NikonGear'23

Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: Andy on March 18, 2016, 17:29:15

Title: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 18, 2016, 17:29:15
Got a chance to pickup a D5 earlier today.

In case there is interest, I am happy to share my first impressions as they develop while using the camera. Please don't expect a formal review or test. There are more qualified people out there for this. Plus, I don't have (or don't want to spent) the time such a review would need to be at the necessary quality level others would find useful. I'd rather prefer a kind of logbook approach, noting down my personal impressions and experiences while using the D5. (As a matter of transparency: My own D5 will arrive (most likely) next week, like all others who have ordered a camera. Being curious, I asked if I can get a loaner for the weekend. Lucky me, the surprising answer was "Yes" :). So I will start this log with this production D5 and continue with my own D5 later next week. No conditions, just my opinions and experiences.) As said, please don't expect a formal review here. D5 NEF's and JPEG's will be shared as well.

Logbook entry #1:
1) On first touch: Looks like, smells like and handles like the familiar single digit Nikon bodies
2) First thing different I experienced vs. all predecessors: The mode button was moved to the other side of the viewfinder. The ISO button is now there where the mode button was. Makes sense, as the ISO setting changes (in my case) much more often than the exposure mode. It is just a matter of familiarity (and unlearning 15 years of behavior). Index finger on the button and with the thumb changing the ISO speed, or index finger on the button and with the middle finger changing ISO -> ISO Auto, etc ...
3) Putting a lens with a cap on the D5, and if ISO is on auto the camera try to compensate for the darkness. Iso goes up to 400k or 800k. Was a bit irritating at first look, as these values aren't so often seen.
4) Took only a few images on the way home. Looks like the exposure meter doesn't need the -0.7EV I usually set my cameras to (to avoid/reduce blown highlights). Exposure metering seems to be very precise on first images. Nice, need to look into this more with a direct comparison with the D4.
5) Single focus field is not as fast as "auto group". Autogroup with a fast lens is very fast. AF auto group seems to be needed with the ISO performance of the sensor to capture focus in dark settings. Otherwise ISO performance of the sensor is "higher" than the AF system (on single AF field).
6) Sound is similar to D3s/D4. Wouldn't call it differently, if not checked sidebyside.
7) NX-D version 1.3 can't open D5 NEF files - update is needed.
8.) Windows 8, can't display "official" ISO values beyond 65535 (seems to be a 16bit unsigned integer). (Hi1 - Hi(x) values of all cameras don't show up in Explorer). Will probably be fixed in an upcoming update with support for the D5 metadata.
9) The camera has 2x CF slots
10) After the first 100 shots, 4 terms pop up: 1) Familiarity, 2) precise exposure, 3) fast AF, 4) dependability.

cheers,
Andy

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 18, 2016, 17:54:06
More. More. Much more.

You refer to "fast lenses" ...  is that fast as in f=1.4 or fast as in fast AF lenses???
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: atpaula on March 18, 2016, 18:06:14
Thank you for sharing.
Looking forward for your next impressions and tests.
Can't wait for mine.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: John Geerts on March 18, 2016, 18:20:08
A good approach this, Andy. Very informative !
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Akira on March 18, 2016, 20:00:05
Andy, congrats on your purchase of D5!

As you should already know, D5 NEF can be processed by the latest ACR (ver. 9.5) updated yesterday.

Looking forward to further review!
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 18, 2016, 20:27:15
Thanks all.

I just finished work and went through the garden at 8pm ( = dark). A nice experience :)
D5 + 24-70mm VR, Auto ISO limited to 102400, not below 1/30 sec
Need to get into the city (downtown) for better images.

Based on oof JPEG, my "upper limit" of 100k seems likely. 3mio ISO is rather an emergency setting (in the oof JPEGs)


The CPU seems to use its faster processing power to create a unique (high frequency)pattern - looks like it seems to mimic film korn. Haven't seen that with the D4 at this level.


rgds,
Andy

Here is a "harmless" one.
Handheld, ISO 90000, unprocessed oof JPEG
1) resized, 2) 100% crop

Here is the NEF for those who have ACR (_D5D-0313.NEF). Pls share back your processing result.
https://onedrive.live.com/?id=C59FEF9F04ED4A3A%211552&cid=C59FEF9F04ED4A3A
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: arthurking83 on March 18, 2016, 22:52:00
....
7) NX-D version 1.3 can't open D5 NEF files - update is needed.
.....



Amazing situation from Nikon.
You'd have to say too, totally unacceptable too.
The D5 is obviously now available to the general public, and the D500 is imminent, and they have yet to release software required to make full use of the (raw)images.

How is one expected to pre-determine if the software to be used for the images is yet stable or usable or bug free?

While this is not related to the quality of their products on the whole(although the quality of some of their products can be questionable), it is indicative of the current culture in their management towards customers(loyal or otherwise) which is, that we are treated with contempt.

The software should have been released long before any of the products that require it for the purpose of reporting all the inevitable bugs they will undoubtedly create!
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: John Geerts on March 18, 2016, 22:58:52
On the edge of being 'usable'.  ? 
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 18, 2016, 23:16:25
John. To be honest. 90k looks useful at last....

Looking forward to city center shots .... hihi ... handheld with the 300/2 ....
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: stenrasmussen on March 18, 2016, 23:22:08
Niiiice Andy!
Am sure Bill Claff would love to receive a NEF from you. His sensor performance analysis is very good and interesting read!
I've sent him an email informing him of your D5 and NEF availability.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 18, 2016, 23:47:06
Niiiice Andy!
Am sure Bill Claff would love to receive a NEF from you. His sensor performance analysis is very good and interesting read!
I've sent him an email informing him of your D5 and NEF availability.
Thanks Sten,
I think we had the same thought :D
Sent a mail to Bill earlier today if he is interested in D5 NEF files.
BTW, years ago, I sent Bill the RAW files of all my Nikon D-SLRs (18 GB). Haven't checked though if the method of capturing the images has changed since then. Need to check.

Will go for some night shooting now. More to come.

Andy

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Bruno Schroder on March 19, 2016, 00:05:28
If it was a pinkish image shot just below saturation, he was using it a few months ago. He was looking for D90 and D70 data which I made using this procedure he sent me.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: John Geerts on March 19, 2016, 01:10:26
John. To be honest. 90k looks useful at last....

Looking forward to city center shots .... hihi ... handheld with the 300/2 ....
Ooh yes. This is a difficult shot for comparison.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 19, 2016, 02:46:16
Ok, I was 2 hrs in the city. Started past midnight. Walked with 2 cameras.
1) D5 and AFS 24-70mm/2.8 VR & AFS 300mm/4 PF VR
2) D4 & AFS 24-70mm/2.8

First, only images with the D5.
No special test setup, just normal shooting. Camera set to Auto ISO with the upper mark at 12800 (to be better comparable with the D4, which has 12800 as the upper native ISO). All images are strictly taken from oof camera JPEGs and only resized to 1920x1280. No further pp unless noted. All photos were taken handheld. All EXIF included.

3 photos:
1) The train was leaving the station. Did about 10 quick shots with AF set to AFC, most of them are in focus. ISO 6400, 70mm
2) city street. Thats the standard exposure control. ISO 2800, 70mm
3) Tram station. ISO 12800, 52mm, (horizon levelled)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 19, 2016, 02:53:00
1) Trams. waiting to be cleaned. ISO 6400, 70mm
2) Same trams. Taken with the AFS 300mm PF, handheld, ISO 12800, 1/160s, f4. Distance approx 40 meter
3) Taken with 300mm PF lens. Typical light at a gas station. ISO 4000, 1/160s, f4, Distance approx 30 meter
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 19, 2016, 02:58:58
Naschmarkt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naschmarkt) in Vienna @ Night. (actually: after midnight)
During the day, a fish and vegetable market. Those who had been there in the night, know how dark it is.

1) ISO 12800, f2.8, 1/10s
2) ISO 12800, f2.8, 1/50s
3) ISO 4500, f2.8, 1/50s
4) ISO 12800, f2.8, 1/50s
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 19, 2016, 03:02:36
1) ISO 12800, f2.8, 1/50s, 70mm
2) ISO 10000, f2.8, 1/50s, 70mm
3) ISO 12800, f2.8, 1/50s, 70mm
4) ISO 12800, f2.8, 1/50s, 70mm
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 19, 2016, 03:05:48
1) ISO 12800, f2.8, 1/50s, 45mm
2) ISO 3200, f2.8, 1/50s, 24mm
3) Rolls Royce in front of Hotel Sacher, ISO 4500, f2.8, 1/50s
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 19, 2016, 03:19:20
Comparing the D4 and D5 (don't forget, all photos shot handheld)

1) D5, ISO 12800
2) D4, ISO 12800

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 19, 2016, 03:20:49
1) D5, ISO 12800
2) D4, ISO 12800

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 19, 2016, 03:28:09
1) D5, ISO 12800, f2.8, 1/50s
2) D4, ISO 12800, f2.8, 1/50s
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 19, 2016, 03:35:06
1) D5, ISO 12800, f2.8, 1/50s
2) D4, ISO 12800, f2.8, 1/50s
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 19, 2016, 08:16:10
My first impression is that white balance seems to be very good in difficult lighting conditions

and that the color rendition is also very good  in 12k, but not so very much better than in the D4.

I am not sure what you want to tell us with the #21 comparsion.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Tersn on March 19, 2016, 10:28:43
Thanks for posting. Will you post some images shot with even higher iso?
Guess there are several others here that are waiting impatiently for their preordered D5 to arrive :)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 19, 2016, 11:20:04
I am not sure what you want to tell us with the #21 comparsion.
Frank, I didn't want to "tell" anybody anything :)
What I wanted to show is the different style of noise the 2 cameras are producing - The D5 seems to "attack" noise with a higher frequency pattern than the D4. It could be that the size reduction took away much of what I saw in the original JPEGs. For a more thorough comparison of noise, personally I would wait for the D5 NEF support in NX-D. Based on the examples I have seen so far, the ACR converter seems to interpret the D5 RAWs in a very different manner than the ooc JPEGs look like. Too early for me to tell, if this was the design chosen by Adobe, or is the actual RAW content as Nikon intended. That's why I would personally wait for NX-D as my starting point (as a kind of reference from the manufacturer)

If interested. In this location there you can find the 2 ooc JPEGs (large/fine, NR=off). You can also look at the tiles on the ground or the painted wall from the building in the background.
https://onedrive.live.com/?id=C59FEF9F04ED4A3A%211552&cid=C59FEF9F04ED4A3A
1) D5D_0438.jpg
2) D4H_2172.jpg

As one example, 2x crop from the images
1) D5
2) D4

rgds, Andy

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 19, 2016, 15:01:10
Just played with our 4 month old dog in the garden. With the 70-200mm/2.8 VR II, the AF seems to be fast and accurate. Burst sequences produce mostly keepers, low volume of non-keepers (could also be rather by me). Exposure control handles the white dog well, even in cross light. No adjustments made to exposure control in the 2 images below.

2 snapshots, just resized (Full size JPEGs can be found <here> (https://onedrive.live.com/?id=C59FEF9F04ED4A3A%211584&cid=C59FEF9F04ED4A3A)):

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: FredCrowBear on March 19, 2016, 15:32:14
1.  Most importantly - good looking dog!
2.  Thank you for your insights and comparisons.  I am going for the D500 (order placed) so I hope it performs as well as the D5 with regard to noise.
3.  By my untrained eye, the D5 noise is much less pronounced and much more pleasing compared to the D4.  It appears that the D5 preserved many more details.
4.  I continue to be shocked at how much progress has been made since I bought my first DSLR (D70s) about 12 years ago.  We live in good times.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Harald on March 19, 2016, 16:59:12
Hi,

more interesting are the RAW files. Expeed 3 vs. 5. ;) Can you please upload them for one example?

Harry
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 19, 2016, 17:54:47
Andy: yes "show" not "tell", bad wording but just what I meant
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Erik Lund on March 19, 2016, 20:51:03
Thanks Andy, looks really good, yet another step up on the ISO game!

Hope you will enjoy it!

The WB in city mixed light is almost impossible these days, there are so many different types of light sources so it's impossible to choose a 'right' WB,,,

I find it often nice to convert to BW for scenes like these,,,
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 20, 2016, 00:04:22
Erik, yes I think it is a step up.
In multiple ways. I'll get into this tomorrow. Still trying to get a "feeling" for the camera (currently at approx 1000 shots), will write more stuff tomorrow.

As a quick note. I would put the broad ISO range of the camera (Lo1/ISO 100 to Hi5, in total 17 sensitivity "levels" ) into 3 "bands":
1) the "no-brainer" band: Depending on personal objectives and output size, the range from ISO 100 until ie. 6400 or 12800 becomes almost a no-brainer. If needed for the photographic intention (ie more DOF), use it. Whatever the upper limit will be (and this will be different by each photographer), the camera shifts the upper boundary of this "band" up a bit vs previous cameras.
2) The "usable" band: Wherever the "no-brainer" band ends, the "usable" band starts. Reaching in my case well into the ISO 102400 range if it is a "normal" picture. Much better than not getting a picture at all. Depends on situation, aspiration, etc ...
3) The "marketing" band: Made the technical data of the camera sound well. Based on initial experience, Hi3 to Hi5 is definitely in this band. Unusable for my type of photography.

NEFs & NEF processing:
If history repeats itself, then Nikon will publish an update of its RAW converter (NX-D for now) next tuesday. The day, when shipments starts from Nikon to dealers. Has often been the case with new cameras in the past.
If people are interested, I can upload all the NEFs from the photos shown in this thread so that everybody who wants can play around with his/her preferred settings respective preferred RAW software.

rgds,
Andy

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 20, 2016, 00:08:56
Andy: a few selected NEFs will be very helpful.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 20, 2016, 00:36:07
Andy: a few selected NEFs will be very helpful.

Bjorn,
I started the upload of all the files I shared in this thread. It takes some time until all are in the folder. A few are already available to download.
Here is the location: https://onedrive.live.com/?id=C59FEF9F04ED4A3A%211589&cid=C59FEF9F04ED4A3A

The filenumbers are below the JPEG photos I posted in this thread. The NEF file numbering is identical.

Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: richardHaw on March 20, 2016, 08:15:24
the touchscreen was fun :o :o :o

for me the D4 is still an awesome camera, so unless i really need this ill stick with the D4
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Airy on March 20, 2016, 09:35:52
From what you displayed, the D5 is clearly better at high ISO, especially in the shadow parts. Also, colours look more natural.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Erik Lund on March 20, 2016, 10:21:31
I newer experienced the wow factor in the D4 and D4s,,, coming from D3 and D3X now the D810 was a real step up as well, both handling and also IQ.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 20, 2016, 12:11:47
It is probably like with every technology driven system. The experience and performance gap of the newest version vs. the previous generation immediately preceeding it is most likely the smallest gap. With each predecessor generation, the gap widens to the newest entrant - increasing the benefit and likelyhood that someone might think about an upgrade.

It is similar to the sharpness discussion with lenses which often dominates in internet discussions all the other attributes of lenses. That cameras are often reduced to their "faring" wrt to their high ISO performance. They are a complex system and my approach has been to rather appreciate the "holistic view" (if there can ever be a holistic view :) ). Hope you get my point, it is the combination of technical performance, plus all the other factors like usage, handling, familiarity, sturdiness and reliability. Seen from this perspective, the first 2 days (rather one long day) with the D5 leaves the impression that it is a very well rounded package. Streteching the envelope a bit here, a bit there, but ultimately, that the "reliance factor" on this tools is again moving up the scale. Even vs. the D4 I used for a few years now (I don't have a D4s). Things like WB accuracy in difficult lighting conditions, combined with the better AF performance, which finds not always a contrast line to hook on, but seemingly more often than the D4 or D800E, or the exposure meter, which more often nails it better than the cameras before. There is no single magic itemand I can't claim that the D5 does all right, every single time and never fails. Of course it sometimes "fails", it sometimes needs support with settings as it can't have insight into my intent, but the overall experience is that it is a significant step forward in this broader perspective.

After this first experience, I would describe it in the following way (for me). Despite (or rather because of) my familiarity with other Nikoen cameras, someone feels immediately "at home". No surprises. No rough edges someone has to keep in mind to avoid unexpected behavior. If I would need to prepare for a shooting in "the unknown", the D5 is a formidable contender to be picked. Being a long time D800E fan for this pick, the D5 will probably replace this default choice in my personal selection. Leaving the additional feeling that the D5 is ready for photographic exercises I personally have no experience in yet (i.e. sports photography). In this regard, it leaves the impression, that it will support your next photographic endaveour - whatever you choose to embark on. Please don't take this as an absolute statement, that only the D5 can do that. By no means, other cameras are great as well, but the D5 provides this feedback, that this journey will be this tad simpler with the D5.

On a side note:
Based on this extensive day of shooting with the D5 and the AFS 24-70mm/2.8 VR, I have to reconsider my previous assertation about this lens. Originally, the difference to the predecessor was seen too small to justify the investment for a purchase. While the long term "fault" of the older version was that it didn't emotionalize with single attributes like a Noct, it rather delivered in a very non spectacular way. It just delivers and delivers. Day in day out. The new version might be plagued by the same "problem" when I first used the lens for a quick test. After this day, I need to confess, that the lens worked with every single image towards this "goal" - "Trust me, I will perform and won't let you down". While i like the AFS 300mm/4 PF very much, it came up yesterday with another unexpected behaviour, probably caused by the Fresnel lens design (I'll cover this separately). The 24-70mm VR didn't have any of these surprises.

While I started with the normal approach a camera is potential design for - by shooting what I like - I didn't do any formal test. I assume they will come in in droves in the next weeks and months.

Happy to share my personal approach to get a feeling about the ISO performance envelope of a camera. It starts with filesizes of dark frames. Quick and very easy to do. Camera, no lens, but lenscap, set all things like NR=off, Save to NEF/14bit/lossless, Manual expose, with 1/125s and create one dark frame per ISO Setting (I do full EV steps). Noise are artefacts in an image, which is bad. The good thing is that the overall level of noise need to be stored somewhere. The lossless RAW format is a good proxy for the increase in level of noise a camera HW&SW produces. Just watch the file sizes grow and put the base ISO at 0%.

The second part is viewing the dark frames on my screen - skip through the different ISO levels and get a feeling when the distracting noise becomes so visible, that I want to be careful starting with this setting. Nothing scientfic, just a very quick overview to know where to spent more time in assessing the boundary conditions to better know your equipment.

1) Filesizes and rate of growth for a few cameras
2) D5 Screen capture of NX-D overview
3) D4
4) D800E



Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 20, 2016, 12:48:11
I will share a few ISO runs of the D5, D4 and sometimes D800E. The NEFs are currently being uploaded for personal inspection. For all cameras: I started with ISO Low1, followed by ISO 100, 200, etc ... followed by all available High settings (in full steps). Please count the filesequence to download the right NEF for the ISO level you are interested in.
NEFs can be found here: https://onedrive.live.com/?id=C59FEF9F04ED4A3A%211616&cid=C59FEF9F04ED4A3A

First subject: A train station at night

A few samples (just resized the ooc JPEGs, The NEFs might very well be better):
1) D5 - ISO 100
2) D5 - ISO 25600
3) D5 - ISO 51200
4) D5 - ISO 102400


Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 20, 2016, 12:49:13
5) D4 - ISO Hi 1 (approx 25600)
6) D4 - ISO High 2 (approx 51200)
7) D4 - ISO High 3 ( approx 102400)
8.) D800E - ISO Hi 2 ( Approx 25600)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Erik Lund on March 20, 2016, 12:58:54
Thank Andy, very nice with an early report on the new camera ;)

On the side note re 24-70mm AFS VR I do agree, it's a wonderful performer; It just delivers!
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: jknights on March 20, 2016, 13:08:54
Andy,
Thanks for the uploads of all the D5 images.  That is very helpful to me with my RAW software testing to get some D5 RAWs.

The camera images look very nice and if my D500 is as good then I will be very pleased.  Unfortunately I will now need to think about releasing my D3 from 2007.  This is my second favourite as I also have a D3S which is I think the best Nikon ever.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Erik Lund on March 20, 2016, 13:12:06
I don't think the D500 will be as good as this,,,
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 20, 2016, 13:24:53
Mixing and matching themes ....

1) Exposure meter
The exposure meter seems to work differently, better - need to spend more time to figure things out about the why and how.

When visiting the national museum yesterday, there was this candelier in the entrance.
D5, AFS 300mm/4 PF, handheld, 1/160s, no exposure compensation, about 40 meters away:

2) The lower "High ISO" values are so easy to justify
A quick example in the museum. Tripods are forbidden.
The first picture, taken with the AFS 35mm/1.4G, @ f1.4, ISO 800, good subject isolation.
If there would be the intend to get better depth (I would not do it with this image, just used this as an example), i.e. f5.6, either time or ISO has to go up. As it has to be handheld, ISO needed to go up. The second image is ISO 12800

As usual, all ooc JPEGs, just resized
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 20, 2016, 13:29:55
WB is usually handled quite well. Settings to default

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 20, 2016, 18:21:21
Quick comment on power usage:

With the 2500mAh battery, the camera consumed for normal (slow) phototaking approx 16% of capacity for 512 photos.
The second group of approx 750 photos needed 25%.
Just came back from this afternoon. 650 photos shot in about 1 hr - rather quick with a few bursts: 9% of battery capacity consumed

Quick back of the enevlope calc: If the camera is set to 14-bit lossless NEF and JPEG(large/fine), then 650 photos need approx 17 GB, with ISO set to 100. (Filesize for HighISO goes up significantly).
If the camera gets you 650 shots per 9%, then your storage capacity per battery should be approx 190 GB (1x 128GB + 1x64GB card)
with the slower sessions, one battery lasts approx 3000 shots ( = approx 80 GB)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 20, 2016, 20:16:20
Sorry for the many pics of my little dog. As long as I either play with him or feed him, he is very accomodative to play "the ad-hoc model". :)

Just to compare things a bit better and to visualize ISO 3200 vs. ISO 51200 (4 EV)
Manual exposure 1/125s, f1.6, AFS 58mm/1.4G

1) First pic is shot with ISO 51200
2) Second pic is shot with ISO 3200




Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 20, 2016, 20:24:48
1) A streetlight, about 20 meters away. He was chewing the woodstick. 1/250s, f1.8, ISO 51200a
2) This side of the trunk is on the shadow side. In the background streetlights. To the unaided human eye, the trunk appears black. Turning around, a bulb, far away spends some yellowish light. I was impressed. AFS 58mm/1.4G, 1/50s, f1.8, ISO 51200


Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Hermann on March 20, 2016, 20:41:52
Very impressive examples. Looks like the low light capabilities of the D5 are really very good indeed, even at very high ISO.

Thanks!

Hermann
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Airy on March 20, 2016, 21:50:41
Indeed. I am not sure about the noise, since the pics are downsized, but for sure the first pic at least looks "natural": quite impressive!

What about a Df II with the same sensor (or a Df refurbishment)... although the problem may become the impossibility to focus, OVF + MF being somewhat limited a combination?
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 20, 2016, 22:03:44
Airy,
here is a 100% crop of the ooc JPEG. The RAW might be a bit better (tbc)
rgds, Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Airy on March 21, 2016, 00:18:22
Danke Andy.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 21, 2016, 10:34:55
Gerne :-)

As part of the weekend activities, I've captured the test shots for Bill Claff (http://photonstophotos.net/) and sent him the RAW files for further analysis.
Please find his first summary here: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3981547

rgds, Andy


Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: stenrasmussen on March 21, 2016, 10:38:19
Gerne :-)

As part of the weekend activities, I've captured the test shots for Bill Claff (http://photonstophotos.net/) and sent him the RAW files for further analysis.
Please find his first summary here: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3981547

rgds, Andy

Bill's analysis is first class reading. Personally I am thrilled to see that my non-scientific approach was just about correct  ;D
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57123902
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Erik Lund on March 21, 2016, 10:39:01
Some funny steps in the ISO performance  :o
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Erik Lund on March 21, 2016, 10:40:38
Nicely guessed Sten!  8)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 21, 2016, 10:48:24
My verdict (given the data are valid):

1) The D5 performs worse than the D600 below ISO 3200 and better above ISO 3200:
2) The step up in ISO 3200 and above from the D3 to the D600 is as big as the step up from the D600 to the D5

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 21, 2016, 10:59:55
Some funny steps in the ISO performance  :o
Yep. Need to be checked where it comes from (error in test procedure, sensor related or the final departure of uncooked RAWs and some fancy SW were applied in camera before the RAW was stored. tbd)
imho, we should think about introducing a new metric with the emergence of faster on-board CPUs and their ability of "shaping" noise before stored in a "RAW" file . i.e. The visual appearance of noise of a D4/D5 is different than for instance a D3.

FYI: Bill sent me some new test procedures complementing the PDR curve. As I already returned this D5 sample, I will follow up with the data when my own copy arrives.

rgds, Andy

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Akira on March 21, 2016, 11:03:59
The test result of photonstophotos.net is quite surprising.   :o

The dxomark.com crashes all too often, so I cannot check the site...
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Marc on March 21, 2016, 11:56:10
Hi Andy

Many thanks for this wonderful review.

My D5 is available from the 24th, but as I'm away, I'll have to wait until the 31st,  :(

I'm wondering how you found the AF speed/acquisition in very low light given the -4EV,  and whether you had time to test the Auto AF fine tune?

Cheers
Marc
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 21, 2016, 12:00:23
I've uploaded the NEF files for 3 comparison scenarios (ISO 100 until ISO max).
Please "enjoy" yourself in case you are interested in these kind of comparisons. Steps are in full EV steps, starting with ISO 100

1) Train station (D5, D4, D800E): https://onedrive.live.com/?id=C59FEF9F04ED4A3A%211616&cid=C59FEF9F04ED4A3A
2) Museum at night (D5, D4): https://onedrive.live.com/?id=C59FEF9F04ED4A3A%211664&cid=C59FEF9F04ED4A3A
3) Colorchecker with daylight lamp (D5, D4): https://onedrive.live.com/?id=C59FEF9F04ED4A3A%211697&cid=C59FEF9F04ED4A3A

rgds, Andy

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 21, 2016, 12:12:34
Hi Andy
Many thanks for this wonderful review.
My D5 is available from the 24th, but as I'm away, I'll have to wait until the 31st,  :(
I'm wondering how you found the AF speed/acquisition in very low light given the -4EV,  and whether you had time to test the Auto AF fine tune?
Cheers
Marc
Marc, thanks for your kind remarks. Based on the short weekend experience, I assume you will enjoy your D5 when you will get it.

wrt to AF performance - Please consider that I didn't do any of the heavy duty AF tests (AF lock-on a football star and all the other player crossing constantly line of sight, Capturing an approaching bear while running away, etc ...)

For low light performance, the AF system can't provide magic. The D5 "suffers" the same problem like its immediate predecessors (D4, D3) that the low light sensitivity of the sensor improved much more (and faster) than the low light performance of the AF system. If it is really dark (below -2 EV) the AF struggles relatively often to find contrast edges, while the sensor is still able render a somehow useful image at ISO 50k or 100k. What makes significant difference is the AF setting in operation. If the AF is set to AF-S and a single AF field, then the limitation is much more severe, vs setting AF to "group AF" with multiple AF fields active. This improves the likelyhood that any of the active AF fields catches on and the AF CPU seems to be fast enough to use all active AF fields. Group AF should get you going until 50k or 100k.

In a nutshell: The darker it becomes, the more AF fields should be active.

Having said that: For my type of photography, the sweet spot of this camera is in the ISO 3200 to ISO 12800 range. A range which used to be an area of "under exception only" becomes now a kind of standard range to include in the set of choices if needed. No big worries in most circumstances. In this range, the AF is fast and precise, adding to my former comment that the camera comes around as a very "round package".

rgds, Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 21, 2016, 12:22:39
Thank you Andy.

I still want D600 innards in a D5 style body and feature set.

The area below 3200 is most important to my kind of photography.


Hey. I know this motherboard! I am runnig is at this very second.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 21, 2016, 12:49:19
Frank,
see how important those motherboards are :D

wrt to D5:
I would be more cautious on asserting the < ISO 3200  performance as the weak spot. The D5 nailed the exposure and WB so often, that it not only took my attention how pleasing they looked, but it also reduces the effort for required post processing. It could very well be, that Nikon found that their typical D3/D4 audience didn't leverage the DR below ISO 1600 to the full extend and used it as an opportunity to improve the design in some other areas.

Having said that, I don't think the D5 should be the preferred camera for still and studio photography - here the D750/D810 are the better (and more cost effective) cameras. Used as a sidekick for whatever unexpected might come around in your days or weeks, I would assume that you might appreciate then the versatility of the D5.

As always, it depends on the use case, what the most appropriate tool is.

rgds, Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Marc on March 21, 2016, 13:41:59
Marc, thanks for your kind remarks. Based on the short weekend experience, I assume you will enjoy your D5 when you will get it.

wrt to AF performance - Please consider that I didn't do any of the heavy duty AF tests (AF lock-on a football star and all the other player crossing constantly line of sight, Capturing an approaching bear while running away, etc ...)

For low light performance, the AF system can't provide magic. The D5 "suffers" the same problem like its immediate predecessors (D4, D3) that the low light sensitivity of the sensor improved much more (and faster) than the low light performance of the AF system. If it is really dark (below -2 EV) the AF struggles relatively often to find contrast edges, while the sensor is still able render a somehow useful image at ISO 50k or 100k. What makes significant difference is the AF setting in operation. If the AF is set to AF-S and a single AF field, then the limitation is much more severe, vs setting AF to "group AF" with multiple AF fields active. This improves the likelyhood that any of the active AF fields catches on and the AF CPU seems to be fast enough to use all active AF fields. Group AF should get you going until 50k or 100k.

In a nutshell: The darker it becomes, the more AF fields should be active.

Having said that: For my type of photography, the sweet spot of this camera is in the ISO 3200 to ISO 12800 range. A range which used to be an area of "under exception only" becomes now a kind of standard range to include in the set of choices if needed. No big worries in most circumstances. In this range, the AF is fast and precise, adding to my former comment that the camera comes around as a very "round package".

rgds, Andy

Thanks for the detailed reply,

I should have clarified my question on the AF -4EV,

it was in comparison to my D4s, perfectly understanding that we're talking about very low light here, just was interested in seeing if AF pickup was improved over the D4/D4s.
Like you my primary interest is in the ISO range of 3200-12800, whereby I shoot wildlife at the hours of sunrise/sunset where this range is really needed.
I'm hoping that can now stretch to 25600 when really needed, your results seem to indicate that possibility.  ;)

Cheers
Marc
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 21, 2016, 14:09:33
Marc,
the advantage you have against the city shooter is that dawn, even if it is dim, has a very balanced spectral distribution. This helps the sensor enormously. While in city- and incandescent light, quality of light becomes fast a challenge. ISO 25600 at dawn might be very well within the quality envelope you need. Unfortunately (or rather fortunately) you need to check for yourself if ok or not, too many factors need to be considered (i.e. how contrasty is the fur of the animal you want to photograph).

I can't claim that the D5 AF was always rock solid, it was sometimes too dark, but from a gut feeling perspective, it was a bit better than the D4 catching contrast lines. As said, just a gut feeling.

Not really a challenge for the D4 or D5, just a confirmation that the D5 AF works (as intended :) ). Each one out of a series of approx 20 shots. Slight crops, otherwise unchanged ooc JPEG. Resized.

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 21, 2016, 14:38:59
Andy's comment on spectral quality of light of different locations is spot on. Various artificial light sources are spectrally deficient as a rule.

Even my D3S can do clean ISO 51200 captures in broad daylight.

The problem with these ultra high ISO speeds usually is you either run out of aperture or shutter speed settings, or both. The experiment with D3S referred to above was only possible using 1/8000 sec and a lens capable of going to f/64. ISO 25600 would be more rational to use and the test pictures printed in the magazine article I wrote very virtually indistinguishable from those taken at much lower ISO values. Had I shot night scenes in a city, the outcome would be completely different.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 21, 2016, 15:32:12
Looking at my pictures and remembering under which conditions I shot them, I am still reflecting on the color reproduction of the D5.

Something is different vs. other cams.
The colors of shots with different lighting conditions are much more "consistent" - seen across the series and within the individual series.
There is less than expected deviation between the shots. Independent if it was shot with mixed light, or large sky parts were in an image, or cloud and overcast, or sunny, or different articial light sources. Hmmm.

Don't know yet where it comes from, but a few sources might contribute:
1) A new CFA with a different spectral response?
2) The high resolution exposure meter providing better detail and information what is actually in the image (i.e. a face)
3) The 24-70mm/2.8G VR lens with much better contrast in cross light situations (and lower flare/ghost). The "E" aperture with more precision?
4) new SW algorithms
5) a combination of 1-4 (most likely)

Anyway, most are pleasing (for me) from a color balance. I don't have any outlier with a completely wrong color reproduction. This might save some time in the future with post processing when the WB correction step isn't needed anymore.

Similar observation with exposure: There is more consistency across the different series I shot.

Interesting. This will be one thing I'd like to better understand. Need to wait for my camera ....

rgds,
Andy

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 21, 2016, 17:22:32
The first picture in #64 has such a lovely clarity and liveliness. I have witnessed a new quality of shots in the sports part of my newspaper and I ask myself if this has to do with new lenses or new cameras on the market.

I would describe it as: "relaxed vivid pop out", meaning that live action shots show qualites usually seen only in thoroughly crafted studio work with tons of post production.

Concerning the consistency of White Balance I said that in post #22 and I am happy that you see it similarly.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Marc on March 21, 2016, 20:21:20
Marc,
the advantage you have against the city shooter is that dawn, even if it is dim, has a very balanced spectral distribution. This helps the sensor enormously. While in city- and incandescent light, quality of light becomes fast a challenge. ISO 25600 at dawn might be very well within the quality envelope you need. Unfortunately (or rather fortunately) you need to check for yourself if ok or not, too many factors need to be considered (i.e. how contrasty is the fur of the animal you want to photograph).

I can't claim that the D5 AF was always rock solid, it was sometimes too dark, but from a gut feeling perspective, it was a bit better than the D4 catching contrast lines. As said, just a gut feeling.

Not really a challenge for the D4 or D5, just a confirmation that the D5 AF works (as intended :) ). Each one out of a series of approx 20 shots. Slight crops, otherwise unchanged ooc JPEG. Resized.

Thanks again Andy

The quality of light is indeed a pertinent point.

Did you have any time to check out the Auto AF fine tune by any chance?

Cheers
Marc
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 21, 2016, 20:26:08
Concerning the consistency of White Balance I said that in post #22 and I am happy that you see it similarly.
Frank,
you were ahead of me. I was hiding behind the D5 and was then still focussed to take photos :)

Now, sitting in front of the monitor, the WB pattern over hundreds of large thumbnails is clearly visible.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Jan Anne on March 21, 2016, 20:46:26
Thanks for making NG a great and valuable place Andy, much appreciating the shared information.

And of course congrats on your latest acquisition :)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 21, 2016, 21:12:15
Better AF with glacial speed primes like the 1.8/50G and the 1.8/85G ????

Please comment on that.

Another wish: Larger pixels in theory mean better DR but this rule seems not to hold true here.

Did the real base ISO go up so far????
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Erik Lund on March 21, 2016, 21:20:58
The D5 looks more and more like a pure Sports and PJ camrea - Would be amazing if they crunch out a D5X base ISO 64 or 32,,,  ;)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Jan Anne on March 21, 2016, 21:35:36
Another wish: Larger pixels in theory mean better DR but this rule seems not to hold true here.
The opposite is true, the higher pixel cameras tend to have a wider DR range. Very simple, smaller pixels capture more detail at different levels of light so there's more data to work with.

When I moved from the D3s to the D810E I couldn't believe how much I could push the files in CNX2 both ways, HDR from one file was easily done. With the 12MP a7S I lost that capability but gained high ISO performance, now the a7RII with it's 42MP sensor gives me that stunning detail and DR range again but to my surprise also with a very good high ISO performance.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 21, 2016, 22:14:00
Jan Anne: Thank you. I thought that some info about the D5 might be of interest to the community (being curious by myself :) )

Frank:
Better AF with slow lenses?
Why not. :) It is not always speed what counts. Finding a contrast pattern in low light is more dependent on the AF system than the speed of the slow lens. What is more important is
a) that the lens is not decentralized, especially if it is a fast lens - this introduces a long list of issues on AF accuracy with cross-type AF sensor fields
b) the AF system is not spectral sensitive (i.e. the AF of the D3 and others from this period is impacted by different spectral distributions). The D5 seems to be fine in this sense what I've seen initially.

wrt to larger pixel and better DR:
I am sorry to say, that this saying (coming from the CCD days) was carried over to the CMOS world and seems to never die. Good DR is dependent on 2 major things: High Full well capacity and low read-out noise. The reason the D800 became such a success, because it excelled in both vs. the D3 and D4 (not surpassing everywhere, but getting very close). Both, D3 and D4 had a sensor design with an external (fast) A/D converter. This converter has to transform the analog values for all pixels serially. Given the high speed, high precision is very hard to achieve in an economical way. The Sony sensor Nikon used for the D7000 and the D800, has a lot of parallel A/D converters on chip. 2 benefits: 1) each one has a lot of time for the conversion (relatively speaking) and 2) what is integrated on a chip is easier to be calibrated. If interested, look up Sony's whitepapers about ramp wave conversion for more info. This provides excellent (=low) read noise levels for these type of sensors.

On the full well capacity, it is true that larger pixel can register more photons/electrons in the larger pixels. But there are fewer of them on a given sensor size. Let me suggest a different and simple metric, which served me well in the past to understand sensor performance. Full well capacity per full sensor area. According to sensorgen.info (http://sensorgen.info/), the D4 has a full well capacity per pixel of 118.339, the D800 of 48818 and the D810 of 78803. Multiplied by the number of pixel on the FX chip gives you the following "light budget":
D4 = 1.912.812.661.760 registered photons FWC for the whole FX sensor
D800 = 1.764.883.957.760
D4s = 2.076.875.637.760
D810 = 2.848.911.272.960
D750 = 1.971.670.171.648

Given that equal output size should be considered in such comparison, this simple number helped me in the past to get a rough estimate how a sensor will perform relatively to others. Just an initial estimate.

For historic comparison:
D2H = 84.277.315.584
D3 = 610.194.772.992

(This is one contributing factor why you can pull so much out of the shadows of an D800/D810/D750/D600 image vs. their ancestors)

Don't know if the real ISO base went up for the D5 (vs. indicated ISO Setting). Bill Claff uses set ISO levels, DXOmark uses measured ISO levels and DXOmark numbers aren't out yet.


rgds, Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 21, 2016, 23:33:47
Generally I like very much what you say, got me thinking a lot.

The D810 converts 2.8 Billion Photons to Electrons at ISO64 and below?
The D750 converts 2.1 Billion Photons to Electrons at ISO150 and below?
The D3 converts 0.6 Billion Photons to Electrons at ISO200?

What I do not understand yet is how base ISO affects the picture.

In post #55 I collected a comparsion of your quoted side, here is another one

(Also: what does the wave like pattern at low ISO mean (D3 / D5?):
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Øivind Tøien on March 22, 2016, 00:21:40
...
Another wish: Larger pixels in theory mean better DR but this rule seems not to hold true here.

Did the real base ISO go up so far????

When looking at Bill Claff's Photographic Dynamic Range curve one need to keep in mind that the data are standardized to a certain print size/viewing distance. Thus if two sensors of different resolution have the same Photographic Dynamic Range, the lower resolution sensor will be better when compared at pixel level (100% crop). So the low res sensors will inherently seem to have a disadvantage here which is not reflected at pixel level, but is so when viewing a print at the same same size and distance (similar magnification). Another consequence of this is when an Fx sensor image is cropped to DX format, the photographic dynamic range will be lower, as the image will be magnified more.

It will be interesting to see if the data can be reproduced. I supplied Bill data for the Nikon 1 AW1 sensor, and that changed some suspicious data he had received before which did not make sense as it differed markedly from the other 1 sensor curves.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 22, 2016, 00:29:26
Thank you, Øivind Tøien. A lot to investigate here...
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 22, 2016, 00:38:52
What I do not understand yet is how base ISO affects the picture.
(Also: what does the wave like pattern at low ISO mean (D3 / D5?):

Frank, the individual sensel is usually ISO agnostic. It just captures light. As much as it possible can.
The "ISO setting" happens later in the processing as the output of the sensor is calibrated towards the selected sensitivity level.

rgds, Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 22, 2016, 00:41:29
Frank, the individual sensel is usually ISO agnostic. It just captures light. As much as it possible can.
The "ISO setting" happens later in the processing as the output of the sensor is calibrated towards the selected sensitivity level.

OK. And is there something like a "real ISO" or a "natural ISO" or a "sweet spot of performance" in the ISO range?

Why can I not dial in ISO 100 or 50 or 25 in my D3?
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 22, 2016, 01:28:07
OK. And is there something like a "real ISO" or a "natural ISO" or a "sweet spot of performance" in the ISO range?
To my memory (I looked at this back in 2012). No at the individual sensel level, yes at the chip level.

If you are interested in further information:
The description of the D800 Sensor readout system in Sony's semiconductor news #47 (http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news_archives/img/pdf/vol_47/featuring47.pdf).
A patent (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=8093543.PN.&OS=PN/8093543&RS=PN/8093543) for Panasonic on Ramp Wave based CDS systems.
A discussion we had in a german foto forum (http://www.nikon-fotografie.de/vbulletin/nikon-d800-nikon-d800e-nikon-d810-nikon-d810a/207973-warum-immer-noch-eine-konventionelle-iso-einstellung-an-der-d800-6.html#post1915471) about these matters back in 2012 (sorry, in german language)

Quote
Why can I not dial in ISO 100 or 50 or 25 in my D3
2 quick comments on this:
1) The "native" ISO of the D3 is 200. The reason Nikon is labelling this lower value "Low 1" and not "ISO 100", is this setting doesn't fit the official ISO standard. Like the higher "Hi 1, etc ..." settings aren't compliant to the ISO definition (ISO standard 12232). We usually refer to a Hi 1 as (for example) ISO 12.800, but the sensor is beyond its ability to comply to the standard (esp noise floor levels). As it is technically easy to crank up the sensitivity of the sensor and the marketing department enjoys these super high values, the industry started a while ago with this "Hi" race. That'S why we have native ISO (compliant to the ISO Standard) and low/high settings (non or somewhat compliant to the ISO standard)
2) Setting a lower setting like 100 on the D3 wouldn't get you anything. The sweetspot of the D3 is closer to ISO 200 (max FWC and lowest read noise). Any lower setting reduces DR. So why offer it then? (One use case could be for a photographer, who would like to do panning of i.e. cars in motion during the day and need as low an ISO Setting as possible to stretch exposure time. A ND filter would impact his AF system, so a low ISO would be better)


As we talk about all the "flexbility" manufacturers have in "re"defining common terms, you might also pay attention about the change Nikon introduced with the D2X. Look up the technical data in the manual and you will find in the chapter on ISO settings, the term REI (Recommended Exposure Index). Another vehicle for manufacturer to be a bit more flexible what their cameras will do when a user set for instance ISO 100. ISO 100 on the outside is <> ISO 100 in the inside. :) Please read Douglas Kerr's paper (http://dougkerr.net/Pumpkin/index.htm) on this subject.

Wouldn't it be easy, if it was easy? :)
I've spent some time in the past trying to understand all of this and its implications on photography. The consequence for me was, that I take now a much more relaxed view about settings, metrics and appropriate values and rather enjoy the easier side of photography :D

rgds, Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 22, 2016, 02:58:52
I was ready to use the superior capabilities of the D5 as a sports and action camera and travelled to a place to visit a horse race last weekend. Kind of.
All my gear was ready, the battery of the D5 was fully charged, AF was set to AF-C, CH was set, a new and empty card in the camera. A super fast lens on the camera. Ready, set, go!

Please find below the interpretation of the term "go" the horse had in mind instead. So, here we "go". This is then my "action shot" with the D5 on this occasion. The camera nailed it perfectly. No other camera could have done that (with the probable exception of the D40) :)

next subject please ....


Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Akira on March 22, 2016, 04:14:53
When looking at Bill Claff's Photographic Dynamic Range curve one need to keep in mind that the data are standardized to a certain print size/viewing distance. Thus if two sensors of different resolution have the same Photographic Dynamic Range, the lower resolution sensor will be better when compared at pixel level (100% crop). So the low res sensors will inherently seem to have a disadvantage here which is not reflected at pixel level, but is so when viewing a print at the same same size and distance (similar magnification). Another consequence of this is when an Fx sensor image is cropped to DX format, the photographic dynamic range will be lower, as the image will be magnified more.

It will be interesting to see if the data can be reproduced. I supplied Bill data for the Nikon 1 AW1 sensor, and that changed some suspicious data he had received before which did not make sense as it differed markedly from the other 1 sensor curves.

Øivind, if I understand correctly, the dynamic range (DR) is the range between the highlight clipping point and the noise floor.  So, the low ISO DR may be more influenced (limited) by the clipping point, and the low ISO DR, noise floor.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frode on March 22, 2016, 07:57:47
CNX- D support for D5: http://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/download/sw/58.html
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Hermann on March 22, 2016, 08:57:44
CNX- D support for D5: http://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/download/sw/58.html

Thanks. And not just support for the D5, there are also some bug fixes and they finally added a retouch brush tool. CNX-D seems to be getting there, albeit slowly.

No support for the D500 yet though.

Hermann
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Tersn on March 22, 2016, 09:06:44
Thanks again, Andy, for all your images and your rather systematic approach!
As Frode noted, the NEF files can now be processed in CNX-D:

CNX- D support for D5: http://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/download/sw/58.html
Thanks, Frode. It could also be convenient to download the  new version of ViewNX-i as it contains several operations not (readily) available in CNX-D :
S-NXD___-010400MF-ALLIN-ALL___.dmg
 (http://S-NXD___-010400MF-ALLIN-ALL___.dmg)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 22, 2016, 09:58:19
CNX- D support for D5: http://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/download/sw/58.html
Thank you Frode. This was the moment I was waiting for :D
In the end, it is Tuesday ......

rgds, Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frode on March 22, 2016, 10:03:56
Thank you Frode. This was the moment I was waiting for :D
In the end, it is Tuesday ......

rgds, Andy

Thank YOU, Andy, for your "tutorial"!

 :)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on March 22, 2016, 10:51:19
If I understand it correctly, Bill Claff uses mainly  real world NEF images sent by early owners of the cameras to estimate the dynamic range. I think the oscillation is probably not real, and may be a result of insufficient samples of images or the methodology used. But this is just my guess.

Maybe the D5 is optimized for high fps and uses fast readout of data from the sensor, leading to a situation where the dynamic range at low ISO is not as high as with some other cameras (Nikon has used slower readouts with limited fps rate to increase low ISO DR in the past, e.g. D300, D3X). It is a little disappointing that they couldn't meet D4s DR at base ISO. Of course we should wait for more testing before drawing conclusions.

I guess if the D500 uses similar sensor technology as the D5, it would likely fall behind the D7200 in low ISO DR, by some margin. But no data so far.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 22, 2016, 12:21:34
Ilkka,
the data Bill used for the D5 were coming from the one production camera I had access to over the weekend. As I have more than 30 different Nikon D-SLRs I've done the RAW data collection for Bill in the past accross the whole range and quite a few of the other Nikon DSLR measurements in his tool are based on these files.

For this camera, I sent Bill 3 data sets.
1) D5, set to 14bit lossless NEF
2) D5, set to 12bit lossless NEF (Bill has different values for 12bit, but this also served as cross check to the 14bit data set)
3) D4, set to 14bit lossless NEF (for crossreference, quality check of the setup used for this run)

While he is reasonable confident (http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57475436) that the data is what it is, we agreed to re-run this exercise when I get my own copy later this week. Just to have more data points.

wrt to the emerging discussion about the "low" DR at low ISO levels the D5 provides:
1) We have to confirm with more datasets that this is indeed a pattern of the D5 camera type, and not only this particular sample
2) As many have stated previously, we are approaching fast physical limits (i.e. growth in quantum efficiency), so there will be trade-offs to be made in optimizing for a particular use case. Like the Nikon D810 is optimized for very high resolution and high DR at low ISO, it is not the tool for fast, low light circumstances. The sweet spot of the D5 might differ, but it can't be the champ in all corners of the potential usage spectrum a large customer base has.
3) The "merit" of the digital world is, that Nikon doesn't only has to rely on interviews and customer surveys what their users do, they can analyze millions of images of their target audience and actually see what people do and how their tools are being used for. What if (hypothetically), most D5 target users used the current generation cameras in JPEG mode only? (because speed of the workflow is of paramount importance, like in sports).
4) Or the professionals who work for Reuters have to comply with the JPEG only policy  (http://petapixel.com/2015/11/18/reuters-issues-a-worldwide-ban-on-raw-photos/)for photo journalists? Other news channel might mirror this as well. And Nikon basically optimizes the design for this world, where their users have to accomodate these emerging requirements?
5) It has to bee seen, what the addition of 4k video functionality contributed to the seemingly lower ISO DR performance. What if video has a much higher priority on the list of requirements Nikon heard from their core customer base, vs. superior DR at low ISO?
6) We don't know yet what Nikon has in their sleeves for a D810 successor. It might be the greatest camera for landscape shooters anybody could wish for. Nikon would probably not object if people would buy 2 cameras - it's called business strategy :)
7) We hadn't had a chance to compare the D5, D4 and D810 in such a particular scoped test. Will need to be done anyway to measure visible impact and outcomes. Would not be the first time, if internet folklore treats some individual measurements as the biggest issue on earth and most wouldn't even see anything in their results. ;)
8.) Starting with the D3 and then proceeded with the D4, the D5 shows again a different pattern of (higher frequency) noise stored in the NEF files. Need to be checked, what the Nikon engineers decided to design in this regards and how it impacts different scenarios and workflow options.
9) An example how others see it: a quick comment by Iliah Borg (http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57477830)

My personal approach:
Like you, stay "calm", look at it with curiosity when more info is available. But this is no different as with the other technical factors were the D5 behaves a bit differently, like WB consistency, exposure consistency, color fidelty, etc ...
In the end, a camera consists of so many interdependent components that a holistic view might be the most appropriate. It's the total "package" what counts.

rgds, Andy

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on March 22, 2016, 13:04:15
While I agree that a professional sports photographer is likely to shoot jpg in many cases to be able to edit and send the images as quickly as possible for the media to use. But some sports photography (and wildlife photography) takes place in bright sunlight and there a large dynamic range at low to medium ISO would be a benefit.

There are also other reasons than the high fps rate that one may elect to buy a camera like the D5 - such as ergonomics, ruggedness, and ability to function reliably in extreme environmental conditions. I also find the handling of the integral vertical grip bodies to be better because the positions of the controls are not compromised by the division between body and vertical grip. The D5 has excellent AF with the extreme focus points and this makes it ideally suited for full body portraiture - but the sensor doesn't exactly seem to be a perfect match for that, as often a larger dynamic range would be a benefit e.g. in wedding portraiture.

I think the dynamic range compromise here must have been a result of the high speed readout that was mandated by the high fps capability of the camera, and not any result of the supposed target audience shooting jpg or simply not caring. It may certainly be true of the majority of sports photographers but there are others who want to use this type of camera body as well. Perhaps Nikon doesn't sample their user base evenly. Anyway, it is what it is, and it probably complements the D810 quite well.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Erik Lund on March 22, 2016, 14:51:04
Quite interesting nobody will take the D5X bait I put up,,, Oh well - keep on dreaming  ::)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on March 22, 2016, 14:53:19
Quite interesting nobody will take the D5X bait I put up,,, Oh well - keep on dreaming  ::)

I think the issue is that if Nikon offers a "D820" and "D5X" at the same time and one is 3000€ and the other 8000€ then the latter will have very few takers. Only by offering sufficiently distinct feature sets can Nikon sell a D5X and that would mean killing the D8x0 line, or downgrading it significantly, which isn't going to happen since it's a very successful product.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Erik Lund on March 22, 2016, 14:57:32
That is only if you think in money, Nikon doesn't always think in money, I'm happy to report.

Coming from an long heritage of D1X, D2X and D3X it is no secret I would have preferred a D5X to the D810 with grip,,, You mention the reasons above ;)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 22, 2016, 15:01:22
Well, Nikon actually let us down by not offering a D4X. I think this can be construed as a sign of dividing product lines.

Thus, D5X likely is a pipe dream. Sad as it would be an unbelievably capable machine.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Erik Lund on March 22, 2016, 15:12:21
You might be right,,,
The D4 and D4s never caught my attention, many different little things kept me away,,,
While shooting the D3 and D3X I have shot with two D7000 on the side, with grip on one of them and slowly gotten accustomed to some of the differences so the gripped D810 is sort of OK for me to shoot with now,,,

Let's see,,, a D5X - 100 Mega Pixel would be,,, Nice ;)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 22, 2016, 15:19:32
Update: oops, I was too slow in my typing - or my posting is just too long :)

Quite interesting nobody will take the D5X bait I put up,,, Oh well - keep on dreaming  ::)

I assume that even Nikon was surprised by the success and market adoption of the D800 series, which basically killed the D1H/D1X, D2H/D2X, D2Hs/D2Xs and D3/D3X heritage for the D4 generation. From a business platform perspective the lower price of the D800 increased the number of cameras in the market substantially vs the D1/D2/D3 generations. With more camera in the markets and its relatively high resolution requirements triggered quite a few Nikkor sales (more than a few high priced D4X's could have done for Nikon's overall bottom line).

My 2 cents on "dreams ..." :)
1) Now that the D8xx series is so well established, Nikon will continue to explore and exploit this market segment. While the D800 was probably a risky step to change the market dynamics, there is no need now for continuing such an approach. My guess is that the next generation D8xx will be rather be a "conservative" step, i.e. 45 or 54MP if we talk resolution. With about the same price range (and the "mandatory" 10% uplift for a new generation).
2) This would allow Nikon still to choose the route to position a "revolutionary" D5X with an appropriate price premium against the "standard" D5. Not sure how many customers would embark on a route of paying for instance 7-10k $ for a 88MP or 100MP FX D5X Camera (or whatever resolution), without impacting the "lower cost" 3-4k D8xx successor market. Using CX cameras like the J5 with current modern FX lenses, the aquivalent resolution over the FX sensor space would be either 80 or 150 MP (depending if someone uses the J5 or V2 as base). Meaning, existing lenses wouldn't be completely out of scope.

Talking about guesses. My current guesses are rather around the renewal of the "holy trinity" lens set (AFS 12-24mm, 24-70mm VR and AFS 70-200mm).
1) The AFS 24-70mm/2.8G VR seems to be the early bird in this generational change. Electronic aperture control, VR, etc. But the 82mm filter size seemed odd to me at the beginning. As it is a very unusual filter size.
So the "conspiracy guess" is that the 24-70mm introduces the 82mm filter size as the new standard size for the yet to be completed new triple lens set.
2) There might be a new AFS 17-35mm/2.8 with this filter size, having more focal range than the 14-24mm and still allow for filters to be attached. The AFS 17-35mm was introduced with the D3 in 2007 and the AFS 16-35mm/4 never emotionally catched on the other f2.8 lenses in this line. So this success is kind of long overdue.
3) The AFS 70-200mm VR II is the lens which from an optical performance has the lowest upgrade need. Might only be a minor update with an "E" aperture control and all the new FL, nano, etc. gadgets applied. And of course 82mm filter size :)

rgds, Andy


Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 22, 2016, 15:29:20
Under point#2 I think you might refer to the 14-24/2.8? The 17-35/2.8 was released in 1999 for the F5 and D1.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Erik Lund on March 22, 2016, 15:30:06
Thank you for your thoughts!

I agree on most, and yes the wide and the long Pro zooms must follow the 24-70mmAFS E VR trend - Some amazing lenses if they pull that off  ;)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 22, 2016, 15:41:59
Nikon certainly have the optical expertise required to update all these pro lenses. The question is more whether the users have the economic means to replace their current working gear?

The 24-70/2.8 E certainly was an excellent piece of glass. Had I been in the targeted audience I would have replaced my 24-70G without a second thought. Now, I just keep it.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 22, 2016, 15:51:11
Under point#2 I think you might refer to the 14-24/2.8? The 17-35/2.8 was released in 1999 for the F5 and D1.
No. I just mixed it up - my error. Plain and simple. Sorry.

The AFS 17-35mm/2.8 was indeed introduced 1999 with the D1.
The AFS 14-24mm/2.8 came with the D3 in 2007.
I have it even covered in my own D1 birthday post (https://nikonandye.wordpress.com/thenikondfamily/) - just check the 1999 and 2007 entries. There they are on the D1 and D3 :)

I am getting old ....
:)
Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 22, 2016, 15:54:05
"I am getting old ...."

You are not alone, if that's a consolation .... I can still remember the enjoyment of putting the brand new D1 + 17-35 to work back in late 1999. Many photons have hit Earth since then, but the attraction of digital photography has not faded.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Erik Lund on March 22, 2016, 17:00:37
But the massage was clear enough despite the dating! ;)

Yes I was also a fond D1 17-35mm AFS shooter  8)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: PeterTaylor on March 22, 2016, 18:28:55
The AFS 70-200mm VR II is the lens which from an optical performance has the lowest upgrade need. Might only be a minor update with an "E" aperture control and all the new FL, nano, etc. gadgets applied. And of course 82mm filter size :)

rgds, Andy

From an optical perspective yes, but it suffers heavily from focus breathing. That´s the reason why I still stick with my VRI version and longing for an VRIII without that issue.

Best regards,
Peter
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Erik Lund on March 22, 2016, 18:44:37
I agree it suffers from focus breathing and therefore not quite close enough for portrait work,,,
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Roland Vink on March 22, 2016, 20:41:30
Quote
1) The AFS 24-70mm/2.8G VR seems to be the early bird in this generational change. Electronic aperture control, VR, etc. But the 82mm filter size seemed odd to me at the beginning. As it is a very unusual filter size.
Nikon have made lenses with 82mm filter size previously, although it is uncommon:
- AF 300/4 (also accepts 39mm rear filters)
- Reflex 500/8 (new) (also accepts 39mm rear filters)
- Old 85-250 and 200-600 zooms

During the manual focus era, the standard size filter was 52mm for small lenses, and 72mm for larger. With the AIS range 62mm was added as an intermediate size. Since the AF era, the "large standard" increased to 77mm, starting with the AF 80-200 in 1987. Since then virtually every high-spec lens has used this filter size, including many recent releases such as the AFS 300/4 PF and AFS 20/1.8. It would be hard to persuade photographers to now buy another set of even larger, more expensive filters. I'm hoping the 24-70 VR is a one-off.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 23, 2016, 00:11:14
Over at Nikonrumors, Bill Claff's data points for the D5 vs. D4 are discussed.

As expected there is significant discussion about the lower dynamic range at low ISO settings. Like with most cameras and lenses, there seems to be a need to find an easy to communicate "weakness/defect/issue" per model, that warrants lots of debate in the months to come. The AF issue early D800's had, the spots on some D600s, the VR issue of the 300mm PF lens, to name a few. Ok, seems to be necessary these days. :)
http://nikonrumors.com/2016/03/21/nikon-d5-now-shipping-additional-coverage-hint-there-is-a-new-lord-of-darkness.aspx/#more-103127

But my favorite quote of the day comes from commenter NWCS:

Someone needs to start a therapy group for photographers: Coping With Specification Disappointment.
And then a recovery group: In Pursuit of Pictures Not Measurements.


:D
Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 23, 2016, 00:27:30
Most of these gearheads over at Dpreview and suchlike arenas will never use a D5 nor buy one. Their contribution is in generating internet noise in order to feel all-important.

We saw this in the debacle around the Df and all its alleged short-comings. Responses go on auto-repeat regarding the D5.

Andy, do enjoy your D5 when it arrives in the near future. I'm sure you will make great stuff out of it.

I signed up for a review camera, but to be honest I'm more anxious to get my hands on the D500. Nothing wrong with the D5, but it is the D500 I already have on order.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 23, 2016, 01:39:13
Thanks Bjorn,
I already enjoyed the weekend with the D5, even if it this sample was not mine.
The familiarity with the existing Nikon bodies facilitated much to get immediately decent results. The learning curve is pretty fast because it is so low.

I do think (no evidence, just thinking) that the D500 will have a few things of benefits in common with the D5. I could imagine that the exposure meter might be as stable as with the D5. The balanced WB measurement could be similar. The measurment might be the same, but I don't know if the D500 sensor has an identical color reproduction curve like the D5. If they are based on the same sensor architecture, then this would be simpler to achiieve. If the sensors are of fundamentally different architecture, this could lead to a different color reproduction vs. the D5 (not saying that either is better. Just different).

With more D5's now coming to users, I'd love to see then the broader perspective of use cases outside my type of photography this camera is capable of.predecessor
While the innovation period for the D5 was approx 2 years (since the D4s was launched), the D500 has the potential to demonstrate much more improvement as a package. The D300s would probably be the closest predecessor from a DX "package" perspective, with the D7200 being a valuable benchmark for sensor performance.

Only a month to go (hopefully) and we will know more about the D500.

rgds, Andy

PS:
I am sorry for not spending all the time with test charts etc.
While on tour with the D5, I was sometimes distracted - or shall I say "intrigued" - by the smell of delicious cheese. Like here. Please see what a D5 cheese snapshot looks like ;)
(Taken from NEF with NX-D, lifted shadows slightly by +10, no further pp, resized to 1920x1280)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: chris dees on March 23, 2016, 07:54:03
.......

I signed up for a review camera, but to be honest I'm more anxious to get my hands on the D500. Nothing wrong with the D5, but it is the D500 I already have on order.

It would be nice if you have your copy of the D500 before Scotland. :)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 23, 2016, 09:40:16
Andy one: The Cheese would have been nicer with the 45PC. Focus on the well lit cheese the somewhat chaotic dark structure as a blurry BG.

Andy two: Did you test some slow AF primes like the 85s and the 50s? How does the AF on the D5 differ compared to earlier AF system incarnations?

Andy three: I was tinking a lot about your concept of the "photon budget". Yes, the D600 has 3x photon budget compared to the D3 ... BUT ...  We compare apples & oranges here as one is measured at "base ISO" 200 the other at 100. Should we not look at the photon budget depending on our intended light levels?

http://sensorgen.info/NikonD600.html
http://sensorgen.info/NikonD700.html
http://sensorgen.info/NikonDf.html

That said it seems like a great idea for Nikon to shell out another D5, name suggestion D5L (for "Low" ISO) featuring the buffer, the fresh Exspeed, the AF, the ruggetized body, all I want and need as a cradle for the 24MP genius.

The combination of the D5 and the D5L as a two body set will give the best of both worlds to any PJ or agency worker.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 23, 2016, 09:53:02
It would be nice if you have your copy of the D500 before Scotland. :)

Pushing for it and crossing fingers it'll be there. I'm on the first batch of allotments for NPS members. Nikon Nordic says "April arrival" but so far no clue as to when in that month.

However, the world doesn't end if I have to wait for my camera. There are plenty of alternatives floating around in the lens house...
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 23, 2016, 10:07:04
On the german Nikon website, a link to the D5 User manual is available since today:
http://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/de/products/320/D5.html

Here is the Nikon/UK link for the english version:
http://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/products/320/D5.html

rgds, Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 23, 2016, 10:16:56
Page 54
Silent Mode
!!!GREAT NEWS!!!!
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Erik Lund on March 23, 2016, 10:53:22
Frank, I'm afraid you're comparing the apple to the orange here, not Andy,,,

Not trying to answer for Andy, but it is just collected data, just comparing cameras, remember different tools for different jobs.

Great work Andy Et Al.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 23, 2016, 11:40:20
Erik:

at ISO 200 the

D600 has a photon budget of 4028 x 6080 x 38610 per frame = 945.568.166.400 photons counted per frame
D700 has a photon budget of 2844 x 4288 x 47215 per frame = 575.790.324.480 photons counted per frame
Df  has a photon budget of 3292 x 4992 x 66217 per frame = 1.088.187.929.088 photons counted per frame

That is comparable data. No apples and oranges.

The way I understand it this means that the Df should deliver about the same quality output @ISO200 as the D600 (trading in tonality for spatial resolution)


PS: The D810 has at ISO 200 a photon budget of 4928 x 7380 x 24822 =  902.742.382.080 photons counted per frame  (trading in more tonality for more spatial resulution)

PPS: I expect the D850 carrying the Alpha7R2-Chip, loosing less photons to constructional issues, combining super tonality with extraordinary spatial resolution

PPPS: For me the question remains: Where is the threshold for perception? When can one actually "see" the difference in photon budget?
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Hermann on March 23, 2016, 19:15:29
I am sorry for not spending all the time with test charts etc.
While on tour with the D5, I was sometimes distracted - or shall I say "intrigued" - by the smell of delicious cheese. Like here. Please see what a D5 cheese snapshot looks like ;)
(Taken from NEF with NX-D, lifted shadows slightly by +10, no further pp, resized to 1920x1280)

Nice. I really, really like cheese ...  ::)

BTW, how do you find NX-D works with the NEF files from the D5? On the whole I think NX-D is slowly getting there, seems much more stable and somewhat faster now than the ealier versions were, even on a slow system with only 4GB RAM.

Hermann
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 24, 2016, 00:34:10
The NEF Codec update with D5 support for Win/Mac is available since today:
http://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/products/170/NEF_Codec.html

Talking about Nikon links.
In the past and starting with the D3X, the NPS team has produced technical guides of selected cameras, like the D3s, D3X, D4, D4s, D800/E and D810.
It will probably take time for the appropriate D5 information, but my guess is that when it will show up, it will show up in this place.
http://nps.nikonimaging.com/technical_solutions/

Hermann:
I am a long time Capture NX user, "forced" by recent camera acquisitions to use NX-D (D750, D7200 and now D5) as CaptureNX doesn't support them anymore. Haven't used NX-D too much yet, but initial usage and experience is not bad. Good to see that CPUs with 4 cores seem to be using all of them for selected operations. For speed critical activities like image selection and finding old files, I continue to use other - much faster - tools.

rgds, Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 24, 2016, 01:31:43
For me the question remains: Where is the threshold for perception? When can one actually "see" the difference in photon budget?

Frank, one quick example.
For instance, comparing a D600 and a D200. You want to capture the same scenery and the final output size should be the same.
The D600 can capture about 10x more registered photons than the venerable D200. A D600 image, underexposed by 3 EV has still more "photons" available than the properly exposed D200 photo, for rendering the image at a certain quality level.

It will be interesting to see, what the "budget" for the D5 will be.

rgds,
Andy

Pics:
1) Comparing  D600 and D200
2) A D600 image, intentionally underexposed to minimize the highlights of the small street lights and lights from the snow cannons (D600, AFS 16-35mm/4, f8, 30s)
3) same image, just applied 2 seconds of post processing efforts in CNX (I think it was: Set ADL to HQ )
4) Larger version of (3), 1920x1280
5) 100% crop of the processed 24MP image. On one of the recovered very dark areas on the mountain side. Still decent texture
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 24, 2016, 08:30:48
Thank you Andy. In your #118 example the comparison between D200 and D600 extends only to sensor data.

My question was aiming more at the visual comparsion. So.

Can I see the difference in photon budget between 2 Billion and 3 Billion photons per frame?

Can we produce proof as in footage?

In the studio I did a proper test with a Schneider APO Digitar a while ago.

Candidates were the D800E and the D600. Result: Although the Pixel budget was not much different
skin tones on the D800E looked "flatter, less fleshy, less lively" while on the D600 skintones looked natural
very soft gradients very nice. The D600 had visually less spatial resolution visible in fine hair and pores
The lens outperforms both sensors. The footage can be found on the old site iirc

used D3X or new D600? """" was the topic title.

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 24, 2016, 08:33:13
EDIT: many people cannot see this link, so I posted the content I referred to into the thread further down.

Here we go: http://www.fotozones.com/live/index.php/topic/45866-old-d3x-or-new-d600/page-1
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 24, 2016, 08:48:06
Sorry Frank - this link leads to nowhere unless you are a subscriber to Fotozones and logged in concomitantly.

Don't post this kind of links as they are of little use to most people.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 24, 2016, 10:08:02
Thank you Andy. In your #118 example the comparison between D200 and D600 extends only to sensor data.
My question was aiming more at the visual comparsion. So.
Frank,
we are deviating a bit away from the D5 with this discussion. Post #118 wasn't a formal visual "comparison" between D600 and D200.
I used the D600 example as an "unilateral" example to show what is possible with D600 data, vs. what would have been a much larger "issue" if this very same picture would have been taken with the D200. Like many others, I've used the D200 extensively in the past and these kinds of of conditions where close to impossible to recover with a D200. So I thought the single D600 example was sufficient to show the progress we now enjoy so regularily with modern sensors. Sorry for this oversimplified approach to support my point.

If interested, we can start a separate thread on this topic, but I'd appreciate, if we rather stay on D5 themes in this thread.

wrt to D5:
When I picked up the D5 last Friday, I got a copy of the German edition of the new printed brochure which covers the D5, D500 and the new flash.
1) there was a reference to low light capabilities of the D5 stating, that it is able to represent colorful images at "astronomical twilight (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight#Astronomical_twilight)" conditions. I've never seen a camera manufacturer making such a statement (and it is not in the english PDF version of the D5 brochure)
2) While reading the brochure yesterday evening, I found 2 potential errors in it:
2a) There is a statement that with a fast USB3 reader the XQD cards can transfer 1000 NEFs in 35 sec to your computer. Given the average size of 25 MB/NEF I saw with my sample D5, this would translate to 710 MB/s - this is beyond the specification of currently available XQD cards and the specification of the USB3 interface (approx 500 MB/s). The max specified data rate for the Lexar 2933x card is 440 MB/s. This would amount to 15 MB/NEF, which I haven't seen yet. May be the reduced NEFs would be in this range, don't know. My guess is that they meant JPEGs, because this would be in the range of possible transfer rates. (JPEG's are between 10 and 12 MB per large/fine JPEG)
2b) The capture line of the image with the bear says "ISO 65535". Seemingly, the editors preparing this brochure used a computer which hadn't had the new NEF codec installed to be able to report the likely "correct" ISO of 102400, as I have never seen any D5 image with such a real ISO value. (For the non-computer geeks: 65535 is the largest value a 16-bit unsigned integer can represent and this number often indicates a potential error or unexpected condition in a software. With the new NEF codec the respective driver in the operating system was updated and corrected this initial issue)
3) wrt to the utility of the Hi3 and Hi5 settings which seemingly aren't usable for photography. Just an idea: They might be of "better value" when recording video in High Definition (1920x1080). The brochure showed which part of the sensor is used by which video mode, and while the 4k mode has a 1:1 pixel equivalency with the pixel on the sensor, the 1920x1080 HD mode covers almost all of the sensor surface (bar the top/bottom area to accomodate the 16:9 video aspect ratio on a 3:2 sensor). This allows a significant downsampling from the 5568x3132 recording pixels to the 1920x1080 output pixel (ratio = 8.4 : 1). Together with the usual blur of motion capture, the upper ISO limit of this video mode might be higher than for photography. As said, just a guess the reading of the brochure triggered. To be checked, when a camera is available again. (I am currently "D5-less" :) )
4) The brochure is the first brochure Nikon released for a single digit model in our language, which does not contain a section with technical data. Interesting (for a 28-page brochure).

rgds, Andy


Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Erik Lund on March 24, 2016, 10:44:57
,,,,
Talking about Nikon links.
In the past and starting with the D3X, the NPS team has produced technical guides of selected cameras, like the D3s, D3X, D4, D4s, D800/E and D810.
It will probably take time for the appropriate D5 information, but my guess is that when it will show up, it will show up in this place.
http://nps.nikonimaging.com/technical_solutions/ (http://nps.nikonimaging.com/technical_solutions/)
,,,,,,
rgds, Andy

Yes very nice tutorials as usual! Highly recommended ;)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: simsurace on March 24, 2016, 10:56:37
When can one actually "see" the difference in photon budget?

Scenes with a high dynamic range and scenes with very low light. We keep pushing to domains that were previously inaccessible. But I still think: a shot with crappy lighting will always be a shot with crappy lighting, no matter how good your high ISO performance is.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 24, 2016, 11:00:02
... a shot with crappy lighting will always be a shot with crappy lighting, no matter how good your high ISO performance is.

ain't that the Universal Truth ...

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 24, 2016, 11:21:02
On page 99 and 100 of the english version of the user manual, Nikon lists some graphs and data on the interaction of lens types, TC combinations with lenses and their respective implications on the number of available AF cross sensors.
In a nutshell, the 500mm/f4 and 200-400mm/4 lenses can only use the center field AF cross sensors(with the exception of the 500mm FL version), the 600mm/f4 in addition one row of outer AF cross sensors on each side (no exception for the 600mm FL). Most other lenses below f4 have the full coverage of AF cross sensors.

please refer to the D5 manual for more detail (don't want to copy the 2 pages into the thread)

rgds, Andy

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 24, 2016, 12:15:06
Sorry Frank - this link leads to nowhere unless you are a subscriber to Fotozones and logged in concomitantly.
Don't post this kind of links as they are of little use to most people.

Sorry, did not know this. Andy, Erik & You were in this thread at the time. Ich will share the links to the footage in a second. The NEF are still on my own server to download...
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 24, 2016, 12:20:05
We have no influence on what material is accessible to visitors on Fotozones. Their access policy changes over time as well.

Only material available to the general public should as a rule be linked to and this applies to any web site.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 24, 2016, 12:34:11
Here are the links to my site:

http://fotokontext.de/neutral_ooc.jpg (left D600 ooc JPEG, right D3 ooc JPEG ... idea: show the generatation gap in every respect also in low light) original caption: D600 vs. D3 all settings neutral, ISO4000, WB=Auto, JPEG out of cam 100% view in photoshop, both handheld with AFS2.8/60G

My wish concerning this post: Please someone compare D3, D4, D5 output side by side visually

The pictures:

-- same light
-- same portrait situation
-- Sinar P2 with Schneider APO Digitar 5.6/120mm (new version introduced at Photokina 2012) fully open
-- just together Nikon-Sinar-adapter
-- D3, D600 (RAW+JPEG L fine, WB=Auto, A1 for D600, base ISO, Neutral-Setting)
-- I did also shoot the D7000 but left the setting on RAW+JPEG M fine accidentially, so no fair chance for her
-- All MUP and cable release (D600 and D7000 IR)

I give you the JPEGs and the RAWs out of cam for examination plus a RFC.

Cheers

Frank

(D7k) http://fotokontext.de/HSC_1848.JPG
(D7k) http://fotokontext.de/HSC_1848.NEF

(D3) http://fotokontext.de/CEP_6181.JPG
(D3) http://fotokontext.de/CEP_6181.NEF

(D600) http://fotokontext.de/DSC_7706.JPG
(D600) http://fotokontext.de/DSC_7706.NEF



PS: Now I have to dig for the D800E footage too

PPS: Normal edited D3-shot (the rest is ooc): http://fotokontext.de/auswahl_CEP_1802_EDT.JPG
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Herbie49 on March 25, 2016, 11:03:11
The D5 in action up in the Swiss mountains: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLqe6ITFhpw&feature=youtu.be
Sorry, language spoken is Swiss German.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 26, 2016, 22:15:24
The "D5-less" period ended earlier today, picked up my copy (XQD version) :)

The SB-5000 did also arrive:
The flash unit is smaller than the SB-910, rather the size of the previous SB-800. While the size difference is more or less irrelevant when mounted on the bulky D5, it might be welcomed for those uses with smaller cameras like the Df and D750. Here are the 3 models with zoom ranges and GN number.
SB910: 17-200mm, GN(ISO100, 35mm): 34
SB800: 24-105mm, GN(ISO100, 35mm): 38
SB-5000: 24-200mm, GN (ISO100, 35mm): 34.5

Setting the zoom position to 200mm, the SB-910 has a GN of 53, while the SB-5000 has 55. The larger head of the SB-910 comes moste likely from the lower value at the wide end (17mm), vs. 24mm for the SB-5000. All 3 flashes can be set with additional means up to 14mm.

I don't have multiple SB-5000 flashes yet, so I can't check the new wireless system of this flash generation.
Anyway, the Gary Fong diffuser are easier to attach on the SB-5000 than on the SB-910, due to the smaller head size. This is positive for me, as I use the diffuser quite frequently when using flash.

On D5 serial numbers:
The earlier D5 from last weekend was one equipped with dual CF card slots. The serial number began with 65xxxxx. The D5 with XQD slots has a serial number starting with 60xxxxx. "6" is usually the number for European cameras, "2" for US, etc ... Don't know if the D5 will have multiple number"zones" (According to Roland's list (http://www.photosynthesis.co.nz/nikon/camera.html), the single digit bodies normally don't - the D4 being the exception)


rgds & happy easter (*),
Andy

(*)  for the geos, where easter "apply" :)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 26, 2016, 22:53:26
Earlier today, my family visited a mountain farmer we knew since ages. When my kids where small and barely able to walk, we often visited her. Over the years we lost contact but decided to visit her today. She is approaching the age of 100 and still doing the farmwork by herself after her husband died decades ago. Due to the small window and the low-power bulb in one corner, the room was quite dim. While we spend the most time chatting, I also did some pictures without any particular attention to the photography part of the experience we encountered. As discussed before, the D5 extends the "no-brainer" range to ISO 6400-12800. It is such a good feeling to see how well the D5 handles the WB and exposure parts (and keep the ISO setting on auto with a max at either 6400 or 12800). It doesn't always need to be record breaking ISO capabilities, the sweet spot is much lower, imho.
Well, those images could have been done with other cameras, I am sure. And they might be of little value for others. But what was intriguing for me was the "ease" during taking and the no-need-to-postprocess which made this capturing of personal moments so enjoyable.

rgds, Andy

Here are a few examples (all images taken with the D5, AFS 24-70mm/2.8 VR, just resized, no postprocessing):
1) the farmer, still doing most of the work with her hands (ISO 6400, heavy mixed light conditions))
2) She still does the wood (ISO 5000)
3) The corner of the stable with 2 cows and 1 sheep. Very dark, the unaided human eye wouldn't see these colors in the corner.
4) every day's work (ISO 2800)

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 26, 2016, 23:40:22
In case you are asking yourself, why some people need fast frame rates and a swift AF system.

This D5 captured a Formular 1 car crash a few days ago:
http://blog.iamnikon.com/en_GB/f1/crash-alonso-f1-australia-grand-prix/
Good, that the driver  - Alonso - escaped uninjured, despite some serious desintegration of his car he was sitting in.
The D5 AF seems to work well though ...


Marianne Oelund (http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57500475) picked up a D5 as well (One of her D4 was at 900.000 frames).

Some AF experiences (http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3983356?page=2) shooting Beach Volleyball.


rgds, Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Jakov Minić on March 26, 2016, 23:48:40
Thank you Andy for all the D5 reviews. I am thoroughly enjoying reading them.
Having used the D4 and Df simultaneously I can vouch that there is a huge difference in handling and I know exactly what you mean when you say that you can simply rely on the camera to make the image you envisaged or not. Speed can be crucial sometimes and that's where the big D's reign supreme :)
(I wish I had one regardless of its size and weight)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Erik Lund on March 26, 2016, 23:52:08
Thanks for the update! Looking forward to more ;)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: James Farrell on March 27, 2016, 00:01:14
On page 99 and 100 of the english version of the user manual, Nikon lists some graphs and data on the interaction of lens types, TC combinations with lenses and their respective implications on the number of available AF cross sensors.
In a nutshell, the 500mm/f4 and 200-400mm/4 lenses can only use the center field AF cross sensors(with the exception of the 500mm FL version), the 600mm/f4 in addition one row of outer AF cross sensors on each side (no exception for the 600mm FL). Most other lenses below f4 have the full coverage of AF cross sensors.

please refer to the D5 manual for more detail (don't want to copy the 2 pages into the thread)

rgds, Andy
Andy (and anyone else): I saw this table in the D5 manual a few days ago and it raised some questions. I don't understand why my Nikon 200-400 f/4 VR-2, for example, is limited to the 45 center AF cross sensors. That said, I do understand that when one adds a teleconverter that starts to limit the number of cross sensors. But why would a "naked" lens (i.e. no teleconverter mounted) of the caliber of the 200-400/4 VR-2 be limited in use of AF cross sensors? I must be missing something (not unusual). Thanks in advance for helping my senior-citizen brain try to understand this.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 27, 2016, 11:00:55
Yesterday,
I've provided Bill Claff more and other test images he asked for last week. To further his as usual very good and insightful analysis - this time about the read noise of the D5 sensor.
Plus, pls also see Marianne Oelund's comments in the thread @dpreview.

Here is his first take (of the second part) of it:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3983969

Here is the first part, for those who are interested:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3981547

rgds, Andy

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Vilhelm on March 27, 2016, 19:12:28

My wish concerning this post: Please someone compare D3, D4, D5 output side by side visually

Don't have a D3, but I have a D4S and the above requested comparison is so time-consuming that I am confident some professional gear blogger will do it. I don't have the gear nor the time to complete such a comparison.

I got my D5 last Thursday, and have since been shooting with it. I always felt with the D4 that ISO 8,000-9,000 was the maximum acceptable quality, with the D4S the same quality maximum was set at ISO 18,000-20,000. With the D5, I find that ISO 40-64k is fine and depending on dominant color channel even ISO 80,000 looks acceptable, with the same quality standards (noise/detail/grain).

This is ISO 64,000 on a D5. I really really have difficulty in grabbing the D4S for a photoshot, now that I am growing accustomed to the D5 performance

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: dibyendumajumdar on March 27, 2016, 22:15:04
Hi - thanks for posting the samples from D5. I am curious about the D5's AF system's accuracy with F1.4 lenses as compared to the D4. Has there been any improvement in this regard?

Thanks and Regards
Dibyendu
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Vilhelm on March 27, 2016, 23:21:03
Hi - thanks for posting the samples from D5. I am curious about the D5's AF system's accuracy with F1.4 lenses as compared to the D4. Has there been any improvement in this regard?

This is somewhat confusing to me, did the D4/D4S have problems with focus accuracy on f/1.4 lenses? I never experienced that.

I've used the D5 for 4 days now, of which only one day was real work. Can't say too much of the AF other than that it feels better than what I was used to when focusing on moving targets (used to = I used a D4 and D4S before)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: dibyendumajumdar on March 27, 2016, 23:41:13
This is somewhat confusing to me, did the D4/D4S have problems with focus accuracy on f/1.4 lenses? I never experienced that.

Hi - I found focusing on moving targets at F1.4 was not accurate/reliable. This is also stated by Rob Galbraith in his review of the D4 (http://www.robgalbraith.com/multi_page9056.html?cid=7-12721-12406). I understand that this is a known issue in that the AF system in Nikon cameras was designed with F2.8 and below in mind - please also see this thread by Marianne Oelund (http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/54211961).

Since the D5 has a new AF sensor I was wondering if AF with faster lenses has improved.

Regards
Dibyendu

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Erik Lund on March 28, 2016, 00:30:07
With all due respect, the 1.4 AFS lenses focus just fine on D3, D3X, D4 and D810 IMHO

They are not as fast focusing as the Pro f/2.8 zooms but there is another reason for that.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 28, 2016, 01:27:37
I am curious about the D5's AF system's accuracy with F1.4 lenses as compared to the D4. Has there been any improvement in this regard?
Thanks and Regards
Dibyendu
Dibyendu,
the answer is the usual yes and no :)

Depending of the lens/camera combo, the D5 is sometimes like a few of my other bodies off the focal plane with a few fast lenses (Please consider that Nikon calibrates AF systems with a 50mm/1.4 reference lens set at f2.8. I heard this back in 2011). I had a few of my bodies and fast lenses travelling mutiple times to Nikon's service facility in Dusseldorf in 2011 (the whole process took more than 2 months and brought forward the spectral sensitivity of AF systems built into the D3/D3s/D3X/D7000, plus a few other gimmicks. The spectral issue had been fixed in the D4/D800 generation. More info on this exercise (http://www.nikon-fotografie.de/vbulletin/nikon-d7000/151532-fokusprobleme-mit-neuen-lichtstarken-objektiven.html) in german language). This is the bad part.

The good part is, that fixing it with the D5 is a sneeze vs. the previous cameras.

The Auto AF fine tune is described in the Menu Guide on page 110 (The Menue Guide is only available as PDF, it is not in the box. There is only the User Manual as printed doc)
Correcting the AF of a lens takes about 5 seconds (*) if you have a proper target (i.e. a vertical plan sheet). The AF is then not "perfect" in the pixelpeeper sense (neither is the Live View AF always 100% correct at this level), but it is as simple as to be very valuable that you can do it on the fly when needed.

rgds, Andy

(*) 5 seconds is now the time it takes to set AF when the camera is on a tripod. It is really simple.
but ....
My first attempt took roughly 30 mins, I was close on raising a service request for help :(
1) I couldn't find the AF fine tuning button sequence in the user manual. There is no mentioning on auto AF fine tune in the D5 User Manual.
2) There was info in the internet that the button combination was (AF-mode) and (shutter release) - but that didn't work ...
3) When I figured out that it was covered in the downloaded Menu Guide, the right button combination to press is "AF-mode" and "Video-Rec"
4) Then the error message popped up every single time "Auto AF fine tune is not available at current focus setting" and didn't let me store the adjustment value
5) The culprit was the focus selector in LiveView mode: It has to be *exact" in the center of live view field. Putting it approximate there doesn't do the trick. Pressing the OK button in LiveView to put it perfectly in the center did the trick and brought me over the finish line that I could store the AF compensation value.
6) Now it is really a short and convenient process

rgds, Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 28, 2016, 08:50:04
Thank you Andreas. That is a very good argument for the D5 and D500.

Fast prime performance suffers most from not fine tuned AF.

A 5 second fix is a viable solution.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 28, 2016, 10:39:17
Marianne Oelund started a thread "D5 - New features and Issues"
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3984292

Initial comments on:
High-ISO Image Quality, camera JPEGs
AF speed/consistency
New Advance Mode Control
LCD and Viewfinder display changes
Menu display of folder number
Folder names
Playback Image Numbering
AF Fine Tune Default range
Third-party lens issue

On XQD readers - just seen @NFF:
With the initial batch of D5 comes a Sony XQD card and a card reader. Pls consider that the with the D5 supplied Sony card reader QDA-SB1A can't read the "old" XQD cards we used to have with the D4 (The "H" Series). There is another card Sony reader MRW-E90, which can read all XQD card models. Sony XQD speed and compatibility list: http://www.sony.net/Products/memorycard/en_us/xqd/



rgds,
Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Tersn on March 28, 2016, 10:52:09

The good part is, that fixing it with the D5 is a sneeze vs. the previous cameras.

The Auto AF fine tune is described in the Menu Guide on page 110 (The Menue Guide is only available as PDF, it is not in the box. There is only the User Manual as printed doc)
Correcting the AF of a lens takes about 5 seconds (*) if you have a proper target (i.e. a vertical plan sheet). The AF is then not "perfect" in the pixelpeeper sense (neither is the Live View AF always 100% correct at this level), but it is as simple as to be very valuable that you can do it on the fly when needed.

rgds, Andy

(*) 5 seconds is now the time it takes to set AF when the camera is on a tripod. It is really simple.
but ....
My first attempt took roughly 30 mins, I was close on raising a service request for help :(
1) I couldn't find the AF fine tuning button sequence in the user manual. There is no mentioning on auto AF fine tune in the D5 User Manual.
2) There was info in the internet that the button combination was (AF-mode) and (shutter release) - but that didn't work ...
3) When I figured out that it was covered in the downloaded Menu Guide, the right button combination to press is "AF-mode" and "Video-Rec"
4) Then the error message popped up every single time "Auto AF fine tune is not available at current focus setting" and didn't let me store the adjustment value
5) The culprit was the focus selector in LiveView mode: It has to be *exact" in the center of live view field. Putting it approximate there doesn't do the trick. Pressing the OK button in LiveView to put it perfectly in the center did the trick and brought me over the finish line that I could store the AF compensation value.
6) Now it is really a short and convenient process

rgds, Andy

Thanks, for sharing this useful info, Andy! It is hard to understand why Nikon made it so difficult to find it and why they failed to be mentioned it in the D5 User Manual etc.  :o
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Marc on March 28, 2016, 15:08:24


The Auto AF fine tune is described in the Menu Guide on page 110 (The Menue Guide is only available as PDF, it is not in the box. There is only the User Manual as printed doc)
Correcting the AF of a lens takes about 5 seconds (*) if you have a proper target (i.e. a vertical plan sheet). The AF is then not "perfect" in the pixelpeeper sense (neither is the Live View AF always 100% correct at this level), but it is as simple as to be very valuable that you can do it on the fly when needed.

rgds, Andy

(*) 5 seconds is now the time it takes to set AF when the camera is on a tripod. It is really simple.
but ....
My first attempt took roughly 30 mins, I was close on raising a service request for help :(
1) I couldn't find the AF fine tuning button sequence in the user manual. There is no mentioning on auto AF fine tune in the D5 User Manual.
2) There was info in the internet that the button combination was (AF-mode) and (shutter release) - but that didn't work ...
3) When I figured out that it was covered in the downloaded Menu Guide, the right button combination to press is "AF-mode" and "Video-Rec"
4) Then the error message popped up every single time "Auto AF fine tune is not available at current focus setting" and didn't let me store the adjustment value
5) The culprit was the focus selector in LiveView mode: It has to be *exact" in the center of live view field. Putting it approximate there doesn't do the trick. Pressing the OK button in LiveView to put it perfectly in the center did the trick and brought me over the finish line that I could store the AF compensation value.
6) Now it is really a short and convenient process

rgds, Andy

Many thanks for this Andy,

I too was looking for AF Auto tune in the manual and was going nuts why I couldn't see it, so appreciate your investigations!  ;D

Regards

Marc
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: dibyendumajumdar on March 28, 2016, 22:36:23
@Erik and @Andy - thank you for the responses.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 28, 2016, 23:04:35
DPReview published their first D5/D4s StudioComparisonHighIsoNoiseScene
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0715893019/nikon-d5-studio-scene-comparison-published
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=nikon_d5&attr13_1=nikon_d4s&attr13_2=canon_eos1dx&attr13_3=sony_a7sii&attr15_0=jpeg&attr15_1=jpeg&attr15_2=jpeg&attr15_3=jpeg&attr16_0=100&attr16_1=100&attr16_2=100&attr16_3=100&attr171_2=off&attr171_3=off&normalization=full&widget=1&x=-0.0030276816608996904&y=-0.0014892443463871783

I would not be surprised if over time we will see 2 trends:
1) The internet community interpreting valid measurements asking the "Why shall I upgrade question".
2) In the same time users are enjoying the combined capabilities of the new tool.

This raises potentially two related questions:
1) Do we need better measurement metrics reflecting a new broader set of emerging attributes (noise pattern design, SW processing algorithms, ease of producing a "final" image, etc ....) or,
2) are users increasingly decoupling their "user experience" from underlying and existing "hard" metrics?

Hmmm, what's your view?

rgds, Andy

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 28, 2016, 23:11:02
Assumption #2 is increasingly becoming the current trend. Numbers are easy to interpret as being "objective" measures.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 28, 2016, 23:25:38
One more:

DPReview: "Studio report: Nikon D5 has lowest base ISO dynamic range of any current FF Nikon DSLR (http://www.dpreview.com/news/9402203921/nikon-d5-shows-drop-in-dynamic-range)"

rgds, Andy


Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: simsurace on March 28, 2016, 23:40:13
The last result is puzzling, but I don't think their method (i.e. Using ACR to push back underexposed shots) is the best way to measure what they want to measure ('dynamic range'). I don't know what they know, but neither do I know what is happening to the raw data as you lift exposure in ACR, and to what extent those manipulations depend on the camera profile. You have to wonder why analyses are not done on the raw data itself rather than on data filtered by a raw converter.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on March 28, 2016, 23:57:49
I would guess since DXO will do their analysis based on the raw data, dpreview doesn't want to do the exact same thing but something different. They'll no doubt show dxo results once those are published.

I think both DXO and dpreview overemphasize the importance of base ISO dynamic range. The D5 is a fast camera and it is likely that the fast analog-to-digital conversion adds some noise that we wouldn't see in slower cameras. I don't see a huge issue here but this does make the D5 a little bit less general purpose than it might have been. If shooting action in bright sunlight one may wish for as much dynamic range as possible but want to retain the AF and fps of the D5. I don't need high fps often so I can use the D810 for most high contrast scenes and there is, of course, exposure blending. The D5 isn't a landscape camera so it is strange why reviewers test it like it were one. It's a bit like testing studded winter tires in the middle of summer and complaining about lack of friction and loud noise.

It does seem surprising that Nikon were not able to meet the D4s's DR at base ISO ... only 1 fps difference in speed (more if shooting at 14fps of course, without viewfinder). But, I don't think the difference is a big deal.

Evaluating the quality of real world images is subject to the effects of whatever software one is using. This can cloud the differences between hardware. However I think ultimately most people take a practical approach and see what the camera can do in the real world and evaluate that in their own usage.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: bjornthun on March 29, 2016, 03:40:55
The last result is puzzling, but I don't think their method (i.e. Using ACR to push back underexposed shots) is the best way to measure what they want to measure ('dynamic range'). I don't know what they know, but neither do I know what is happening to the raw data as you lift exposure in ACR, and to what extent those manipulations depend on the camera profile. You have to wonder why analyses are not done on the raw data itself rather than on data filtered by a raw converter.
Underexposing -1 EV seems to contradict the ETTR rule. Shouldn't they also try to find out how extract the maximum DR they possibly could, and then report what result they got and how they got it, i.e. how did they expose to acquire the result. How do we know that the testing methodology, -1 EV undeexposure, is valid for the D5 or any other camera, or across generations of cameras, D3 - D4 - D5? That's nine years of camera development, a long time in the computer age.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: bjornthun on March 29, 2016, 03:44:53
Andy one: The Cheese would have been nicer with the 45PC. Focus on the well lit cheese the somewhat chaotic dark structure as a blurry BG.

Andy two: Did you test some slow AF primes like the 85s and the 50s? How does the AF on the D5 differ compared to earlier AF system incarnations?

Andy three: I was tinking a lot about your concept of the "photon budget". Yes, the D600 has 3x photon budget compared to the D3 ... BUT ...  We compare apples & oranges here as one is measured at "base ISO" 200 the other at 100. Should we not look at the photon budget depending on our intended light levels?

http://sensorgen.info/NikonD600.html
http://sensorgen.info/NikonD700.html
http://sensorgen.info/NikonDf.html

That said it seems like a great idea for Nikon to shell out another D5, name suggestion D5L (for "Low" ISO) featuring the buffer, the fresh Exspeed, the AF, the ruggetized body, all I want and need as a cradle for the 24MP genius.

The combination of the D5 and the D5L as a two body set will give the best of both worlds to any PJ or agency worker.
The so-called "PDR" of the D5 seems to oscillate around the downward trend curve at least until we reach 3200 ISO. Why is that? It seems a bit out of the ordinary, when you compare to other cameras.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: simsurace on March 29, 2016, 08:28:34
I think both DXO and dpreview overemphasize the importance of base ISO dynamic range.
But where is the supposedly better high ISO performance coming from if not from a lower noise floor? This lower noise floor should also imponge on the base ISO dynamic range. But I guess that the noise floor is relevant in a relative sense, i.e. relative to the full well capacity. So while the full-well capacity might have been reduced, the noise floor is lower in a relative sense. A high full-well capacity is relevant for photon counting statistics, that's important when light levels are high. If light levels are low, i.e. at high ISO, the other noise sources are more important.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: richardHaw on March 29, 2016, 08:56:26
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69U9RuJ5UnM

looks like somebody is not happy with the D5 :o :o :o
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: simsurace on March 29, 2016, 09:24:51
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69U9RuJ5UnM

looks like somebody is not happy with the D5 :o :o :o

He might just be the new Ken Rockwell.
No way of telling what he did with the camera to reach these conclusions.
It seems to me all of his videos (or most, I just saw a couple) are geared to shock the viewer with unconventional opinions, no matter what the factual basis is. I'd rather just toss a coin to make decisions.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: richardHaw on March 29, 2016, 10:03:49
He might just be the new Ken Rockwell.
No way of telling what he did with the camera to reach these conclusions.
It seems to me all of his videos (or most, I just saw a couple) are geared to shock the viewer with unconventional opinions, no matter what the factual basis is. I'd rather just toss a coin to make decisions.
i just take it for entertainment value :o :o :o
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: stenrasmussen on March 29, 2016, 10:14:00
The guy obviously never heard of the expression: "Better keep you mouth shut and let people think you're an idiot than to open it and remove any doubt".
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 29, 2016, 10:29:46
To answer Andreas's question:

"Happy with a camera" does not mean technical data of any aspect of that tool need to be state of the art.

The discussion is all about the character of certain response curves of the sensor.

That value does not necessarily affect the user experience in any way.

Given Bill Claff's testing results the best sensors are Iq250 of Phase One, Sony a7r2, Nikon D600/610/750

Claff does not measure the whole package.

I wish for the D600 sensor in a better package, because this sensor delivers to my kind of photography but
the AF system and the sturdiness of the package leaves a lot to wish for.

On the other hand I never used the 9 fps my D3 can do.

Conclusion? I settle for the next 8xx body that will likely feature the Sony a7r2 Sensor in a D5 electronics and AF system
for 3500 Euros a pop. Meaning I can get two of these for the price of one D5. That way I can replace the D3 and the D600
with two exactly same bodies. Plus I get better sturdyness and better HiISO performance and significantly more resolution
in the studio.

If I was a sports shooter or into wildlife I would immediately get the D5.

It is the package that delivers to our photographic needs or not. A single technical aspect is ofter negligable.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 29, 2016, 10:34:30
Concerning Youtube Stars: This is entertainment not science. If it upsets you it has created emotional value.

If it receives many clicks it is entertaining. It may be complete nonsense. Noone cares as long as it is funny.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Erik Lund on March 29, 2016, 10:44:34
One more:

DPReview: "Studio report: Nikon D5 has lowest base ISO dynamic range of any current FF Nikon DSLR (http://www.dpreview.com/news/9402203921/nikon-d5-shows-drop-in-dynamic-range)"

rgds, Andy
It clearly confirms your findings so far.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on March 29, 2016, 10:47:10
The  noise floor is variable depending on amplification that is applied, which depends on the ISO setting. Then there is the photon collection efficiency, which Nikon may have been able to improve (according to an interview by dpreview, Nikon improved the light gathering which I take to mean the QE). I would guess what has happened is increased QE and increased read noise at base ISO (due to faster ADC and perhaps a different amplifier design where high ISO is emphasized). Also the ability to do 4K recording may have required a different design which has more noise at low ISO.

As far as I know the 1D X was very successful for Canon whereas the D4/D4S were not so much for Nikon. The AF system may have been a major difference with the extended array of cross type points in the 1D X (now Nikon has that too). Nikon got some criticism from D3S users that the D4 was not much of an improvement at high ISO (few seemed to care that Nikon improved the low ISO DR in the D4 vs. D3S). So, Nikon may have decided to do what the market seemed to ask for:  optimize everything for high speed and high ISO. It is fitting that whatever they do, there are complaints online.  ;) Suddenly there are people who do care about the base ISO dynamic range in this type of a camera.  :o Well, perhaps they can now buy a D4s either used or discounted. For me I care more about the cross type AF points than a minor difference in low to mid ISO dynamic range but I do appreciate if the designers are able to make a fast camera also a good general purpose camera.

Personally, when they started increasing the base ISO dynamic range (with the D7000 and later the D800) I was sceptical of the usefulness and importance of it, but I quickly realized that the images genuinely looked better and could be edited in a more flexible way still retaining the quality. But I felt the D800 at ISO 6400 after correcting the white balance in low K lighting (candle light) produced a lot of noise in the blue channel and the images were IMO unusable (whereas the D800 at ISO 6400 in daylight was ok, since the blue channel didn't have to be amplified), so I felt there was a definite compromise.  The D750 is a bit better at high ISO than the D800 (or D810) with even underexposed ISO 6400 shots being ok after increasing the curve in raw converter, but the body is a  poor match for my hands (I find it very uncomfortable to use with gloves on, also it feels unbalanced with even mid sized lenses) so I look forward to what the D5 can do.


Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Erik Lund on March 29, 2016, 11:20:13
Nikon Nordic stated verbally that the IQ in the Df was better than the D4 since they didn't have to' bother' with the video circuits in the Df
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: stenrasmussen on March 29, 2016, 11:22:59
In the Facebook group "Nikkor Lenses" there is a japanese photographer (Ichiro Taniguchi‎) that has tested both the D5 and the 1DxII:
"admittedly, the AF speed of the newer VR model is faster on the D5, but all i can say is this, when i compare it to the 1DXii, it hits focus 9/10 times where as the Canon only has a 6/10 success rate in focus lock, not to mention that the D5 can focus in near pitch black and still lock"
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 29, 2016, 12:54:34
Tech comparison of Canon 1DX2 and Nikon D5 by reader cgarcia at fredmiranda:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1421475
Please note the non-zero vertical baseline in the graphs - increasing the visual appearance of the "gap" between the 2 rather seemingly similar performing cameras (for this test).

First impression by Brad Hill (Blog entry from March 28th, 2016)
http://www.naturalart.ca/voice/blog.html

rgds, Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on March 29, 2016, 12:57:59
At dpreview Rishi comments "I personally tend to think that if you care about DR, you care more about lower ISO DR (which, when higher, allows you to preserve highlights under even high ISO conditions by purposefully using lower ISOs). Whereas if you care more about high ISO image quality, you probably care mostly about the SNR 18% at high ISOs."

This is totally backwards as far as I'm concerned. High ISO is often used at night, in extremely low light which typically is artificial light, is often very contrasty (incandescent bulbs, candle light, spots etc.) and finally produces a colour cast that usually needs to be corrected and may be quite difficult to correct. High dynamic range at high ISO is very helpful when this correction is to be made without the introduction of unpleasant coloured noise.

Low ISO is often used 1) in the studio, where you can control lighting contrast so you only need a certain amount of DR, 2) when photographing landscapes and other static subjects in bright daylight, where you can benefit from the high DR  - to a point. But a single high DR image with contrast managed in post processing is still much worse in shadow image quality than a properly exposure blended image made of images captured at a range of exposures, if the scene is static enough to use multiple exposures. In my opinion the low ISO DR is moderately useful but relying on it is not the best way to manage high contrast scenes unless the scene is in motion in which case blending may introduce discrepancies that may require some additional work (and consideration). Many of the best landscape photographers in the world have been using Canon DSLRs for years, without so much of a problem. They like their TS-E wide angle lenses and are easily able to work around the DR  limitations of their sensors. In high ISO  action photography you cannot use exposure blending really, and because the signal to noise characteristics in low light high ISO work are not so good to begin with, all the improvement that can be achieved in high ISO including dynamic range is welcome.

The D5 isn't the camera that would be chosen for landscape. It is expensive, relatively low resolution and mainly designed for high speed. Thus making a sensationalistic headline to an article regarding the D5's low ISO DR is just bad journalism, it's what one would expect from an evening tabloid.   :( Making a headline based on something else would have been more appropriate.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: bjornthun on March 29, 2016, 13:21:23
At dpreview Rishi comments "I personally tend to think that if you care about DR, you care more about lower ISO DR (which, when higher, allows you to preserve highlights under even high ISO conditions by purposefully using lower ISOs). Whereas if you care more about high ISO image quality, you probably care mostly about the SNR 18% at high ISOs."

This is totally backwards as far as I'm concerned. High ISO is often used at night, in extremely low light which typically is artificial light, is often very contrasty (incandescent bulbs, candle light, spots etc.) and finally produces a colour cast that usually needs to be corrected and may be quite difficult to correct. High dynamic range at high ISO is very helpful when this correction is to be made without the introduction of unpleasant coloured noise.

Low ISO is often used 1) in the studio, where you can control lighting contrast so you only need a certain amount of DR, 2) when photographing landscapes and other static subjects in bright daylight, where you can benefit from the high DR  - to a point. But a single high DR image with contrast managed in post processing is still much worse in shadow image quality than a properly exposure blended image made of images captured at a range of exposures, if the scene is static enough to use multiple exposures. In my opinion the low ISO DR is moderately useful but relying on it is not the best way to manage high contrast scenes unless the scene is in motion in which case blending may introduce discrepancies that may require some additional work (and consideration). Many of the best landscape photographers in the world have been using Canon DSLRs for years, without so much of a problem. They like their TS-E wide angle lenses and are easily able to work around the DR  limitations of their sensors. In high ISO  action photography you cannot use exposure blending really, and because the signal to noise characteristics in low light high ISO work are not so good to begin with, all the improvement that can be achieved in high ISO including dynamic range is welcome.

The D5 isn't the camera that would be chosen for landscape. It is expensive, relatively low resolution and mainly designed for high speed. Thus making a sensationalistic headline to an article regarding the D5's low ISO DR is just bad journalism, it's what one would expect from an evening tabloid.   :( Making a headline based on something else would have been more appropriate.
One of those workarounds is to shoot Canon TS-E lenses on Sony A7R II with the Metabones electronic Canon to Sony E mount adapter, due to the higher DR of the Sony sensor.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 29, 2016, 13:38:49
Thank you Ilkka.

The study of sensor characteristics might be purely academic. Yet there are people who enjoy it anyway.
That does not necessarily be tabloid style. Misinterpretation of facts can always be in the eye of the beholder too.
Finding the facts and discussing them does no harm per se.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on March 29, 2016, 15:50:03
I couldn't agree more than with Ilkka's comments: I'm essentially an action photographer, often taking pictures from small planes where I have often to put, into one single image, the cockpit and the landscape, something impossible to match with a single picture with regard to DR; HDR with high speed bracketing is the solution I'm using. On the other side, I'm also making landscape photos where I'm applying the same technique if I'do not have a tripod.  So, lower DR for the D5 is not of a major concern to me; even if it proved to be true. By the way, I still haven't received my long time expected (and paid) D5, but I'm confident that I made the good choice.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: richardHaw on March 29, 2016, 18:57:55
People forget about poor events photographers like me :'(

Where ISO100-3200 is the most important for us :o  :o :o

Its gonna suck if that is the case, Nikon is a "expose to the left" brand as far as im concerned, unlike canon and fuji where the reverse is true. This might cost a shot or two.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on March 29, 2016, 19:47:18
So at events, use a D810 for the ISO 100-1000 stuff and D5 for 3200-12800.

In any case an event photog would need backup camera bodies (1 minimum, 2 preferred) so it is ok if the different bodies have slightly different optimal use scenarios. It can be used to advantage.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 29, 2016, 20:08:54
Ole J. Liodden updated his earlier D5 report - he was one of the Betatesters of the D5.
http://oleliodden.com/photo-gear/field-reviews/beta-test-report-nikon-d5/

quote:
UPDATE 27.03 2016: Today I installed the new Lightroom and Camera RAW software supporting the Nikon D5 camera and I could finally view the NEF-files from the beta testing September-November 2015, and I’m shocked. The image quality at ISO 32 000 is not as stated below only “promising” but very, very good. The sharpness and low noise at ISO 25 000+ is better than I could see in the jpg-files. The test report below was written in mid January when I only could view the JPG-files. All exposures were done in NEF + jpg format.

rgds,
Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 29, 2016, 22:38:17
The D5 introduces a new category of lens compatibility - seemingly a long list of 1st generation VR lenses are impacted.

Please find below the excerpts of both manuals: D4/D4s (left) and D5 (right). The category on "Incompatible Accessories and non-CPU lenses" is identical.
Many of these lenses aren't that old, so people might be concious about this compatibility issue if they use these lenses.

Don't know how to read the sentence in the section "VR lenses": "We recommend turning vibration reduction off, when using other VR lenses"
Read literally, no VR lens should work with the D5. Gee, then my D5 seems to be faulty - it worked with VR lenses .... :)

Andy


Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andrea B. on March 29, 2016, 22:44:45
.....marred by fog?

What in the world does that mean anyway? VR causes some light leak?
This is very strange indeed.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 29, 2016, 22:50:33
Did a quick check, to check for noise patterns with long time exposure at decent ISO levels - just to see and understand the pattern.

I did a 30 second exposure at room temperature, no lens on the camera, cap instead, viewfinder closed where possible, dark room.
ISO set to 12.800. 3 cameras: D5, D4, D750

Basically all 3 camera have very low noise levels, potentially not seriously impacting in these condition image quality. Basically 3x dark frames with very low noise levels.
 
Just for visualization: Raised exposure compensation by + 3 EV with NX-D, NR=off, saved file to 1200x800, high quality
If someone is interested in downloading the NEFs <click here (https://onedrive.live.com/?id=C59FEF9F04ED4A3A%211764&cid=C59FEF9F04ED4A3A)>

Interesting to see the patterns. My interpretation:
1) The D4 has "balanced" red and blue chroma noise, amp glow on the left side of the recorded frame. Some horizontal banding.
2) The D5 has a rather red dominated chroma noise, blue noise is lower. The amp glow is on the right side of the frame
3) The D750 has the lowest noise level at this setting. Amp glow is on the bottom of the frame. Some horizontal banding.
(I did longer exposures as well, where the amp glow was much "better" visible)

rgds, Andy

1) D4, 2) D5, 3) D750
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on March 29, 2016, 22:54:16

Electromagnetic interference between the VR system and the sensor?
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Roland Vink on March 29, 2016, 22:56:30
The list of incompatible non-CPU lenses is pretty standard (although the serial numbers given are not entirely accurate)

The VR lenses are not recommended for "long exposures", where VR is of no use anyway ...
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 29, 2016, 22:58:21
The VR caveat raised by Nikon obviously only applies to long exposure or high ISO settings.

As so many of the Nikon's "Do NOT" warnings, probably is just that, a statement to the effect you are on your own and the manufacturer is not liable for any collateral damage.

The list of lenses/items not to  be used has been violated (by myself) for D2-,D3-, and D4-series models so no reason to believe the same tricks cannot be put in effect for the D5.

I do know, by the way, that the 2.1 cm f/4 Nikkor must never be attempted to mount on any Nikon except Nikon F, F2, and late series Nikkormats. Thus for this lens one is foolish not to heed the warning. Most others can be convinced to work even on a modern Nikon.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: richardHaw on March 30, 2016, 04:46:36
So at events, use a D810 for the ISO 100-1000 stuff and D5 for 3200-12800.
sold the D800 and never looked back, thank goodness :o :o :o

ill just use the D4 instead.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: charlie on March 30, 2016, 04:56:28
.....marred by fog?

What in the world does that mean anyway? VR causes some light leak?
This is very strange indeed.

Electromagnetic interference between the VR system and the sensor?

Something like that. Not sure what exactly.

Here is a 151 second exposure straight out of the camera with the 70-200mm VRI lens mounted on the D700 and the lens cap on. iso was set to 6400, f/2.8, and VR turned on, I tried another exposure with the same settings only turned VR off and the red streak showed up in that frame as well. Many years ago I noticed the red streak in a long exposure I shot. I recall figuring out a way to get around it happening, I thought it was turning VR off but that doesn't appear to be changing anything at the moment. I think I posted about it on the old site but I can't seem to search old posts there.

Now that cameras have incredibly sensitive iso settings I could see this "leak" showing up not only in long exposures, but also at more extreme iso settings, hence the warning from Nikon I would suspect.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on March 30, 2016, 18:05:05
Just received my D5; batteries charged, set-up completed; ready to go !!!!
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 30, 2016, 20:41:21
Jim Kasson (http://blog.kasson.com/?page_id=2285) got its hands on a D5 yesterday and did some technical analysis:

Nikon D5 - Read noise vs. ISO setting (http://blog.kasson.com/?p=14157)
Nikon D5 — dark field histograms at low ISO settings (http://blog.kasson.com/?p=14171)
Nikon D5 — dark field histograms at high ISO settings (http://blog.kasson.com/?p=14216)
Nikon D5 — dark-field noise vs. shutter speed (http://blog.kasson.com/?p=14221)
Nikon D5 — self heating (http://blog.kasson.com/?p=14229)
Update 2016.03.31:
Nikon D5 — first pass modeling (http://blog.kasson.com/?p=14235) (incl FWC numbers)
Nikon D5 — first pass overall modeling (http://blog.kasson.com/?p=14244)

Probably more posts to come, as he announced that he will share his D5 findings in the next 2 weeks.
Seems like the D5 sensor architecture provides ample opportunity for the engineering community to figure out the new approaches Nikon has taken with this camera.

BTW, according to him:
"There appears to be digital scaling at all ISOs. That's not unusual for a Nikon. What is unusual is that there appears to be digital scaling for all ISOs in all four raw planes."
"EDR’s of around 11 are not terribly impressive these days. However, EDRs that stay above ten until ISO 6400 are pretty nice." (EDR = Engineering Dynamic Range)
"It looks like this camera holds some interesting secrets."

Seems like the time has arrived, that a significant chunk of digital signal processing has moved before the "RAW file" step in the image pipeline of the camera. Was only a matter of time.

Haven't found anybody doing some analysis about the evolution of the noise pattern design of single digit Nikon cameras. It looks like with every new generation of faster CPU processing and more advanced algorithms in the camera (Nikon marketing calls it Expeed), the noise pattern moves to the high frequency domain. Is probably a better "source material" to balance NR and detail preservation more effectively. tbc.

Jim Kasson's heat analysis shows that the D5 seems to be quite resilient in this regard. ("This looks exceptionally good to me. If the D5 has a self-heating problem, it must take a different protocol to excite it.")
Marianne Oelund shared in this post (http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57525237) that the inconsistency she had with the D3s noise data vs. the D5 seems to be based on a high dependency of ambient temperature the D3s has.

rgds,
Andy

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 30, 2016, 21:52:25
Nikon NPS released the D5 Technical Tips (TIPS)
http://nps.nikonimaging.com/technical_solutions/d5_tips/

Content

Useful Features
Custom Controls
Custom Control Assignments
Quick Menu Access
Custom folder
Taking Pictures
White Balance Tips and Tricks
AE with Constant Shutter Speed and Aperture
Preserving Natural Contrast
Multiple Exposure: Overlay Mode
Burst Photography: Keeping Exposure Consistent
Muffling the Shutter
Vibration Reduction: Sport Mode
Playback
Finding Pictures Quickly
Upload
Quick Network Connection
Checking Upload Status
Adding Text to Pictures
Accessories
Synchronized Release
Appendix
The D5 Versus the D4S: Controls and Displays


Sports AF Edition
Sports AF: Autofocus Basics
AF-Area Mode
Focus Points
Sports AF: Custom Settings
Sports AF: Custom Control Assignments
Auto AF Fine-Tuning 
Recommended AF Settings by Event
This section offers some advice on adjusting autofocus-related settings for different sporting events.
Overview: Settings by Event
Details: Settings by Event


Movie Edition
Movie-Related Camera Controls
Recording Movies
Before Recording
More on Movies
Time-Lapse Movies
Things to Note
Movie Playback Tips and Tricks
D5 Movie Specifications

D5 Things You Should Know
 ( a few videos of Nikon representatives)

rgds,
Andy

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on March 31, 2016, 01:05:01
Thom Hogan has seemingly started a D5/D500 blog style logbook:
http://www.dslrbodies.com/cameras/the-d5d500-blog/
If interested, you might check back in the future for more posts about his D5 experience

rgds, Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on April 01, 2016, 00:03:20
Just published:
Dpreview's "real world" High ISO images (http://"http://www.dpreview.com/samples/2934449035/nikon-d5-real-world-low-light-high-iso-samples?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=mainmenu&utm_medium=text&ref=mainmenu")
You might enjoy some of these.

rgds, Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Erik Lund on April 01, 2016, 00:09:07
Hi Andy, you have an extra http in front that is not working, here is the link:
http://www.dpreview.com/samples/2934449035/nikon-d5-real-world-low-light-high-iso-samples?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=mainmenu&utm_medium=text&ref=mainmenu%22 (http://www.dpreview.com/samples/2934449035/nikon-d5-real-world-low-light-high-iso-samples?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=mainmenu&utm_medium=text&ref=mainmenu%22)
Thanks ;)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on April 01, 2016, 00:11:22
Hi Andy, you have an extra http in front that is not working, here is the link:
http://www.dpreview.com/samples/2934449035/nikon-d5-real-world-low-light-high-iso-samples?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=mainmenu&utm_medium=text&ref=mainmenu%22 (http://www.dpreview.com/samples/2934449035/nikon-d5-real-world-low-light-high-iso-samples?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=mainmenu&utm_medium=text&ref=mainmenu%22)
Thanks ;)
Sorry & thanks Erik
(fixed my link)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on April 06, 2016, 00:53:00
Didn't have time the last days for posting new stuff. Here is a quick one:

Got my two 2933X 128GB Lexar XQD cards last friday. (The D5 can write between 3000 and 7000 photos per battery charge, which translates to between 80 and 190 GB data per charge) - in case you don't want to travel with a card reader/PC and battery charger.

The 128 GB cards are fast, really fast. Did I say fast?

To check the write speed, I set the camera to 12 frames/s. Saving to 14bit lossless NEF and large/fine JPEG simultaneously. Let it run at CH as long as it start to "stutter".

With this file setting, the camera bursts for 9 seconds to write 110 files (actually 220 files). Immediately after this burst, there was no green write lamp lighting up on the card door. Somehow irritated, I put the card in the PC and here we go: 220 files, 3 GB are there. Written in 9 seconds.
The card was able to write to the card as fast as the camera could produce data at 12 frames /sec. As I still had some doubts, I did it a second time. Again. 110 images in 9 second. This time, the light was 1 second on after I released the shutter. Kind of "slow" this time ;)

With the G-series 32GB Sony card, which came with the D5, write speed is still an impressive 285 MB/sec (the camera got 80 images until it "stuttered"). Same here. No write light after the burst.

Wow. This is very impressive.

I've never seen any camera being able to write between 285-330 MB/sec on its storage card. Some SSDs in notebooks are slower than this write rate.

Might be another area where the D500 might share some components with the D5. W'll see soon.

rgds,
Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on April 06, 2016, 01:02:04
I tested this at the press launch, but then with jpgs and it was impossible to make the camera halt even at the highest firing rate. It just went on and on seemingly without any end. Adds a new dimension to the hackneyed phrase 'machine-gunning photography'.

The only thing that could slow down writing would be the file system tables taking time to be updated when there have been a lot of writing and deleting file entries. The occasional deep formatting of the card should reset it on track.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on April 06, 2016, 01:32:38
wrt to "machine-gunning photography"
Just imagine that someone takes his D5 and within 10 hrs of the first working day reaches the 400k limit of the certified shutter actuations .....
The rest of the working year, he has to work through a pile of about 12 TB of pictures ..... (a year, if he needs less than 20 sec per photo of postprocessing time)
 ;)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Jørgen Ramskov on April 06, 2016, 08:10:48
Very impressive speed! My D750 is quite slow in comparison, it can't even take advantage of the fastest sd cards.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on April 06, 2016, 08:11:38
Andy: I hear wonders about the low light AF performance. Can you confirm?
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Erik Lund on April 06, 2016, 10:47:17
Truly read write performance indeed!

I'm sure the low light AF performance is amazing why would it not be ;) Every singe new incarnation of these D have been better and better in this regard  8)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on April 16, 2016, 14:58:35
For those who rather prefer watching video reviews.
The water test at 7 mins into the video is not reommended to replicate ... (This goes beyond my understanding of sturdiness and ruggedness a camera is build for)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uHWVBLuaLg&feature=youtu.be

rgds, Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Herbie49 on April 18, 2016, 11:36:28
Interesting comparison between D5 and D810, but also with Canon and Sony cameras.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCwk-Obu0dA
Conclusion: The D810 is still a superb camera which for most photographers will be the better choice.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on April 18, 2016, 11:55:51
Conclusion: The D810 is still a superb camera which for most photographers will be the better choice.

Well the d810 is due an update soon, with the D5's AF system (or some adoptation of it). There is no point in not making the high res model have the best AF; the linear only points outside of the center columns is (and always was) very limiting and an absurd design decision IMO, basically most if not all portrait orientation full body shots suffer from not having reliable AF on the face, this affects portrait shooting, concerts, sports etc. I think the broad coverage with cross type AF sensor points in the 1D X / 5D III allowed Canon to obtain a stronghold even with lesser image quality sensors that they had at the time compared to Nikon. In a high resolution camera, reliable AF is paramount to actually make something out of the increased resolution (unless it is used for landscape etc. of course)

 I would expect an announcement of the D810's successor later this year.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Tersn on April 21, 2016, 10:55:32
I have heard that the D5 has more low ISO noise than the D4s (and D810). Does anyone here have any experience with that? Thankful for any opinions. I have got a D5 on hold till tomorrow and have problems making up my mind. :-\
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on April 21, 2016, 11:01:39
Terje: The D5 is for fast action and high ISO. Sports & Wildlife with big glass. It is not worse in low ISO than a D3s. Just look at the beginning of this thread where all these questions are discussed long and broad
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Tersn on April 21, 2016, 11:30:03
Terje: The D5 is for fast action and high ISO. Sports & Wildlife with big glass. It is not worse in low ISO than a D3s. Just look at the beginning of this thread where all these questions are discussed long and broad

 Frank: Of course, I know all about that. I am mainly interested in real life experience with the camera, not just a few hours of trying it out. The D5 has been available for some time now so some people have had a chance to test it relatively thoroughly.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Michael Anderson on April 21, 2016, 12:17:48
I faced the same predicament as you and cancelled the order. Hoping for a D5X.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on April 21, 2016, 12:24:32
My current verdict from what I hear from all my friends with a D5 is that the "theoretical trouble at low ISO" is more of an annoyance in theory than it is in practical work.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Tersn on April 21, 2016, 14:26:33
Michael:
Interesting that someone else has been thinking about the low iso performance too.

Frank.
I hope so and have been surfing around and found some intersting view points; should be able to make a qualified decision by tomorrow  :)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on April 21, 2016, 15:29:08
I am mainly interested in real life experience with the camera, not just a few hours of trying it out.

Brad Hill comments on his experiences with the D5 quite extensively in his blog.

Edit: If the metering is more accurate (as he suggests) then the need to do corrections in post (requiring often discussed DR) should be less frequent.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on April 21, 2016, 15:45:45
My current verdict from what I hear from all my friends with a D5 is that the "theoretical trouble at low ISO" is more of an annoyance in theory than it is in practical work.

Hereby, an interactive comparaison chart http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D4S,Nikon%20D5,Nikon%20D810

Low ISO performance is lower than the D4s, D810, or D610.  It is still higher / comparable to all the pro bodies of Canon.  Nothing dramatical. still well above all current view supports (screen, paper etc).  And an absolute performer above ISO 6400, which was, until very recent, forbidden territory for professional applications 
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Tersn on April 21, 2016, 18:24:44
MFloyd and Ilkka N. :

Thanks for your reminders. I have been reading a lot of tests and comments today on the D5 and am slowly starting to make up my mind.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: JohnBrew on April 24, 2016, 14:34:20
Very late to this thread, but I must congratulate Andy on a job well done and very impressed with the D5 sensor. Any chance of an updated Df w/D5 sensor?
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Jan Anne on April 25, 2016, 20:18:48
Not sure if this link was mentioned already but here's memory speeds test with the D5 and some XQD cards:
http://www.cameramemoryspeed.com/nikon-d5/fastest-xqd-cards/
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on April 29, 2016, 06:04:22
Some high dynamic range pictures in the Swiss Alps.  The blamed low ISO, low dynamic range doesn't seem to be much noticeable:

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1525/26675374226_bca267da58_k.jpg)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1544/26609068542_c4d1fd7f6b_k.jpg)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1663/26433218770_d966816f56_k.jpg)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on April 29, 2016, 10:13:13
MFloyd. As was said before. The practical relevance of the number games might only be visible in special circumstances.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on April 29, 2016, 11:22:50
Hello Frank. Indeed. The above to illustrate that nobody should worry.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Jakov Minić on April 29, 2016, 11:40:22
These are beautiful image MFloyd.
The orange sunset colors in the trees are special.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on May 01, 2016, 09:27:35
Thank you, Jakov. Yes, the sunset picture is particular, as only a very small part of the granite wall is reached by the sun.  The purpose of these pictures were more technical (testing the low ISO dynamic range) but, finally they did come out quite well. 😊
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Tersn on May 01, 2016, 23:06:55
Convincing landscape shots MFloyd.
Here is a "High ISO" shot, although iso 16000 might not be very high on the D5. Shot in about the same poor light as the similar D500 shot in another thread ("D500 at iso 46500"). Sigma 50mm/1.4 Art @ f/1.4, 1/60 sec.

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1619/26690588041_c0d91d4321_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GEyeWr)D5 at iso 16000 (https://flic.kr/p/GEyeWr) by tersn, on Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tsnd09/)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on May 24, 2016, 19:50:22
DXOmark is out with their D5 numbers.
http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Nikon-D5-sensor-review-A-worthy-successor

rgds, Andreas
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on May 24, 2016, 20:07:48
DXOmark is out with their D5 numbers.
http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Nikon-D5-sensor-review-A-worthy-successor

Thanks! It doesn't look bad at all; slightly improved DR at high ISO whereas at low ISO there is higher color sensitivity but lower DR than D4s. The differences seem to be fairly small.

I think a lot of people online got a pea in their nose because of early reports of lower DR at base ISO but it seems  that the D5 just strikes a different balance of sensor performance than its predecessors. To me 21MP makes it more general purpose than 12MP or 16MP were.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on May 25, 2016, 16:38:40
The "sports" low ISO measurements from DXO at ISO 2'400, may be accurate according their protocol, are completely missing the "reality".
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on May 30, 2016, 12:00:57
Color chart D5 @ ISO 102'400:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7525/27313801866_34c25bae70_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on May 30, 2016, 17:21:06
MFloyd: color consistency over a huge range of ISO and Light Sources seems to be a big strength of the 5th generation cameras.

For a 100k-ISO FX shot your result is impressive. D500 needs to stop at 20k, which is still very good for a DX.

Looking forward to the D850/D900 that should be able to play in the same garden as the D5 not in the FPS speed but in the ISO speed
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on May 30, 2016, 19:01:33
Thank you Frank. Usually I don't shoot color charts, except for calibrating. I have to admit that I was puzzled about the usual "new camera - D5 - " bashing, and wanted to make it out for myself. 😊

If somebody is interested, I have also some high ISO real life pictures.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on May 30, 2016, 20:47:25
Noone ever doubted that the D5 is the best above ISO3200 (together with and insanely expensive Phase One and the alpha7R2)

Some have measured that the D5 cannot beat its predesessor in the field below ISO800.

As the D4s was already great in that domain ... who really cares?
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 09, 2016, 16:40:49
Gosh. I could have had her tomorrow, yet I was in my lunch break when NPS called to send me a loaner. I am really interested after the D500 is such a huge success. Esp. I am interested if I can see a difference between the D600 at base ISO and the D5 at base ISO in the studio and outside. I still guess the difference is purely academic, because the photon budget of the D5 should exceed that of the D600.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on June 09, 2016, 17:55:10
I have a D610 and did some high ISO comparisons with the D5: in terms of noise the D610 holds well his grounds.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: longzoom on June 09, 2016, 18:14:14
I have a D610 and did some high ISO comparisons with the D5: in terms of noise the D610 holds well his grounds.
               Stunning images of yours above,  MFloyd!   I know, for sure, how hard is to get such the beauty!  Well done!   LZ
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on June 09, 2016, 18:55:33
Thank you so much. Hereunder two color charts at ISO 25'600.  There is little difference:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7647/27435583746_e9ef708af8_b.jpg)
D610 @ ISO 25'600 f/5.6 1/640

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7117/26955754563_bdcd6be4d6_b.jpg)
D5 @ ISO 25'600 f/5.6 1/1250

Surprisingly, there is one stop difference between the D610 and the D5 combined with some density difference. I have to bring the analysis somewhat further.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on June 20, 2016, 08:42:34
According NikonRumors new firmware would become available this or next week http://nikonrumors.com/2016/06/19/nikon-d5-firmware-update-to-be-released-soon.aspx/#more-105314
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on June 20, 2016, 21:12:03
Moved the post to http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?action=post;topic=3087.90;last_msg=57763 where it will be more appropriate, as most of my pictures will be taken with the D5 anyway, and as I cannot talk anymore about "first impressions"  ;)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: David H. Hartman on June 22, 2016, 05:43:35
D4s v. D5 v. D800 Dynamic Range v. ISO from DXOMark data...

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D4S,Nikon%20D5,Nikon%20D800

From this it would appear that the D5 indeed has less dynamic range in the low ISO(s) but it's optimized for high ISO. What do you folks think? A video I viewed recently said and showed more detail in high ISO photos. I might have found the link here at NikonGear.net.

Any comments on the viewfinder? How is manual focus on the matte focus screen. I have not found the D800 and D300s to be as good (as easy) as my D2H was.

Dave

I added the D800 to the link above. I might have added the D810 but the D800 is a little better at the low end and the color of the graph line is cool stands out better.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on June 23, 2016, 12:44:42
From this it would appear that the D5 indeed has less dynamic range in the low ISO(s) but it's optimized for high ISO.

Right, the fast cameras typically are not the best in low ISO dynamic range. As far as I know, this is partly because they need to read the sensor very quickly to achieve their frame rates, and partly because the pixel count is smaller so the noise that comes from the reading of the sensor and digitization of the signal contributes to a larger fraction of the whole image than in slower, high resolution cameras. The difference between D4(s) and D5 doesn't seem to be so great, one is a bit better in one area and the other in another. I guess what Nikon did was to make the D5 a more specialized tool than its predecessor was; on the other hand the pixel count has increased (slightly) so that increases usability for some applications. I would just use the D810 for low to medium ISO work and the D5 for medium to high ISO and/or fast action. The D5 has the newer AF system advantage, excellent build quality and ergonomics, high speed etc. whereas the D810 has the better image quality (except at very high ISO) and is more compact and lightweight (without vertical grip).

As for the choice between D4s and D5, personally I think in a camera that is intended for action, the better AF system is more important than small differences in image quality. However, there is also the matter of cost - the D4s and D4 should be available on the second hand market for less money than the D5. The biggest difference in the D5 AF system for me is that it has cross type sensors further away from the center along the long axis of the frame, this is a big deal for vertical photographs of approaching people (vertical portraits as well, but if they are approaching the new AF system really helps catch onto low contrast features on the faces). Unfortunately the AF array does not seem to have expanded as much along the short axis of the frame.

I guess if you shoot action in very bright, high contrast light a lot, then the D4 or D4s ought to be considered alongside the D5. But for contrasty daylight I would prefer the D810 and just accept the slower frame rate - 5fps with a fairly spacious buffer works for me, and it can do 6fps in 1.2x crop mode. D810 at ISO 64 is just delicious.

Quote
Any comments on the viewfinder? How is manual focus on the matte focus screen. I have not found the D800 and D300s to be as good (as easy) as my D2H was.

You could try the Df and D810; both have rather nice viewfinders (I found the improvement from D800 to D810 noticeable in the crispiness of the viewfinder image). I haven't used the D5 enough to comment on that but it may be it is easier to see the corners of the viewfinder with glasses on than with the D810. I am not sure about manual focusability with the D5 but will at some point try. I use quite a few manual focus lenses for tripod based work but use live view to finalize the focusing. For tilt/shift lenses I focus first optically and adjust the tilt simultaneously while rotating the focusing ring. Then I finalize the focus using the LV image zoomed in. You can get some viewfinder ocular accessories for the D5 (it has a removeable eyepiece and the manual lists some options that can be attached). I haven't tried those yet.

I can try to provide feedback on the D5 viewfinder for manual focusing vs. the D810 once I have more time with the camera.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 23, 2016, 13:35:20
I get HER tomorrow. Keep HER till Tuesday.

Will run comparison to D500. Exciting!
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on June 23, 2016, 13:57:25
D5 FW 1.1 just announced gives still image photography the flicker reduction function. This I look forward to very much as in flickering light indoors the colors and brightness can vary from image to image and this is very annoying and time consuming to correct in post. I was very excited when Canon announced the 7D II with flicker reduction and now both the D500 and D5 support it, apparently.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on June 23, 2016, 15:12:16
Hereunder details of 1.10 firmware update:

I had a quick try after install, and everything seems to work

• The camera can now record movies up to 29 minutes and 59 seconds long. Movies are recorded across up to 8 files, each up to 4 GB size, which can be joined together using the ViewNX-Movie Editor option in ViewNX-i version 1.2.0 or later. *
• An Electronic VR option has been added to the MOVIE SHOOTING MENU. Note that electronic vibration reduction is not available at frame sizes of 3840×2160 or 1920×1080 crop, and that the angle of view is slightly reduced when electronic vibration reduction is in effect. *
• A Flicker reduction option has been added to the PHOTO SHOOTING MENU. *
• Dynamic-area AF (9 points) has been added to the AF-area mode options available during viewfinder photography. *
• The chief changes to viewfinder photography autofocus are:
- Improved camera response when the button assigned Auto-area AF using Custom Setting f1 (Custom control assignment) > AF-area mode or AF-area mode + AF-ON is pressed to temporarily select auto-area AF.
- Improved tracking when Wide is selected for Custom Setting a5 (3D-tracking watch area) and 3D-tracking is selected for AF-area mode.
• The following changes have been made to the shooting display in the web browser when Silent photography is selected in HTTP server mode:
- An “SL” (“silent”) icon has been added to the release mode button.
- The “number of shots remaining” display for continuous release modes now shows the time remaining.
- Exposure compensation can now be adjusted by up to ±3.
• The file name (extension “.NDF”) is now displayed in HTTP server mode when Image Dust Off data are displayed in a web browser either full frame or in the image viewer.
• The web browser displays for computers, iPads, and Android OS now identify white balance presets 1 through 6 by number when preset manual white balance is selected in HTTP server mode.
• If movie recording is started while the camera is focusing in movie live view, the camera will now stop focusing before beginning recording.
• Fixed the following issues:
- The camera would sometimes record the date of recording incorrectly during leap years and the like.
- The Save/load settings option in the SETUP MENU would only load up to 10 of the up to 20 items that could be stored in “My Menu”.
- The camera would display the encryption key for Direct (access point) connections when searching for wireless networks using Search for wireless network with Direct (access point) selected in the SETUP MENU > Network connection wizard.
- The device would sometimes be unable to connect to the D5 when Connect and exit wizard was chosen with Direct (access point) selected in the SETUP MENU > Network connection wizard.
- The OS X edition of the Wireless Transmitter Utility would not function as expected when used to edit or add profiles for a camera connected via USB if Password protection was enabled for wireless or Ethernet LANs in the Network > Network settings menu.
- The camera would sometimes not correctly display pictures created using the Trim option in the RETOUCH MENU.
- If playback zoom was activated while the memory card access lamp was lit, the picture would sometimes not display correctly or the camera would zoom in on a point other than the active focus point if:
• RAW Slot 1 - JPEG Slot 2 was selected for Role played by card in Slot 2 in the PHOTO SHOOTING MENU,
• On was selected for Image review in the PLAYBACK MENU,
• Memory cards were inserted in Slots both 1 and 2, and
• The NEF (RAW) and JPEG images were different sizes
* Details can be found in an updated edition of the camera manual.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 25, 2016, 19:18:46
I took a lot of shots whith the D5 that arrived yesterday morning

1) ISO 100 full 21 MP ... http://fotokontext.de/ZENTRALKRAFT/edDSC_5013.jpg
2) ISO 12.800, silent mode. I took pictures up to 81k. Very interesting results, more later ... http://fotokontext.de/ZENTRALKRAFT/ed_DSC_6590.JPG
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 25, 2016, 19:31:39
Common features with the D500:

The JPEG Conversions in camera suck, esp at higher ISO settings. One needs to shut off the "Noise Reduction" or one gets ugly artefacts. In "silent mode" which is a "JPEG small only" or "video grab" mode it seems a good idea to cover the artifacts with 5% gaussian noise as I did in the second shot above.

Task: Play with the in camera settings to see which suit a usable JPEG OOC best. Any suggestions, Andy?

Features missing or I did not find:

No quiet continuos mode (Qc) but a strange mode called "silent mode" with motion JPEG Frames of 2784×1856 qpixels written to the card at insane speed. I'd rather see less speed and more Quality/Resolution. Feedback is not there really.

Comment: Quiet mode means anticipation of  situations, because you get a shutter delay of roughly 1/2 second on older cams, much less on D5 and D500. BUT: You get a Quiet mode continouus on the D500, which is not as silent as the Quet single mode, but OKish.

What I really do not like

Very loud and ugly shutter noise. CH12 sounds like a wasp cross bred with a small Italian motor cycle some youth may utilize to impress girls
The button layout on the back feels better with the D500 for my hands
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on June 25, 2016, 19:44:12
"Features missing or I did not find:

"No quiet continuos mode (Qc) but a strange mode called "silent mode" with motion JPEG Frames of 2784×1856 qpixels written to the card at insane speed. I'd rather see less speed and more Quality/Resolution. Feedback is not there really.

Comment: Quiet mode means anticipation of  situations, because you get a shutter delay of roughly 1/2 second on older cams, much less on D5 and D500. BUT: You get a Quiet mode continouus on the D500, which is not as silent as the Quet single mode, but OKish."

You have a silent mode Q on the lefthand turret with a choice of single or 3 frames / s


"What I really do not like

Very loud and ugly shutter noise. CH12 sounds like a wasp cross bred with a small Italian motor cycle some youth may utilize to impress gilrs"

?? Mine has a very matte sound and is not loud at all.  Absolutely nothing to do with wasps or Italian Vespas 
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 25, 2016, 20:37:56
"No quiet continuos mode (Qc) but a strange mode called "silent mode" with motion JPEG Frames of 2784×1856 qpixels written to the card at insane speed. I'd rather see less speed and more Quality/Resolution. Feedback is not there really.
Comment: Quiet mode means anticipation of  situations, because you get a shutter delay of roughly 1/2 second on older cams, much less on D5 and D500. BUT: You get a Quiet mode continouus on the D500, which is not as silent as the Quet single mode, but OKish."
You have a silent mode Q on the lefthand turret with a choice of single or 3 frames / s


OK, you do not have the Qc on the upper dial but you got it parametrized with another button on the lower paret of the body, where you can switch from "S" to "C3".

Sorry, my bad. I was used the "Qc" on the upper dial of the D500.

Concerning the sound I will fire up my zoom audio h1 recorder now and everybody may judge for themselves.

Here we are. Completely unscientific but you can hear the difference for sure: http://fotokontext.de/ZENTRALKRAFT/d500_vs_d5_sound.MP3
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on June 25, 2016, 23:19:15
The D5 has 20% faster frame rate, and the mirror and shutter are larger as well than those in the D500. A higher pitch, louder sound is the result. A softer sound in FX can be achieved if a slower frame rate is acceptable (the D810). I don't find the sound from the D5 a distraction. It's a fast camera so it makes a sharp sound. One of the advantages of a fast moving mirror is that the AF sensor dead time is shorter between the frames. The D5 AF seems very reliable.

The automatic white balance seems very consistent and a considerable improvement in a camera that is often used in varying and difficult lighting conditions.  The exposure meter seems also very consistent. This makes it easier to get a good result with minimal post-processing so it saves time and for me puts more focus on the subject and content of the image, not burdened down by a considerable post-processing workload. The images aren't as detailed as those from the D810 but on the other hand such detail is usually not required in many applications where the final outcome is either displayed on screen or printed small. Of course the D810 has many benefits but processing a thousand images from an event shot with D810 is not my idea of fun. I want to spend much less time by the computer.

If the sound is a problem for your application, there are quieter cameras with excellent high ISO image quality but probably none that can focus as well as the D5 in dim light, especially if the subjects move. I guess it is a bit of a paradox. I guess Nikon thinks more about sports photographers than those who photograph classical music etc. ;)
For that kind of application I think the D810 and fast primes works well even though its high ISO is not as good as a few other Nikons, using an f/1.4 or f/2 lens usually solves the problem. And the high resolution of the camera gives some compositional freedom when using primes. The details of costumes are certainly resolved in fine detail. I guess what Nikon could add to its successor is the improvements in auto white balance and exposure accuracy, flicker synchronization, and the Multi-CAM 20k. BSI sensor maybe.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on June 26, 2016, 00:04:40
Frank,
all the cameras with the mount screwed into the "plastic" of the body have a damped sound.
The D500, D810, Df, D600, D610, D750, etc .....

The f-mount of the D5 is screwed into metal, like the other single digit bodies and for instance the D800/E.

Might be one of the reasons,
Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 26, 2016, 00:12:09
Dear Ilkka.

You are right. The D5 is a wonderful tool. Very probable not the right tool for me. I gues the slower 8xx or 9xx that will follow after the 810 will be my tool.

It is very fascinating to take the D5 on a trial and you will see some pictures soon from a theatrical performance in next to no light that show the D5 strengths wonderfully.

The advert "vision outperformed" is sooo true.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 26, 2016, 00:24:58
Here is a shot at 40k ISO, real world situation.
What does noise reduction do here?
A matter of taste? At 40k maybe.

NR ON, Full Frame: http://fotokontext.de/ZENTRALKRAFT/nr_on_DSC_5176.jpg
NR OFF, Full frame: http://fotokontext.de/ZENTRALKRAFT/nr_off_DSC_5176.jpg
NR on, Crop: http://fotokontext.de/ZENTRALKRAFT/nr_on_DSC_5176_02.jpg
NR off, Crop: http://fotokontext.de/ZENTRALKRAFT/nr_off_DSC_5176_02.jpg

Scaled down versions:

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 26, 2016, 00:32:39
But now see the big gap to the D500. 20k NEF +1EV in post:

1) NR=off http://fotokontext.de/ZENTRALKRAFT/nr%3Doff_DNX_5552.jpg
2) NR=on http://fotokontext.de/ZENTRALKRAFT/nr%3Don_DNX_5552.jpg

And scaled down files from the D500:

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Akira on June 26, 2016, 00:38:03
Frank, nice to hear your voice.  :)

The NR sucks, but I'm not sure if we could blame the camera set at such a high ISO value.  Have you tried DXO Optics Pro (now the latest version is 11) which is well reputed for its noise reduction.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: David H. Hartman on June 26, 2016, 00:40:27
I'd try Nikon's Better Quality 2013 noise correction and clean up the color noise and mostly leave the luminance noise alone. Too much noise correction blurs out a photo.

Dave
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 26, 2016, 08:45:20
Dave. That is what I do when I really need the single shot. Plus some editing in Photoshop afterwards.

The above pictures give everyone a rough idea how bad the light was and how low its levels.

In the following pictures, D5 only, I show that the camera is able to capture very decent footage in the range
between 12k and 40k ISO. Of course it is possible to open the aperture wider.1.4 or 1.8 to take some pressure
from the ISO. But that is not always a good idea compositionally. The shutter speed is limited mostly by subject
movement. The 85mm will of course still need a little speed to compensate for vibrations. No VR.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 26, 2016, 09:10:00
Here we go. A dream come true in White Balance and ISO performance. Remember. It was near dark:

1) 36000
2) 11400
3) 45600
4) 25600

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 26, 2016, 09:16:22
PS: As the cameras perform a tremendous job to make darkness look bright, here is one file that shows the light level as it appreared to the bare eye:
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on June 26, 2016, 09:21:03

....

Here we are. Completely unscientific but you can hear the difference for sure: http://fotokontext.de/ZENTRALKRAFT/d500_vs_d5_sound.MP3

Indeed the sound that you recorded is in accordance with your sayings.  My camera, though, seems to have a very different sound.  I will try to record it and feedback to this post.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 26, 2016, 20:37:56
First example Low ISO test. ISO 100 I chose
Contestents D600 vs. D5
Same lens, same aperture, same perspective, yet, sorry, slightly different focussing.
Both developed in NX-D with same settings
At manual everything the files of the D600 look always a little darker, roughly one stop and a little blueish.
I might have followed BR's tipp to dial down metering by one stop in the D600. Have to check that.
So here the settings are 300PF @f=5.6 and 250th for the D5 / 125th for the D600

http://fotokontext.de/ZENTRALKRAFT/d600_ANP_1666.jpg
http://fotokontext.de/ZENTRALKRAFT/d5_DSC_7376.jpg

This time I do not say anything, I want to hear what YOU say.

Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: stenrasmussen on June 26, 2016, 20:41:54
First example Low ISO test. ISO 100 I chose
Contestents D600 vs. D5
Same lens, same aperture, same perspective, yet, sorry, slightly different focussing.
Both developed in NX-D with same settings
At manual everything the files of the D600 look always a little darker, roughly one stop and a little blueish.
I might have followed BR's tipp to dial down metering by one stop in the D600. Have to check that.
So here the settings are 300PF @f=5.6 and 250th for the D5 / 125th for the D600

http://fotokontext.de/ZENTRALKRAFT/d600_ANP_1666.jpg
http://fotokontext.de/ZENTRALKRAFT/d5_DSC_7376.jpg

This time I do not say anything, I want to hear what YOU say.

It's a wash wrt IQ in my eyes.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 26, 2016, 20:46:09
This time a high contrast scene in a distance with f=5.6 and 1/500s at ISO=100, AF-S Nikkor 300PF

full size here:

http://fotokontext.de/ZENTRALKRAFT/d600_ANP_1621.jpg
http://fotokontext.de/ZENTRALKRAFT/d5_DSC_7307.jpg

and downscaled:
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 26, 2016, 20:55:37
and 100% crops from a boat with reflecting surfaces, always a difficult topic. It seems only my little Fuji X100T excels in this discipline
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 26, 2016, 21:07:52
And the last example for today, same lens, same aperture, same perspective, same settings in NX-D
D5 vs D600 shootout:
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Akira on June 26, 2016, 21:31:45
The D5 images are easily crisper and more vivid.  In the last two comparisons of the flowers, though, the D600 images look just a little underexposed but more pleasing to my eyes.  The D5 images look a bit too dty, compared to the rather wet D600 ones.

Interestingly, the D5 images look as if no AA filter were present.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 27, 2016, 03:36:45
Akira. Did you download the full size to compare?

Auto WB is a bit candy style in the D5 shots, more neutral
with the D600. I very strongly feel there seems to be some
PostProcessing in the RAW with the D5 files, also true with
the D500 files ... in that sense the D600 files are "rawer".

I hope for some good light outdoors this Monday.

I plan to set up a more standardized test with the lens
screwed to a tripod. Exactly the same focus and the like.

With family etc it is not easy to spare time on a weekend.
Much easier to steal an hour from my workday.

I will take the 4.0/200 Micro for that purpose.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on June 27, 2016, 09:25:01
Yesterday night, I had some concert pictures to take with no stage illumination and at about 9:30 PM. Everything with a D5 and Nikkor 28-300mm f/3.5-5.6:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7130/27855170301_c3a65e6dcd_b.jpg)
ISO 40'000
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7422/27932121625_b6643b009a_k.jpg)
ISO 51'200
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7633/27855168451_5f7faf7fd4_b.jpg)
ISO 81'250

Moderate noise reduction within Lr. Some pictures are cropped.

What surprises me is the color rendition at such high ISO rates.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: ColinM on June 27, 2016, 12:23:33
Yesterday night, I had some concert pictures to take with no stage illumination and at about 9:30 PM. Everything with a D5 and Nikkor 28-300mm f/3.5-5.6:

What surprises me is the color rendition at such high ISO rates.

And what ISO settings did you use?
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Akira on June 27, 2016, 13:26:21
Akira. Did you download the full size to compare?

Auto WB is a bit candy style in the D5 shots, more neutral
with the D600. I very strongly feel there seems to be some
PostProcessing in the RAW with the D5 files, also true with
the D500 files ... in that sense the D600 files are "rawer".

Now I downloaded and examined the full size JPEGs, but my observation hasn't really changed.  The color of D5 images are more saturated, but look more artificial.  Also, I observe some halo artifact in the BAD GODESBERG image by  D5.  D600 image of BAD looks a little less sharp but instead no artifact and seems to offer plenty of details potentially.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 27, 2016, 13:39:15
I will upload some RAW files after I finished the test.

In Mfloyds shots I already see the typical NR artifacts the 5th gen cameras produce.

In bad cases it looks a bit like plaque or badly administered "Camouflage" makeup.

I will use the "flat" profile and see is the profile has an influence on the RAW preprocessor
that seems to produce some harshness even in ISO 100 files.

As you say Akira. D600 files seem to be softer but more detailed at the same settings.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on June 27, 2016, 16:13:20
I will upload some RAW files after I finished the test.

In Mfloyds shots I already see the typical NR artifacts the 5th gen cameras produce.

In bad cases it looks a bit like plaque or badly administered "Camouflage" makeup.

I will use the "flat" profile and see is the profile has an influence on the RAW preprocessor
that seems to produce some harshness even in ISO 100 files.

As you say Akira. D600 files seem to be softer but more detailed at the same settings.


Frank, herewith a dump of the RAWs to a dropbox, so you can make a more thorough analysis:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kspvd6wq7dfi0s0/_D502009.NEF?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3f4anvpts849ugb/_D502017.NEF?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vhzcfrjh05er7ei/_D502018.NEF?dl=0
 
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on June 27, 2016, 17:10:06
And what ISO settings did you use?

They are indicated below each picture.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 27, 2016, 19:23:52
I took a series today. Lens mounted to tripod all NR explicitly switched off.

 I also took the Colorchecker Passport target with each camera in the same light so calibration
can be done by you if you like to use another RAW converter than NX-D.

I will upload the RAW files later
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: golunvolo on June 27, 2016, 23:55:00
Those ISO values are ridiculous  ;D
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 28, 2016, 10:08:22
This morning I went birding with the D5 and 300PF. Much to do today. Post files tomorrow.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 28, 2016, 12:06:58
Now I have to send her back. I will not miss her. She is very similar to my D3 and I do not need this kind of camera anymore.

A D600 in such a body with current electronics WB and AF. That would be something.

The high ISO capability is fantastic. State of the art currently.

I must say. The D600 is still my favourite although the D500 is real fun to use and I am getting better utilizing her.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on June 29, 2016, 00:20:15
..... I must say. The D600 is still my favourite although the D500 is real fun to use and I am getting better utilizing her.

I also have a D610, which I will keep probably: it has an excellent sensor; the AF coverage, though, is not suited for action photography. I hear excellent comments about the D500, but I don't see any reasons to "go back" to Dx format; the latter, essentially because I'm thinking 24x36 mm for about 40 years now.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 29, 2016, 13:57:31
Here are my test shots plus calibration:

D5 (rose) http://fotokontext.de/ZENTRALKRAFT/LVZ_7416.NEF
D5 (calibration) http://fotokontext.de/ZENTRALKRAFT/LVZ_7427.NEF
D500 (rose) http://fotokontext.de/ZENTRALKRAFT/DNX_5633.NEF
D500 (calibration) http://fotokontext.de/ZENTRALKRAFT/DNX_5643.NEF
D600 (rose) http://fotokontext.de/ZENTRALKRAFT/ANP_1696.NEF
D600 (calibration) http://fotokontext.de/ZENTRALKRAFT/ANP_1707.NEF

All taken at 1/160th of a second f=8 All with same lens on same tripod in same light, Lens is Ai-S 200mm Micro Nikkor f=4, all ISO 100 ... ups I just see that I accidentialy must have hit the ISO dial on the D500. Sorry



Here are my development of the 3 files. With no other enhancements the D5 seems the hardest, the D600 the softest, the D500 in between. Color deviation is gone after I set all three cameras "picture style" to "neutral; sharpening = 0".

My current working hypothesis is, that the settings in "picture style" somehow influence the RAW even if all these settings are later taken back and neutralized in NX-D. Can that be or am I on a wrong track?
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on June 29, 2016, 15:59:47
I've been fine tuning my lenses with the D5 using the automated feature. It seems very reproducible (STD about 1) between instances of repeated LV focus + AFFT operations with the same lens and focal length. However, my 24-70E and 70-200/2.8II give about ten points different readings at the short and long focal lengths, so a compromise value needs to be set. I recommend repeating the auto fine tuning several times and using the average as a working starting point for the fine tune value. I find it seems to work quite well and haven't had to adjust these values based on real world shooting so far.

My test conditions have been using the Lens Align target (larger than normal version target, added on top), about 50x focal length shooting distance, window light indoors during the day, to make sure shot noise doesn't affect the result too much.

I find the AFFT feature is very helpful.

In particular, my 300/4 PF with TC-14E III and TC-20E III required significant fine tuning (7 and 13, respectively) whereas the bare lens is close to zero.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 29, 2016, 18:14:57
Thank you Ilkka!
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Lorne on June 29, 2016, 23:48:55
Here are my test shots plus calibration:

All taken at 1/160th of a second f=8 All with same lens on same tripod in same light, Lens is Ai-S 200mm Micro Nikkor f=4, all ISO 100 ... ups I just see that I accidentialy must have hit the ISO dial on the D500. Sorry


Frank,
Your D500 shot had Auto-ISO set, the other shots were set to ISO100 and had -1.3 EV compensation. All the shots are underexposed when I checked them with FastRawViewer. Was that intentional?
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 30, 2016, 05:09:38
It was not my intention to underexpose. It was my intention to have all exposures the same.
The Auto ISO was an operating error. I accidentially switched it on after having in tentionally
switched it off.

Question: Does the exposure compensation influence the measurement? I think not.

I think exposure compensation only influences exposure in Automatic modes, not in M with fixed ISO

Of course I am ready to learn. I can only profit.

Note to myself: do not conduct such neasurements when in time pressure. Take the time they need.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 30, 2016, 08:42:21
So after my test I am still longing for the D850/D900 that is not yet announced. High ISO combined with High Resolution plus fifth generation AF and White Balance that both make for a huge difference.
 
Noise Reduction Technology and the Standard picture style are to be handled with great care. Also the logic behind the exposure control and measurement sytem are to be examined closer. That ist true for both cameras D5 and D500. In the boy series I had two pictures with the boy as a black silhouette and two with blown background. I was aspiring to have all with blown background and still try to understand the reaction of the camera towards what I did.
 
I guess it has to do with Nikon knitting the exposure and the AF even system closer together and also with a recent change in my working style. I use AF-on recently. Before I used the AF/AL measure and store then recompose method which lead to next to no exposure fails.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: ArendV on June 30, 2016, 09:00:42
Frank, I have the same experience with the D500. Every now and then the exposure is completely off with completely blown out highlights in very contrasty scenes. I am now using spot metering more than I have ever done before but still get these exposure surprises sometimes, so also still learning how to control this.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Fons Baerken on June 30, 2016, 09:33:06
i think changing the aperture for more dof may be helpful, and indeed in the boy shot spotmetering should be prefered, with af-on only one automates too much,.. 2 cents
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Andy on June 30, 2016, 10:57:07
Frank, I have the same experience with the D500. Every now and then the exposure is completely off with completely blown out highlights in very contrasty scenes. I am now using spot metering more than I have ever done before but still get these exposure surprises sometimes, so also still learning how to control this.
Arend,
what is your a4 and b5 setting?
Do you have any of the face recognition features in AF turned on?

The face recognition adds a ton of uncertainity
rgds, Andy
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: ArendV on June 30, 2016, 11:41:42
Andy, I have switched all the face recognition features to off (So A4 3D-Tracking Face Detection is off and B5 Matrix Metering Face Detection is off). Also did this as they are supposed to be more power consuming.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 30, 2016, 12:15:14
what is your a4 and b5 setting?
Do you have any of the face recognition features in AF turned on?
The face recognition adds a ton of uncertainity
rgds, Andy

Thank you, Andy!
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on June 30, 2016, 15:44:14
Frank, I have the same experience with the D500. Every now and then the exposure is completely off with completely blown out highlights in very contrasty scenes. I am now using spot metering more than I have ever done before but still get these exposure surprises sometimes, so also still learning how to control this.

I have the same experience: where I only used spot exposure in very specific cases; now I have to select spot metering more and more often (e.g. in very contrasty scenes); otherwise I have underexposed subjects.

a4 is on for 3D Tracking; b5 is off.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on June 30, 2016, 15:55:31
Is any issue with a sticking, or slowly closing, aperture mechanism out of the question?

Very erratic exposures in the direction of total overexposure tend to correlate with aperture issues, not metering as such. Look at the EXIF record to see if settings for the blown frames appear normal. If that is the case, the culprit probably is the manner the lens stops down.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 30, 2016, 16:21:18
I summarize the experience from 3 users on 2 camera models from the fifth generation here that there seems to be "some change" in the way very high contrast scenes are handled by auto exposure modes.

There is some learning curve here. I do not say yet that there might be something wrong with the metering and auto exposure system. It is just different than in all the Digital Nikons I have used before.

I have experienced these problems in Matrix, Medium weighted and Spot.

All of my lenses are quite new (less that 3 years old) and regularly checked by NPS. I do not believe in the "sticky aperture" theory, but I will check setting of "offshots" in detail.

Frank

Low contrast scenes are recorded flawlessly with a tendency in Matrix metering on the D5 to make the scene appear "brighter as the eye sees". You might want to correct for the "appearence with the bare eye".
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on June 30, 2016, 16:29:22
On the NG Scotland event, Erik and I discovered several cameras that apparently malfunctioned and the problem was the aperture stop-down lever had come out of alignment. Any leak of lubrication onto the iris also will potentially cause issues, in particular at rapid shooting rates.

I have used my D500 for a while now and find the exposures being very consistent, although at the default factory setting they are a tad 'rich' for my taste and scenery, thus I have adjusted the zero point for all modes by -1/3 EV.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 30, 2016, 16:41:23
Yes, Bjørn, before I draft a verdict I need reproducible proof which I do not have yet. I have in fact some proof of user error like stepping in bright sunlight with 200 & f=2.2 and the poor Auto ISO is not able to tune down ISO below 100.

Another time I set exposure compensation to +1,7 in blasting backlight and might have hit some bright spot or some dark spot as metering spot. So I have correctly exposed, overexposed and underexposed shots all in the same series.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on June 30, 2016, 16:50:07
Has anyone tested the radio-based advanced wireless lighting yet? I'm trying to get my WR-R10 firmware upgraded to 3.0 so I could use it (it is in service right now), and then I have to find an SB-5000.

I've only read two blog posts from users who have used it and it seemed to work well for their uses but the reports were not very detailed. I've also read two user posts on forums which were less happy with it - one reported that they couldn't get the WR-R10 to trigger multiple radio flashes but this could be a user error. Nikon says "When paired with the WR-R10 and the D5 or the D500, this Speedlight can control up to six groups (A-F) or 18 Speedlights for truly advanced wireless lighting. " I am not sure what controls what here, shouldn't the camera with the WR-R10 control all the remote flashes? Why would the SB-5000 control the other flashes?
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on June 30, 2016, 16:51:05
Frank: Agree that user errors are always the default likely explanation, in particular when one is dealing with a new camera model.

However, that does not rule out other causes for the observed discrepancies and errors. I have seen and been troubled too many times by sticking apertures of defunct aperture coupling to believe otherwise.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on July 01, 2016, 20:02:06
I just came to think about why my auto AF fine tune results are so consistent. I used daylight for the target and the background is dark gray seamless paper which is very homogeneous and reflects little light. I've always wondered how much of an influence light reflected from the background can have on AF testing and believe that it can have some influence if it is not controlled. Some users report great variation in their auto AF fine tune results and I believe the test conditions should be carefully controlled after which it works very well.

I have reprogram my shooting with the D5 ... I shot a concert this afternoon and I did my characteristic overshooting to compensate for AF variations. But now they're all in focus so overshooting was a waste of time, effort and card space. I love it.

However I also did some street shots with the subjects in the shade and background lit by the sun and the matrix meter underexposed the subjects quite badly. I'm not saying the D810 would not have a similar thing but with that camera the recovery zone is deep (at low ISO). The D810's successor (presumably with the Multi-CAM 20k) will be some camera. However for me the D5 saves a lot of time in post because of its consistent auto white balance across a broader range of lighting spectra and the consistent autofocus (I don't have to shoot excess frames) and the smaller files. It is a pity Nikon couldn't have the D810's base ISO signal quality in a fast camera; it slightly reduces the value of the camera to me. I guess I will be carrying the D810 for shoots in sunlight for now. It really has phenomenal image quality at ISO 64-1000. I was shooting catwalk shows a month ago in bright sunlight and the D810 with 200/2II and 300/4 PF and although I was shooting into the light there was just no issue with the backlit subjects' faces. However with the 200/2 some of the shots of the approaching models were not in focus (linear points have a hard time on finding detail in the skin of young female models. I am looking forward to seeing how the D5 handles this situation. Certainly its ability to focus in low light has been a revelation.

By the way I find the 300/4 PF to be one of the best autofocusers of any lens I have used. It's super consistent.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on July 02, 2016, 00:18:07
Thank you Ilkka. As far as I have comparable experience to yours, I can absolutely copy your statemets and underline every word.

We urgently need a fifth generation D8XX!
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on July 02, 2016, 09:52:21
I had excellent experiences with highly backlit subjects on the move: exposure; dynamics; AF:

I'm still waiting for an example where the (proven) lower dynamics of the D5 sensor translates in lesser pictures; may be, the sensor gives you less exposure latitude; but that's probably all, given that the total EV latitude of print rarely exceeds 7; and screens 9, the latter provided that you set your black point at very low levels.

So I couldn't entirely agree with Ilkka's third statement, although I had some cases where subjects were underexposed and had to turn on spot metering.

Further having high dynamic range in both high and low ISO situations seems to be a matter of choices to be made; Nikon appears to have taken the high ISO route.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: tommiejeep on July 02, 2016, 11:24:53
MF, very nice.  I'm not looking at a D5 but I still use the D3S for fast action sports in very changeable light.  Needing the speeds and associated rise in ISO(rarely get close to Base ISO)  I'd rather have the camera skewed towards high ISO.   What I look for is very accurate Auto WB and Auto ISO.  Never know which way a play is going to go on the field and what the light will be.

Tom




Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on July 02, 2016, 12:28:19
Auto WB is perfect or next to perfect in both D5 and D500 ... The D500 is better than the D3 in every single aspect.

The D5 adds super Hi ISO, slightly better AF and slightly higher speed to that.

Using D3 and D5 in parallel, I must confess the D5 ergonomics is better.

Alas. I like the gripped D500 used in parallel with the D5 better. See above. Landscape mode D5.
Portrait mode D500. At least for my hands.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on July 02, 2016, 17:32:06
There are a number of approaches to mapping the information from a low ISO high dynamic range shot into one that can be printed or displayed on the screen. This can be done by dodging and burning, or using masks to make local adjustments to the image. In my case I typically leave the subject slighly underexposed in the original capture in order to preserve background highlights. I then lift the midtones towards higher values using curves and compress the highlight tones to lower contrast and increase the contrast on the shadow side. This brings out noise if there is any in the shadows, and is cleaner to do with a D810 than D5 (at low ISO). The effect that I'm looking for (reduced highlight contrast and increased shadow contrast) is intentional and spot metering and increasing the exposure for the main subject would not produce the same result.

When photographing e.g. people in a sailing boat, I find extreme contrasts quite common and yet I must deal with the situation. A fill flash can be helpful obviously, when the sails are white and suitable for bouncing, but sometimes the geometry of the situation is against bouncing and one can solve the situation by taking advantage of high dynamic range (e.g. by dodging a face). The D810's sensor is immensely helpful in this kind of portrait in a sailing boat in daylight shots. Success often requires a combination of precise exposure and careful post-processing.

With the D5 I'll be able to take advantage of radio-controlled flash and position it using a clamp to a suitable location for bouncing. I look forward to this actually, though  I'd rather use something less expensive. (Yes, I'm aware of Yongnuo etc. but I'd rather not have so many batteries and components to manage.)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on July 02, 2016, 19:02:21
Dear Ilkka, thank you for sharing your thoughts & experience. Indeed, you have a very valid point.  I will have to make it out for myself, as, for the time being, I have no pictures-of-sailing-boats-with-people; but this will be the case within a fortnight, as I was asked to photograph a sailing competition on nearly close contact.  In the meantime, a picture taken with my former D4s.  We'll see how the D5 will behave in similar circumstances i.e low ISO (100)  :)


Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on July 02, 2016, 19:05:33
Ilkka. I love your insightful posts full of practical knowledge and consideration. I am always fascinated how many approaches there are to get to a certain result. Thank you!
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on July 09, 2016, 10:14:39
Senscore just published their D5 sensor results http://www.senscore.org

This are the conclusions: "Nikon's latest full frame low-light sensor cannot match the previous generation's excellent noise performance, but in every other aspect, it manages to improve on its predecessor. However, the moderate improvements are somewhat disappointing for a new generation flagship camera. Obviously, a camera is much more than just sensor performance, but the fact that this is the best sensor Nikon can offer 4 years after the launch of the D4 is worrying all the same. Still, the D5 is a great camera and the new #1 in the database."

Also here http://nikonrumors.com/2016/07/08/senscore-posted-their-nikon-d5-test-results.aspx/

It is also noteworthy that the D5 "beats" the Canon 1 DX Mk II in every domain, even with regard to noise, where the D5 is the weakest. From my perspective - compared to the D4s - I observed the improvement in color and tonal range.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on July 09, 2016, 22:47:31
I'm not sure what the "noise" column means at senscore.org, could it be the read noise and exclude photon shot noise? That would make the rest of the data reasonable. All the color sensitivity, tonal range are functions of the SNR. 

I've noticed (as others have before) that the high ISO noise reduction (turned on in camera, activates the Noise Reduction feature in Capture NX-D when it is used as the raw converter), creates quite bad looking blotches of blur at very high ISO (e.g. 8000-12800 are the images that I'm looking at) and I by far prefer High ISO NR OFF. I'm pretty shocked at how inconsistently the algorithm handles detail. I haven't used such ridiculous ISO settings in previous cameras so I'm not sure if this is a new bug or something that always was there but I didn't notice since I was working with lower ISO settings. I think the problem is so severe that I feel the need to contact Nikon about it. It just can't be right. Anyway, without NR, processed in NX-D, the files look good, and at low to medium high ISOs (up to, say, 3200) I haven't noticed offensive artifacts but I haven't looked carefully where these start to occur. I think I'll just turn high ISO NR off for now, and consider trying other software for noise reduction (e.g. I have a license of DXO Optics Pro 9, but I need to update to get it to support the D5 I am sure). Other options include the Google Nik Collection which I have and I could try. Or just leave them without noise reduction, the D5 high ISO noise seems well behaved (as long as the algorithm is turned off!).

I am happy about the camera's very rapid response time. 12 fps is just totally ridiculous (if I turn it on, I seem to end up with a minimum of 3 frames most of the time even when I try to just capture one).   :o I single shot mode (which is what I'm more used to), the camera still feels faster and the AF is very sure footed. The build and ergonomics are a perfect fit for my hands and it doesn't seem that I want to pick up any of my other cameras for a while.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on July 11, 2016, 18:07:11
I don't use Nikon postproduction software anymore; everything is processed through Lr/Ps. Every "in-body" controllable image processing is turned off, except long-exposure NR. And I'm wondering whether Adobe will further fine tune the D5 processing algorithms, because there seems still to be glitches in some exposure situations.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on July 11, 2016, 18:40:28
If you report the issues to Adobe perhaps they will fix them. I use ACR for D810 and D750 images and mostly Nx-D for D5.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on July 13, 2016, 00:32:49
If you report the issues to Adobe perhaps they will fix them. I use ACR for D810 and D750 images and mostly Nx-D for D5.
I haven't found a systematic pattern for the time being. Question: why are you using NX-D for the D5, and ACR for your other bodies ?
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on July 13, 2016, 12:36:57
I haven't found a systematic pattern for the time being. Question: why are you using NX-D for the D5, and ACR for your other bodies ?

The NX-D process is too slow for D810 files on my computer to use on a routine basis but for D5 files it is ok. I like it that the camera settings are followed as initial settings for the raw conversion, so I don't have to do those routine steps to get started. In the past I found I got better results using Nikon software for high ISO (6400) images from D3/D700 sensors than using ACR so I kind of figured the D5 would be similar since the sensor is of the same lineage. I haven't done a systematic comparison of high ISO images between ACR and NX-D yet. I should do that.

For the D810 I normally just use ACR or LR and only use NX-D for individual images in specific cases where the image benefits from it. I remember one instance where the LoCA correction in NX-D saved a crucial image of bride and groom exiting the church; activating this feature meant waiting for 1 minute for the processing to complete (!) but the outcome was perfect. In general I am hoping Nikon to get their software up to speed (NX2 in its last versions was several times faster than NX-D on my computer) so it becomes a more viable option for those of us who want to use it.

Adobe sometimes neglects to support some products, e.g., there is no profile for the VR 200/2 II (the last time I looked) so if I wanted to correct the vignetting wide open I have to do it manually or use other software. I don't normally mind the slight vignetting but if I have to do an asymmetrical crop of the image, then the vignetting can become asymmetric and that's annoying̣.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on July 13, 2016, 18:51:08
Thank you Ilkka for your answer. Your 200mm f/2 VRII lens seems to be taken into account since version 6.3 of ACR https://helpx.adobe.com/fr/x-productkb/multi/lens-profile-support.html#Nikon
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on July 13, 2016, 18:57:43
Thanks for the tip. I can now fix a few images. ;-)
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: David H. Hartman on July 13, 2016, 19:45:24
I remember one instance where the LoCA correction in NX-D saved a crucial image of bride and groom exiting the church; activating this feature meant waiting for 1 minute for the processing to complete (!) but the outcome was perfect.

Any chance the time was increased because a hard drive had gong to sleep? I found sometimes I'd start working and then have a delay and cured the problem by adjusting the power saving settings to keep HD(s) awake longer. You probably already though of this. What about an SSD?

Dave
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on July 13, 2016, 19:53:52
I use an SSD for OS, programs, cache and typically also to store the images that are being edited (though I can't recall if that was the case 10 months ago when I was working on that image). I just now checked that turning on "Axial color aberration"  control feature causes the update to take 15s on my current setup on a D5 file (21MP); the image I was using it on was a D810 file (36MP) so it was larger and the process took longer. I know I should get a faster computer ... stretching the current one a bit further.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: David H. Hartman on July 13, 2016, 20:08:37
Ilkka,

I waited thirteen years to update my computer. It was so bad that CNX2 could not update the embedded JPG in a D800 NEF properly and saved an image that was fully striped with blue lines. The highpass filter gave me green stripes. I built a modest Windows 7 box with a Core i7 4700 3.6GHz and 16GB RAM. The OS is on an SSD. That solved all my problems with CNX2 and later with CNX-D 1.4.0.

A cousin gave me a vintage, mid 2007, 24" iMAC running El Capitan 10.11.5. It has a Core Duo (something) at 2.5GHz. I haven't tried to install CNX2 as I only have one license and it takes monkey business as the install doesn't work with El Capitan. It runs CNX-D slow but reliably and cut and paste VNX2 from an old Lepard OS.

These cameras require more CPU speed and more memory. There is no getting around it.

Dave
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on July 13, 2016, 20:27:08
I don't need Axial color aberration correction often so the speed of the correction alhorithm is not important to me. ACR opens a 21 MP file in 3s on my computer (which is 5-6 years old) that's fast enough for me for now (D810 files take slightly longer). Maybe next year I will get a new computer. I would like to get to a point where opening a file takes at most 1-2s.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on September 13, 2016, 18:24:28
Just digging up the topic: has anybody some feedback ?

Mine is now 5 ½ months in use (since March 31); about 8'000 clicks in varying conditions, but most sports (yachting, aviation, car racing, athletics). In a nutshell (my benchmark being my former D4s): camera with best color depth and tonal range; unbelievable AF, even more performing than the already excellent D4s; I love the rear touch screen and the new way to assign functions to the buttons; I have never been impeded by the lower dynamic range in lower ISO's.

It changed, to some extent, my behavior with regard to high ISO settings i.e. I let it go, without bothering, to ISO 25'600 (or even higher). I had to adapt my post-production settings (Lightroom) by reducing dramatically all basic settings: highlights,  shadows, black and white point, clarity and vibrance; in other words, you can take the images almost just from the camera body, without any postproduction - must be great for JPEG shooters (what I'm not).

Conclusion: best camera I had; but it took me some time to adapt and find the right settings (even coming from a D4s); and, let's touch wood, not one single problem.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: bobfriedman on September 13, 2016, 23:31:01
mine is 6 months and 58,000 actuations... no complaints
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on September 16, 2016, 15:05:46
My D5 has also been flawless (purchased in June, shot about 9000 frames so far). I love the AF, and the responsiveness of the camera. The XQD cards are superb, download to computer is mind bogglingly fast.  :) Battery life is very long as expected, and the camera feels great in the hand. I have learned to love the viewfinder, it feels more evenly lit to the corners than in the smaller cameras.

The sound of the camera is a bit loud and at a Lied concert I had to turn on Quiet mode, which subdued the sounds appreciably but I had to learn to time my shots all over again. I will investigate the quality of frame grabs from 4K video at some point to see if that would give useful results for this type of a situation. I would then be focusing manually and use a loupe or external display.

I have mostly been happy with what I am getting from auto AF fine tune but with the 105/1.4, the first real exception occured. Auto fine tuning gave me a value of +2 but in the real world -5 works best. I don't know the reason for this discrepancy. With my other f/1.4 lenses I have been happy with auto fine tuned results and the focusing is nearly flawless even at f/1.4. 

What I would like to see in the future is 1)if possible,  increased AF point spread along the short dimension of the frame (long dimension AF point spread is now more than sufficient for me), 2) LCD zooming during video recording, 3) a Nikon manufactured loupe for the LCD, which fits perfectly on the camera and doesn't require a heavy construction or gluing a frame to the camera, 4) a semi-quiet mode which approximates D810 S mode shutter delay and sound level and can match its operational speed, 5) when the semi quiet (or semi slow) mode is used, increased low to mid ISO dynamic range through a slower sensor read operation would be great to have. 6) I would prefer more firmative click when pressing the AF-ON button (now that button alone feels loose and flimsy).

However, results from this camera are fantastic and the ability to get the shot (in focus) is remarkable. The only real drawbacks I can find are the loud sound, and the fact that it doesn't handle high scene contrast at low ISO as sweetly and smoothly as the D810. I know this doesn't bother a lot of users but I would like to see an improvement in this area.

Although the auto white balance usually gives more neutral images in general, sometimes I have gotten "cold" images using it in indoor venues and I got some feedback on this from my wedding photos, after which I adjusted them by hand to bring them a bit closer to what we are used to seeing in similar conditions. The location had warm interior surfaces which may have thrown the AWB off. However, I've run into it elsewhere occasionally as well. Overall I find the AWB an improvement over my previous Nikons.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: bobfriedman on September 16, 2016, 23:17:46
correction... sadly.. auto fine tune is my only complaint.. i currently fine tune using lensalign and it takes many hours..

for long lenses 500-600-800 it is critically important.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on September 17, 2016, 19:41:01
How does the auto fine tune fail in your case?

I mostly find the values I'm getting (with a few repeated attempts followed by averaging) to work well in practice, with the exception of the 105 which required a different setting in practice.

I don't currently use lenses longer than 300mm (without TC; with 1.4X I have 420mm). Auto fine tune gave a useful value with the 300 PF with and without TC-14E III. With TC-20E III I'm not getting useable autofocus at all when used with this lens.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: bobfriedman on September 18, 2016, 11:53:27
auto-fine tune: 

1) nothing is repeatable.. and the results widely vary.

2) results are not even close to the lensalign result. - sometime entirely opposite

believe me i spend many hours to focus tune and have tried the auto tune with the same target that i just focus tuned using lens align - not even close

followed their procedure as well... not even close.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on September 18, 2016, 12:15:50
I am not doubting you! I just wonder what the cause of the issue is. I get reproducible results using auto fine tuning by using a homogeneous dark background and making sure the light on the target is daylight and brighter on the target than the light on the background. Distance between background and target about 1m, and between target and camera about 50 x focal length. I use Lensalign targets and align it using the holes. Then I put on the bigger target intended for long lenses (to make sure the af sensor doesn't see the surround). I then make sure both focus points (Lv and viewfinder) are centered. I go through the auto AF fine tune process 3-5 times and I seem to get similar values each time. My tripod is oversize for the lenses that I use so there is no noticeable flexing while pressing the controls on the camera.

I would guess that with long lenses and outdoor testing, light and background features may add to the "noise" in the measurement. Also touching the camera when the lens is mounted using Nikon collars may cause some flexing and erratic results.

Of course, a whole another question is whether the auto fine tune process gives the correct mean after averaging. Apart from one lens I've been happy. I realize that my studio setup would not work for testing really long lenses. The reason I am particular about the background is that autofocus often misses the target in backlight and thus I want to exclude any stray light from the background.

I don't know if this helps but I am keen on better understanding how we can obtain reliable fine tune settings and developing procedures for that.
 
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: bobfriedman on September 18, 2016, 17:35:27
i do all that... indoors.. very large room which is hard to find with continuous studio lighting.

beats me.. just doesn't work... also... the DoF for these lenses+TC's is about a half a foot.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: MFloyd on September 18, 2016, 17:53:09
I never had to fine tune lenses with the D5 and before: I'm probably lucky, or it may be to the fact that the distance I shoot with telelenses is rarely less than 15 meters which gives you almost 20 cm DOF, which is, I believe, within the boundaries of any fine tuning.

I tried a couple of times the auto fine tuning at the very beginning, to find out how it works and how it compares to the more classical method. I admit, I did not made any further investigation, but the few results didn't seem consistent nor reliable. So I quickly abandoned and went back to "no fine tuning".

This is my own and very limited experience, which I simply convey. I do not to try to prove or to demonstrate something.
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: bobfriedman on September 18, 2016, 20:39:58
well i have seen the difference and now religiously focus tune for wildlife .. with big glass that is..

i havene't tuned anything under 200mm except the 200/2 without issues.  i had to shoot a relative's wedding using the 24-70/2.8 and the 70-200/2.8G no problem untuned two weeks ago with the D5
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Michael Anderson on September 22, 2016, 12:10:13
I pre-ordered a D5 and later cancelled the order after taking too much notice of all the initial reviews.

I have now bought the D5 after getting over my initial concerns and can say from 2 months usage that it is a fabulous camera.

The AF is a massive "step change" over the D4s and the 9 point dynamic area mode AF mode is excellent for my uses. The extra 25% increase in sensor size is most welcome and the initial concerns over low ISO DR have not been a problem for me so far, a week in Scotland in 3 weeks time will be a full testing experience for the 5.

I have used all my 4 zoom lenses over a range of 16-400mm on the camera and have not had any problems.

In summary a delightful improvement, a larger sensor D5X? would be most welcome if Nikon read our threads!
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 22, 2016, 14:52:22
Until now all the D5 owners I know are very happy with the camera. Wonderful!
Title: Re: Nikon D5 - first impressions
Post by: bobfriedman on September 22, 2016, 23:03:18
i am very happy with the camera... the only disappointment is the auto af tune which no other camera has had.. so i am sure they will fix it sooner or later