NikonGear'23

Gear Talk => What the Nerds Do => Topic started by: Bjørn Rørslett on June 20, 2015, 10:36:30

Title: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on June 20, 2015, 10:36:30
[ Posted 29 November 2011 - 13:21 Modified and reposted by agreement ]

Today I flew down to Copenhagen, Denmark to team up with the Great Dane (Erik Lund, also known as Dr. Lens). With me, unable to object, was my Noct-Nikkor 58/1.2. It is slated to undergo CPU surgery ("chipping").

This is a documentation of a day in its life which might well be its last. Follow the sequel to learn what happens in near real time.

(http://www.fotozones.com/live/uploads/monthly_11_2011/post-15-0-14780900-1322572862.jpg)

(http://www.fotozones.com/live/uploads/monthly_11_2011/post-15-0-62692600-1322573717.jpg)

(http://www.fotozones.com/live/uploads/monthly_11_2011/post-15-0-71276100-1322574263.jpg)

(http://www.fotozones.com/live/uploads/monthly_11_2011/post-15-0-21109700-1322574824.jpg)

(http://www.fotozones.com/live/uploads/monthly_11_2011/post-15-0-90682500-1322576120.jpg)

And, finally, the CPU assembly is completed, fitted into the mount, and checked to see that the read-out is correct.

(http://www.fotozones.com/live/uploads/monthly_11_2011/post-15-0-22840600-1322576664.jpg)

This seems to come along nicely.

Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on June 20, 2015, 10:41:21
Now, ready for the gruelling Stage Two.

First, cleaning dirt off the assembly.

(http://www.fotozones.com/live/uploads/monthly_11_2011/post-15-0-13368400-1322581708.jpg)

Then, split the optics at the iris.

(http://www.fotozones.com/live/uploads/monthly_11_2011/post-15-0-69088300-1322581726.jpg)

Critical phase is trimming the rear lens group. Not only part of the casing has to go, the glass itself has to be cut into. Beer acts as the cooling substance to help complete this operation.

(http://www.fotozones.com/live/uploads/monthly_11_2011/post-15-0-82351500-1322581741.jpg)

Almost there now .... and well into the two rear elements as well ....

(http://www.fotozones.com/live/uploads/monthly_11_2011/post-15-0-23346800-1322584099.jpg)

Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on June 20, 2015, 10:43:42
A little later, all parts of the Noct had aggregated again, and only the CPU pins disclose its recent surgery :)

(http://www.fotozones.com/live/uploads/monthly_11_2011/post-15-0-24493300-1322594969.jpg)

Here they are, the only two known Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 Ai [P] lenses. Erik's to the left, mine to the right.

(http://www.fotozones.com/live/uploads/monthly_11_2011/post-15-0-06441400-1322597756.jpg)

Now, time for doing something else.

Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on June 20, 2015, 10:48:04
In answer to many questions about the Noct:

It's too late in history to get good deals on Nocts now. Sad but basically true. It has turned into a legend deserved or not. Prices have escalated out of control as well.

When I purchased it many years ago, the situation was entirely different. What follows is a true story.

A local shop here in Oslo had a second-hand copy (pristine) sitting at the back of a shelf, collecting dust, for more than 1 year. Perhaps because it was AI in an age where everyone had a frenzy about AiS, who knows? Or too exotic for the lay photographer? One day I commented this and the clerk brightened up and asked if I was interested in buying it. To which I replied "Of course, but I won't pay much". He was pleased to get rid of it and he got what money I could muster that day, which amounted to about $150. Thus I became the owner of a Noct-Nikkor.

It should be added that the photo store later went bust... Maybe I made a small contribution to that outcome ?
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on June 20, 2015, 10:53:49
After the Noct-Nikkor had been properly dealt with, we continued on other projects.

First out is "chipping" the 85/2 AI Nikkor, thereafter some updates on CPUs for 20/3.5 and a new CPU for the Macro-Nikkor 65/4.5.

Some time was spent modifying an Olympus 35 mm f/2.8 Shift from OM to "F" mount. In doing this lots of sparks flew,...

(http://www.fotozones.com/live/uploads/monthly_11_2011/post-15-0-21644900-1322677690.jpg)

At a later stage, delicate handiwork was called for, as witnessed by the Lens Doctor at work,

(http://www.fotozones.com/live/uploads/monthly_11_2011/post-15-0-36539100-1322677775.jpg)

No wonder refreshments were called for :D.

(http://www.fotozones.com/live/uploads/monthly_11_2011/post-15-0-90831900-1322677843.jpg)

Thereafter, repairing my 28 mm f/3.5 Tilt/Shift Nikkor was a breeze !

Tomorrow we'll go scouting around Copenhagen and environs. List of remaining modifications is now empty (for the time being)

Here are the combined outputs from this "repair & shoot" workshop.

From left to right:

    28 PC-Nikkor Tilt/Shift, new focus assembly (old had worn-out parts)
    Leitz APO-Telyt 180 mm f/3.4, converted to "F" mount, CPU-modified, infinity calibrated
    Nikkor 85 mm f/2, CPU-modified
    Novoflex Noflexar 35 mm f/3.5 (original "F" mount, the rare version), CPU-modified, infinity calibrated
    Olympus OM 35 mm f/2.8 Double Shift, converted to "F" mount, CPU-modified, infinity calibrated
    Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2, CPU-modified
    BR-2 extension, CPU-modified (front right)
    E-2 extension, CPU-modified (front left)

(http://www.fotozones.com/live/uploads/monthly_12_2011/post-15-0-43523000-1323287285.jpg)


Not bad for a few days (OK, so the working hours could be a "little" on the long side sometimes, but we had heaps of fun)

Erik & Bjørn
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Erik Lund on June 20, 2015, 11:38:09
I have very fond memories of that surgery.

The story started actually more than a year earlier when I did the first chipping of my own Noct-Nikkor, it took the most hours of a weekend to do it, I had to re assemble the lens many times to get the parts in the right place to avoid interference with the CPU contact block and screws...

When I showed the lens when we met he just took it out of my hands and played with it on and off the next days, he handed it back with a quick remark; It works...

First then was I satisfied, since I knew the performance was identical with Bjørn's untouched sample, the rear group is super important and it had been taken apart and reassembled several times...

That's also kudos to the Nikon design team to be able to make the tolerances tight enough for overhauling/repairs.

But then I had a new challenge; Bjørn started asking if I would 'Butcher' his Noct... Recalling the frighting feeling of grinding the rear elements with a Dremel grind, sparks and small glass particles flying... well in the end I gave in as you see above :) But only because Bjørn was willing to go all in :)

The performance of the old Noct-Nikkor is amazing, it's capable of creating some fantastic Bokeh and overall just a really nice tool.

The only real point of weakness is the lack of close up possibility that it shares with the new incarnation 58mm 1.4 AFS so you really need to have a short extension tube for it, it has unit focusing so no problem with the IQ as you get closer.
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on June 20, 2015, 12:57:51
To me, it was a nice lens for which I had paid $150 ... Had it perished due to the surgery, oh well, what is life but a sequence of miseries interspersed with a quick glimpse of sun rays?
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Frank Fremerey on June 20, 2015, 19:47:11
Impressive. I wish I had the eyes to use Manual focus at all.
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Øivind Tøien on June 21, 2015, 00:23:41
Nice to see that thread back here and hear more about the background behind it!
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Airy on June 21, 2015, 11:02:50
The last one I saw was a relatively good deal... 3000€ and it won't go, then down to 2500€ and I passed. It was then quickly sold.
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Jørgen Ramskov on June 23, 2015, 09:29:27
"it works" :D
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Jethro Sang on June 28, 2015, 05:19:27
I must say, these surgeries are not for the weak-hearted, both doctor and audience alike.
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Tristin on November 28, 2015, 08:36:00
$150.  Wow.  I never noticed that Nocts do not have a stop for f/1.4, I wish the f/1.2 lacked it as well!
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Erik Lund on November 28, 2015, 08:43:21
The f/1.4 stop is there just not indicated on the aperture ring
I gave my lens an half stop notch between 2 and 2.8 since it's quite sweet spot for the lens if a little more uniform sharpness is required.
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Tristin on November 28, 2015, 16:53:24
That sounds nifty.  I avoid f/2.8 as the bokeh really nosedives compared to f/2, and for sharpness I skip to f/4.  How difficul lt an operation is this "f/2.4"?
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Erik Lund on November 28, 2015, 17:28:49
just a simple extra notch in the ring  ;) It seems an 50mm 1.2 Ai has this by birth... Ais doesn't...
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Bjørn Jorde on February 24, 2016, 05:11:50
Erik & Bjørn,

From the description and pictures of the chipping of the Noct,
Looks like the 50 1.2 AIS would entail a similar butchering?
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Tristin on February 24, 2016, 05:27:22
They report the 50mm f/1.2 Ai-s as not really being chippable due to lack of space inside it.   :'(

http://www.naturfotograf.com/lens_CPUconversion.html
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: richardHaw on February 24, 2016, 05:56:36
just a simple extra notch in the ring  ;) It seems an 50mm 1.2 Ai has this by birth... Ais doesn't...

yes, that is actually annoying because I cannot have something in between f/2 and f/2.8  :o :o :o
for 1.2 lenses, there is a big jump in the way things are rendered, 1/2 stop goes a long way in big apertures.
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Tristin on February 24, 2016, 06:16:38
Richard, could not agree more.  When I have the funds to get my 105mm chipped I will be sending my 50mm f/1.2 along to be getting f/2.4'd.  I wish it had f/22 as well.
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Hugh_3170 on February 24, 2016, 07:07:10
Tristin, you may have missed this recent posting in respect of using a Dandelion chip - it seems that there is at least enough space (just) on the outside to chip the 50mm AiS f/1.2 with this alternative chipping technology.

Link: http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php/topic,2860.msg38545.html#msg38545

The proof that you can fit a Dandelion to the 50/1.2 AIS. Erik at his best :D

This method of attaching the Dandelion alleviates most if not all problems and weakness of the usual positioning, in which the chip will be exposed to excessive wear and tear. Still, the pins are on the long side so their tips will wear rapidly.


They report the 50mm f/1.2 Ai-s as not really being chippable due to lack of space inside it.   :'(

http://www.naturfotograf.com/lens_CPUconversion.html
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Tristin on February 24, 2016, 09:09:38
That's good news.  We'll see how Bjørn's holds up.
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Erik Lund on February 24, 2016, 09:37:42
The Naturfotograf.com pages has not been updated for years, so  please use them as such, time moves on ;)

This thread is about using one of Bjørns CPU's - inside a long Nikon CPU contact block to chip the Noct-Nikkor, as can be deducted I first did it on my own Noct-Nikkor an Ai - It was extremely difficult to create the needed volume and many different solutions where discarded in the process,,,

But in the end I got it to work, the most important was that it retained the out of focus blur circles round and intact so the optical quality was intact, Bjørn tested this on the scavenger tour,,,

Several times after this Bjørn asked me to chip his lens as well, this thread is the chipping of his Noct-Nikkor Ai.

I believe I have chipped one more, I forgot who,,,

I have chipped several 50mm Ais 1.2 with Dandelion CPU, by cutting the integrated light-baffle on the F-mount and it was quite neat solution since only a little bit of the rear element housing needed a trim, but still this is a rater fragile solution,,,

Later I wanted to chip my own brand new 50mm 1.2 Ais and it occurred to me that the Dandelion contacts and electronics could fit inside the integrated metal light-baffle.

I chopped up a Dandelion so only the pins, electronics and the rear of the contact block was left and hollowed out the light baffle, drilled the 5 holes for the contact block and used epoxy glue to the inside of the light-baffle. Then I removed as much of the rear of the contact block as much as possible, then trimming down the rear element housing as little as possible - A really strong solution.

Here is an image of the lens http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php/topic,2860.msg38545.html#msg38545

This was a lot of very delicate work, surgery on a mosquito comes to mind  :o

Bjørn came around and tested the lens, liked it and traded it for a 50mm 1.2 Ai then took it to Nikon Nordic, they tested the position of the pins, they where all within factory specification, actually spot on.

The 50mm 1.2 Ai has a larger rear element so it would need a lot of trimming to fit the CPU, similar to a Noct - So actually not worth all the work,,,

Today I would suggest to use a the 50mm 1.2 Ais Dandelion chipping method on a Noct-Nikkor - But it doesn't give as many parameters as Bjørns CPU does,,,
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Erik Lund on February 24, 2016, 09:41:44
yes, that is actually annoying because I cannot have something in between f/2 and f/2.8  :o :o :o
for 1.2 lenses, there is a big jump in the way things are rendered, 1/2 stop goes a long way in big apertures.

These 'slots' for 1/3 or 1/2 aperture stops are very easy to ad to the aperture ring.
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Erik Lund on February 24, 2016, 09:44:57
Richard, could not agree more.  When I have the funds to get my 105mm chipped I will be sending my 50mm f/1.2 along to be getting f/2.4'd.  I wish it had f/22 as well.

I'm quite sure it would be easy on most lenses that only go to f/16 to create the f/22 stop, it's a matter of trimming the stop inside the Aperture ring and cutting a slot - But diffraction has a huge impact on sharpness already from f/11 so IMHO it would not make sense to do it.
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: richardHaw on February 24, 2016, 09:59:46
These 'slots' for 1/3 or 1/2 aperture stops are very easy to ad to the aperture ring.

gonna grind those slots when the warranty for this lens is gone  :o :o :o

i bought mine new because Nikon is selling them new here cheaper than used ones in the market  ::)
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on February 24, 2016, 10:12:09
That's good news.  We'll see how Bjørn's holds up.

Erik's ingenious solution removes the delicate and fragile character of the Dandelion. The modified lens has survived many field ordeals without any issues, so longevity is assured it seems. Only in the highly unlikely case of the epoxy breaking up, or one of the pins wear down, might it fail. 
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Birna Rørslett on February 12, 2019, 15:24:23
Erik's ingenious solution removes the delicate and fragile character of the Dandelion. The modified lens has survived many field ordeals without any issues, so longevity is assured it seems. Only in the highly unlikely case of the epoxy breaking up, or one of the pins wear down, might it fail.

Ooops - actually the latter scenario manifested itself. One of the dandelion pins jammed and then ripped everything out with it. Erik being my big hero kept the lens for a rainy day and silently fixed it so surprised me with a "new" 50/1.2 on our next meet-up. That's what I call a friendly gesture :D
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Macro_Cosmos on March 29, 2019, 12:57:36
I'm wondering if it is possible to chip my Thorlabs SM2-F-mount adapter with one of these to display stuff like "Mitutoyo M Plan 10x Apo NA/0.28", would the text be too long? I have the 5x, 10x and 20x objectives.
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Birna Rørslett on March 29, 2019, 13:45:43
I identify my Mitutoyo objectives by the equivalent focal length and aperture (CPU chip), then my database software does a table look-up to fetch the complete text which then is inserted in the image record. The EXIF only stores a pointer not the full text.
Title: Re: Butchering a Noct-Nikkor 58 mm f/1.2 AI
Post by: Erik Lund on March 29, 2019, 14:15:40
For close up work extension tubes use a short contact block to avoid mechanical vignetting. The long blocks can 'dip down' into the image.