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 30, 2016, 18:45:16
Snap-on hoods sooner or later will fall off, usually at an inconvenient time or in a way that means it is lost forever. The HN-6 screws into the threads and stays put.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 30, 2016, 19:17:53
...
i read it here once. somebody said that the Ai-S performed a bit better than the Ai. :o :o :o
i back read everything here but i cant find it

There is a slight, but recognisable difference between the two Nocts (AI, AIS) I currently own. The AI has more curvature of field and of course a slightly different bokeh because of its 7 aperture blades vs the 9 of the AIS. The bokeh difference is minimal if existing at all at f/1.2, though. at f/5.6 they behave virtually identical, though. They both are very sharp at f/1.2 in the centre of the frame, however, and mostly lack the veiling so typical for the 50/1.2 and 55/1.2.

However, as I only tried a handful of Noct-Nikkors over the years and just a few of them more in depth, whether these differences are related to the Noct generation (AI/AIS) or are caused by sample variation is hard to tell.

Food for thought is I just retrieved an old Nikon F to test it with the F-36 motor drive and an early S-type battery pack, and let the Noct (AI) stay on the camera. Even without proper dioptre correction  in the finder, focusing the Noct with this camera was a breeze. The image literally popped in and out of focus. Something is definitively lost in the transition to digital technology. The heft of the camera + motor drive added to the superb handling as well.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Tristin on August 30, 2016, 19:53:32
Even without proper dioptre correction  in the finder, focusing the Noct with this camera was a breeze. The image literally popped in and out of focus. Something is definitively lost in the transition to digital technology. The heft of the camera + motor drive added to the superb handling as well.
 

I fail to understand why modern VFs are such rubbish.  :'(
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 30, 2016, 20:08:47
The Df is OK, the D500 on occasion.

Blame AF technology and the knee-jerk response to modern inventions.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Akira on August 30, 2016, 22:51:02
Even F3 was inferior to F2 in terms of easiness of manual focusing on the matte.  One of the reasons would be the reflex mirror of F2 reflects 100% light into the pentaprism.  F3 had many pinholes for the light to pass through them to be reflected by the sub mirror and guided to the metering SPD.  The mirrors of F4 and later SLRs and DSLRs are all half-mirrors which don't reflect the light 100% either.

So far as I remember, FM2 was easier to focus manually than F3 or F3HP.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: bjornthun on August 30, 2016, 22:55:12
To further make things difficult, viewfinder magnification is lower on modern DSLRs than it was on old film SLRs. My Sony's offer 10x viewfinder magnifier so precise MF is always at hand.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 30, 2016, 23:08:16
To further make things difficult, viewfinder magnification is lower on modern DSLRs than it was on old film SLRs. My Sony's offer 10x viewfinder magnifier so precise MF is always at hand.

... if there is sufficient available light otherwise the EVF makes just a lot of noise at high magnification. I gave up the Sony system because of this.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Akira on August 30, 2016, 23:09:11
That's also the reason.  I don't know the viewfinder magnification of F2, but those of FM2, F3 and F3HP was 0.86x, 0.8x and 0.74x respectively.  I found the difference between 0.74x and 0.8x was very noticeabe, which was the reason for me preferring F3 over F3HP, even though I wear glasses.

Personally I will refrain from getting into OVF vs EVF comparison.  ;)  :D
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Frank Fremerey on August 30, 2016, 23:20:59
For me the F4 was the best MF body in my experience (but memories can be tainted, the new FM-2 did sure not deliver), now I hear, Akira, that the screen of the F2 is even better than the F4s....
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: bjornthun on August 30, 2016, 23:55:15
... if there is sufficient available light otherwise the EVF makes just a lot of noise at high magnification. I gave up the Sony system because of this.
The noise is much less of an issue than modern OVFs are, for me. I made a comparison before selling my DSLRs, and sold my DSLRs two years ago, and I'm not looking back.

Lenses (MF) are what makes Nikongear intersting now, and nostalgia for film cameras, that had real usable OVFs.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on August 30, 2016, 23:57:44
We unite in the desire for good finders of whatever principle. One needs them in order to unleash the optical potential of the better lenses.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: pluton on August 31, 2016, 01:05:40
There is always hope that Nikon might deign to create a versatile finder with a choice of two image sizes or some such.
I'd certainly suggest it if I was asked.  I don't expect to be asked.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: bjornthun on August 31, 2016, 01:27:25
There is always hope that Nikon might deign to create a versatile finder with a choice of two image sizes or some such.
I'd certainly suggest it if I was asked.  I don't expect to be asked.
Sounds like a camera with interchangeable viewfinders, like the Nikon F, F2, F3 series. Should be doable and be an easy way of offering both OVF and EVF finders, but I don't expect to be asked either. :(
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: bjornthun on August 31, 2016, 01:41:16
To get back to the Noct-Nikkor, I find the rendering to be very pleasing, many nice images in this thread. The only downside to this lens seems to be the price. It certainly does more than low light well.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Akira on August 31, 2016, 02:08:44
For me the F4 was the best MF body in my experience (but memories can be tainted, the new FM-2 did sure not deliver), now I hear, Akira, that the screen of the F2 is even better than the F4s....

Frank, I found the focusing easier on FM2 than on F3, and F4 would have behaved similarly to F3.  However, the finder image on FM2 in the peripheral area was noticeably smeared contrary to any of the flagship models.  The flagships always have the best viewfinder optics.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: richardHaw on August 31, 2016, 02:38:13
i have pretty bad eyesight but i don't have any problems manual focusing in any of the manual Nikons :o :o :o
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Akira on August 31, 2016, 02:44:39
I have been wearing near-sighted glasses since I was ten or so, and my diopter is quite strong.  The eyesight is deteriorated in different ways over the years.   :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: longzoom on August 31, 2016, 02:53:07
I have been wearing near-sighted glasses since I was ten or so, and my diopter is quite strong.  The eyesight is deteriorated in different ways over the years.   :'( :'( :'(
.        Thank you so, so much for your beautiful and entirely true translation of Nikon F history! I know how much difficult to deliver exact sense and body of the any technical topic, so, your job is well above my imagination! Thanks, Mr. Akira!   LZ
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Akira on August 31, 2016, 03:16:50
.        Thank you so, so much for your beautiful and entirely true translation of Nikon F history! I know how much difficult to deliver exact sense and body of the any technical topic, so, your job is well above my imagination! Thanks, Mr. Akira!   LZ

Hi, LZ, thank you for such a kind words.  The translation was a very good training for me, and to be able to serve for this wonderful community is a pure blessing.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: richardHaw on August 31, 2016, 03:44:38
Hi, LZ, thank you for such a kind words.  The translation was a very good training for me, and to be able to serve for this wonderful community is a pure blessing.

http://nikonrumors.com/2016/08/30/two-old-nikon-documentaries.aspx/

i had them publish it in nikon rumors :o :o :o
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: richardHaw on August 31, 2016, 03:45:58
wait, this is the NOCT thread :o :o :o i got confused!
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Akira on August 31, 2016, 04:08:06
wait, this is the NOCT thread :o :o :o i got confused!

You are right.  Sorry for the confusion!  LZ posted his comment for the good reason.  Please don't blame him!
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: longzoom on August 31, 2016, 06:24:28
You are right.  Sorry for the confusion!  LZ posted his comment for the good reason.  Please don't blame him!
.   Yeah, but from bottom of my heart!  LZ
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: richardHaw on August 31, 2016, 15:17:22
while minimum focus distance wide-open is so-so (around the same performance as the 55mm f/1.2), midground tells a difference story. it's sharp :o :o :o
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: JJChan on August 31, 2016, 16:04:45
Richard
So impressed with your MF technique - do you wait with it zone focused until the subject comes into sight or are you awesome with your focus tracking?

I did a set of street in HKG once with Noct and Df - nothing in focus except still people
Sadly you can't tell on the screen until you get back to a computer 8000miles away and to realise whole afternoon wasted.

JJ

Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: richardHaw on September 01, 2016, 01:04:11
Richard
So impressed with your MF technique - do you wait with it zone focused until the subject comes into sight or are you awesome with your focus tracking?

I did a set of street in HKG once with Noct and Df - nothing in focus except still people
Sadly you can't tell on the screen until you get back to a computer 8000miles away and to realise whole afternoon wasted.

JJ

thanks, mr. Chan. I just set my focus to a certain distance and just wait until my subject get in focus :o :o :o

the 老夫子 picture looks sharp. you can see his bald head very well
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: richardHaw on September 03, 2016, 15:17:15
went for a stroll and on my way to the bar (where a mini wake is being held for recently deceased Watanabe Eimei, a Pentax pro is being held), I took the chance to take some photos with the NOCT. I am beginning to understand it's wide-open characteristics more. I really should take this thing out more often. :o :o :o this thing's got character. imagine the dreaminess of the 55mm, sprinkled with some of the 50mm's sharpness
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on September 03, 2016, 17:38:56
the Noct weaves its magic when light levels are low or one can open the lens to its wider apertures.
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: richardHaw on September 03, 2016, 18:20:43
Yes, i am currently seeing that now. :o :o :o
It may not have the sharpness of my 50 on the closer end but the images it produce are exquisite, with a very delicate rendering. It is like eating a delicate slice of angus or kobe fatty beef compared to the more inexpensive but delicious australian variety. Bith are tasty, both are filling. But the gourmet beef will taste better in a very aubtle way when you serve it medium rare. Seared outside but juicy inside. Marinating it in wine will just ruin the delicate taste.

This is the subtlety of the noct! It is smooth but never vulgar. The ART 50 from sigma is just brutally sharp wide open. It is made with a different mindset in priority and is a workhorse of a lens when you just need a no bs lens to bring on an important shoot.

The kiddie photo is at f/2? This lens is already pretty good at f/1.4 and very good at f/2. The characteristics change a lot in between these apertures. At f/2.8 it is optically perfect in my opinion
Title: Re: Found a Noct...
Post by: richardHaw on September 06, 2016, 17:05:15
at medium and closer distances :o :o :o