Author Topic: SHOWDOWN: Nikkor 400mm f/2.8E FL ED vs. 600mm f/4E FL ED  (Read 22198 times)

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: SHOWDOWN: Nikkor 400mm f/2.8E FL ED vs. 600mm f/4E FL ED
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2018, 22:05:34 »
In my experience the "E" aperture can fail to operate correctly in extremely cold conditions after prolonged exposure to low temperatures and high humidity (this happened using multiple lenses and cameras over the years, what was common was the lenses were "E").

I don't think the 400/2.8 will be satisfactory or cost-efficient for someone who really needs a 600/4. One should purchase the lens which allows most shots to be taken without TC, cost permitting.

JKoerner007

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Re: SHOWDOWN: Nikkor 400mm f/2.8E FL ED vs. 600mm f/4E FL ED
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2018, 22:22:24 »
Don't put too much emphasis on test results such as these, even if the tests are accurate, there is no point in buying the wrong lens because it is sharper. For example the Otus 85 might be even sharper, but you wouldn't buy it for your purposes. If you mostly need 600mm, the 600 FL is surely a better option than 400 + TCs.

400 is a lot closer to where I want to be than 85 :)



Remember, most of these tests are done using a single sample of each lens, maybe they tested a good example of the 400 FL against a bad example of the 600 FL (at this level, QC is very high and I expect sample variation to be minor, but it is still possible one lens has been knocked and put slightly out of alignment). Other test sites could easily give different results. The only place which tests multiple copies of lenses is LensRentals, and they can't test lenses this long.

True.

Another consideration is competence at Imatesting. At least one source seems to be in left field compared to other values given at other sources ...

One thing for sure is, they're all super lenses capable of delivering wonderful results.



The Nikon MTF charts are outstanding for both lenses, they show the 600 FL is a bit sharper over most of the image but dropping off towards the corners, while the 400 FL is a tad less good but more consistent to the edges. For bird photography I wouldn't be concerned about edge sharpness since the images are usually part of the background and not in focus anyway. So going by that I would conclude the 600 FL is sharper! Going by the MTF charts, the 500FL is even better, see for yourself here: http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/lens/index.htm

Interesting. I also agree edge-to-edge sharpness isn't that big a deal when you're framing animals, as everything in the background/foreground is going to be a blur anyway.

In the end, I would give more credence to Nikon's own testing than that of anyone else.

Nikon is the entity with the engineers, and the resources, to design and make these lenses ... which carries far more weight as to 'levels of competence' than a blogger who bought an Imatest ;)



These sites usually test sharpness at only one distance, and as we know, some lenses are better at far distances and others better at close range. Do the tests above correspond to the distances you will usually shoot at? Impossible to say.

True.



I understand that you want to do your homework before making a big purchase, and it is useful to check these review sites but they can only say so much and you need to take their results with a grain of salt. It might be more useful for you to rent both lenses and get some hands-on experience with them. It might turn out that other factors might sway your decision one way or another.

Good advice.

One of the elements that sways me in favor of the 400 f/2.8E is the fact that most (who have shot both) rate the 400 is sharper, and stellar wide-open, placing it at a level above other FL ED lenses.

Still, everyone with experience seems to favor the 600 f/4 (which would be ~900mm bare on my D500).

They're both about the same price (only ~1,000 difference), and about the same weight, so the money/weight isn't really the issue.

I tend to favor lenses that are fast wide-open ... but I do want the reach :-\

bobfriedman

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Re: SHOWDOWN: Nikkor 400mm f/2.8E FL ED vs. 600mm f/4E FL ED
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2018, 22:35:05 »
In my experience the "E" aperture can fail to operate correctly in extremely cold conditions after prolonged exposure to low temperatures and high humidity (this happened using multiple lenses and cameras over the years, what was common was the lenses were "E").

my experience is opposite yours with my 5 years worth of 600/4G in frigid temperatures ( less than 20degF/-6.7degC) compounded by working that mechanical linkage at 12fps - of course it used to be 10fps with the D4, 5 years ago.. at least i have not seen a problem with my 600FL yet.. could happen.. but i will keep my contacts clean and hope for the best!
Robert L Friedman, Massachusetts, USA
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bobfriedman

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Re: SHOWDOWN: Nikkor 400mm f/2.8E FL ED vs. 600mm f/4E FL ED
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2018, 22:37:56 »
by the way... the 400/2.8FL might very well be sharper than the 600/4FL but if you have to crop to frame the shot then you are losing pixels on target.. as i have said, if your application calls for a 400/2.8FL then that is clearly the best choice
Robert L Friedman, Massachusetts, USA
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JKoerner007

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Re: SHOWDOWN: Nikkor 400mm f/2.8E FL ED vs. 600mm f/4E FL ED
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2018, 22:51:37 »
by the way... the 400/2.8FL might very well be sharper than the 600/4FL but if you have to crop to frame the shot then you are losing pixels on target.. as i have said, if your application calls for a 400/2.8FL then that is clearly the best choice

That works both ways :)

A D5 (1x) with a 600mm = 600mm
A D500 (1.5x) with a 400mm = ~ 600mm (i.e., approximately the same framing).

If I shot a bare D5, like you, I would be more likely to get a 600mm (in fact, I am positive I would).

However, with the D500, I will enjoy the same framing as you with a bare 400mm as you would get with a 600mm.

If the 400mm really is significantly sharper @ f/4, then I can add a 1.4x TC to the 400mm/D500 combo and enjoy an effective 840mm f/4 framing.

Since I know you don't like to use TCs, this means if you need to crop-in from a bare 600mm/D5 combo to get the same 800mm framing that a D500 + 400mm + 1.4x TC combo will get, there will actually be less pixels from the D5/600 combo on the subject that the above D500/400mm/1.4 combo will produce.

bobfriedman

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Re: SHOWDOWN: Nikkor 400mm f/2.8E FL ED vs. 600mm f/4E FL ED
« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2018, 23:00:43 »
i will also be using the D850 with the 600FL shortly after i get it focus-tuned to the 6.. so my 1.5 crop is still about the same resolution as the D5 albeit with lower ISO performance and 9FPS

the high ISO performance of the D5 is worth considering as a significant discriminator
Robert L Friedman, Massachusetts, USA
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JKoerner007

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Re: SHOWDOWN: Nikkor 400mm f/2.8E FL ED vs. 600mm f/4E FL ED
« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2018, 23:31:30 »
i will also be using the D850 with the 600FL shortly after i get it focus-tuned to the 6.. so my 1.5 crop is still about the same resolution as the D5 albeit with lower ISO performance and 9FPS

the high ISO performance of the D5 is worth considering as a significant discriminator

There are some threads in other forums showing multiple D500/D850-crop comparisons, which (to my eyes) are indistinguishable.

However, everyone concedes the D500's AF acqusition and buffer are more reliable than the D850s (but not quite up to the. D5).

Your point is well taken on the D5's high-ISO supremacy, but here again the 2-stop advantage of the 400mm f/2.8, plus equal-framing of the D500 help.

A D500 1.5 crop, plus the f/2.8 of the 400mm will create a better low-light 600mm framing than a D850 and a 600mm f/4, since the D850 doesn't  have the same high-ISo sensor advantage as the D5.

bobfriedman

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Re: SHOWDOWN: Nikkor 400mm f/2.8E FL ED vs. 600mm f/4E FL ED
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2018, 23:50:09 »
off topic but you "might" be able to do this with D500

Nikon D5 ,Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 600mm f/4E FL ED VR
1/2000s f/8.0 at 600.0mm iso1250


and the shot just before to show it was a landing and not a "take-off"

Nikon D5 ,Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 600mm f/4E FL ED VR
1/2000s f/8.0 at 600.0mm iso1250
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MFloyd

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Re: SHOWDOWN: Nikkor 400mm f/2.8E FL ED vs. 600mm f/4E FL ED
« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2018, 00:32:09 »
Herewith a picture of the D4s with the Nikkor 400mm f/2.8 VR (old version) and a TC20-E III



picture with same combo, but without TC



I borrowed the lens from Nikon Switzerland. They had a stand on the AIR14 airshow.
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bobfriedman

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Re: SHOWDOWN: Nikkor 400mm f/2.8E FL ED vs. 600mm f/4E FL ED
« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2018, 00:46:02 »
i am not much on doublers since i feel that i have to sharpen the result.. case in point.

Nikon D4 ,Nikkor AF-S 600mm f/4G ED VR
1/2000s f/10.0 at 1200.0mm iso2500
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JKoerner007

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Re: SHOWDOWN: Nikkor 400mm f/2.8E FL ED vs. 600mm f/4E FL ED
« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2018, 01:20:52 »
off topic but you "might" be able to do this with D500

Nikon D5 ,Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 600mm f/4E FL ED VR
1/2000s f/8.0 at 600.0mm iso1250


and the shot just before to show it was a landing and not a "take-off"

Nikon D5 ,Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 600mm f/4E FL ED VR
1/2000s f/8.0 at 600.0mm iso1250


Nice!!

JKoerner007

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Re: SHOWDOWN: Nikkor 400mm f/2.8E FL ED vs. 600mm f/4E FL ED
« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2018, 01:24:04 »
i am not much on doublers since i feel that i have to sharpen the result.. case in point.

Nikon D4 ,Nikkor AF-S 600mm f/4G ED VR
1/2000s f/10.0 at 1200.0mm iso2500


I get that "fractured ice" look with many of mine, but some also come out really nice and natural looking with a 2x on, case in point:


JKoerner007

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Re: SHOWDOWN: Nikkor 400mm f/2.8E FL ED vs. 600mm f/4E FL ED
« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2018, 01:26:09 »
Herewith a picture of the D4s with the Nikkor 400mm f/2.8 VR (old version) and a TC20-E III

How do you like the older compared to the new FL ED?

MFloyd

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Re: SHOWDOWN: Nikkor 400mm f/2.8E FL ED vs. 600mm f/4E FL ED
« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2018, 01:33:45 »
How do you like the older compared to the new FL ED?

The only 400mm f/2.8 I had the chance to shoot with was the older one. I guess the new one should be better and lighter, but never had a chance to shoot with one. And the old one was already outstanding.
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MILLIREHM

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Re: SHOWDOWN: Nikkor 400mm f/2.8E FL ED vs. 600mm f/4E FL ED
« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2018, 09:51:38 »
i will also be using the D850 with the 600FL shortly after i get it focus-tuned to the 6.. so my 1.5 crop is still about the same resolution as the D5 albeit with lower ISO performance and 9FPS


That will be the next thing to find out for me. In the past the D800E replaced the D300 by proving its supremacy. I dont expect the same result as the D500 has some significant advantages but the D850 adds additional options.
Wolfgang Rehm